Comments Welcome How to make the gambling industry more respectable

[Kroffe]

I disagree with that. The RTP is the return to player, which, I would say, in a comparison to a car is similar to MPG, which I think almost everyone understands at a basic level.

Haha, i had to google "mpg", because in my head mpg connected to file-format and not Miles per gallon.
I blame poor english-skills rather than not understanding the concept.

Its hard learning english for a poor farmboy from Sweden.
I learned all my english from watching Little house on the prairie and reading the english manuals for farming equipment.

 

[dionysus]

I disagree with that. The RTP is the return to player, which, I would say, in a comparison to a car is similar to MPG, which I think almost everyone understands at a basic level.

ok, so, you're essentially agreeing with me on one hand
the information is readily available out there to understand to anyone with an internet connection and, in your words, everyone understands at a basic level - so really 0 reason for the casino to sit down and educate the masses when it's already out there

post the rtp, i agree with that part as ive said

 

[dionysus]

Haha, i had to google "mpg", because in my head mpg connected to file-format and not Miles per gallon.
I blame poor english-skills rather than not understanding the concept.

Its hard learning english for a poor farmboy from Sweden.
I learned all my english from watching Little house on the prairie and reading the english manuals for farming equipment.

took me a second too, as we'd use km per litre

 

[Matti]

Haha, i had to google "mpg", because in my head mpg connected to file-format and not Miles per gallon.
I blame poor english-skills rather than not understanding the concept.

Its hard learning english for a poor farmboy from Sweden.
I learned all my english from watching Little house on the prairie and reading the english manuals for farming equipment.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Not being 'too' greedy is the key to longevity.

Somebody gets it! A basic business principle that has seemingly gone on vacation over recent times. Steady growth and a core of loyal custom is a fundamental to most businesses. Greed always gets punished eventually.

 

[snorky510238]

Somebody gets it! A basic business principle that has seemingly gone on vacation over recent times. Steady growth and a core of loyal custom is a fundamental to most businesses. Greed always gets punished eventually.

Yes unless they are aware that changes are coming regarding max stakes etc and have decided to rob us all blind in the meantime. There’s not a chance games are playing like they were 2 years ago.

 

[goatwack]

The whole industry's built on greed and compulsive addictive behaviours, all they've realised is why let punters lose using current methods, when we can just ramp it up a notch and they won't even care enough to notice.

So merely greedier, from an already obscenely-greedy position

 

[colinsunderland]

ok, so, you're essentially agreeing with me on one hand
the information is readily available out there to understand to anyone with an internet connection and, in your words, everyone understands at a basic level - so really 0 reason for the casino to sit down and educate the masses when it's already out there

post the rtp, i agree with that part as ive said

no, thats the point, everyone doesn't understand at a basic level, I would bet 90% of people who play slots have no idea what RTP is. If they did they wouldn't put a penny in pub slots with 72% or so. I would imagine 90% of people who use forums and suchlike know what RTP is, but not the average punter who sticks £20 a week in to play Starburst.

 

[dionysus]

Quite a lot of people probably don't - but then they probably shouldnt be flogging in twenties if they havent a basic clue about slots.
It takes 15 minutes of basic research (not even) when these people cleatly have enough internet savvy and access to do all the other things like find a casino, register, deposit, spin, upload docs etc
you dont need to join a forum to type into google 'what is casino rtp'?
I just did and it pulled up a zillion easy-to-understand pages
15 minutes or less of reading for something someone wants to spend their time and money on weekly
a little due diligence and self-responsibility go a long way

 

[samdog21]

So first off Canadian input count? Giving it anyway lol. verification mandatory before deposit I do anyway that way one headache out of the way if it's an honest casino . Also mandatory lockwithdraw. Example ojo top accredited casino no lock encourages you to reverse withdrawals not good. My input ty samdog21

 

[Guntis]

The whole industry's built on greed and compulsive addictive behaviours, all they've realised is why let punters lose using current methods, when we can just ramp it up a notch and they won't even care enough to notice.

So merely greedier, from an already obscenely-greedy position

Agree! Also, smarter ones know very well that gambling will exist forever, so they don't have to care about what we seasoned players know and remember.

There are and always will be thousands of new people in the world who open their first online casino accounts without knowing what high/low variance, RTP, Netent or Microgaming even is.

