I am more than 90% certain that all poker rooms are rigged

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Garywatson has some great play advice and he is 100% true about this:

pokeraddict might never be the best at any given table. Maybe he just avoids the strong players and makes his profit from the fish. That in itself is a skill, one of which you do not seem to have grasped

I keep detailed notes on players and know who is there to have fun and who is there to make money.
 
How full is Bigtits? I dont know. Actually, as there are 11 pages, I dont have the time to go over everything but for me, if a PR wants to cheat, they will (assuming software also rigged) deal strong hands to at least 2-3 of the players and let them sort themselves out while earning good rake in the process. The eventual winners are then rotated so that each player wins a number of hands but lose in the bargain as it cannot cover the rake they have dished out.
 
iv'e seen....

How many 4 of a kinds have you seen online compared to in real life??? I have seen way more online then in person. And maybe it is because you play more hands online but it seems to be a little bit more exciting online then in real life...:eek2:
 
How many 4 of a kinds have you seen online compared to in real life??? I have seen way more online then in person. And maybe it is because you play more hands online but it seems to be a little bit more exciting online then in real life...:eek2:

Ive seen 4 of a kind a number of times in real casinos. In fact, I was on the receiving end of a four of a kind in a home game a couple of weeks ago.
 
Just found this:
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How big is Fulltilt? I guess the bigger a pokerrom, the more above suspicion huh?

Make this your next study. I too have been stung with a disconnect. The response I received from the support team was inaccurate. I dropped over 1k holding the nuts. It wasnt at FT. It was an iscolated incident but I did quit the site for that reason
 
One more "pro" who in reality makes his money not from online raked poker, but because he is an afiiliate, and who is anxious to convince us that pokerooms are not rigged:
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omg. you think this guy is for real???? :lolup: That blog entry is some funny shit.


Look at the tags:

November 30, 2004 @ 9:55 pm Filed under Poker, Poker Humor, Online Poker, Is Online Poker Rigged?
 
One more "pro" who in reality makes his money not from online raked poker, but because he is an afiiliate, and who is anxious to convince us that pokerooms are not rigged:
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Casinomeister said:
FYI, most of the people who are disagreeing with you are players, not affiliates. Give that one a break, okay? That argument is pretty much null and void.

So if you post in another thread you can ignore CM's request?
 
You want statistical proof? You can get it yourselves if you do not care to lose money and time. Just open an account in any pokeroom and start playing. You will see that:

1.) When playing limit tables, you will rarely get strong preflop hands and when you get them, you will rarely flop or turn or river a pair. By rarely I mean less often than the probability says this should happen. This way the post blinds will wipe you out. (Because the amount wagered in the pot when you hold hands which have an edge greater than the 5% rake, will be insufficient to generate greater profits than the amount lost because of the post blinds. For the same reason, it might even be impossible to have an overall edge in limit poker with a 5% rake, even if there was no cheating, I do not know, although I think you should still have an edge when playing against the players of e.g. Sportingbet who almost never fold at limit tables. But certainly, if there was no rake, a conservative player would have a great edge over the other players even in limit poker and the post blinds would be no problem)

2.) When you get a strong hand, you will be beaten by a stronger one, more often that the probability says this should happen.

Therefore I recommend to play only no-limit, so you will force them to increase the rate of cheating of the No2 way of cheating, in order to make you lose. Because if playing limit, they can allocate the cheating equally in both ways, and make it much more difficult to proove it statistically.

You do not have to do very complicated analysis. This is how I got certain they cheat: Some preflop, flop etc hands (even when played by a stupid player) have an expected value, an edge, greater than the 5% rake (See the edge expected value of the preflop hands at Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) . I am not certain if these values refer to the before or to the after the 5% rake is subtracted, but even if they refer to the before, many hands have much greater than a 5% expected value) So these hands should make you a profit in the long run. Therefore if they make you great losses instead of great profits after a few hundend hands, this is the statistical evidence you ask for. Because when one has an even small edge, it is almost that he will double his bankroll instead of losing it. So if BECAUSE OF THESE HANDS you end up losing your bankroll instead of doubling it, you have your statistical evidence. Almost certain? Lets see how certain it is, regarding the small 2.7% edge roulette has against the player: Suppose a player has a 10,000$ bankroll and goes to the casino, and he is desperate to double his bankroll, and make it 20,000$. If he bets the whole 10,000$ at once, in one bet, on red or black, then he has a 18/37=48.65% probability of achieving his goal of doubling his bankroll to 20,000$. BUT IF HE TRIES TO MAKE HIS 10,000$ BANKROLL INTO 20,000$ SLOWLY, BY BETTING E.G. 50$ PER BET, THEN THE PROBABILITY OF REACHING THE 20,000$ IS NOT EVEN 1%. Yes, the standard deviation of poker is great, but still a few hundred hands are enough if your losses are great and since the edges - expected values of these hands are great (even when a 5% is subtracted).

