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Hyper Casino refusing to pay out £1150

I don't normally self-exclude. So I don't know what happens when you do.
Is there a warning?

'By excluding yourself from casino A. you will also be excluding yourself from casino B, casino C and casino D'

It wouldn't necessarily change the mind of someone with gambling problems. But might change the mind of 'revenge' excluders
 
The problem was that there was no indication that there were sister casinos - just a tiny L&L mention at the bottom of their home page - no link, no mention of any group or other casinos at all. If you don't believe me, this is the home page from two days ago
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


It should not be a requirement that a player has to do research on a casino before playing there. Hypercasino has shown their interest in transparency when they emailed me this:
We have no requirement or legal obligation to list our sister sites. However, Hyper casino is listed to be a part of the L&L group at the bottom of the homepage:

"Hyper Casino is owned and operated by L&L Europe Ltd. Northfields App 7, Vjal Indipendenza, Mosta, MST9026, Malta - all rights reserved ©."
Click to expand...
It may not be a legal requirement, but it's scummy behaviour

During your period of self-exclusion, you promise not to circumvent, or to attempt to circumvent, the self-exclusion agreement by attempting to stake using hypercasino.com or our Services, either yourself or using a third party. Any Accounts found to be in breach of a self-exclusion agreement will be closed as soon as they are discovered. Please note that if you access your Account and/or open a new Account during the self-exclusion period by fraudulent means or by deliberately entering incorrect information and our automated checks do not prevent this happening, then we shall have no responsibility or liability to a player or any third party for any gambling activity that takes place (including to return any deposits, winnings or other funds in respect of such activity). Any new Accounts during a self-exclusion agreement will be closed as soon as they are detected by us.
Click to expand...

The relevant bit doesn't actually cover my situation. I was *not* attempting to circumvent any self-exclusion at the casino - I wasn't self-excluded there. I clearly didn't realise that (a) this casino had this one condition and (b) that this casino was even in a group. As I said, I *should* have researched this group further, but it should not be a requirement - the casino should be honest enough to make it clear that they're in a group, but they neither mention it on their front page (just 'L&L Europe'), in the T&Cs (even more vague 'our services').

Lastly, the rep's 'gotcha' is after I pointed out that their systems should have picked up that my account was the same as their other sites and warned me beforehand - it would be absolutely simple for them to implement a system to check an email (a unique ID) - given that my email has been exactly the same for the 'sister' casinos (and for most others - I have changed it once over the many years I have been playing on online casinos) - they claim that I put a different DOB on one of the sister casinos. I doubt that I did make that mistake -, but I can't check because all my accounts are now closed - this is a useless argument anyway as (a) I have a unique name, (b) unique email, (c) unique address - there's only me living in my own house - and (d) unique telephone number. I am also VERY aware that if I win anything I would have to verify my account (as I have done plenty of times) and then I would be found out.

It's also irrelevant as my point is that Hypercasino nicked £1150 of legitimate winnings on the basis of something that I didn't do something that would not be normally expected i.e. go and research their info, plus some rather vague T&Cs.
Here are the T&Cs:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
though I believe the relevant one is the one that I quoted.

I have no idea if the site has been altered now, but I took the screenshots at the time of the dispute with their staff because, for obvious reasons, I am not trusting on this casino to do the 'right thing'

Oh and to the rep, sure, you can do whatever you like as long as you don't release any identifying information. I just want the money that I legitimately won.
 
Oh and if the Casino rep could answer the question that I posed in my email, but you deftly avoided answering - if the situation was the same, but I had lost my deposit then you 'realised' that I was self-excluded from your hidden sister casinos, would you then return the deposit?

I very very much doubt it.
 
dionysus said:
well, unfortunately, you did exclude at a sister casino, and the casino did refund your deposit, so you arent out anything, but you did learn something, because there's one thing you posted a fair few might disagree with >
'I pointed out that it was completely unfair to expect a player to research a casino'

it's always good to research a casino and it never hurts to chat with support to ask if they have any sister casinos, especially if youre someone who uses self-exclude.