 

[colinsunderland]

Quite a lot of people probably don't - but then they probably shouldnt be flogging in twenties if they havent a basic clue about slots.
It takes 15 minutes of basic research (not even) when these people cleatly have enough internet savvy and access to do all the other things like find a casino, register, deposit, spin, upload docs etc
you dont need to join a forum to type into google 'what is casino rtp'?
I just did and it pulled up a zillion easy-to-understand pages
15 minutes or less of reading for something someone wants to spend their time and money on weekly
a little due diligence and self-responsibility go a long way

And how do you do that if you've never heard of RTP?
Have you ever had a bet on sports events? Can you explain the overround to me without googling it? Even if you can I don't think I know a single person who has a bet on the Grand National once a year who has even heard of it, but it's the same type of thing as the RTP.

You are thinking as someone who has heard of RTP and understands it. People won't google it if they don't know it exists. Lottery scratchcards have an RTP of around 65% in the UK, I can pretty much guarantee, if I stood at a counter and asked everyone what the RTP was on the card they had just bought, the response would be 'R what'?

 

[dionysus]

Also mandatory lockwithdraw. Example ojo top accredited casino no lock encourages you to reverse withdrawals not good. My input ty samdog21

agreed; all WDs should be able to be flushed whilst processing- you click WD, it goes poof! until you get it - it's pretty ridiculous to have to use a TAB to insure you don't reinvest while any WDs are potentially stalled/waiting

And how do you do that if you've never heard of RTP?
Have you ever had a bet on sports events? Can you explain the overround to me without googling it? Even if you can I don't think I know a single person who has a bet on the Grand National once a year who has even heard of it, but it's the same type of thing as the RTP.

You are thinking as someone who has heard of RTP and understands it. People won't google it if they don't know it exists. Lottery scratchcards have an RTP of around 65% in the UK, I can pretty much guarantee, if I stood at a counter and asked everyone what the RTP was on the card they had just bought, the response would be 'R what'?

well, I suppose this is a greater debate (RTP) than Bryan is asking for (though fine to debate it, maybe a new thread)
but I'll step out as no point in belabouring it for the purpsoe of this thead for what's been asked

 

[Guntis]

And how do you do that if you've never heard of RTP?
Have you ever had a bet on sports events? Can you explain the overround to me without googling it? Even if you can I don't think I know a single person who has a bet on the Grand National once a year who has even heard of it, but it's the same type of thing as the RTP.

You are thinking as someone who has heard of RTP and understands it. People won't google it if they don't know it exists. Lottery scratchcards have an RTP of around 65% in the UK, I can pretty much guarantee, if I stood at a counter and asked everyone what the RTP was on the card they had just bought, the response would be 'R what'?

I have asked this question a few people before! But I asked it a bit different way: what are your chances to win on this £1 scratch card? And the answer was always: F..k knows!

I guess, about RTP and what it stands for, not even every Indian knows in an off licence shop

 

[CompleteFailure]

How

Depends on the running costs of the casino, for example, what regulatory framework the site is running under - some countries have much higher taxes than others, and so you may have to run at a lower RTP in order to have a business at all.

How would higher taxes require lower RTP? Taxes are not levied on playthrough. They're levied on net profit. All casinos are trying to maximize profit. It's not like some casinos are leaving profit at the table cause taxes in its jurisdiction are lower while another casino cannot leave any profit cause taxes are higher.

 

[CompleteFailure]

Do away with operator adjustable RTPs.

Do we have a list of providers that do not allow adjustable RTPs?
I know Playngo and RTG do allow it which is why I *never* play those.

 

[CompleteFailure]

Generally RTP isnt that important for small time gamblers, who are the majority.

Whats important is to get paid when you win, without delays and hassle.
No confusing bonus terms.
Good customer service.
Fast and simple kyc, no ridicolous and unrealistic requests.

Worst is when you play, and something thats supposed to be fun ends in a nightmare of requests, doubts and delays.

Fix that, and we are a long way towards what i would say respectable buisness practice.

I got a new request from a casino for "verification." Supposedly they have a duty to make sure the few hundred quid I used to gamble at their casino, were not gotten from ill-gotten sources (I guess selling drugs, weapons, etc.) so they want to see my income statements!

