Comments Welcome How to make the gambling industry more respectable

[Jammie_Ch]

Maybe a lot of opinion leaders could improve public image of this industry.

 

[geordiecolin]

Do away with operator adjustable RTPs.

Spot on.
I find it reprehensible that a casino can adjust a games rtp when they know that most players do not even know what rtp stands for or how it effects them.

Bravo to Netent for refusing to bow to Videoslots wishes in granting them a reduction in their rtp

 

[geordiecolin]

Simple really...

If you need you average RTP to be 96.5%, and some providers with very good games refuse to give you a lower RTP, you run others at a lower RTP to compensate.

Which is a prime example of a casino that fits into the catagory of a casino that feels unrespectable.

A punter joins a casino because they have those said games which are "Very good games" and finds them to be just as good as they do at every other casino they play at regarding gameplay and rtp.
They then jump to a compensating slot/s and get bloody fleeced in no time!
It is not right or fair and nore does it feel "respectable"

 

[trancemonkey]

Which is a prime example of a casino that fits into the catagory of a casino that feels unrespectable.

A punter joins a casino because they have those said games which are "Very good games" and finds them to be just as good as they do at every other casino they play at regarding gameplay and rtp.
They then jump to a compensating slot/s and get bloody fleeced in no time!
It is not right or fair and nore does it feel "respectable"

What slots are the compensating ones?

 

[geordiecolin]

What slots are the compensating ones?

Does it matter?

 

[trancemonkey]

Does it matter?

As they dont exist, yes

 

[geordiecolin]

As they dont exist, yes

You are contradicting your own argument

 

[trancemonkey]

You are contradicting your own argument

How exactly am I contradicting myself?

 

[geordiecolin]

How exactly am I contradicting myself?

Please re read the first quote of yours that I responded to just a few posts up

 

[trancemonkey]

You are confusing compensating games with using lower RTPs across multiple games to compensate for running higher RTPs in some.

The two are completely different.

 

[geordiecolin]

You are confusing compensating games with using lower RTPs across multiple games to compensate for running higher RTPs in some.

The two are completely different.

Your statement advocates balancing out the rtp's of popular games with lowering the usual rtp on others. Right?

 

[trancemonkey]

Your statement advocates balancing out a rtp of popular games with lowering the usual rtp on others. Right?

Advocates.. no. Explains what actually might happen. Yes

But that's just balancing the overall casino economy to make sure that the overall aiming RTP is in line with business requirements.

That is not the same as having rigged/compensated/compenrigged games.

 

[Supababe]

Without wishing to de-rail this important thread, I just thought I would question the last statement above...which is to me, a perfect oxymoron.

to compensate Is to reduce or counteract.

But that's just balancing the overall casino economy to make sure that the overall aiming RTP is in line with business requirements.

Based on this statement, the word ‘compensate’ is used exactly right....

 

[geordiecolin]

Advocates.. no. Explains what actually might happen. Yes

But that's just balancing the overall casino economy to make sure that the overall aiming RTP is in line with business requirements.

That is not the same as having rigged/compensated/compenrigged games.

Are you now suggesting that the same provider refuses to reduce the rtp on their more popular slots but are willing to reduce them on their less popular slots to compensate? <- this as apposed to you meaning reducing other providers rtp to compensate for the provider that refuses to comply with reducing but has great slots?
Your original post did not read that way to me

 

[trancemonkey]

Without wishing to de-rail this important thread, I just thought I would question the last statement above...which is to me, a perfect oxymoron.

to compensate Is to reduce or counteract.



Based on this statement, the word ‘compensate’ is used exactly right....

Yes, I used compensate correctly, but i had the feeling (possibly wrongly) that geordiecolin was taking the use out of context and applying it to the way games behave (I.e game compensation) vs economy compensation.

 

[trancemonkey]

Are you now suggesting that the same provider refuses to reduce the rtp on their more popular slots but are willing to reduce them on their less popular slots to compensate? <- this as apposed to you meaning reducing other providers rtp to compensate for the provider that refuses to comply with reducing but has great slots?
Your original post did not read that way to me

It could be either. Both are feasible.
It depends on many factors...

 

[geordiecolin]

It could be either. Both are feasible.
It depends on many factors...

They may be feasable and ecceptable to you,but to me both scenarios are unfair and are prime examples of why the ability/inability to tamper with rtp and trtp fits into this thread as a prime examply of what is needed to make the industry appear more respectable

 

[trancemonkey]

They may be feasable and ecceptable to you,but to me both scenarios are unfair and are prime examples of why the ability to tamper with rtp and trtp fits into this thread as a prime examply of what is needed to make the industry appear more respectable

You think its unacceptable that a shop sets it's own prices? As long as they tell you the price, what is unacceptable.

