I am more than 90% certain that all poker rooms are rigged

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So if it isn't cards that are rigged you lost because of cheating shills. I think you have the right idea to quit poker. Good luck in your next journey.

Seems to me people are bashing the RTG software lately for being tight all over the place, and casinoes throwing money at you all the time. I would be surprised if the isnt something going on, and if on the slots on poker aswell since it's basically the same games/system controlling everything. It's just like on slots after great wins the whole casino - including all games, get's sucky sucky!

Oh well, well never agree before we have some great stats to show for... Time will come! :)
 
I think you miss the point that affiliates on MGR plans with poker rooms are not paid on how much a poker player loses, they are paid on a % of rake. It would actually be to the affiliate's benefit for their players to win because winning players will almost always generate more rake then losers. It likely takes 20 or so casual players to generate the same rake in a month that a full time pro generates.
 
Thodoris...

You have convinced yourself that there are conspiracies upon conspiracies working against you. You absolutely refuse to even consider the possibility that you may not be the expert player you believe you are, and there is no argument that will convince you otherwise. Your arguments are fractious and based on ego instead of logic. Being wordy and repeating things ad nauseum is not compelling proof.

Besides all else, I also questioned you all that it is a bit strange that an affliate who takes 30% of the profits made by the pokeroom of a casino can also be a poker player to that casino. It is like having the casino also as a player.
Now this is just plain stupid. You seem to believe that being an affiliate predisposes the pokerroom to show an advantage to me as a player, thereby making me want to promote the room all the more, thereby bringing in even more players for me to make your mythical 30%. Let me put that to rest once and for all. I am...at my very best...an almost sickeningly average player. If the pokerrom was going to show me favoritism, I'd be winning left and right. I do not. If I promoted the rooms based on how much money I win playing...I wouldn't be promoting any of them.

For once and for all...no one is out to get you. You are losing because you play a rigid and anally retentive strategy. You play with no room for the variables that come with playing against human beings. If an average player like myself can see that, why can't you, Brain Trust?

I'm out..you can't debate teflon.
 
I was going to try to aswer all of these conspiracy theories, but they are so rambling and incoherent, that I dont see the point. I think the OP may be suffering from a manic episode, with his rambling and incoherent posts followed by self-satisfaction that they have proved their point beyond a doubt.

However, if the OP really wants someone to analyze what is going on when he plays, why not just post complete hand histories. This way, everyone else can analyze his play and see if his argument has any merit.
 
Ok I am an affiliate for some sites that I play at. I dont receive a percentage on my own rake. It is against their Terms.

When I do play, I can assure you I get some terrible beats like everyone else. Poker is just like that.

As for the shills argument, sure there will be. I dont see that as cheating. If they offer a player rake free play to boost the numbers at the tables or get a new table, fine. If these players are top pro's and are kicking my ass, I have the option to up and leave the table

Yes I would be a little uncomfortable if a few employees where sitting at a table with me looking at each others screens. Yes that could be a possibilty but it is easily detectable. Ive had my suspicions with certain players. I just collected my chips and left the table. This does not have to be employees of the site, It could be anyone. I will assume that employees have more to do with their time than scam a few dollars off the players but im not saying it definately doesnt happen but I will say you must be very unlucky to catch them amongst thousands of players every time you log on.

As for seeing hole cards

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

This shows how it is done. Now for a site to be able to see the hole cards they need to instal the software on someones PC. it would be easy enough to do but again it would be easy enough for a programmer or watchdog group to detect, so I dont consider that a possibility either.

As for getting crazy rake generating beats. These beats affect everyone. The best way for a site to increase revenue/rake is to keep the players playing, make the game very predictable. This allows the house to slowly collect the rake from all players. A $10k hand only generates $3 rake - A $100 hand creates $3 rake. The $10k hand will probably bust a couple of players, whereas the $100 hands will keep them in the game only to pay the site $3 a hand.

I am not saying there are not some underhand tactics at some poker sites but I would say your statistical argument is a little flawed
 
As for the shills argument, sure there will be. I dont see that as cheating. If they offer a player rake free play to boost the numbers at the tables or get a new table, fine.

These are props. Almost all poker rooms use props. Props play with their own money and simply get their rake back or some other compensation.

Shills are house players that play with house money and simply fold virtually every hand. Both help to start games.
 
And I am certain only 10% of online poker players are long term winning players, so it is not as easy as you seems to have the impression of.
And I am 100% certain most pokersites are not rigged - I have full confidence in all the big software providers, but if you decide to play
at some Russian site with unknown software, well...

And unless you drastically changes you view of poker and your playstyle, you will never be a winning player - even at a non-rigged site.

1) First of all you have obviously not read any serious books about poker.
Start reading (and understanding) 5-10 books mostly from twoplustwo. Mix
strategy (NL/FL), poker psychology and general poker books.

2) Learn the general HU match probabilites. (Ie. AKs wins 67% vs. 32o) and all draw probabilites (ie. flush draw over 1 card, 2 cards etc.) + learn pot odds and implied odds.

3) Use Pokertracker or PokerOffice etc. After each session analyze the hands with the biggest pots (winning+loosing pots) and see if you did anything wrong.

4) And in NL it is very important so also know your opponents, are you watching them and making notes on them?

5) Never tilt. Learn to deal with the bad days that all poker players have, so it also does not ruin your private life. Also never go up in limit and give it lose it all fast. Learn how to manage your poker bankroll.