 

[CompleteFailure]

Such information should be displayed clearly on the games screen,maybe with a link that takes you to a full explaination of what rtp and trtp means.
By providing such information then the player is given fair choice to vacate the game or play it.

If reducing rtp on slots is fair,reasonable and justifiable then why did Videoslots go to such great lengths for as long as possible to suppress their reductions on 3 providers rtp's?

Wow, I thought Videoslots were one of the good ones. Their bonuses are even tied to the RTP of the games! Do you have a link to the discussion on this?

And then even Net Ent is altering the RTP now?

 

[Kroffe]

Wow, I thought Videoslots were one of the good ones. Their bonuses are even tied to the RTP of the games! Do you have a link to the discussion on this?

And then even Net Ent is altering the RTP now?

Pretty sure Netent is not offering different rtp-versions of their slots.
Pragmatic Play, Play'n Go, IGT and Red Tiger Gaming are the providers i as a Swede have a lower rtp on.
It is possible that there are more providers offering different rtp-versions now since that thread is a bit old.

This is the link to the thread.

Lower rtp - CM

 

[Kroffe]

Oh, that depends on your definition of Netent i suppose.
They recently bought Red tiger gaming, so in a way, they do offer lower rtp-versions.
But not on the Netent slots, as far as im aware.

 

[CompleteFailure]

Pretty sure Netent is not offering different rtp-versions of their slots.
Pragmatic Play, Play'n Go, IGT and Red Tiger Gaming are the providers i as a Swede have a lower rtp on.
It is possible that there are more providers offering different rtp-versions now since that thread is a bit old.

This is the link to the thread.

Lower rtp - CM

Thank you very much!
I had stopped following news on gambling cause been so busy. Guess players have to be constantly watching the industry in order to not get shafted.

 

[trancemonkey]

How

How would higher taxes require lower RTP? Taxes are not levied on playthrough. They're levied on net profit. All casinos are trying to maximize profit. It's not like some casinos are leaving profit at the table cause taxes in its jurisdiction are lower while another casino cannot leave any profit cause taxes are higher.

That's not true for everywhere... Italy, for example, is a tax on coin in not net profit.

And also, even if it was net profit, the higher the tax on net profit, the lower the RTP would likely need to be (or the lower the profit margin)...

Casinos are businesses, not charities...

 

[CompleteFailure]

That's not true for everywhere... Italy, for example, is a tax on coin in not net profit.

And also, even if it was net profit, the higher the tax on net profit, the lower the RTP would likely need to be (or the lower the profit margin)...

Casinos are businesses, not charities...

For countries, like Italy that makes sense. Amazing that the tax code would work like that.
For the net profit jurisdiction, I suppose it could happen due to competition - no casinos are able to to offer high RTPs cause of the taxes. In a place with lower taxes, the casinos offering higher RTPs drive out the competitors. That's the real explanation. No casino is leaving money on the table cause they are making "enough."

Regardless, it's bad policy of the providers to allow this. When a player choose a game they are choosing based on their past experience playing it and what they have read in affiliate reviews, forums, etc. Their conception of the game is somewhat abstract but it's not based on nothing or zero expectations. It's based on a broad consensus about the games's worth. When a provider allows an operator to choose an inferior version, it's akin to a bait and switch. If a casino cannot offer higher RTP games, they should just choose the lower ones. That would be the ethical thing to do.

Your oft repeated point about "businesses, not charities" is ridiculous. It doesn't mean they can ignore ethical practices. Would you say that about a factory dumping sewage into a lake or a credit card company that hides increased APRs into its terms? I think you've been in the industry too long - clearly your thinking has gone off the rails a bit.

 

[nikantw]

.....For countries, like Italy that makes sense. Amazing that the tax code would work like that.
...

Frankly the only notataxheaven country I know that has only a tax on net profit is Sweden (and I am not 100% sure about that).
You know, when they ask for a 35% of GGR (gross gambling revenue) that could be more than double the size of the net income of the casino!!

 

[CompleteFailure]

Frankly the only notataxheaven country I know that has only a tax on net profit is Sweden (and I am not 100% sure about that).
You know, when they ask for a 35% of GGR (gross gambling revenue) that could be more than double the size of the net income of the casino!!

