Hotstreaks Casino - £11,000 voided winnings!

[All-Is-Vanity-underthesun]

Hi, everyone, new here so a strange way to welcome myself.

I used to gamble, but not so much nowadays, probably twice in last 7 years.

I signed up last week to hotstreaks casino and my registration went through as normal. I deposited over a 2 day period and won £11,000 that of which £2500 was my own.

I proceeded to submit all my documentation along with source of funds for verification after the winnings and was greeted with a friendly email stating my verification was successful and that I was free to continue playing on their casino.

I then received a warm email congratulating me on my win. I proceeded to withdraw my winnings and two days passed followed by a short email stating they had closed my account and voided my winnings due to self excluding from one of their sister sites on the grace media network in 2019 and this is active until the 10th December this year. 1 month away!

"We’ve been doing some routine checks and in doing so we noticed that you are linked to a previously self-excluded account on the Grace Media network."

I am about to proceed soon with ADR but in the interim I am interested in your thoughts. I refer below to the fine William Hill and Mr Smith received from the UK Gambling commission for failure to have measures in place to permit entry from those who had unknowingly self excluded from one of their sister sites, let alone being verified successfully.

Please note the paragraph below from UKGC when they fined William Hill.

• Ineffective controls allowed 331 customers to gamble with WHG (International) Limited despite having self-excluded with Mr Green. (WHG (International) Limited)

As some may know the fines for gross negligence were substantial.

I believe hotstreaks have failed to follow the ukgc laws and compliance, they failed to have a system in place to stop me signing up. Furthermore they went on to verify my account successfully.

They are very quick to point out the law whilst breaking it themselves.

If I am to be punished by breaking the rules then I also believe they should be punished for gross negligence.

Consequently the casino site in question I had self excluded from in 2019 called Kerching ceased to trade in 2022.

There is no mention in their T+Cs relating to winnings being voided if one self excluded on their sister sites that which there are over 140 of them apparently..The UKGC noted this also.

I welcome thoughts whilst I build up my case. I also am being guided by the UKGC who are aware of this and have logged a file and asked questions of hot streaks such as how I was able to sign up. Why they had no database in place and how I was able to be verified successfully. Ironically they remain silent here!

This is not just about the money but the gross negligence of hotstreaks that have led me to this situation that should never have occured in the first place. The UKGC state below:
.....

Breaking your self-exclusion agreement​

There may be occasions where customers who have self-excluded are able to gamble. It is the responsibility of the gambling business to put procedures in place to prevent this from happening.

........

No doubt if I had lost the £2500 I would not have known a thing! I smell a rat....I truly believe these tactics are going on far more than anyone can imagine, they know what they are doing and it needs to be addressed.

Thoughts please

 

[snorky510238]

If it happened exactly how you have relayed it, then I think you have a case. There are others on here that are much more experienced and knowledgeable, such as @maxd, @jasonuk and @dunover.

I am just the expert on bent games and cheating providers, such as BTG, BTG and BTG.

Personally, I hope you win the case and get some compensation on top for the stress of it.

These tinpot Casinos need banging to rights and yes, I agree with you when you say, they are doing it purposefully. They know they should have certain things in place but fail to do so, time and again.

Why would they risk a massive fine, if the risk wasn’t worth it, eh? It’s time they had it shoved right where it hurts. This Industry has been mugging players for years.

 

[All-Is-Vanity-underthesun]

If it happened exactly how you have relayed it, then I think you have a case. There are others on here that are much more experienced and knowledgeable, such as @maxd, @jasonuk and @dunover.

I am just the expert on bent games and cheating providers, such as BTG, BTG and BTG.

Personally, I hope you win the case and get some compensation on top for the stress of it.

These tinpot Casinos need banging to rights and yes, I agree with you when you say, they are doing it purposefully. They know they should have certain things in place but fail to do so, time and again.

Why would they risk a massive fine, if the risk wasn’t worth it, eh? It’s time they had it shoved right where it hurts. This Industry has been mugging players for years.