When you have done all this, start at the 20$NL and see if you can consistently win at this limit. If you are a winner over 25K hands, you can move up to 50$ etc.

So how many of the steps I described did you follow?

Zoozie
 
And I am certain only 10% of online poker players are long term winning players, so it is not as easy as you seems to have the impression of.

Of course it would be a small percentage, otherwise who's money were the good players going to take? (if of course the casinos let some players win constantly without cheating them).

I have already commented about this 100% certainty of you people that large, reputable casinos never cheat. I don't want to say the names of the 3 rooms I think I was cheated, but they are very large casinos and I think they are considered reputable. I dont want to say the names because I think casinomeinster does not allow this, and anyway, if these 3 casinos cheated me, I think all big casinos do, except, pehaps, very-very few exceptions.

Yes, I have done all the playing advice you say, with even less money than 20$.

No, I havent use Pokertracker, as casinos could cheat me rarely enough for not leaving any statistical evidence, but enough to eliminate and exceed the small edge I could have after the rake. If one has a 3% edge after the rake, then a cheating of 3 times out of 100 cannot be prooven statistically.

I am not going to spend more money to test the honesty of pokerooms. Perhaps when and if I will be rich, I will experiment again at the very low limit tables. Neverthelss, in the meantime, I might play (more to test them than to win) some bonuses which bring down the rake below 4% (below 3% if possible). I am reading pokeraddict's page to find a bonus which brings down the rake below 3%. But I don't trust online poker anymore and I doubt if I play again even if the rake was zero.

I am telling you that I leave a 10% probability that I was not cheated and simply it was variance and bad play. But you are trying to convince me that I should give 100% probability that I was not cheated. I find this amusing! Sorry, but I would be an idiot if I give less than 50% probability considering all the things I observed and all other considerations I previously analyzed.

And when I continued playing, I was playing while knowing that the probability that they cheat is 90%. But I invested in this 10% probability, as if this 10% was the case, and I am as good player as I think I am (and anyway I could improove), then I would head up towards infinite profit, as anyone who has an edge in any game and knows money management and risk of ruin probabilities as I do.

I am not trying to impress you with my knowledge and capability of analysis.
It is not my purpose to earn admiration. What I am trying to do is to humbly reveal some of my knowdege in order to simply produce evidence for my arguments, to warn naive players, to give out knowledge and perhaps gain some knowdedge form some people. But if I dont reveal e.g. to a mathematician that I know mathematics, how would I expect him to reveal something unknown to me? He would not discuss mathematics with a monkey.

I do not want to discuss any more if pokerooms are cheating or not, as I think the matter is exhausted, as it cannot be prooven with a more than 95% certainty that they cheat or that they do not cheat.

And as some of you disallowed me to start a new thread, you do not allow me to discuss other topics which might interest you and your pocket.
 
it cannot be proven with a more than 95% certainty that they cheat or that they do not cheat.
You hit the nail on the head with that statement.

For some reason this reminds me of those who believe in ghosts vs. those who do not. People from both sides of the issue have already made up their minds about it and will never see eye-to-eye on it, unless they experience something really weird.

In the same way that something "really weird" could be described as supernatural, it could also be described as a natural phenomenon. Likewise, strange bad beats in online poker could be described as being rigged, but could also naturally be that 1 in 100,000 chance - and both sides will never know or agree upon the true cause.
 
I am not trying to impress you with my knowledge and capability of analysis.
Good, because you didn't even come close to impressing me, as a matter of fact my thought process was going the other direction from "impressed".

@ThodorisK

Your logic is about as flawed as I have ever seen.

If one has a 3% edge after the rake, then a cheating of 3 times out of 100 cannot be prooven statistically.
it sure can, you math genius you, we are not talking about one hundred hands, we are talking about 100's of thousands, even millions of hands (in case you forgot your not the only person playing).

Your ideas about Affiliates are also so wrong, so juvenile, reading them has made me laugh really hard. (and I feel like shit... I'm sick)

ThodorisK from one Poker Affiliate (Thats me:D) directly to you...

"STOP PLAYING POKER!"

No one likes a whiny poker loser... ;)
 
Yesterday I tried the first deposit bonus at a well known pokeroom and casino. It is also accredited in casinomeister. I dont know how many hands I played, as when I tried to check out my hand history, it was almost unreadable. However judging from the promotion points I earned, and considering I played at 0.15-0.30$ no limit, I guess I played about 120 hands in which I placed bets in the pot: Again the same story of ripoff.

Now, it was a mistake of mine that as an evidence of cheating, I had ended up into observing the number of how many of my strong hands win, over the number of how many of them lose. As I saw yesterday, and remembered from all my play in the other casinos, I had quite a few very strong flop hands in which everybody else folded even at preflop, but I lost almost all of my money when I was holding a three of a kind and a flush, but the other ONE opponent got something better. Examples, I had Q8diamonds, I got the flush with the ace of diamonds on the table, but the other one had the king of diamonds (everyone else had folded at the preflop I think). Another case: I had three of a kind, but the other one had a straight on the turn. Another case: I had three of the kind but the other one had a flush at the river with only three of the same suit on the table (and he betted big even at the flop) Another case: I had ace king, I flopped a king, but the other having KJ got a J at the turn and made two pairs. Many more same cases happened, in less than 120 hands that I followed betting or initiated betting at the flop. Oh, I had two full houses and other strong hands and everyone folded, even at preflop.