As to legal action...for? You arent out anything

sucks you arent a little richer
On the plus side, you arent any poorer :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for reply

To be honest, if I see that a casino has good reviews / accredited etc then I may have a go - I've never had issues with regards to self-exclusion / closing accounts before so it's not been something that I've had to look out for. Should I have to research? Nope. Should I have researched? Possibly. It's kinda moot now anyway, this experience has burned me and if I feel like having a binge again, I'll just stick to casinos that I've had around for ages.
 
Nope, nothing received mate !

Shouldnt take over 36+17 minutes...
 
irish-ranger said:
As Dino said you self excluded from a sister site which is in thier T@Cs
Why people self excluded is beyond me just close the accounts or just leave them dormant this is quite common dust your self off and move on.
Click to expand...

The point is that there was no explicit mention - even Casino Rewards casinos make it explicit that they're in a group. Also, I'm not even sure if the Hyper T&Cs apply in this case as I clearly wasn't attempting to circumvent a self-exclusion (if so, then it's the worst fucking attempt ever where I give them tonnes of uniquely identifying information whilst knowing that I will have to verify as well :rolleyes:)

I've had several casinos tell me I can't close the account in a normal sense - only temporarily / self-exclude. Self-exclusion also has the benefit of stopping casino spam right away.
 
I did receive a PM as OP can't reply in the topic as he is not allowed to post due to a temp lock?

Asked if the PM was meant for this topic or not... Awaiting reply.
 
Ok this is a bit complicated to work with, maybe mods can explain?

OP tries to post replies but cliams to be under review?
 
JayBe said:
Oh and to the rep, sure, you can do whatever you like as long as you don't release any identifying information. I just want the money that I legitimately won.
Click to expand...

At L&L we've have a system for onboarding to verify customers on: age, identity and sanction warnings. This system has been live on our end early 2016.

Customer registers on: 2019-06-13 02:23:39 at Fun Casino.
Our onboarding verification showed: not verified 2019-06-13 02:28:26 IdentityResult : Fail | IdentityScore : 0 | appverified : Refer
Customer went to self-exclude.

UK customers who SE - are not allowed to register, deposit or play at any other of our properties.

Trust me, we have really worked hard the past 1.5 years to let our system work where:

a) Gambling addicts are not allowed to register or play (if we know that - upfront we can't know)
b) To make sure SE'ed customers - are not allowed to deposit and play.

What happend on the Fun Casino account:

2019-06-15 00:15:43 fun223962 set player self-exclusion for: 1825 days player self-excluded

Two days later an SE by customer was put in place, maybe because the onboarding check fails and thus deposits and gameplay is blocked? I don't know. There is no customer interaction log. So the customer did it himself on site.

At Hyper Casino we accepted a registration of the customer at: 2019-06-15 00:20:30, just 5 minutes after the self-exclusion on FunCasino. Here the customer details were provided accordingly so that our onboarding system verified him accordingly:

verified 2019-06-15 00:22:58 IdentityResult : Pass | IdentityScore : 40 | Over18 : yes | appverified : Yes

Customer deposits 150, plays, wagers bonus, went to withdrawal. And here we check a bit further, just to find a matching account that is SE'ed but with a different DOB.

The following information is provided on our webiste when you SE:

The timeout system offered by Fun Casino is designed to give you the opportunity to take a break from playing. By setting a timeout you limit the access to your account and you will not able to deposit and play games.

In addition, you will not receive promotional information or be able to participate in promotional offers. With a timeout in place you will be able to log in to check your settings, gaming history or transaction history.