Also, as much as I would love the same RTP everywhere, this is simply not feasible or likely. Casinos are businesses. They aren't charities. As long as the RTP is displayed (which they are in most good regulated markets) what exactly is the issue?

 

[geordiecolin]

You think its unacceptable that a shop sets it's own prices? As long as they tell you the price, what is unacceptable.

Also, as much as I would love the same RTP everywhere, this is simply not feasible or likely. Casinos are businesses. They aren't charities. As long as the RTP is displayed (which they are in most good regulated markets) what exactly is the issue?

It's well established that most players do not know what rtp is or where to look for it or what it means to them. Just because the casino provides the slots rtp is enough? Receive the same game play and rtp that you expect at other casinos in a "Good game"only to play at the compensated games only to get fleeced?
Nobodies suggesting the casinos are charities.
Transparency and fairness is key here and such practices are not on the side of the player

 

[trancemonkey]

It's well established that most players do not know what rtp is or where to look for it or what it means to them. Just because the casino provides the slots rtp is enough? Receive the same game play and rtp that you expect at other casinos in a "Good game"only to play at the compensated games only to get fleeced?
Nobodies suggesting the casinos are charities.
Transparency and fairness is key here and such practices are not on the side of the player

So how would you propose to educate the players on RTP? Serious question btw.. Having one RTP is never gonna happen. It's a free market, and also different countries have different taxes so its impossible.

 

[geordiecolin]

So how would you propose to educate the players on RTP? Serious question btw.. Having one RTP is never gonna happen. It's a free market, and also different countries have different taxes so its impossible.

Such information should be displayed clearly on the games screen,maybe with a link that takes you to a full explaination of what rtp and trtp means.
By providing such information then the player is given fair choice to vacate the game or play it.

If reducing rtp on slots is fair,reasonable and justifiable then why did Videoslots go to such great lengths for as long as possible to suppress their reductions on 3 providers rtp's?

 

[Kroffe]

So how would you propose to educate the players on RTP? Serious question btw.. Having one RTP is never gonna happen. It's a free market, and also different countries have different taxes so its impossible.

Maybe regulate it depending on what tax they have?
If they pay x amount of tax, they MUST provide the highest rtp-versions of the slots.
But if they pay x amount of tax, they are allowed x amount of providers with lower rtp.

 

[trancemonkey]

Such information should be displayed clearly on the games screen,maybe with a link that takes you to a full explaination of what rtp and trtp means.
By providing such information then the player is given fair choice to vacate the game or play it.

If reducing rtp on slots is fair,reasonable and justifiable then why did Videoslots go to such great lengths for as long as possible to suppress their reductions on 3 providers rtp's?

How did they suppress it? It's in the help screens right?

 

[trancemonkey]

Maybe regulate it depending on what tax they have?
If they pay x amount of tax, they MUST provide the highest rtp-versions of the slots.
But if they pay x amount of tax, they are allowed x amount of providers with lower rtp.

There are some places in the world, not many, that mandate the RTP. Most just have a minimum...

 

[geordiecolin]

How did they suppress it? It's in the help screens right?

It ended up being on the help screen eventually. Given their ever prescence here they also had every oppertunity to inform us but didn't until challenged. They also suddenly stopped introducing us to their new games which they did once or twice a day-which included each slots rtp- from exactly the day before they introduced their reduction. It took some time before it was rumbled

 

[trancemonkey]

It ended up being on the help screen eventually. Given their ever prescence here they also had every oppertunity to inform us but didn't until challenged. They also suddenly stopped introducing us to their new games which they did once or twice a day-which included each slots rtp- from exactly the day before they introduced their reduction. It took some time before it was rumbled

Well, yes ... I would agree that when asked, casinos should be open.

 

[Supababe]

Unibet are a good example of a fair way to share the rtp.
When you click a game icon a ‘stats’ page is displayed.
It would be nice to see this as an industry standard.

 

[Matti]

I think this thread is de-railing.

My summary of most replies sofar in this thread is that

1. The higher the RTP the more respect the gambling industry will have. National Lotteries normally run at approx 50%. Are they not as respected as casinos who run at approx 96%?
2. The Price/RTP should be the same on a product all over the world, at all retailers, no matter what. This looks to me like something Karl Marx or one of his piers could have written. Would that really be something that earns more respect? I shop at my favorite stores for many reasons. Price is one of several.

My belief is that gaining respect for the industry has nothing to do with price(RTP). I believe it has more to do with how the casinos promote an addictive product and the effort that is put into making sure that no one get's hurt.