So they let your strong hands win quite a few times, so that their statistics seem ok, but you win nothing on them. This way, you cannot prove that you were cheated, as one can claim that you just win small when you win and lose big when you lose, and so you lost only because you are a crap player. But I bet my life that the best poker player of the world would had lost if played in my place.

Threes of the kind, staights and flushes, two pairs, and even top pairs at the flop coming from the best 20% of preflop cards, are bound to produce profit, instead of big losses, even in a low sample of 100 draws, no matter how bad player one is. Because EVEN the 20% of the preflop hands have a very high expected value WHEN PLAYED BY AN AVERAGE PLAYER (see Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) ). Imagine then how high the expected value is, of these preflop hands (WHEN PLAYED BY AN AVERAGE PLAYER) when they succeed in getting a top pair (or even better, e.g. three of a kind) at the flop.
The expected value then is so high, that the variance of poker cannot be the reason for losing a very large bankroll playing with pennies. I have played thousands of hands in other casinos. It cannot happen only to me that I have strong hands when the others have stronger. Sometimes at least, it must also happen to others that they have strong hands when I have stronger. But it almost never happens to another, whereas it almost always happens to me.

And the losses because of the rake and the post blinds were negligible compared to that of crushing of my very strong hands.

Perhaps I will purchase Pokertracker and let the casinos know this before I play again. Perhaps if I warn them beforehand that I am ready to post or give out everywhere the results of my play, will make them think twice before they cheat me again. And if they do cheat me, I am prepared to lose some money to ruin their reputation by giving out the results. I am checking now to see if the analysis of pokertracker is in anyway cabaple of finding the type of cheating I met.

Some members rushed quickly to give me bad reputation points giving various reasons, but they are affiliates trying to close my mouth. I dont think the rest of the 800 people reading my thread were annoyed by my writings. They also try to degrade my arguments, but my arguments are not directed to stupid people. And clever people will suspect the intention of these members.
 
ThodorisK your a bad poker player...

STOP PLAYING POKER

or take some time and learn the game...

Your going to continue to lose money at any Poker room you play at, even the land based poker rooms.... Because you obviously don't understand the game of Poker, so just stop playing or at the very least stop whining about losing...

As I said before, No one likes a whiny Poker Loser.

I got news for you, bad poker players are going to lose most every hand, just like ThodorisK said he did... even when they flop monsters...

You know I can't even count how many times I have lost a hand when I had Pocket Bullets or Kings...... BECAUSE I PLAYED THEM WRONG, not because the game was cheating me.

ThodorisK as long as you continue to put forth your unsubstantiated stories about 'cheating' your going to continue to get bad Rep points here.... Because the people in this forum are really not stupid and a lot of the people here do play Poker all the time and a several of the people around here play poker for a living... Which would be impossible to do if the poker rooms were cheating players...

In poker, the best hand does not always win, but whoever played the hand best, always wins...

So wise up and learn the game or provide some "proof" of cheating...
or shut the fuck up.
 
...Some members rushed quickly to give me bad reputation points giving various reasons, but they are affiliates trying to close my mouth. I dont think the rest of the 800 people reading my thread were annoyed by my writings. They also try to degrade my arguments, but my arguments are not directed to stupid people. And clever people will suspect the intention of these members.
For the record, ThodorisK received bad rep points from two members - I would have counted three, but one member hasn't been here long enough so his "rep power" is zero.

Two of these people are webmasters - one is an affiliate. Please don't confuse webmasters with affiliates. The first bad rep you received was for making two near identical threads instead of one, so it had nothing to do with the content.

So to say that affiliates are trying to close your mouth is pretty much far from the truth. If you want your points back, you can always start making posts that people find helpful or constructive. A simple "thanks" is worth five points. Three of these would get you out of the hole.
 
Yesterday I tried the first deposit bonus at a well known pokeroom and casino. It is also accredited in casinomeister. I dont know how many hands I played, as when I tried to check out my hand history, it was almost unreadable. However judging from the promotion points I earned, and considering I played at 0.15-0.30$ no limit, I guess I played about 120 hands in which I placed bets in the pot: Again the same story of ripoff.

Now, it was a mistake of mine that as an evidence of cheating, I had ended up into observing the number of how many of my strong hands win, over the number of how many of them lose. As I saw yesterday, and remembered from all my play in the other casinos, I had quite a few very strong flop hands in which everybody else folded even at preflop, but I lost almost all of my money when I was holding a three of a kind and a flush, but the other ONE opponent got something better. Examples, I had Q8diamonds, I got the flush with the ace of diamonds on the table, but the other one had the king of diamonds (everyone else had folded at the preflop I think). Another case: I had three of a kind, but the other one had a straight on the turn. Another case: I had three of the kind but the other one had a flush at the river with only three of the same suit on the table (and he betted big even at the flop) Another case: I had ace king, I flopped a king, but the other having KJ got a J at the turn and made two pairs. Many more same cases happened, in less than 120 hands that I followed betting or initiated betting at the flop. Oh, I had two full houses and other strong hands and everyone folded, even at preflop.

So they let your strong hands win quite a few times, so that their statistics seem ok, but you win nothing on them. This way, you cannot prove that you were cheated, as one can claim that you just win small when you win and lose big when you lose, and so you lost only because you are a crap player. But I bet my life that the best poker player of the world would had lost if played in my place.