In most sites (e.g. Sportingbet and 888.com), the players keep betting with crappy preflop and flop cards. Therefore a player who plays no limit (so that the post blinds do not cost him much as I explained above), and folds with the 75%-90% of the worst preflop hands (the greater the number of players the less the number of the preflop hands which have an edge) and folds at flop unless he has at least top pair, he definitely has an edge even after the 5% is subtracted. To fold unless you have a top pair at flop is an advice of Nick the Greek, who went from rags to riches by playing poker. And he was playing with no rake on the pot. So if you must fold when there is no rake, you must definatelly fold when there is 5% rake, so that you have an edge. But I have also tried not folding when I flopped second best pair, and the results were much worse. So Nicks advice was correct. Besides, when you choose a no limit table (where the post blinds are the 1/100 of the average pot, the only thing you have to do to have a net (after the 5% rake is subtracted) edge over the rest of the players, is to play with fewer hands than them, so that in more than 52.5% of your confrontations you hold a stronger hand than theirs (This 52.5% value would be valid if there were no post blinds, so the correct one is a bit higher). To make it more clear, if there were no post blinds, then if a player was folding everything except AA, then the 5% rake would not prevent him from having a huge edge over the other players.

Yes, I know, sometimes bloafing has an expected value so you must bloaf sometimes ? No, when the other players generally keep betting with crap cards you can ignore this factor and never bloaf. As long as you do not get scared and fold on their bloafs. You do not have to be a great poker player to do this, so the bloafing factor is ignorable.

And if it was impossible for any player to have an edge with a 5% rake, then the casinos would have no reason to cheat as ALL the money would end up to the rake, and we would not observe these abnormal results. Absolute Poker would have no reason to cheat.

But if you are not convinced that a player can have an edge in raked poker, do some statistical analysis using pokertracker or in hand. You will find that all sites cheat. They cheat that much, that I could do the stats in my memory. LOL, 90% of the time I had a strong hand, they had a stronger one, where it should be 20%. And when I was winning, I was winning pennies, they always had nothing strong. The videos of POTRIPPER at Youtube were nothing compared to what I have experienced. But in my case there was no superwinner. Just incredible bad luck which made sure nobody was a winner.

Of course, one might counterargue that this is bad luck or else called "being on the negative side of variance". But bad luck itself IS the statistical evidence for cheating: The more extreme the bad luck, the lower the probability that this bad luck had to happen, and thus the more probable the hypothesis that it happened because of cheating. And this is the ONLY argument that statististical evidence for cheating is based on.

So some casinos are more clever and keep the rate of cheating under certain limits, i.e. by modifying only 2 out of the 100 results of the RNG. How then will you get some strong statistical evidence? It is next to impossible, and you will need many hunderds or even many thousands of hands. And it will cost you a lot of money and time. It might take you a year of playing. And if they cheat 1 or 0.5 out of 100 hands, forget about it. Its impossible to get statistical evidence. IN THIS CASE THEY DO NOT RISK ANYTHING BY CHEATING, THEY ARE 100% SAFE OF NEVER GETTING EXPOSED. Of course the more they reduce the rate of cheating, the more they have to pay some winners, that is why some sites like Sportingbet cheat with a very exposable rate of cheating.

If you were real poker players and not affiliates and shills, you would not keep saying that my arguments are craap. But instead you would try to analyse them with careful-subtle-deep thought doubting counterarguments. Thats what you would do if you were interested in finding out the truth of whether they cheat or not. A scientist who really wants the truth, takes both sides of opposite theories, and doubts them both by with counterarguments. He never says: This argument is craap and I do not want to know it even before he understands it.But no, every time a player is complaining in the forums of being cheated, a multitude of posts attacks him that he his out of his mind just because he suspected this. AND YOU ALWAYS SAY THAT HE LOST BECAUSE OF HIS BAD POKER PLAY, WHEREAS YOU ARE WINNERS! NOT A WORD THAT HE MIGHT HAVE SIMPLY LOST BECAUSE OF THE RAKE, OR THAT PERHAPS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BEAT THE RAKE! But hey, you avoid this argument. First, because it is not in the interest of the casinos to convince them so. Secondly, if it is impossible to beat a 5% rake, how did you make your profits? So quit trying to convincing ME that you are not affiliates and shills. Well if I was an affiliate or shill, I would try to convince players it is impossible to beat the rake, if I wanted to avoid cheating accusations. But unfortunately for you, the rake IS beatable. I toled you, try Sportingbet. They go all in with K4 preflop! So either the rake is beatable, or these players are working for the casino and they pretend to be fish to attract players. I think the second is more probable, although there are some real fish as well.
 
No Argument Here

On this topic, I agree with both ThodorisK and Keyser to some degree. While I do believe that some card rooms do not fairly deal the cards, I don't think that it has anything to do with helping certain players over others.

As Keyser has stated, the total amount of money bet is the key to how much the house will win, not who wins the pot. Even if a couple of sharks dominate over a bunch of fishes, the cardroom knows that the key is to have enough players around to keep that money in play. A winning shark is probably not going to leave the site, and, as poker can be streaky, they will likely put some of their winnings back into play.

On the other hand, I have played way too much online poker not to have witnessed some very peculiar tendencies. By far the biggest is how often the river will hit and give some fish three sixes to beat my aces up, or something to that variety. There just seems to be way, way, too many good hands, and "lucky" river hits.