Your point is well taken.
However, that doesn't mean unethical practice should be tolerated even if they are "you know a business, not a charity."
The casino should choose slots with lower RTPs and not offer the ones with higher RTPs that they cannot afford. The provider should not create new versions of the slots with lower RTPs unless they give them a new name (like Book of the Dead Crap Version). Obviously the RTP is an extremely important part of the game, not just the colors, sounds, features.
If the casino cannot behave ethically and make a profit, then the solution is to close the casino, not fleece the players.

 

[nikantw]

Your point is well taken.
However, that doesn't mean unethical practice should be tolerated even if they are "you know a business, not a charity."
The casino should choose slots with lower RTPs and not offer the ones with higher RTPs that they cannot afford. The provider should not create new versions of the slots with lower RTPs unless they give them a new name (like Book of the Dead Crap Version). Obviously the RTP is an extremely important part of the game, not just the colors, sounds, features.
If the casino cannot behave ethically and make a profit, then the solution is to close the casino, not fleece the players.

I proposed a pop up (like the ones for time spend and money lost) that would say "this game operates at a lower RTP setting of xx.xx%. That means your money will be lost a lot faster than the xx.xx% version."

 

[trancemonkey]

What is unethical about having each casino being able to decide its own RTP for a game?

It's a free market - it's up to each casino what RTP to use, and the players will decide. If the players don't know what the exact RTP is because they don't look, they will still feel the difference - and can then decide where they want to play based on their experience. It is arguable that every game should be displayed on the loading page - and then we don't have this issue. But that only works if all markets have the same tax rules, etc... otherwise it's still arguably unfair.

And with regards to a game having different RTPs at different sites - I pay different prices for exactly the same goods at different supermarkets - are you suggesting that every single price should be exactly the same for the same goods? That doesn't make any sense..

 

[trancemonkey]

Your point is well taken.
However, that doesn't mean unethical practice should be tolerated even if they are "you know a business, not a charity."
The casino should choose slots with lower RTPs and not offer the ones with higher RTPs that they cannot afford. The provider should not create new versions of the slots with lower RTPs unless they give them a new name (like Book of the Dead Crap Version). Obviously the RTP is an extremely important part of the game, not just the colors, sounds, features.
If the casino cannot behave ethically and make a profit, then the solution is to close the casino, not fleece the players.

I love the fact you have such a simplistic view of the whole industry - if only things were that simple

 

[CompleteFailure]

What is unethical about having each casino being able to decide its own RTP for a game?

It's a free market - it's up to each casino what RTP to use, and the players will decide. If the players don't know what the exact RTP is because they don't look, they will still feel the difference - and can then decide where they want to play based on their experience. It is arguable that every game should be displayed on the loading page - and then we don't have this issue. But that only works if all markets have the same tax rules, etc... otherwise it's still arguably unfair.

And with regards to a game having different RTPs at different sites - I pay different prices for exactly the same goods at different supermarkets - are you suggesting that every single price should be exactly the same for the same goods? That doesn't make any sense..

I told you why it's unethical. Can you read?
The player has a concept about the game in their head. That idea comes from their own experience, their friends', affiliate reviews, etc. That informs them about the quality of the product. They normally don't even know what RTP is but they do have a general idea about high paying/low paying slots, good/bad slots. When you change something as important as the RTP, you are essentially changing the slot while not changing its name. You are offering an inferior product packaged as the same one.

Your analogy is awful. Prices are clearly displayed and understood by everyone.

A better analogy would be a pharmaceutical company offers a standard version of their vitamins. Patients use them based on previous health results, recommendations from friends, and from doctors. Then the pharmaceutical company begins offering the "same" vitamin in the same packaging and under the same name for certain pharmacies to sell. On the bottle, in tiny print, is the disclaimer that this version contains half the nutrients. Some pharmacies don't offer any such disclaimer.

Oh, well, it's a business after all, not a charity. It's a free market, so let's trick the customer. You should reread the title of this thread.

 

[trancemonkey]

I told you why it's unethical. Can you read?
The player has a concept about the game in their head. That idea comes from their own experience, their friends', affiliate reviews, etc. That informs them about the quality of the product. They normally don't even know what RTP is but they do have a general idea about high paying/low paying slots, good/bad slots. When you change something as important as the RTP, you are essentially changing the slot while not changing its name. You are offering an inferior product packaged as the same one.

Your analogy is awful. Prices are clearly displayed and understood by everyone.