Threes of the kind, staights and flushes, two pairs, and even top pairs at the flop coming from the best 20% of preflop cards, are bound to produce profit, instead of big losses, even in a low sample of 100 draws, no matter how bad player one is. Because EVEN the 20% of the preflop hands have a very high expected value WHEN PLAYED BY AN AVERAGE PLAYER (see Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) ). Imagine then how high the expected value is, of these preflop hands (WHEN PLAYED BY AN AVERAGE PLAYER) when they succeed in getting a top pair (or even better, e.g. three of a kind) at the flop.
The expected value then is so high, that the variance of poker cannot be the reason for losing a very large bankroll playing with pennies. I have played thousands of hands in other casinos. It cannot happen only to me that I have strong hands when the others have stronger. Sometimes at least, it must also happen to others that they have strong hands when I have stronger. But it almost never happens to another, whereas it almost always happens to me.

And the losses because of the rake and the post blinds were negligible compared to that of crushing of my very strong hands.

Perhaps I will purchase Pokertracker and let the casinos know this before I play again. Perhaps if I warn them beforehand that I am ready to post or give out everywhere the results of my play, will make them think twice before they cheat me again. And if they do cheat me, I am prepared to lose some money to ruin their reputation by giving out the results. I am checking now to see if the analysis of pokertracker is in anyway cabaple of finding the type of cheating I met.

Some members rushed quickly to give me bad reputation points giving various reasons, but they are affiliates trying to close my mouth. I dont think the rest of the 800 people reading my thread were annoyed by my writings. They also try to degrade my arguments, but my arguments are not directed to stupid people. And clever people will suspect the intention of these members.

You fail to understand bankroll management.

Stronger hands do have the potential to bust a player if they do not have sufficient funds to cover these losses. Theory, they are more difficult to fold even when the other players betting suggests they have caught a deceptive hand.

Your theory contradicts another popular myth - that short stacks always get the lucky beats to keep the rake flowing.

I never dropped youre reputation points although I do disagree with your point
of view.

In the long run the strength of betting will dictate how likely a strong hand will lose.

Do you allow other players a cheap flop?

Do you allow players the chance of a flush draw?

Do you bet too weakly?

Maybe just bet your hands out a little stronger. Who cares if you win the pot there and then? You will encounter less bad beats. With a little more experience you will learn how to get the most profit from a given hand.

I suggest you use your stats experience and use that to push out drawing hands, Ie if they call your raise, they have made a mistake. Just keep playing that way and you will win more often with these stronger hands
 
Examples, I had Q8diamonds, I got the flush with the ace of diamonds on the table, but the other one had the king of diamonds (everyone else had folded at the preflop I think).

not exactly a rare occurrence

Another case: I had three of a kind, but the other one had a straight on the turn.

again..not exactly a rare occurrence

Another case: I had three of the kind but the other one had a flush at the river with only three of the same suit on the table (and he betted big even at the flop)

guess what... not exactly a rare occurrence

Another case: I had ace king, I flopped a king, but the other having KJ got a J at the turn and made two pairs.

can you guess what i think here....

Many more same cases happened, in less than 120 hands that I followed betting or initiated betting at the flop. Oh, I had two full houses and other strong hands and everyone folded, even at preflop.

.

This is not unusual in 120 hands of poker, 120 hands of poker where you are actually seeing flops is quite a bit play, and if these are the only bad beats you got then i would say you were probably on the better side of variance.
The best hand in poker doesnt always win !

WAYLANDER
 
120 hands where I initiated or followed bets at the flop. But this happened just yesterday, I have played thousands such hands with the same happening, at William Hill, Sportingbet, 888.com, and the 120 hands were form Interpoker.
 
I played for 9 hours in Deadwood yesterday as there are tons of bikers in town for Sturgis. I lost AA that made a set twice and KK twice. The hands that beat me were all garbage. Should I blame the dealer? Was he dealing from the bottom? Was he friends with the drunken biker that beat me? Was the house in on it to generate more rake?

STOP GAMBLING!

BTW A 120 hand sample is useless.
 
120 hands where I initiated or followed bets at the flop. But this happened just yesterday, I have played thousands such hands with the same happening, at William Hill, Sportingbet, 888.com, and the 120 hands were form Interpoker.

If you have documentation of every hand out of these "thousands", let's see it.

Talk is cheap, let's see your "proof".
 
Yes, I have tried it all: slowplaying, agressive, and mixture of slowplaying and aggressive, using each of the 3 different strategies for thousands of hands, exactly in order to test the results. The results were that the more I wagered, the quicker i was losing.

Think of this: Suppose the management did indeed cheat, either manually or with the appropriate software. What would be the indications of this cheating? I keep seeing these indications to the maximum degree for thousands of hands. If all the indications are happening to the maximum degree and still cheating cannot be proven, then it never will, unless we hear confessions from inside the management.

One more strange indication:Yesterday, when I was playing in 3 tables, there were all full (6 players in each). After I left, 3 more players left immediatelly from each one of these 3 tables! This was another terrifying ... coincedence.

What can I say! Arent they scared that if their cheating is ever revealed they are going to lose all customers? Perhaps they know that people will still be playing even if they hear it every day on the TV news that all pokerooms cheat, and want to gamble even when knowing they are cheated.
 