All considered, my theory of how cardrooms cheat players is simple: the hands that are dealt are "juiced". In other words, the better hands come up much more often than they should, to encourage more betting, bigger pots, and to keep the fishies hanging around until the end.

This tactic would greatly increase the room's "take", especially on the lower limit tables (where most of the players are); by inducing more betting & less folding, the bigger pots would ultimately mean more rake.

This type of an arrangement would probably be neutral; i.e., it wouldn't favor any particular player(s) in terms of getting good cards, but the number of good hands would increase, and it would also follow that the number of times a hand would improve would also increase.

This would explain why it would seem to some that the poorer players are getting the benefit. Good players might wisely (assuming a legitimate deal) fold 2 pairs to a made flush if the bet is too much (like a $50 bet into a $5 pot); a fish would chase the full house, and if the draw is skewd to favor better outcomes, they will probably hit the river more often than one would think possible.

If anyone out there thinks that this type of thing is BS, and that all poker rooms fairly deal the cards, just look throughout this web site; if casino operators by the hundreds continually try and cheat the average Joe out of his bankroll, what makes you think that a cardroom would never try it? All it would take to make my theory happen is a slight alteration of the deal when the site is put into use - just a simple algorithm to slightly affect the deal - and who would know? Poof, the cardroom could raise their profits by 50% or more, in a way much more difficult to detect (and almost impossible to prove)than most of the ways that casinos cheat us players.

I have the same experince. I have played many sites and there is no way that the cards are random. Having played live poker since the mid-seventies there is no doubt that these sites use a form of trigger software to ensure certain outcomes. If you play and watch enough games online you will notice many patterns emerge. Such as:

1. An all-in player against a player with more chips will win far more times than what is statistically possible in live play - regardless of the all-in cards (hand) in play.

2. Any hand that includes a 10 appears to be at odds with the software - although chip leaders don't seem to have the same problems as short stacks.

3. Obvious setups such as JJ vs 1010 Vs 88 etc are common. This usually happens more towards the end of a tourney. And it is those with less chips that usually have the weaker hand. Contrary to point one, in this instance the player with more chips tends to win.

4. Quads, Full-Books and Sets just appear far to often to be considered random - not to mention Flushs!

5. Buying cards! Watching how players play and seeing the outcomes, I have no doubt that this is another bias which is being exploited. Chip leaders gain a huge advantage by their power betting.

And Finally:

It is in the interest of poker sites to even out the playing field. In this way they ensure more players stay in the game (cash games) thus providing more rake per hour. If the cards online were truly random and without influence then good players would win far too often, meaning less average players would play; and as a consequence less rake.

One Final thought:

Live Poker you are playing the player, based on your hand and opportunity! Online, you are playing against the software - cards (hand) is secondary!
 
I gave Thodo many thanks in this thread. I was trying to clear his slate for the new year.

If I am playing live, I will play about 10% of the hands I will online. That means I will get 10 times as many lucky hands online and 10 times as many sickening beats.

Many people fail to realise that 2-2 is a slight favorite over AK. My standard hand to go out on is QQ or KK preflop.

I dont go with the card rigging thing. It makes no difference to the site. They can only get punished if caught.

If anyone is going to do a cheating argument, they should concentrate on colluding or the AP story. This thread to me just sums up people not happy about getting a bad run, nothing more.

9 out of 10 times in a tournament I get KO'd when I have the better hand. Most of the times, Its preflop. Poker has a big luck element. Most of the good players pick up mini wins through a tournament then catch the odd nutter & work their way up.
 
Punished?

I gave Thodo many thanks in this thread. I was trying to clear his slate for the new year.

If I am playing live, I will play about 10% of the hands I will online. That means I will get 10 times as many lucky hands online and 10 times as many sickening beats.

Many people fail to realise that 2-2 is a slight favorite over AK. My standard hand to go out on is QQ or KK preflop.

I dont go with the card rigging thing. It makes no difference to the site. They can only get punished if caught.

If anyone is going to do a cheating argument, they should concentrate on colluding or the AP story. This thread to me just sums up people not happy about getting a bad run, nothing more.

9 out of 10 times in a tournament I get KO'd when I have the better hand. Most of the times, Its preflop. Poker has a big luck element. Most of the good players pick up mini wins through a tournament then catch the odd nutter & work their way up.

I'm afraid that you are very naive here. Why do you think most sites are either offshore or some doggy place like Costa Rica? Why do you think casinmeister is necessary?

Do you know anything about software and what is required to write it? Do you know how easy it is to write biases within its program? If you think online poker is the same as the real thing you need to grab a case of reality and fast!

Real poker is live - what you see online is a game based on the real thing! Any other thought are unrealistic and without foundation!
 
I'm afraid that you are very naive here. Why do you think most sites are either offshore or some doggy place like Costa Rica? Why do you think casinmeister is necessary?

Do you know anything about software and what is required to write it? Do you know how easy it is to write biases within its program? If you think online poker is the same as the real thing you need to grab a case of reality and fast!