A better analogy would be a pharmaceutical company offers a standard version of their vitamins. Patients use them based on previous health results, recommendations from friends, and from doctors. Then the pharmaceutical company begins offering the "same" vitamin in the same packaging and under the same name for certain pharmacies to sell. On the bottle, in tiny print, is the disclaimer that this version contains half the nutrients. Some pharmacies don't offer any such disclaimer.

Oh, well, it's a business after all, not a charity. It's a free market, so let's trick the customer. You should reread the title of this thread.

And I told you why I don't think it is unethical AND the prices are shown to people. You choose not to look for the price, that's your fault.

And as I have repeatedly said, I would be all for RTP being much more prominently displayed.

So, thanks for asking, but yes I can read

 

[CompleteFailure]

And I told you why I don't think it is unethical AND the prices are shown to people. You choose not to look for the price, that's your fault.

And as I have repeatedly said, I would be all for RTP being much more prominently displayed.

So, thanks for asking, but yes I can read

Address my analogy. You would certainly lose in any reasonable court. Stick to coding.

 

[trancemonkey]

Address my analogy. You would certainly lose in any reasonable court. Stick to coding.

I wouldn't lose in any court...

It's like the whole "Terms and conditions" crap. No one ever reads them, but not reading them is not an excuse. The information is there whether you choose to look for it or not.

That said, that doesn't mean that what is legal is necessarily moral, and vice versa.

 

[CompleteFailure]

I wouldn't lose in any court...

It's like the whole "Terms and conditions" crap. No one ever reads them, but not reading them is not an excuse. The information is there whether you choose to look for it or not.

That said, that doesn't mean that what is legal is necessarily moral, and vice versa.

(Guy unaware of legislation regarding hidden terms and conditions (eg. in credit cards)).

Do you deny that the casino is packaging an inferior and fundamentally different product as the same one?
Do you know that courts use a "reasonable person" standard?
Do you think that if Book of the Dead had a RTP of 89% it would get rave reviews from players and affilaties? Of course not, everyone would trash it and newbies would not play it. When a newbie opens the game he's expecting the game that got such great reviews, not an altered version which is much worse. This is a simple concept.

 

[trancemonkey]

(Guy unaware of legislation regarding hidden terms and conditions (eg. in credit cards)).

Do you deny that the casino is packaging an inferior and fundamentally different product as the same one?
Do you know that courts use a "reasonable person" standard?
Do you think that if Book of the Dead had a RTP of 89% it would get rave reviews from players and affilaties? Of course not, everyone would trash it and newbies would not play it. When a newbie opens the game he's expecting the game that got such great reviews, not an altered version which is much worse. This is a simple concept.

Do you deny that the casino is packaging an inferior and fundamentally different product as the same one?
YES - the RTP is clearly stated in the help file. I can buy a BMW that looks exactly the same as another BMW, but it has a vastly inferior engine under the hood. But i will repeat, again - it should arguably be made much clearer.

Do you know that courts use a "reasonable person" standard?
YES - seeing as i studied law at college and part of my university course. I know exactly what they would do. I also know exactly how terms and conditions work, and that hidden terms and conditions would not in the slightest way be seen as the same as RTP, which is clearly stated in the help files.

Do you think that if Book of the Dead had a RTP of 89% it would get rave reviews from players and affilaties? Of course not, everyone would trash it and newbies would not play it. When a newbie opens the game he's expecting the game that got such great reviews, not an altered version which is much worse. This is a simple concept.
NO - i think it should be made clear by Affs and whoever else reviews games that games can (and do) have different RTPs, and that you should always a) play at a reputable casino and b) check what the RTP is of the game

Simple concepts really

I think we should just agree that we have different views here, and move on...l

 

[CompleteFailure]

Do you deny that the casino is packaging an inferior and fundamentally different product as the same one?
YES - the RTP is clearly stated in the help file. I can buy a BMW that looks exactly the same as another BMW, but it has a vastly inferior engine under the hood. But i will repeat, again - it should arguably be made much clearer.

Do you know that courts use a "reasonable person" standard?
YES - seeing as i studied law at college and part of my university course. I know exactly what they would do. I also know exactly how terms and conditions work, and that hidden terms and conditions would not in the slightest way be seen as the same as RTP, which is clearly stated in the help files.