5 cards make up a hand. throw all the stats out the window. i love on t v when they have the statistical advantage displayed preflop. useless!! i love the morons who think the hole cards determine the hand. they dont. thod, i am not knocking you personally but you definitly have some homework to do. play at a live tourney. you might play 5 pots an hour excluding blinds. it's not like t v when they just show the best hands. some like to call everything but those are the guys who get smoked when garbage flops. play your big hole cards correctly, dont look to bust everyone with big hands, dont chase, and fold everything else and your game will improve. the disipline is being able to fold a good hand now and then. many atournament lost cause someone didnt want to lay down pocket q's. pride in poker kills!
 
Yes, I have tried it all: slowplaying, agressive, and mixture of slowplaying and aggressive, using each of the 3 different strategies for thousands of hands, exactly in order to test the results. The results were that the more I wagered, the quicker i was losing.

Think of this: Suppose the management did indeed cheat, either manually or with the appropriate software. What would be the indications of this cheating? I keep seeing these indications to the maximum degree for thousands of hands. If all the indications are happening to the maximum degree and still cheating cannot be proven, then it never will, unless we hear confessions from inside the management.

One more strange indication:Yesterday, when I was playing in 3 tables, there were all full (6 players in each). After I left, 3 more players left immediatelly from each one of these 3 tables! This was another terrifying ... coincedence.

What can I say! Arent they scared that if their cheating is ever revealed they are going to lose all customers? Perhaps they know that people will still be playing even if they hear it every day on the TV news that all pokerooms cheat, and want to gamble even when knowing they are cheated.


You're boring me. Until you provide DETAILED PLAY LOGS, I'm not listening to another word you have to say. You're like a broken record.

If I was playing at the table(s) you were at, and you left, I'd leave too. Why? The ATM machine has left the building :)
 
Doing a search "do online casinos cheat", I came up to is funny one:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Its amusing how naive is this millionaire gambler, and even more amusing are the reassurements and 100% certainty form the other posters that he has not cheated.
How many of you would keep betting 1000pounds=2000$ on every single hand, trusting that much any online casino?
I have doubts even if Pirate really did won that million $, or if it was a promotional trick. Yes, I know, it could be that he found a small degree of unrandomness in the randomness of the outcomes of the "random number ganerator". Yes, but even if he did find such a bias, what I find hard to believe is that Hamptons did not have the ability to cheat him. Or did the casinos start cheating at blackjack after many such pirates discovered such a bias and were winning persistently? Even this case is possible! I observed that RealTimeGaming casinos have a minimum bet of 5$ at blackjack. Was it always 5$, or it used to be 1$?
 
Please do us all a favor and quit gambling online. :)

I can see it now - you're going to end up at 90yo still trying to prove that online casinos are rigged - but are still playing at them the whole time.

You continue to post what in your mind you view as proof, but when you're asked to show evidence (logs), you ignore the post altogether. Why?
 
so I have the nuts high & low at omaha8 on the turn...... A while back so I can remember the exact hand.... a guess

A6 Hearts & 2 q

flop 58 hearts & 9diamonds

enough to push after the flop but not with any conviction.

turn card 2 hearts.

4 still in the pot and the betting is wild.

I may as well go all in. I have the hi & low nuts & im expecting to get called.

We all end up all in.

1) me - A 6 hearts 2 q
2) player 2 - 88 34
3) Player 3 - 55 10 j
4) player 4 - 34 67


Note # no-one else was suited. Everyone is all-in.

River card - 2 spades

How did I fair?
 
The moral of the story is that I was unlucky. Ive hit as bad at holdem but ive also done the same to others so it tends to even out in the long run. Dam right I was pissed off. End of the night, about to collect a 2.5k pot, only to end my night on a losing session.

Th, save $500 into a 50c-$1 session. Play as tight as hell, try to collect big on one or two hands an hour. Do that for a month, then come back and tell me its rigged. The above hand shows a bad beat & how easy it is to get wiped out. These hands do happen all the times, there are a lot of hands in between that help ease the blow.

I gave you a situation where I felt the best option was to push all in. Your q-8 flush, although good is not guaranteed to be the best hand on the board. Mine was at the time. These things just happen.

If you want to flip a coin, its a 50% chance of heads or tails but I would bet against 5 heads/ 5 tails out of 10 spins. That is a pure luck game but the stats might never balance off .

Spin a roulette wheell, the last 10 numbers have been red, its no more likely to be black that red on the next spin.

Poker has an element of skill. Although the game has a lot of luck involved, the better player is more likely to win during a session. I'll be happy to play you for an hour at heads up for play money & we can go over the stats here if you want. Im not the strongest player but I wont make too many mistakes. We can just flash our hole cards after the hand & that will end this stats theory once and for all.
 
I have been winning for 3 years at online poker now. Of course there are still some bad weeks with a negative, but I have never had a whole month in the negative. (I also only play low stakes. NL50$ as the highest). Also I have some friends doing the same, some in tournaments.

So why are some winning and others not?

I have also had some really bad beats. I have lost twice with 4oK etc (using two hole cards) to straight flush. (Shame I did not play on a bad beat jackpot table).

There also is a program:
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) .

Basically it, calculate equity during the streets and can then
tell if you generally say if you have been lucky or not. (Using hands seen at showdown)

Try this and see if you actually are as unlucky as you believe, you will see how many $ you will have more or less than expected.