In the case that you feel you may have a problem with gambling or an addiction Fun Casino recommends you to self-exclude instead. A self-exclusion results in a complete lock of your account for the duration of 3 months up to 5 years. Once the self-exclusion is expired you would need to take action to opt in by contacting our trained customers service agents over the telephone. Self-exclusion must be applied in the event of problem gambling only!

To access the self-exclusion section, simply click the button below and follow the steps.

If you do not feel that you have a problem with gambling or an addiction, we strongly advise to use the timeout system as presented above.

--

A clear indicication not to view the service you are using is taken lightly.

So if you register at a casino, cant deposit or play as the onboarding system couldnt verify you. Why would you SE 2 days later, given the above statement? And go to another property of the same group within 5 minutes, to register with your "real" details.

Sorry, but here it stops. as per our terms you are required to provide your details accordingly.
Similar to when you sign up at a casino, you accept their terms which state: provide your details how you sign up at gamstop.

If players start to apply all kind of fuzzyness during registrations, we as providers - cant do anything anymore but just to close the door.

It is simple:
You are a person and you want to make use of the services from a provider, where the provider (for various regulatory but also AML reasons) demands you to provide YOUR details accordingly, why wouldnt you? And why are we to take the blame if you didnt?

Sorry guys, but here I'm confident: Just make sure you enter you details accordingly. Including typo's. It's just a waste of your and MY TIME!

Thanks!

Jan
 
Yep casino did the right thing by refunding. Sadly, if a player loses and subsequently an exclusion is found there are certain operators who won't give back the deposits. So it's a bit of a fucker.
 
L&L-Jan said:
At L&L we've have a system for onboarding to verify customers on: age, identity and sanction warnings. This system has been live on our end early 2016.

Customer registers on: 2019-06-13 02:23:39 at Fun Casino.
Our onboarding verification showed: not verified 2019-06-13 02:28:26 IdentityResult : Fail | IdentityScore : 0 | appverified : Refer
Customer went to self-exclude.

UK customers who SE - are not allowed to register, deposit or play at any other of our properties.

Trust me, we have really worked hard the past 1.5 years to let our system work where:

a) Gambling addicts are not allowed to register or play (if we know that - upfront we can't know)
b) To make sure SE'ed customers - are not allowed to deposit and play.

What happend on the Fun Casino account:

2019-06-15 00:15:43 fun223962 set player self-exclusion for: 1825 days player self-excluded

Two days later an SE by customer was put in place, maybe because the onboarding check fails and thus deposits and gameplay is blocked? I don't know. There is no customer interaction log. So the customer did it himself on site.

At Hyper Casino we accepted a registration of the customer at: 2019-06-15 00:20:30, just 5 minutes after the self-exclusion on FunCasino. Here the customer details were provided accordingly so that our onboarding system verified him accordingly:

verified 2019-06-15 00:22:58 IdentityResult : Pass | IdentityScore : 40 | Over18 : yes | appverified : Yes

Customer deposits 150, plays, wagers bonus, went to withdrawal. And here we check a bit further, just to find a matching account that is SE'ed but with a different DOB.

The following information is provided on our webiste when you SE:

The timeout system offered by Fun Casino is designed to give you the opportunity to take a break from playing. By setting a timeout you limit the access to your account and you will not able to deposit and play games.

In addition, you will not receive promotional information or be able to participate in promotional offers. With a timeout in place you will be able to log in to check your settings, gaming history or transaction history.

In the case that you feel you may have a problem with gambling or an addiction Fun Casino recommends you to self-exclude instead. A self-exclusion results in a complete lock of your account for the duration of 3 months up to 5 years. Once the self-exclusion is expired you would need to take action to opt in by contacting our trained customers service agents over the telephone. Self-exclusion must be applied in the event of problem gambling only!

To access the self-exclusion section, simply click the button below and follow the steps.

If you do not feel that you have a problem with gambling or an addiction, we strongly advise to use the timeout system as presented above.

--

A clear indicication not to view the service you are using is taken lightly.