Do you think that if Book of the Dead had a RTP of 89% it would get rave reviews from players and affilaties? Of course not, everyone would trash it and newbies would not play it. When a newbie opens the game he's expecting the game that got such great reviews, not an altered version which is much worse. This is a simple concept.
NO - i think it should be made clear by Affs and whoever else reviews games that games can (and do) have different RTPs, and that you should always a) play at a reputable casino and b) check what the RTP is of the game

Simple concepts really

I think we should just agree that we have different views here, and move on...l

I considered the car analogy but it's not similar. Differences in car specs are stated clearly and buyers are keenly aware of these. Again, you have to think about the "reasonable person."

Nope, it's not clearly stated. It's hidden, sometimes never stated. Why does Playngo continue to allow operators who withhold it completely?

Sorry, most affiliates don't even know about this. People on this forum were surprised.

Yes, you should play at a reputable casino and only with reputable providers which is the point. Those providers offering bad slots packaged as good slots are not reputable. Playngo, RTG, Pragmatic, etc.

Think about the pharmacy analogy.

Trance Monkey's Pharmacy - has all the brand name vitamins, with their standard name, in their standard package. But before buying the one recommended by your doctor, you have to read through all the ingredients of each one and compare it to the standard specs (the standard specs of the one that the doctor recommended, if you can find it). For some vitamins, you will find the standard ingredients, but for others you will find that they have been reduced by half. Sometimes you won't find any information.

Would you recommend this crap pharmacy to anyone?

 

[trancemonkey]

I considered the car analogy but it's not similar. Differences in car specs are stated clearly and buyers are keenly aware of these. Again, you have to think about the "reasonable person."

Nope, it's not clearly stated. It's hidden, sometimes never stated. Why does Playngo continue to allow operators who withhold it completely?

Sorry, most affiliates don't even know about this. People on this forum were surprised.

Yes, you should play at a reputable casino and only with reputable providers which is the point. Those providers offering bad slots packaged as good slots are not reputable. Playngo, RTG, Pragmatic, etc.

Think about the pharmacy analogy.

Trance Monkey's Pharmacy - has all the brand name vitamins, with their standard name, in their standard package. But before buying the one recommended by your doctor, you have to read through all the ingredients of each one and compare it to the standard specs (the standard specs of the one that the doctor recommended, if you can find it). For some vitamins, you will find the standard ingredients, but for others you will find that they have been reduced by half. Sometimes you won't find any information.

Would you recommend this crap pharmacy to anyone?

Where are the differences in the car specs clearly stated? In the documentation that comes with the car? So you have to read it? And you have to understand what all the blurb actually means right?

Re: companies not showing the RTP. I would like to see RTP shown at all times, and i guess that these PNG games are not operating under regulations from UKGC, MGA, Alderney or IOM...

My pharmacy sounds kinda cool - and also, isn't what you describe EXACTLY what happens with many, many products that are supposedly the same, but are actually different? How many people are aware of shrinkflation - this is another form of exactly what you are moaning about, so i assume you are also on consumer forums complaining about only getting a 22g packet of crisps intead of 25g?

 

[CompleteFailure]

Where are the differences in the car specs clearly stated? In the documentation that comes with the car? So you have to read it? And you have to understand what all the blurb actually means right?

Re: companies not showing the RTP. I would like to see RTP shown at all times, and i guess that these PNG games are not operating under regulations from UKGC, MGA, Alderney or IOM...

My pharmacy sounds kinda cool - and also, isn't what you describe EXACTLY what happens with many, many products that are supposedly the same, but are actually different? How many people are aware of shrinkflation - this is another form of exactly what you are moaning about, so i assume you are also on consumer forums complaining about only getting a 22g packet of crisps intead of 25g?

LOL, have you every bought a car? The salesman will explain to you carefully the difference in specs. The prices will be different based on that. Everything is extremely clear. Honda doesn't surreptitiously give you have the horsepower, noting it in the fine print (or not at all), while charging you the same price. And your average buyer knows to look for these things.

Ok, so you agree, PNG should be shamed. What are you even arguing about? Rename or disclaimer.

You would recommend your friend to visit your pharmacy and read through all ingredients hoping to get the correct item? Glad I'm not your friend. What about people who have no idea that the pharmacy practices this?