Thank you for your support, and yes, it is exactly as it happened.

The UKGC are on the case and have set up a file of which I can report back with findings and ultimately with the view for them to investigate.

I am asking now because once I start ADR I cannot comment further until the case is closed.

I find these rogue casinos have so much arrogance and they believe they are untouchable. I Am amazed how they only point out the law that suits there viewpoint whilst they continue to merrily break it themselves. It's ironic is it not

The amount of harm this is doing to the individuals can be devastating.

I think of David & Goliath! I cannot fight them alone but by some fortune I have the UKGC on my side and eyebrows have been raised

 

[snorky510238]

Good luck.

 

[jasonuk]

Ah, the classic "sister casino self exclusion" topic...

For background reading, I'm going to refer to a thread from last year where we talked about this in detail - Sister Casino Self-Exclusion: is there really such a thing? - Casinomeister Forum

So we have a few basic facts to establish first:

• From a licensing perspective, Grace Media Limited and Grace Media (Gibraltar) Limited are not necessarily the same entity - the first surrendered
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  in May 2022 and the second was granted
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  in March 2022, although naturally they share many domain names across both brands.
• Your examples above apply to current self-exclusion rules, which have changed considerably since 2019. A key part of that process is that historical exclusions do not automatically apply to new situations and are on a case-by-case basis.

The big question is, what were the terms you agreed to in 2019...

Looking at what else you mentioned...

I believe hotstreaks have failed to follow the ukgc laws and compliance, they failed to have a system in place to stop me signing up. Furthermore they went on to verify my account successfully.

The initial sign-up is trickier given the amount of time elapsed, given one or more pieces of your personal information may have changed. That they verified you then quickly changed their mind when you won big is pretty bad...

They are very quick to point out the law whilst breaking it themselves.

This is probably a contract dispute rather than "the law", but it's worth noting the phrase "all reasonable steps" comes up a lot in that thread... which gives wiggle room to operators.

Consequently the casino site in question I had self excluded from in 2019 called Kerching ceased to trade in 2022.

There is no mention in their T+Cs relating to winnings being voided if one self excluded on their sister sites that which there are over 140 of them apparently..The UKGC noted this also.

This isn't true, the current terms and conditions state, in section 16:

You acknowledge that if you elect to self-exclude you are not permitted to open or use a account that is operated by any company on the Grace Media (Gibraltar) Limited network. If you circumvent the measures that we (or another self-exclusion service such as GAMSTOP) have in place to exclude you and deposit into a account after having elected to self-exclude, all Wagers and winnings made during such time will be void and, subject to our other rights and obligations under these Terms and Conditions, we may refund any amounts that you have deposited during such time to you.

I welcome thoughts whilst I build up my case. I also am being guided by the UKGC who are aware of this and have logged a file and asked questions of hot streaks such as how I was able to sign up. Why they had no database in place and how I was able to be verified successfully. Ironically they remain silent here!

The UKGC will only be interested from a regulatory standpoint, they won't participate in any player dispute.

From an ADR standpoint there will be a few questions on how reasonable this is for the player:

• Are Grace Media (Manchester) and Grace Media (Gibraltar) considered the same licensed entity, and was the player made aware of this?
• Did the casino in question exist at the time of self-exclusion? [Unclear, the active domain was registered in 2022, a possibly related "hotstreak.co.uk" site was registered in 2018]
• Did the player exclude from Kerching, or from the whole group? [It's possible that Grace Media would still have chat logs from those interactions, which would show intent]
• Could Grace Media have reasonably identified the situation earlier and alerted the player?
• What amount is being disputed - if it's the entire balance then ADR is not binding on the casino (because over £10k), if only the winnings then it should be on the operator.

It's not clear cut for either side, and it's one of those tricky situations... I hope it goes well for you at ADR.

 

[All-Is-Vanity-underthesun]

Fantastic advice and a lot to think about. Thank you very much.

Just to confirm, hotstreaks casino was licenced by the UKGC in October 2022.