So if you register at a casino, cant deposit or play as the onboarding system couldnt verify you. Why would you SE 2 days later, given the above statement? And go to another property of the same group within 5 minutes, to register with your "real" details.

Sorry, but here it stops. as per our terms you are required to provide your details accordingly.
Similar to when you sign up at a casino, you accept their terms which state: provide your details how you sign up at gamstop.

If players start to apply all kind of fuzzyness during registrations, we as providers - cant do anything anymore but just to close the door.

It is simple:
You are a person and you want to make use of the services from a provider, where the provider (for various regulatory but also AML reasons) demands you to provide YOUR details accordingly, why wouldnt you? And why are we to take the blame if you didnt?

Sorry guys, but here I'm confident: Just make sure you enter you details accordingly. Including typo's. It's just a waste of your and MY TIME!

Thanks!

Jan
Click to expand...

Jan, happy to say that L&L passed numerous account opening attempts by me recently as part of the stuff I posted on here. So the system seems to be working perfectly!
 
When I first started to read these types of threads [and the reverse one when they lose and would like their deposits back] I was inclined to give the player the benefit of doubt and think the naysayers were being a tad harsh, but the same stories seem to regurgitate 'oh... I might have made a mistake when I entered my DOB, but everything else was correct' :rolleyes:

I've never entered my birth date incorrectly ever, I think it's impossible to do unless you've got your eyes closed. I now see that some people are trying to play the system and exploit loopholes, but not sure I can condemn them with glee when their story doesn't seem to stand up, as it's all a bit sad and there maybe terrible addiction problems in the background. However Jan's response and replies here have probably been the best I've seen so far in these types of threads: polite, transparent and honest.

I do think a term added to the t&c's to say 'if you exclude from x, this will count as an exclusion from the group which includes a,b,c,d casinos etc..' would be a sensible move to help guard against these situations recurring and the plea of ignorance card being played.
 
I can only speak for myself, but every exclusion I've ever done until GamStop was due to my addiction taking hold. It's absolutely horrible
 
I'd politely ask people not to respond unless really necessary in this thread - I started to try and respond to all the posts, but there's now 40+ responses and this is the only significant amount of time off for most of the next week and L&L Jan would prefer to do this in public (or go to their complaints..and I frankly, I don't trust them)

I have no idea what happened with Fun casino - your support told me that I'd put in the wrong date of birth - of someone aged 18 as I said to you via PM, it would be difficult for me to pass as an 18 year old as much as I would like to. If things don't work then I just move on.

Obviously I'm not going to dox myself, but you can confirm that (a) my name is pretty unique, (b) my address is unique, (c) my email is unique and (d) my telephone number is unique. Whether or not I messed up on date of birth, you systems couldn't pick up that I was the same person..and were reliant on something that is shared by 1/365 of the population? That makes no sense at all.

This is also pretty much irrelevant - I'm not denying that I registered at Fun Casino (I've registered at many tens over the years and keep a few..well two now..that I feel treat their punters well) and I'm not denying that I self-excluded (as I said in the first post) - I've closed accounts / self-excluded at lots of casinos without a problem - honestly if casino managers could make it easier just to close an account and not be spammed then it would make things easier.

The issues are as follows:

When I joined Hypercasino there is next to no indication that the casino is in a group - the only bit that does give you a clue is:

Hyper Casino is owned and operated by L&L Europe Ltd. Northfields App 7, Vjal Indipendenza, Mosta, MST9026, Malta
Click to expand...

at the bottom of a very long page i.e.
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Apparently, I am supposed to go and research this name and see that you are in fact a group and not a single casino. Seriously? As your support said:

We have no requirement or legal obligation to list our sister sites.
Click to expand...

Really? I have no idea about the legality of such things, but is this how you should operate your casino? The whole issue is that you didn't make it clear and I didn't have the first clue because you're more hidden about the fact than bloody Casino Rewards and they're awful.