Real poker is live - what you see online is a game based on the real thing! Any other thought are unrealistic and without foundation!

Why would any site chose to alter cards? Maybe it is not totally random but everyone is playing from the same deck of cards. Poker is different from house game, in that they collect regardless of the result. Their fee is the $1 in a $10 game ($10+$1 tournaments). It makes no difference who wins, they collect at the start. In a ring game, they collect rake, that is generally 3-5% of the total pot. They dont care who wins.

If a is rigged, the large stack wouldnt win because the site would want to keep everyone in, to continue draining the players of rake. Why rig cards to bust the short stack?
 
Talk about contradiction

Why would any site chose to alter cards? Maybe it is not totally random but everyone is playing from the same deck of cards. Poker is different from house game, in that they collect regardless of the result. Their fee is the $1 in a $10 game ($10+$1 tournaments). It makes no difference who wins, they collect at the start. In a ring game, they collect rake, that is generally 3-5% of the total pot. They dont care who wins.

If a is rigged, the large stack wouldnt win because the site would want to keep everyone in, to continue draining the players of rake. Why rig cards to bust the short stack?

That is the point Gary. Cards are manipulated to ensure players are kept in the game. The more players stay the more rake sites make. You have contradicted your argument in the last sentence. The only time that it is not important for players to stay in the game is in tournaments. No rake!

WAKE UP!
 
That is the point Gary. Cards are manipulated to ensure players are kept in the game. The more players stay the more rake sites make. You have contradicted your argument in the last sentence. The only time that it is not important for players to stay in the game is in tournaments. No rake!

WAKE UP!

I can assure you. If you are reckless, you wont last long in a ring game. Two players playing against each other will cancel themselves and lose to the rake but that has nothing to do with a scam. The house get their rake. To win & keep coming back, you have to stay ahead of the rake. For that you need to be above average to walk away a winner. If you dont like the idea of rake, stick to tournaments & you know exactly what you need to do to profit. I just dont go with your argument and I doubt we will agree on this.
 
You are not listening

I can assure you. If you are reckless, you wont last long in a ring game. Two players playing against each other will cancel themselves and lose to the rake but that has nothing to do with a scam. The house get their rake. To win & keep coming back, you have to stay ahead of the rake. For that you need to be above average to walk away a winner. If you dont like the idea of rake, stick to tournaments & you know exactly what you need to do to profit. I just dont go with your argument and I doubt we will agree on this.

WTF are you talking about???? The house like any business (legit or otherwise) will do whatever it takes to make money. To exploit this in Poker, sites manipulate the software to ensure players stay in the game. This will ensure the maximum rake per table is achieved. What's more, by creating action hands it encourages bigger bets and therefore bigger rakes and more of them per hour!

If you say you play live poker, then either you are playing a different game that what I have played for over 30 years, or you are just plain dumb. A mere novice could easily conceive the difference between the two.
 
WTF are you talking about???? The house like any business (legit or otherwise) will do whatever it takes to make money. To exploit this in Poker, sites manipulate the software to ensure players stay in the game. This will ensure the maximum rake per table is achieved. What's more, by creating action hands it encourages bigger bets and therefore bigger rakes and more of them per hour!

If you say you play live poker, then either you are playing a different game that what I have played for over 30 years, or you are just plain dumb. A mere novice could easily conceive the difference between the two.

:rolleyes:
 
Being naive and having tunnel vision will always come back to haunt you. Look and accept the obvious and you will find peace

I know what I think but I am not going to state the obvious.

malleeboy. Did you know that rake is capped at a table? Usually around $3 per table. Did you know that you do not pay into the rake unless you play the hand? Did you know that its not advisable to play every hand? Had you been playing poker for 30 years you might not have the tunnel vision which appears to be haunting you. Do you realize that you are putting forward an argument without offering any more than that. Did you know that if you were a horse, you wouldnt need blinkers? Do you realize that in your feeble attempt to attack my point of view, you are making your own sound less creditable?
 
So Sad

I know what I think but I am not going to state the obvious.

malleeboy. Did you know that rake is capped at a table? Usually around $3 per table. Did you know that you do not pay into the rake unless you play the hand? Did you know that its not advisable to play every hand? Had you been playing poker for 30 years you might not have the tunnel vision which appears to be haunting you. Do you realize that you are putting forward an argument without offering any more than that. Did you know that if you were a horse, you wouldnt need blinkers? Do you realize that in your feeble attempt to attack my point of view, you are making your own sound less creditable?

You are a poor pitiful person. What is your point? My argument is based upon what is possible and what appears to be happening! You have not listened (or understood) what is being presented here.

Your attitude is poor and your level of understanding is weak at best! It is obvious that you lack the ability to understand anything but your point of view.

I'm afraid you have swallowed the online poker dribble hook, line and sinker!

PS Capped as you may say BUT......if (and what I see is so obvious), games are action heavy, more games per hour equals more rake per hour.....does it not??? Is that making any sense at all???
 
You are a poor pitiful person. What is your point? My argument is based upon what is possible and what appears to be happening! You have not listened (or understood) what is being presented here.