 

[paul7388]

I am so glad we get free prescriptions in Scotland and just hand it over and wait for the pharmacist to give us it.

 

[trancemonkey]

And I'm out...

 

[CompleteFailure]

And I'm out...

Well, to be fair, you did make some good faith arguments. Cheers.

 

[trancemonkey]

Well, to be fair, you did make some good faith arguments. Cheers.

I'm not religious, so I doubt it

 

[CompleteFailure]

Do you think that if Book of the Dead had a RTP of 89% it would get rave reviews from players and affilaties? Of course not, everyone would trash it and newbies would not play it. When a newbie opens the game he's expecting the game that got such great reviews, not an altered version which is much worse. This is a simple concept.
NO - i think it should be made clear by Affs and whoever else reviews games that games can (and do) have different RTPs, and that you should always a) play at a reputable casino and b) check what the RTP is of the game

One last point, often in law, you create the policy that is easiest to enforce. The affs have limited knowledge and there are tons of them. The choke-point is the provider. Responsibility is really provider > operator > aff > player. What an aff can do is not recommend providers that provide wildly different versions of their games. They can say something like: "We don't recommend playing Playngo slots because we cannot tell if their slot games are good or not since they vary dramatically from site to site." The aff yesnocasino.com does this nicely.

 

[goatwack]

To wit, just imagine if the Pharma industry and games providers teamed up.

I could compare labels and get the Bonanza with the highest vitamin D

 

[geordiecolin]

So I presume that having a games rtp highlighted prior to commencing a game is widely agreed upon as good casino practice?

 

[goatwack]

So I presume that having a games rtp highlighted prior to commencing a game is widely agreed upon as good casino practice?

Yes, it's unanimous

Only question remains: on loading screen, big bold writing next to game, or popup box just as you're about to bust

 

[bruinsdude]

One provider, one set or two max of RTP per game, someone put out an APB on the creators of classics like Jurassic Park, Immortal Romance, Raping Rhino etc...lock them away in a lab for a year and see what they come up with. Other than that the industry is what it is. Sadly we live in an electronic age where money laundering and fraud are a real concern so there is no escaping all this SOW and other validation BS that goes on now that never did before....

 

[Slottery]

How many threads still will be hijacked for different RTP discussions? Happy that Bryan had his conference already where he asked feedback, from this mess it would have been impossible to pick. Would it anyhow be possible to remove RTP argues to their own thread where these could be all together or even open new one every time when there is need to speak about it again and again?

Nothing against that topic but it makes some threads very heavy to read when you first spend 20 minutes your time to by trying to find if there are any messages about topic itself or these same arguments. I guess i'm not only one with that opinion, good and important thing to discuss but not in so many threads what some readers constantly look at if there's new interesting posts about topic it was created.

 

[RickyMicky]

Unless I've missed something, casinos - reputable ones - are regulated, and games audited, and by and large, slots provided by third parties

I learned information about the regulation of online casinos and often this is just a formality and nothing more. And there are a huge number of online casinos and many of them are scammers and this is not regulated in any way. I meant it too.

 

[Hydr0]

Do the words ‘gambling’ and ‘respectable’ really belong in the same sentence?

My peers have it covered ....

I’ll add.... Can’t stand multiple clone slots (it’s pure lazy ass marketing), nor free spin offer spam (with max cash out $50) in an effort to lure a player back ( doesn’t work on me, but the intent pisses me off), especially after I’ve dumped many more times that in a single session. Insult. Not respectable.

Oh yeah, and the ridiculous spin speed on some new slots, high variance inclusive (notably betsoft), without the option to slow down. I like to chill when I play slots, and not have my bankroll raped in minutes!

PS: sorry, and credit to, if someone already mentioned at least one of these.

 

[DeidreB]

I would like to understand the whole picture better, RTP is one factor but what are the other factors that influence the outcome, if RTP's can be reduced, what does configurable items like max-coin influence on the outcomes. Recent thread here many players are saying that they just can't win anymore, I am sure all folks who play have this complaint. But I have noticed this, the play seems very circular, no great wins, losses and my sense is that wins are capped at a value of say up to 500...never get much past that. My concern is the control that the casino has, unfortunately it seems to take the fun out of it...not sure if anyone else has noticed this. When the casino can make better predictions on things like player behavior, its an influencing factor but drains all excitement out it...