Secondly, here is what I think is the relevant bit in T&Cs for Hyper Casino:

During your period of self-exclusion, you promise not to circumvent, or to attempt to circumvent, the self-exclusion agreement by attempting to stake using hypercasino.com or our Services, either yourself or using a third party. Any Accounts found to be in breach of a self-exclusion agreement will be closed as soon as they are discovered. Please note that if you access your Account and/or open a new Account during the self-exclusion period by fraudulent means or by deliberately entering incorrect information and our automated checks do not prevent this happening, then we shall have no responsibility or liability to a player or any third party for any gambling activity that takes place (including to return any deposits, winnings or other funds in respect of such activity). Any new Accounts during a self-exclusion agreement will be closed as soon as they are detected by us.
Click to expand...

Again, even if I had read this condition and I knew that it was relevant to me (the 'our services' obviously should say 'our other casinos' or 'our group of casinos') then I wouldn't even be sure that it applies given that I'm not trying to bypass a self-exclusion at hyper casino.

Am I missing another condition here?

Of course, if the situation was reversed and I had played and lost my deposit, there would be no way in hell that you would be going "oh you self-excluded from another casino" and returning my deposit

Honestly, I was binging when I played at your casinos - I do that sometimes when life is hideous - I'll set myself an amount that I can lose and I will play and play and play, then I will stop - I will look at recommended / accredited / etc casinos - I'll grab a bonus and if it plays shit or there's problems with the casino, I'll just move on. I've had really annoying verification processes, I've had casinos delaying payouts, I've had insaaaane bonus requirements etc etc, but Hyper Casino take the cake - expecting the player to research and know about an esoteric condition hidden pages within a pages and pages of T&Cs.
 
When you saw the owned by L&L europe part did you not think to having a quick search of them before giving them your money?

With so many rogue places about research is key and when i say research i mean a quick 30 second google search that would have avoided this scenario.

Id say this group is quickly becoming or possibly has already become the most respected group of casinos on here and they did the right thing here 100%.

Learn from it and move on.
 
JayBe said:
I'd politely ask people not to respond unless really necessary in this thread - I started to try and respond to all the posts, but there's now 40+ responses and this is the only significant amount of time off for most of the next week and L&L Jan would prefer to do this in public (or go to their complaints..and I frankly, I don't trust them)

I have no idea what happened with Fun casino - your support told me that I'd put in the wrong date of birth - of someone aged 18 as I said to you via PM, it would be difficult for me to pass as an 18 year old as much as I would like to. If things don't work then I just move on.

Obviously I'm not going to dox myself, but you can confirm that (a) my name is pretty unique, (b) my address is unique, (c) my email is unique and (d) my telephone number is unique. Whether or not I messed up on date of birth, you systems couldn't pick up that I was the same person..and were reliant on something that is shared by 1/365 of the population? That makes no sense at all.

This is also pretty much irrelevant - I'm not denying that I registered at Fun Casino (I've registered at many tens over the years and keep a few..well two now..that I feel treat their punters well) and I'm not denying that I self-excluded (as I said in the first post) - I've closed accounts / self-excluded at lots of casinos without a problem - honestly if casino managers could make it easier just to close an account and not be spammed then it would make things easier.

The issues are as follows:

When I joined Hypercasino there is next to no indication that the casino is in a group - the only bit that does give you a clue is:



at the bottom of a very long page i.e.
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Apparently, I am supposed to go and research this name and see that you are in fact a group and not a single casino. Seriously? As your support said:



Really? I have no idea about the legality of such things, but is this how you should operate your casino? The whole issue is that you didn't make it clear and I didn't have the first clue because you're more hidden about the fact than bloody Casino Rewards and they're awful.

Secondly, here is what I think is the relevant bit in T&Cs for Hyper Casino:



Again, even if I had read this condition and I knew that it was relevant to me (the 'our services' obviously should say 'our other casinos' or 'our group of casinos') then I wouldn't even be sure that it applies given that I'm not trying to bypass a self-exclusion at hyper casino.