Your attitude is poor and your level of understanding is weak at best! It is obvious that you lack the ability to understand anything but your point of view.

I'm afraid you have swallowed the online poker dribble hook, line and sinker!

PS Capped as you may say BUT......if (and what I see is so obvious), games are action heavy, more games per hour equals more rake per hour.....does it not??? Is that making any sense at all???


My point is that you have no real argument & I will go as far to say that it is you who fails to see anothers point of view.

Yes, more games per hour could mean more rake per hour. That proves that online is played quicker than live games.

More action does not necessarily mean more rake. A standard table may fold around a table. A game loaded with action with all 10 players paying into the pot, each player throwing $1000 into the pot, will only pay 30c in rake each. The hand may take 5 minutes to complete, which only works out at 6c a minute in rake per person. That looks pretty good value for a 10k pot.

PS. I am not taking your posts seriously. If you come up with a better argument, I may listen but you are blinkered to the point, you think everyone else is. Tunnel vision as you call it.:thumbsup:
 
Again you miss the point

My point is that you have no real argument & I will go as far to say that it is you who fails to see anothers point of view.

Yes, more games per hour could mean more rake per hour. That proves that online is played quicker than live games.

More action does not necessarily mean more rake. A standard table may fold around a table. A game loaded with action with all 10 players paying into the pot, each player throwing $1000 into the pot, will only pay 30c in rake each. The hand may take 5 minutes to complete, which only works out at 6c a minute in rake per person. That looks pretty good value for a 10k pot.

PS. I am not taking your posts seriously. If you come up with a better argument, I may listen but you are blinkered to the point, you think everyone else is. Tunnel vision as you call it.:thumbsup:


May I turn the argument back on you and say where is you evidence that there is no manipulation by the software? Just because sites operate gives no comfort to reputable enterprise! That is why we see so many of these sites operating offshore or Costa Rica. I think this forum and the need for casinomeister is enough evidence to prove my point. Besides I know what and how software is manipulted. Do you.?

Until you can have an open mind, I'm afraid beating a dead horse will achieve nothing
 
May I turn the argument back on you and say where is you evidence that there is no manipulation by the software?

The evidence is in the fact that they do not need to. It makes no sense to alter the play as it is. Rake may be a higher % of their bankroll to some people at lower stakes but the higher up you go, it tends to max out every hand anyway. Again if you play Hi/Low, the rake will likely max out every hand. Why try to manipulate a winning formula. It doesnt benefit anyone
 
WAKE UP

The evidence is in the fact that they do not need to. It makes no sense to alter the play as it is. Rake may be a higher % of their bankroll to some people at lower stakes but the higher up you go, it tends to max out every hand anyway. Again if you play Hi/Low, the rake will likely max out every hand. Why try to manipulate a winning formula. It doesnt benefit anyone


Gary, have you ever heard of the saying......."you cannot see the forest for the trees"? You are so blinded that you just cannot see the obvious! Again I stress to you, if all is above board as you say why do we have casinomeister?????

Now I want you to do a test for me. This will prove to you that the sites manipulate the games. I want you to play at Pokerstars. Can you do that for me? Just play the freerolls.OK

Now I want you to play Stud. I want you to pay particular notice to the cards you receive. Then after you are finished, I want you to play Razz. Again I want you to pay particular notice to the cards you receive.

According to you, if the cards have not been manipulated in anyway, you should receive similar cards in both games, am I right? My experience differs. In all the games I have played of each one I have found that quads and trips appear so often in Razz yet, appear to be missing in Stud! Now why would that be????

Now I want you to play two games of Hold'em at once. Keep both games open on the screen. My experience has shown some amazing patterns which include receiving at least one card the same in both games and noticing what appears on the board in one game rarely appears on the other, yet you have similar hands in both. Does that seem normal to you??

But what I find most frightening is the high level of predictability of outcomes after the flop after seeing players whole cards. This I cannot do in live games!

Online poker is no different to any software game in that in order to win you must first learn to master(cater to) its needs. There is no doubt that this is a form of trigger software, highly biased to encourage fast action and predictable outcomes.

Are you up to the challenge?


Oh and by the way, keep your eye on the cards you get whenever you are asked to "bring-in". Chances are you will never be able to play the hand once you get that honour - something that never seems to happen when i play both forms of the game live
 
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May I turn the argument back on you and say where is you evidence that there is no manipulation by the software? Just because sites operate gives no comfort to reputable enterprise! That is why we see so many of these sites operating offshore or Costa Rica. I think this forum and the need for casinomeister is enough evidence to prove my point. Besides I know what and how software is manipulted. Do you.?

Until you can have an open mind, I'm afraid beating a dead horse will achieve nothing
Well no it isn't, becasue Casinomeister was around and set-up in the days of online casinos (Someone correct me if I'm wrong).

At that time there were no online poker rooms, and nor were there any poker sections within the whole of the Casinomeister site.

It is only latterly that poker has come more into this site, but you will note, that despite the sterling work that the 'Meister does in outing and rogueing shady casino operations, in poker it is incredibly rare, with AP being one of the very few. Even then there hasn't been a single case found ever of a site in someway rigging its software.