The winning amount, minus deposits is £8.5k

"Are Grace Media (Manchester) and Grace Media (Gibraltar) considered the same licensed entity, and was the player made aware of this "

I had no idea who they were, no mention at all.

....
The big question is, what were the terms you agreed to in 2019...
.....
This is what they quoted, however was this even the terms of agreement in 2019 or that of 2024

You acknowledge that if you elect to self-exclude you are not permitted to open or use an account that is operated by any company on the Grace Media (Gibraltar) Limited network. If you circumvent the measures that we (or another self-exclusion service such as GAMSTOP) have in place to exclude you and deposit into a account after having elected to self-exclude, all Wagers and winnings made during such time will be void and, subject to our other rights and obligations under these Terms and Conditions, we may refund any amounts that you have deposited during such time to you.

...........

The UKGC is interested in the compliance side and their failings to have a system in place and have asked questions regarding on how I came to be verified.

Adr is to try and get my winnings, both separate as this is not just about the money!

Thank you very much again.

 

[jasonuk]

Just to confirm, hotstreaks casino was licenced by the UKGC in October 2022.

All useful information to put a timeline in place. If the license hadn't changed and that brand was operational in 2019 when you self-excluded from Kerching, then your position would be considerably weaker (as in, close to zero chance) because all the sister brands are on the same license.

A quick scan of the web archive throws up more information:

Kerching is powered by Nektan (Gibraltar)Ltd, licensed by the Government of Gibraltar (RGL No.54) and the UK Gambling Commission (000-039107-R-319400-006).

So this is more significant, the license has 100% changed - because Nektan got into financial difficulties and was

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. The UKGC public registry doesn't provide any historical details on license 39107, but they'll have that on file internally.

The winning amount, minus deposits is £8.5k

To confirm, they have already returned the deposits?

This is what they quoted, however was this even the terms of agreement in 2019 or that of 2024

They look like the ones I posted above, which are from 2024. The question would have been has that changed in the past five years - but since Nektan wasn't part of Grace Media at the time, it's clearly not the version you agreed to.

Unfortunately, the Nektan website used some dynamic loading which the Web Archive couldn't get to... so while the 2019 web page loads, both the terms and the responsible gambling sections do not. If you know of other sites, try plugging them into the web archive and see if you can find terms and conditions from a sister site - it won't be 100% identical, but their B2C sites seem very similar in style so that may be a good guide to what you actually agreed to.

The UKGC is interested in the compliance side and their failings to have a system in place and have asked questions regarding on how I came to be verified.

Adr is to try and get my winnings, both separate as this is not just about the money!

Just be aware that operators can get very pissy when you get the UKGC involved - so if possible deal with ADR first then the UKGC afterwards.

Thank you very much again.

No worries, and good luck.

 

[All-Is-Vanity-underthesun]

"So this is more significant, the license has 100% changed - because Nektan got into financial difficulties and was

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. The UKGC public registry doesn't provide any historical details on license 39107, but they'll have that on file internally."

.............

I trust this information, along with their negligence in that they verified my account after I had won is quite significant in itself?

 

[All-Is-Vanity-underthesun]

Yes, they had refunded £2.5k and I plan to give the final result along with all findings to the UKGC after ADR

 

[All-Is-Vanity-underthesun]

So am I right on saying this was never their sister site in 2019?

 

[dunover]

The crux word here in their terms is 'circumvent' which implicitly says that you falsify or change crucial information - and that doesn't mean just using a different e-mail address, rather a series of actions to reasonably suggest you were trying to bypass their regulatory checks. It may help matters here if you tell us what details i.e. address, number, name spelling etc. you changed since the Kerching date they mention. If materially your details are similar, it would add more weight to your complaint.

 

[All-Is-Vanity-underthesun]

Hi Dunover, goodness I remember you and your username from 7 years or so ago when I used to frequent here under a different user name, I had at the time won over 40k at William Hill on raging rhinos with a £12 bet not that I expect you to remember... lovely to hear from you and your input

My full name and date of birth and email address would ne identical to that at Kerching and I believe this to be the most important! I have moved since 2019 so the address would have changed.