At the moment regulators are pushing casinos to have a duty of care for their punters. When all gambling companies realize that this work has to be part of the company genes, and just not being something that you do not to get fined, they will start improving their reputation.

 

[dionysus]

I see both sides here but look at it like this...
why do people see it just as 'some casinos offer a lower rtp' vs 'some casinos offer a higher rtp?
I mean, isnt that what business is? Some places offer better or worse deals or prices - thats why we comparison shop.
If you say casino x shouldnt be allowed to offer the lower rtp, youre also shooting yourself in the foot, because then casino Y cant offer a higher - its puts others as having lower by default if one wants to/can afford to provide the highest rtp

I can look at any three given products; i dont understand all the specs but some vendors offer better perks and higher quality/incentives etc.
All cars must go to X mph? All hot tubs must max at x pumps? Cap laptops at 1 terrabyte?
Noone can offer a better version?

I do agree however, RTP should be clearly and visibly displayed. The fact some or most players dont understand rtp isnt on the casino

 

[bamberfishcake]

Bravo to Netent for refusing to bow to Videoslots wishes in granting them a reduction in their rtp

When did this happen?! Yes, kudos to Netent!

The modern business model squeezes more and more profit every term at the expense of the consumer, not just gambling - nearly every sector is targeted rigorously now. There cant be infinite growth, the bubbles always burst somewhere along the way. Not being 'too' greedy is the key to longevity.

 

[geordiecolin]

I think this thread is de-railing.

My summary of most replies sofar in this thread is that

1. The higher the RTP the more respect the gambling industry will have. National Lotteries normally run at approx 50%. Are they not as respected as casinos who run at approx 96%?
2. The Price/RTP should be the same on a product all over the world, at all retailers, no matter what. This looks to me like something Karl Marx or one of his piers could have written. Would that really be something that earns more respect? I shop at my favorite stores for many reasons. Price is one of several.

My belief is that gaining respect for the industry has nothing to do with price(RTP). I believe it has more to do with how the casinos promote an addictive product and the effort that is put into making sure that no one get's hurt.

At the moment regulators are pushing casinos to have a duty of care for their punters. When all gambling companies realize that this work has to be part of the company genes, and just not being something that you do not to get fined, they will start improving their reputation.

The National Lottery? How can your argument be taken seriously when a casino is purely a buisness and the lottery is a charity?

You seem to be dismissing one concern ( RTP) for your own favoured topic ( "Duty of care" ) when in fact both aspects are important when it comes to casino integrity alongside many other issues

 

[geordiecolin]

I do agree however, RTP should be clearly and visibly displayed. The fact some or most players dont understand rtp isnt on the casino

Snipped

That is the crux of the matter except it should be on the casino to ensure that all players are able to see what the rtp is before deciding to play at game

 

[geordiecolin]

When did this happen?! Yes, kudos to Netent!

The modern business model squeezes more and more profit every term at the expense of the consumer, not just gambling - nearly every sector is targeted rigorously now. There cant be infinite growth, the bubbles always burst somewhere along the way. Not being 'too' greedy is the key to longevity.

If my mammory serves me well it was early this year?

 

[Kroffe]

If my mammory serves me well it was early this year?

They lowered the rtp in Februari i think.
Not sure if that was the date you were after.

 

[geordiecolin]

They lowered the rtp in Februari i think.
Not sure if that was the date you were after.

Your correct,but I never wanted that date

 

[Matti]

The National Lottery? How can your argument be taken seriously when a casino is purely a buisness and the lottery is a charity?

You seem to be dismissing one concern ( RTP) for your own favoured topic ( "Duty of care" ) when in fact both aspects are important when it comes to casino integrity alongside many other issues

Ok, I can see what you mean with business and charity. My point I believe is still valid though. Do you think that the Gambling Industry would be more respected by if casinos decided to run on 97% instead of 96%? My belief is that it wouldn't.

Most people don't even know what RTP is and I can't see that changing something that most people don't even know exist will change the reputation of the gambling industry.

 

[dionysus]

i think, the agreed metric, isnt the rtp percent itself, bur rather, clear and available stated RTP

 

[Kroffe]

Ok, I can see what you mean with business and charity. My point I believe is still valid though. Do you think that the Gambling Industry would be more respected by if casinos decided to run on 97% instead of 96%? My belief is that it wouldn't.

Most people don't even know what RTP is and I can't see that changing something that most people don't even know exist will change the reputation of the gambling industry.

Working towards showing people what rtp is and how it works would atleast give them a reputation-boost in my eyes.
This would make it so people can make more informed choices when choosing what slots to play.
Knowledge is power and all that.