As you would say, that does I think prove a point?
 
Now I want you to do a test for me. This will prove to you that the sites manipulate the games. I want you to play at Pokerstars. Can you do that for me? Just play the freerolls.OK

How could anyone possibly tell anything playing free rolls? The play in free rolls is so erratic.

There are people (some that frequent this board) that are true professionals when it comes to analyzing play and software.

All the professionals will all tell you that there is NO WAY to tell if a software program is cheating unless you run tens if not hundreds of thousands of hands. So trying to analyze games by viewing two windows at the same time as you play is going to be about as accurate as a blind man in a pissing contest.

There are independent auditors that you can hire to check the validly and randomness of the games.

So if 90% of all poker rooms are rigged, why haven't a single one of these professional independent auditors spoken up about it?
 
No point - just a current observation

Well no it isn't, becasue Casinomeister was around and set-up in the days of online casinos (Someone correct me if I'm wrong).

At that time there were no online poker rooms, and nor were there any poker sections within the whole of the Casinomeister site.

It is only latterly that poker has come more into this site, but you will note, that despite the sterling work that the 'Meister does in outing and rogueing shady casino operations, in poker it is incredibly rare, with AP being one of the very few. Even then there hasn't been a single case found ever of a site in someway rigging its software.

As you would say, that does I think prove a point?

Does this mean they don't? Just because someone has not put the money into cataloging and mapping hands from poker sites does not mean squeeky clean. The FBI and CIA are certainly not! Richard Nixon wasn't and he was running America. You have a lot of trouble understanding the difference between live random poker and software written poker. They are TOTALLY different. There is no doubt that online poker is manipulated (because they can) for many reasons: a) to ensure quick results for tournament play (as they get no rake only entry fee)and: b) for ring games, the faster a hand is completed the more games are created in the hour and therefore more rake. Simple math and what I can see simple rationale.

You have to remember, in live poker 12000 entries would take over 7 days (possibly 10) to complete. PokerStars can achieve that feat in around 5-6 hours. Now there are two reasons for that:

1. The games are faster online ( but not that fast (without help from rigged software) that 11,999 players are eliminated in 6 hours), and

2. Software manipulation ensures fast action and quick results ( I have seen so many setups where three players are all holding pocket pairs - ensuring an all-in scenarios - this is rare in live play, Quads appearing in 4 hands within an hour - never seen that in all my 30 years of playing live, flushs to make you think these are as common as pairs and to top it off, allinners getting runner, runner and winning against someone who has a st8 off the flop so many times it makes a mockery of the statistics of live play)

Without both above points working together, tourneys of this size would hold up the site for days.

I'm sorry but your argument is only based on your narrow view. However, any player of the live game would be very suspicious of the "spin" these online sites spew out, and be totally convinced of their charade once they have played online.

One day it will be proven. By the way, isn't poker run by random number generators like casino slots??? Hmmmm do I see something similar here????
 
Does this mean they don't? Just because someone has not put the money into cataloging and mapping hands from poker sites does not mean squeeky clean. The FBI and CIA are certainly not! Richard Nixon wasn't and he was running America.
Have you read what anyone else has written here? Many players, and nearly all regular high volume internet players us PT to track play, it's why Absolute were rumbled. With the millions of hands that these players have on record, not a single one has ever found anything wrong with any of the current online poker rooms as far as the RNG goes. If you can provide evidence outside of "I was rivered by a one outer" then not only will you be the first, but you'll also achieve instant fame as the man who "cracked the internet poker conspiracy". Your fame will be instant, so get to it I urge you.

You have a lot of trouble understanding the difference between live random poker and software written poker. They are TOTALLY different.
Yup, one involves single tabling with live people and has a far greater emphasis on reading abilitiy, the other is far more mathematical becasue reads are harder, and pushing people off hands is also harder becasue the ease of clicking a button, compared to physically pushing your chips in with your low flush draw etc means less chasers in live play.

There is no doubt that online poker is manipulated (because they can)
There is plenty of doubt, in fact there is no reason to suspect they do this at all!?!?!?

for many reasons: a) to ensure quick results for tournament play (as they get no rake only entry fee)and: b) for ring games, the faster a hand is completed the more games are created in the hour and therefore more rake. Simple math and what I can see simple rationale.
a) If we accept that two reasons are "many" then lets carry on. b) They can ensure quick results by increasing the blinds more quickly, having smaller starting stacks, and shortening the levels, so what is the need to go to the extremely difficult to achieve, and complicated lengths of fixing bust out hands? c) If a hand is completed faster, then surely the pots are smaller, so more hands, but possibly more rake? Want more rake - then reduce the clock per action, make faster software (like UB) or up the rake (like Boss moving to Euros, or Ladbrokes raking 6%)


You have to remember, in live poker 12000 entries would take over 7 days (possibly 10) to complete. PokerStars can achieve that feat in around 5-6 hours. Now there are two reasons for that:

1. The games are faster online ( but not that fast (without help from rigged software) that 11,999 players are eliminated in 6 hours), and
For Stars to run a 6 hour 12,000 player tourney (of which there are no actual examples anywhere in the world to date), I presume you are referring to a freeroll? You cannot compare a freeroll, with it's short stack, short rounds, and extreme loose play, with a 12,000 player live tourney with deep stack, long clock, and TAG play. Poker Stars weekly Million plays for 12 hours or more, and despite having a friendly structure is still far more quicker structuire than live play, and you get 3 times as many hands per hour, so really thats a 3 day tourney for 4000 players.