It requires PokerTracker, and do get it if you really ever want to learn poker.

Zoozie
 
I will repeat my suspicion that these "pros" are affiliates who take commision of the money given to the rake by other players (the affliate helped into bringing these players to the casino).
Basically that means that such affiliates are something like casino share holders.

I just noticed that in your profile Pokeraddict, you are stating you are a "pro". And you say you are not an affliate, whereas you have the bonuswhores page! That type of page can only belong to an affiliate.
Perhaps not earning a percetage of the rake other players are gining to the rake, but a standard fee for every player registed to each casino through your page. You denied this. But I repeat the indications.

And I will repeat, what a strange coincedence I got bad reputation points from only 2-3 people out of 1,200, and you were one of them.

But let's suppose that all my suspicions are wrong. Lets start from another basis: Suppose that I am a crap poker player, and that was the reason of my losses, and not that I was cheated. As I said, I wish I could believe that I am a crap player, cause then I could hope I was not cheated. Variance, it could not be. I played thousands of hands with pennies.

So, supposing I was not cheated, but I am a crap player. I have a serious question for you: What is your edge as a player if there was zero rake? Higher than 5%? So your edge exceeds the 5% rake and you can make profits with a 5% rake? Yes, I know you play bonuses and rakebacks, but lets forget about them. I am asking your edge if there was zero rake, and no other promotions. Don't tell me that it depens on your opponents. I am talking about your average edge overall.

(for those who dont understand, edge is the $ of average profit for every 100$ wagered)

Someone claimed that there are no fishes anymore as they are used to be, so he breakes even having the 5% rake, against him, but he gets the bonus at the end and the bonus equals his profits.
So that player claims his edge as a player if there was no rake, is exactly 5%.

So, what about you pokeraddict? And what about all of you constant winners at poker? What is your edge supposing the rake was zero?
 
Oh, I forgot to mention, today I came 4th at a freeroll of 500-600 people and won 26$. Of course you can say that people dont play seriously in cheap freerolls. Indeed. But you can imagine how much I trust pokerooms that they dont cheat, that I prefer to play cheap freerolls. I repeat that I won the first prize of 500$ in a freeroll last christmas, beating 1027 people. That wasnt so cheap freeroll. That crap player I am. And I dont play freerolls that often. Hey, do you know any such good freerolls? (not with 2000 and 5000 players)
 
I will repeat my suspicion that these "pros" are affiliates who take commision of the money given to the rake by other players (the affliate helped into bringing these players to the casino).
Basically that means that such affiliates are something like casino share holders.

I just noticed that in your profile Pokeraddict, you are stating you are a "pro". And you say you are not an affliate, whereas you have the bonuswhores page! That type of page can only belong to an affiliate.
Perhaps not earning a percetage of the rake other players are gining to the rake, but a standard fee for every player registed to each casino through your page. You denied this. But I repeat the indications.

And I will repeat, what a strange coincedence I got bad reputation points from only 2-3 people out of 1,200, and you were one of them.

But let's suppose that all my suspicions are wrong. Lets start from another basis: Suppose that I am a crap poker player, and that was the reason of my losses, and not that I was cheated. As I said, I wish I could believe that I am a crap player, cause then I could hope I was not cheated. Variance, it could not be. I played thousands of hands with pennies.

So, supposing I was not cheated, but I am a crap player. I have a serious question for you: What is your edge as a player if there was zero rake? Higher than 5%? So your edge exceeds the 5% rake and you can make profits with a 5% rake? Yes, I know you play bonuses and rakebacks, but lets forget about them. I am asking your edge if there was zero rake, and no other promotions. Don't tell me that it depens on your opponents. I am talking about your average edge overall.

(for those who dont understand, edge is the $ of average profit for every 100$ wagered)

Someone claimed that there are no fishes anymore as they are used to be, so he breakes even having the 5% rake, against him, but he gets the bonus at the end and the bonus equals his profits.
So that player claims his edge as a player if there was no rake, is exactly 5%.

So, what about you pokeraddict? And what about all of you constant winners at poker? What is your edge supposing the rake was zero?

Just so everyone knows, Im the other one who gave you negative reputation (the one with zero rep power). I gave it to you because your posts are rambling, ill informed, and libelous to other posters and businesses. All of this is compounded by your astounding innumeracy, which annoys me to no end.
 
I just noticed that in your profile Pokeraddict, you are stating you are a "pro". And you say you are not an affliate, whereas you have the bonuswhores page!

*Sigh* If I was an affiliate don't you think somebody here would know it and out me? I've been a member here for 4+ years and likely in the top 20 in terms of number of posts. I don't own BW and have never owned any % of BW. I worked for them as support and marketing as a flat salary. That ended last year after about 6 months. I'm almost positive I've already mentioned this. If I owned it don't you think CM or somebody else would have outed me or is every poster here a part of the conspiracy? Also wouldn't I be a fool not to use the signature feature to help promote my site?

There is a huge difference in being a winning player and taking a meaningless amount of money out of a freeroll. BTW were the cards rigged in your favor because it was a freeroll? What about the other players? They must have been all bots right?

Your neg rep was given because you started an identical thread about some ridiculous childish rant. If you go to your user CP you will see that.

Why haven't you stopped gambling yet?
 