Am I missing another condition here?

Of course, if the situation was reversed and I had played and lost my deposit, there would be no way in hell that you would be going "oh you self-excluded from another casino" and returning my deposit

Honestly, I was binging when I played at your casinos - I do that sometimes when life is hideous - I'll set myself an amount that I can lose and I will play and play and play, then I will stop - I will look at recommended / accredited / etc casinos - I'll grab a bonus and if it plays shit or there's problems with the casino, I'll just move on. I've had really annoying verification processes, I've had casinos delaying payouts, I've had insaaaane bonus requirements etc etc, but Hyper Casino take the cake - expecting the player to research and know about an esoteric condition hidden pages within a pages and pages of T&Cs.
Click to expand...

You are self-excluding willy-nilly yet are "so surprised" that this case, which was bound to happen, indeed did.

You are actually one of the main reasons this SE business has become such a mess. SE is meant for problem gamblers and for nothing else.

According to your post, you did it so many times, then I am sure you know the casino groups very well as otherwise you would have this happen regularly. And out of 100's of UK casinos you register exactly at two L&L brands in a row and that just five minutes after executing an SE at one brand. That is beyond careless.

Sorry no symphaty for being too lazy to click on a single link, read the T&Cs or do a 5-second Google search.

Trying to put the blame and onus on L&L just puts the icing on the cake.
 
mack341 said:
When I first started to read these types of threads [and the reverse one when they lose and would like their deposits back] I was inclined to give the player the benefit of doubt and think the naysayers were being a tad harsh, but the same stories seem to regurgitate 'oh... I might have made a mistake when I entered my DOB, but everything else was correct' :rolleyes:

I've never entered my birth date incorrectly ever, I think it's impossible to do unless you've got your eyes closed. I now see that some people are trying to play the system and exploit loopholes, but not sure I can condemn them with glee when their story doesn't seem to stand up, as it's all a bit sad and there maybe terrible addiction problems in the background. However Jan's response and replies here have probably been the best I've seen so far in these types of threads: polite, transparent and honest.

I do think a term added to the t&c's to say 'if you exclude from x, this will count as an exclusion from the group which includes a,b,c,d casinos etc..' would be a sensible move to help guard against these situations recurring and the plea of ignorance card being played.
Click to expand...

Firstly, I have no idea what happened with the DOB, frankly, I've been blocked from checking and given that these people have nicked £1150 of legitmate winnings from me, I'm not inclined to trust them that I did make a mistake. Again, it makes no difference. I'd already self-excluded. The problem is with the lack of transparancy, something that you seemed to miss.

Secondly, thank you for your faux patronising concern. No I'm not an addict - I binge, but I play within limits when I do. I've had plenty of times when I've lost a fair amount but I'm fine with that as that's legitimately losing. This is not though.

I do think a term added to the t&c's to say 'if you exclude from x, this will count as an exclusion from the group which includes a,b,c,d casinos etc..' would be a sensible move to help guard against these situations recurring and the plea of ignorance card being played.
Click to expand...

Weird, you insult me, then agree with me about the lack of transparency. Well yeah, I agree, they should make it more bloody obvious.
 
JayBe said:
Firstly, I have no idea what happened with the DOB, frankly, I've been blocked from checking and given that these people have nicked £1150 of legitmate winnings from me.
Click to expand...
Again,they havent nicked anything, the winnings were never legitimately yours
 
JayBe said:
Secondly, thank you for your faux patronising concern. No I'm not an addict - I binge, but I play within limits when I do. I've had plenty of times when I've lost a fair amount but I'm fine with
Click to expand...
if you arent an addict and pay within limits, dont use the self exclude if there isnt a poblem
simply dont deposit and play or close your acct
or use the TAB
 

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