Not that it matters since slots are skill-based anyway.

 

[dionysus]

Working towards showing people what rtp is and how it works would atleast give them a reputation-boost in my eyes.
This would make it so people can make more informed choices when choosing what slots to play.
Knowledge is power and all that.

Not that it matters since slots are skill-based anyway.

i cant see how thats feasible
people want to drive cars
they want a general understanding of cars
but unless its your passion, you cant expect the dealer - or further - the manufactuer, to sit down and explain the mechanics of the car

its on you to surf/google/do your research to grasp the fundamentals

 

[Kroffe]

i cant see how thats feasible
people want to drive cars
they want a general understanding of cars
but unless its your passion, you cant expect the dealer - or further - the manufactuer, to sit down and explain the mechanics of the car

its on you to surf/google/do your research to grasp the fundamentals

But knowing how rtp works is pretty basic, no?
Like changing the oil in your car, or refill anti-freeze. A simple picture on the inside of the hood and you would get it.
I think learning just the basics of what rtp is and what it does wouldnt take much.

And personal responsibility covers alot of the things mentioned in this thread, Maxbets,bonusbuys,deposit-limits,dodgy t&c:s etc.
That doesnt mean those things cannot change/be improved.

 

[goatwack]

Understanding what RTP is and its magical workings is not hard. Even my cat gets it.

And for the 4% of people that don't, common sense dictates what 96% next to a slot would entail. It wouldn't be a review score

 

[geordiecolin]

Ok, I can see what you mean with business and charity. My point I believe is still valid though. Do you think that the Gambling Industry would be more respected by if casinos decided to run on 97% instead of 96%? My belief is that it wouldn't.

Most people don't even know what RTP is and I can't see that changing something that most people don't even know exist will change the reputation of the gambling industry.

I never suggested that the gambling industry would be better respected if they increased the rtp?
I fail to understand any of your arguments

 

[geordiecolin]

i cant see how thats feasible
people want to drive cars
they want a general understanding of cars
but unless its your passion, you cant expect the dealer - or further - the manufactuer, to sit down and explain the mechanics of the car

its on you to surf/google/do your research to grasp the fundamentals

Making such a comparison is utter bollix

 

[dionysus]

Making such a comparison is utter bollix

*shrugs that's your opinion; youre welcome to it

 

[Nordog]

Generally RTP isnt that important for small time gamblers, who are the majority.

Whats important is to get paid when you win, without delays and hassle.
No confusing bonus terms.
Good customer service.
Fast and simple kyc, no ridicolous and unrealistic requests.

Worst is when you play, and something thats supposed to be fun ends in a nightmare of requests, doubts and delays.

Fix that, and we are a long way towards what i would say respectable buisness practice.

 

[Matti]

I never suggested that the gambling industry would be better respected if they increased the rtp?
I fail to understand any of your arguments

The thread title is How to make the gambling industry more respectable.

With that thread title in mind I fail to understand why you and some members have made this thread mostly about RTP since I believe that has very little to do with gaining more respect for the gambling industry.

 

[nikantw]

Most points are valid ..... I just want to say one thing again:
RTP is the most important thing!!

Just imagine a Gemix with 99.90% TRTP!
I get all the points about the RTP and I have analyzed it on the thread on my signature.
But the impact of RTP on your gameplay and psychology is huge! Really huge!

100 spins or 100 million, the impact is always huge. And 100 spins can easily lead to chasing losses and addiction.

 

[geordiecolin]

The thread title is How to make the gambling industry more respectable.

With that thread title in mind I fail to understand why you and some members have made this thread mostly about RTP since I believe that has very little to do with gaining more respect for the gambling industry.

Well,if you fail you fail

 

[geordiecolin]

Most points are valid ..... I just want to say one thing again:
RTP is the most important thing!!

Just imagine a Gemix with 99.90% TRTP!
I get all the points about the RTP and I have analyzed it on the thread on my signature.
But the impact of RTP on your gameplay and psychology is huge! Really huge!

100 spins or 100 million, the impact is always huge. And 100 spins can easily lead to chasing losses and addiction.

It surely is one of the most important things to look for from a respectable casino

 

[colinsunderland]

i cant see how thats feasible
people want to drive cars
they want a general understanding of cars
but unless its your passion, you cant expect the dealer - or further - the manufactuer, to sit down and explain the mechanics of the car

its on you to surf/google/do your research to grasp the fundamentals

I disagree with that. The RTP is the return to player, which, I would say, in a comparison to a car is similar to MPG, which I think almost everyone understands at a basic level.