You commented on everything besides my question. Whats your edge against other players if the rake was zero? More than 5%? (anyway, I know you play with zero rake, or even less (!), but that is irrelevant to my question).
 
You commented on everything besides my question. Whats your edge against other players if the rake was zero? More than 5%? (anyway, I know you play with zero rake, or even less (!), but that is irrelevant to my question).

The rake at the limits I play is usually 2% or so. Combine this with 30-35% rakeback and an occasional bonus or comp and the rake is about 1%. Since I don't play often play tourneys I'm not sure how to figure out my ROI.

A big problem low limit players have is that the rake is usually 4-5% and the low limits don't clear bonuses fast. Also many don't know about rakeback or don't know how much it will help them. This is why a vast majority of low limit players lose.

A good example of the difference in rake is a 6 big bet pot in 10/20 has a 2.5% rake. A 6 big bet pot in $1/$2 will have a 4.1% rake. It does not sound like much but over time this really adds up. Also keep in mind the difference rakeback would have. B&M rake is even worse and on top of that there is often a jackpot $1 drop and also the dealer toke. Low limit B&M is even harder to beat then online for these reasons.

I also play mostly O8 and stud8 so the rake is even more of a factor in those games but the pots are almost always bigger then holdem for those games.

Although I strongly advise you stop gambling if you insist on doing it then you need to get Pokertracker to find the holes in your game and stop blaming poker rooms, affiliates and other players for your losses.
 
First of all I did not accuse affiliates for cheating in co-operation with the casinos, (only as an also possible case, lol). What I did was accusing the pros as affiliates, i.e. that they get their profits not from their poker play, but from commission of the rake taken from the other players. But enough of this theme, and this must be regarded irrelevate to the below:

Pokeraddicts last answer that he and the other pros make their profits while having only 1% rake to pay, is the best and only serious counter-argument against all my previous arguments: As since I made all these losses with a 5% rake on my back, (something which I made clear many times, from the right beginning of the thread) you could attribute my losses to this high rake of 5%. But it is I who brought this counter-argument to the surface, because I take both opposite sides of arguments, as anyone seeking objectively for the truth.

So, that is why I asked you if a pro player can win even with this 5% rake. Because:

1.) If it is almost impossible for a player to have a higher gross edge than 5%,
which could be e.g. 9% (because of his higher skill than other players) and thus have a net edge of 4% after this 5% rake, THEN why are you all blaming my poker skills for my losses, instead of saying that there was no cheating, but I simply lost because this 5% is unbeatable? Only one of you said this, the one who said that fishes are becoming fewer and less fishy, and he breaks even when he has a 5% rake against him, but he takes the bonus at the and as a profit.

2.) If, on the contrary, a good player can easily have a higher gross edge than 5% ,
which could be e.g. 9% (because of his higher skill than other players) and thus have a net edge of 4% after this 5% rake, THEN since you cannot know the level of my poker skill, how can you conclude that my skill differs THAT MUCH from this good player, and therefore that I lost because of my poor skill and not because of cheating? And if it doesnt differ that much, then I lost because of cheating! (as I explained before, it could not be variance).

Pokeraddict admitted that he cannot calculate his gross or net edge, and he only knows that he has an unknown to him net edge, which means that he has a gross edge that can be anything above the 1% which is the rake he pays. So, if you constant poker winners cannot calculate your gross edge, how can you answer the above complications? However, I thank Pokeraddict who finally answered something on the point of the matter and clarified this matter I had doubts about. I add him I thanks (if I do it correctly).

Therefore, whichever of the above two cases is the truth, your argument that I lost because of my poor skill is unreasonable.

I am expecting accurate answers.

My opinion is that (providing that there is no cheating) the gross edge of a simply conservative player can reach even above 15% (a net edge of 10%) in some poker rooms, especially at limit tables, where everyone (and always) bets not simply like a fish, but like nuts! And that is exactly the reason I suspect the management for cheating: Since the players there are soooo fishes, and they get constantly so lucky against my strong hands, then it is very probable that either:
A.) these super-fishes are the management or programs who take whatever cards they choose, and thus getting quickly the money of normal players, and at the same time they attract the existing and new players, exactly because of their super-fishness.
B.) or they are real fishes, but exactly because of this, the good players have a huge e.g. 10% net edge against them, and they are bound to end up with twice the profit of the rake makes. So the management has a tremendous motive to fix the cards in their favor against good players, in order to balance the wins and losses of all players, so that rake takes it all at the end (as I analysed in my previous posts).

I think these super-fishes do not exist in other sites, (at least that much). You can also check this at the players/flop stat of each pokeroom. That doesnt mean of course that these other sites do not cheat.
 
The rake in $20-$100 NL is right around 5% and there are many players beating those games. The rake at $.50/$1 and $1/2 limit is 4.5% or so on average and people beat those. At Party Poker I show a 5.63% $1/$2 6 max rake % and yet I still have a win rate of 7.9 BB/100. Granted I have not played there in over a year so I'm sure the game quality is worse but one could almost certainly make a living even playing $1/$2 6 max at Party Poker even today if they played 4 tables at a time.

IMO if you play NL and can't beat at $50-$100 NL game then you are not a winning player.
 
the few examples you have provided indicate that you are not an advanced poker player.