2. Software manipulation ensures fast action and quick results ( I have seen so many setups where three players are all holding pocket pairs - ensuring an all-in scenarios - this is rare in live play, Quads appearing in 4 hands within an hour - never seen that in all my 30 years of playing live, flushs to make you think these are as common as pairs and to top it off, allinners getting runner, runner and winning against someone who has a st8 off the flop so many times it makes a mockery of the statistics of live play)
Selective memory. I rememeber sitting down to play a small stakes NL game last year, and within the first hour I saw a flopped AAA board, with the case Ace on the turn. Amazingly, the following morning I sat down and again within the first hour I saw a flopped AAA, with the case Ace on the turn. Rigged? Well the first was at Caesers Palace, and the second at Venetian. Later in the second day I was at MGM (my fave Vegas card room) and within the hour there had indeed been four shown down quads hands, two to the same girl, and happily one for me. I also got paid on the Casers hand as I held a King and got called by a Queen.

Celebrity late night poker a couple of years ago, 1st heat, 1st hand, and Stephen Hendry knocks an opponent out with a Royal Flush. I don't remember anything else about that series, but I remember this hand.

Play long enough you see it all, but you'll only remember the exceptional hands.

Without both above points working together, tourneys of this size would hold up the site for days.
No they wouldn't, you clearly don't know how to set a tournament up to finish within a particular range of time. Why do you think casinos (live ones) have a certain clock, chip stack, and levels? It's not random, experience based upon how many players they historically get, and speed of play, coupled with when they need to finish, means they set up the structure accordingly. Online is the same.

I'm sorry but your argument is only based on your narrow view.
<cough>

However, any player of the live game would be very suspicious of the "spin" these online sites spew out, and be totally convinced of their charade once they have played online.
Many live players are, becasue when they go online they lose. Live players in general are poorer players, and are quick to assert the reason they lose is because of "fixing", sadly as more and more internet pros go live, they are finding their lack of ability is the route of their issues, not the poker sites.

One day it will be proven. By the way, isn't poker run by random number generators like casino slots??? Hmmmm do I see something similar here????
No, but then you don't understand that slots are also a house game it seems?
 
malleeboy, I love the way you avoid the logical argument. I guess you avoid the logical argument because you don't have any facts or evidence to support your claims.

I'll try again though... If 90% of poker rooms are cheating why aren't they getting caught and outed by the independent professionals or the professional players that monitor and play at them?


The FBI and CIA are certainly not! Richard Nixon wasn't and he was running America.
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Could someone please explain to me why there are so many aces and kings in the flops?! I wrote to 2 online poker companies and they couldnt explain why there were so many aces or kings in their flops!!
I watched 1000 flops and 687 times there was either a king or ace or both in the flops
I dealt 1000 flops with a deck of cards and 346 times there was an ace or king or both

It seems to me they fix the flops because everyone holds aces or kings!!!!!!!!!
 
I agree

Has anyone not noticed The "mysterious" player who appears when you have $2000 he has $4000 plays a few hands takes your $2000 with some ridiculous flops and then "disappears" MANAGEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Originally Posted by malleeboy View Post
You have to remember, in live poker 12000 entries would take over 7 days (possibly 10) to complete. PokerStars can achieve that feat in around 5-6 hours. Now there are two reasons for that:

1. The games are faster online ( but not that fast (without help from rigged software) that 11,999 players are eliminated in 6 hours), and

There's one slight flaw in your logic. You seem to forget that live tournaments don't have a 15-20 second time clock for you to act. This definitely accounts for quite a bit of the speed in which a big tournament plays out.
 
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

totally agree with everything you have said you have to be an idiot not to think they are fixed!! you can do anything with software EG with video pokers you can fix them never to pay a royal flush so goodness knows what these poker companies can do PS my girlfriend is a web designer and iternet marketing expert with a very high IQ she played online poker after years of playing "real" cards 2 weeks later she said never again would she paly online poker Quote "the software is fixed"
 
IDIOT

You are an idiot i worked for a company in ireland famous for its poker machines ETC which i cant name for obvious reasons we could fix the hands to what ever we wanted and you think the software on online poker cant be fixed LOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
 
You are an idiot i worked for a company in ireland famous for its poker machines ETC which i cant name for obvious reasons we could fix the hands to what ever we wanted and you think the software on online poker cant be fixed LOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

....actually, no comment. Come back with you have solid proof.

It's been said time and time again, but still rings true: Those that think every online poker room is rigged are simply trying to find an excuse for why they consistently lose. If those people worked on trying to improve their game instead of spending countless hours trying to prove that the sites are rigged, these posts wouldn't exist.
 