I really have to go along with that conclusion. Im not a pro player but I am fairly experienced. Long term I have been a winning player. Im on a bit of a losing streak at the moment. 5 Card draw has been good to me lately - holdem I have piss poor results as of late. I win the ocassional big tourney which gives me a boost.

I am an affiliate and dont give a dam who knows it or not. I collect a % of a players rake. I only encourage players to play at sites I myself am comfortable playing at.

Yes, there are many pro's parading as affiliates. They use their name to attract players & they also get a share of the rake. I fail to see where your problem lies.

An affiliate is just a marketer. The rake they collect from players they introduce are their fees. Websites offer information, it takes a lot of effort to gather the information. Players get free access to the site. If they want to skip the affiliate links, they can just go directly to the site & give the finger to the guy who has built the website. You wont get any additional benefits by going directly through the poker site. You are more likely to benefit by collecting an extra bonus by going through the affiliate site. The more people who sign up through the affiliate site, the more likely the affiliate is going to take care of his site. He will collect more commission, and you the end user will receive a better browsing experience. Its a win win situation.

I will assume casinomeister is affiliated to many sites here, but as you can see there has been a lot of work done to the site. It is regularly updated. You have access to a lot of information in the one place you may otherwise have to dig for. If I see a review here and I am interested in the site, I will have no hesitation signing up through an affiliate link here. As I said, its against the terms to sign up through your own links. There are many ways around it but I have no intention of risking my own player base to collect a little extra rake .

If pokeraddict is an affiliate, so what? if he wants to keep that fact hidden, thats his perogative. he says he isnt so I have no reason to disbelieve him. I have my problems with certain sites. I will post them here.

I am assuming you are attacking pokeraddict for being a pro poker player and an affiliate. Maybe you think he is giving misinformation because you think he is in cahoots with the site, fair enough. What I and others have stated with example is that your theory is totally flawed.....from your ideas on pro players.......affiliates.......rigged sites and without sounding rude, your knowledge of the game.

If you want to have an anti argument against an affiliate, try me. I will be happy to discect your argument with facts
 

1.) If it is almost impossible for a player to have a higher gross edge than 5%,
which could be e.g. 9% (because of his higher skill than other players) and thus have a net edge of 4% after this 5% rake, THEN why are you all blaming my poker skills for my losses, instead of saying that there was no cheating, but I simply lost because this 5% is unbeatable? Only one of you said this, the one who said that fishes are becoming fewer and less fishy, and he breaks even when he has a 5% rake against him, but he takes the bonus at the and as a profit.

I would say your skills are lacking because you dont appear to use the betting as a guage as to whether or not your decent hand has been rumbled. You may look at your own hand but do not seem to put that in relation to others arounds you. That is a novice mistake. Your hand examples omitted basic information that an experienced player would never leave out



2.) If, on the contrary, a good player can easily have a higher gross edge than 5% ,
which could be e.g. 9% (because of his higher skill than other players) and thus have a net edge of 4% after this 5% rake, THEN since you cannot know the level of my poker skill, how can you conclude that my skill differs THAT MUCH from this good player, and therefore that I lost because of my poor skill and not because of cheating? And if it doesnt differ that much, then I lost because of cheating! (as I explained before, it could not be variance).
see above reply


Pokeraddict admitted that he cannot calculate his gross or net edge, and he only knows that he has an unknown to him net edge, which means that he has a gross edge that can be anything above the 1% which is the rake he pays. So, if you constant poker winners cannot calculate your gross edge, how can you answer the above complications? However, I thank Pokeraddict who finally answered something on the point of the matter and clarified this matter I had doubts about. I add him I thanks (if I do it correctly).
pokeraddict might never be the best at any given table. Maybe he just avoids the strong players and makes his profit from the fish. That in itself is a skill, one of which you do not seem to have grasped


Therefore, whichever of the above two cases is the truth, your argument that I lost because of my poor skill is unreasonable.
refer to my answers above and come to your own conclusions.


I am expecting accurate answers.
Your limited information answers it


My opinion is that (providing that there is no cheating) the gross edge of a simply conservative player can reach even above 15% (a net edge of 10%) in some poker rooms, especially at limit tables, where everyone (and always) bets not simply like a fish, but like nuts! And that is exactly the reason I suspect the management for cheating:
If they just bet the nuts, keep raising them off a hand. You will collect all the small pots and beat the rake. When they raise, just fold. poker101


Since the players there are soooo fishes, and they get constantly so lucky against my strong hands, then it is very probable that either:

A.) these super-fishes are the management or programs who take whatever cards they choose, and thus getting quickly the money of normal players, and at the same time they attract the existing and new players, exactly because of their super-fishness.
review your own betting strategy. Bad beats happen but if you do not know how to take the value out of the fish, you are the fish.


B.) or they are real fishes, but exactly because of this, the good players have a huge e.g. 10% net edge against them, and they are bound to end up with twice the profit of the rake makes. So the management has a tremendous motive to fix the cards in their favor against good players, in order to balance the wins and losses of all players, so that rake takes it all at the end (as I analysed in my previous posts).
Again I am suggesting that you are the fish so you should benefit by this type of fixing


I think these super-fishes do not exist in other sites, (at least that much). You can also check this at the players/flop stat of each pokeroom. That doesnt mean of course that these other sites do not cheat.
Ive had fish who sucked out on me big style. I like finding these players because they are just ATM's if they hang around long enough. Just reload and keep taking the value out of their optimistic calls
 
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