Could someone please explain to me why there are so many aces and kings in the flops?
Do you have any hard numbers to back up your statement? Or does it just "seem" to you like you see more Kings and Aces in the flops?

Those that think every online poker room is rigged are simply trying to find an excuse for why they consistently lose.
So very true. There are few that admit they are lousy players, and almost every one of the people that think all rooms are rigged have stated they 'know how to play' or "they play an optimum strategy" or some such garbage.

I for one know I am lousy player and I make mistakes... lots of them, thats why you don't see me playing on Poker After Dark. ;)
 
Do you have any hard numbers to back up your statement? Or does it just "seem" to you like you see more Kings and Aces in the flops?

So very true. There are few that admit they are lousy players, and almost every one of the people that think all rooms are rigged have stated they 'know how to play' or "they play an optimum strategy" or some such garbage.

I for one know I am lousy player and I make mistakes... lots of them, thats why you don't see me playing on Poker After Dark. ;)

FWIW, Full Tilt is running tournaments for a seat on Poker After Dark....cheap too ;)
 
You are an idiot i worked for a company in ireland famous for its poker machines ETC which i cant name for obvious reasons we could fix the hands to what ever we wanted and you think the software on online poker cant be fixed LOLLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Mmmmmmm, You seem to think you are the only one that worked for these companies... How old are you, you sound very young making such a groundless statement. Because the company where you worked rigged their machines everyone does? There is no clear cut evidence that poker rooms are rigged. Nor does it make any sense for them to do so. Infact the opposite is rather true, they know out of all the gambling experts amongst us, they will be caught if they do. The want to be fair to build that reputation of bing fair so they can rely on their followers to bring more honey, they love the rakes and the more players the more the rakes.

I know there are arguments to the contrary by many most of whom are bad poker players, but the fact of the matter is plain and simple. Bad poker players rarely understand why they keep on loosing. The fact is that they simply do not understand how poker works. It is a skill game. Tight players often loose and they loose hard because they get rivered for large amounts of money, because they were convinced they had the better hand. Smart players actually convince them even further that they have the better hand. I mean it is like telling everyone what you have in your hand.

Become accountable for your own actions is my only suggestion. Take the responsibility and rather try to learn how to play poker first. Predictable play is such a great quality of a fish.
 
You have to remember, in live poker 12000 entries would take over 7 days (possibly 10) to complete. PokerStars can achieve that feat in around 5-6 hours. Now there are two reasons for that:
For a 30 year veteran you seem to very convinced of your facts. I agree that the temptation must be there for the poker rooms, but the reality is that the online play is much faster than land based. There is no comparison in speed. 100's of tables playing at the same time at lighting fast speeds, table changes at the speed of thought. The reality is that online play simply moves that much faster.

I have seen so many setups where three players are all holding pocket pairs - ensuring an all-in scenarios - this is rare in live play, Quads appearing in 4 hands within an hour - never seen that in all my 30 years of playing live, flushs to make you think these are as common as pairs and to top it off, allinners getting runner, runner and winning against someone who has a st8 off the flop so many times it makes a mockery of the statistics of live play

If you increased the rate of live play you will note that there is nothing sinister here. If you look at mathematical odds, it is very much possible that this would happen at the rate it does. I honestly cannot think of a major difference between live poker and online poker in terms of the cards. Reading players and understanding the psychological differences are about it. People do play different online,... allot different, but the hands are similar.
 
I ran some poker rooms in Denver for a couple years (before they were busted.. SOCIAL CLUBS, lol)
before I found this beautiful thing called online
poker and then online casinos and then affiliation :D
I know some of the greats personally and when I walk into
Bobby's room a few people know me ;) not because I play
good but because I am cute

You would be suprised with the amount of unbelievable
hands that come up frequently in live action. I can
not count the amount of unreal beats I have seen.
I would rarely have more than one table of live action
so it was not the Bellagio or even close. I have seen
it all and back to back and it does happen, and
sometimes frequenly.. I saw 2 ACTUAL bad beats..
quad over quads in less than an hour, and I know no one
was cheating because I hired the dealer and he was not
that smart!

I went on to find pokerstars.. I too thought
very bizarre things happened online but I was
winning so did not really care. I know a little
collusion goes on from time to time.. my friends
and I played so many sit&gos we would get at the
same tables sometimes and try to cheat a little on
messager (IT RARELY HELPED ONE BIT)

Now I am on the affiliate side, and although
I deal more with online casinos now, I feel
many if not most poker rooms and casinos realize
they they only make money with happy players...
if they do not they are just stupid and that is why Casino Meister is here.

Here is the problem:
Tilt. things go faster online, and we only remember the interesting hands or the bad beats..
We forget all the hands that go as we expect. If you win
in land poker rooms and not online, change up your
style.. I found I played the sit&gos great but live online action
was just not for me. If you don't trust it than quit playing
online because if you think you are going to loose, you
will never ever win.

I wish you the best luck and hope things start going your way soon!:thumbsup:
 
I thought about my post and I know no one believes anything they hear
so hopefully this pic gives me a tiny bit of credibilty..

I am 100% certain that 90% of poker rooms do not cheat:thumbsup:

Doyleandme.jpg
 
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