It seems Kerching were never part of the grace media group in 2019 but Nektan as mentioned so I would not have self excluded at any of the grace media sister sites at that time and the terms and conditions they state are irrelevant to me.

I trust this is correct?



Many thanks

 

[jasonuk]

So am I right on saying this was never their sister site in 2019?

I cannot say with 100% certainty, but that appears to be the case. The site joined the Grace Media network in early 2020 - after your self exclusion started.

So their language goes in two directions - the current behaviour where you have an account "on the network" (by acquisition) which is self-excluded, but the historical behaviour where you self-excluded under Nektan and not Grace Media (and whose 2019 terms and conditions we don't currently know).

Also agree with @dunover's point - the more data points that match up (Name, Address, DoB, Email and Phone), the weaker their argument becomes.

 

[All-Is-Vanity-underthesun]

Thank you Jason, my email would also have been the same too,along with full name and date of birth

Really appreciated

 

[All-Is-Vanity-underthesun]

I shall be submitting my ADR through eCogra tomorrow at which point I will not be able to discuss this any further until the outcome.

If there is any further beneficial information prior I would really, really appreciate it or if anyone is skilled enough to know how to go about proposing this for me by DM then that would be amazing.

To confirm they had actually verified my account after my winnings, my full name, email address, date of birth would have been identical to that of Kerching and they also emailed me to congratulate me of my win prior to throwing this spanner in the works.

On a separate issue the UK Gambling Commission are already involved regarding compliance and their failure to put measures in place at sign up and then to further go on to verify me. I believe this is because hot streaks casino simply twisted the truth to fit into their deceitful agenda, how many others have suffered this fate to them, we may never know

Thank you so much

 

[All-Is-Vanity-underthesun]

It has been submitted, thank you for all your help and Investigative work of which I'm truly grateful.

 

[All-Is-Vanity-underthesun]

Below I submit the final report from eCogra along with my response back. I feel I have been totally ignored and extremely unfairly treated, it seems they had no interest in my case but favoured the operator all along! What do you make of this, have I been lied to?
...................

Dispute 47CF99E4-7A9F-4B1F-​

Result: Resolved in favour of the operator

Summary/Comments:The operator acted in accordance with clause 16 of their terms and conditions by closing the consumer’s account, confiscating his winnings and refunding his deposits, as the consumer was linked to a previous self-exclusion which was initiated on the 10th of December 2019. As the registered address, House number, postcode and City of the consumer had changed, it was not detected upon registration by the operator, therefore no further funds are due to the consumer.

Date Closed: 2024/12/13 12:00:00 AM
...............

My response below:
...............
Dear E Cogra,

You have failed to mention that on the 10th December 2019, and at the time of my self exclusion that Kerching Casino was owned by Nektan (Gibraltar) and not Grace Media Limited and that the terms and conditions I had self excluded to were not those of Grace Media Limited as mentioned in your report.

You have failed to mention that Grace Media went on to further verify my account and source of funds successfully after my registration, this is not just an initial registration blip. My name, date of birth, email address has not changed at registration. This is in my view a serious compliance issue separate to my complaint. If I had lost my £2500 I had deposited successfully over days I wonder if grace media would have returned this to me???

You forgot to mention that Grace Media Limited went on to further congratulate me of my winnings in writing after my successful verification.

You forgot to mention that Grace Media Limited had nothing to do with Kerching Casino at the time of my self exclusion which would mean clause 16 of their terms and conditions are not relevant to my case.

You forget to mention that Nektan Gibraltar, a separate operator to Grace Media Limited got into financial difficulties and subsequently sold Kerching Casino to Grace Media in 2020 where there was then a licence change to grace media limited.

I have never self excluded from any grace media limited online casino and my historical self exclusion was with Nektan Gibraltar of which I have provided substantial evidence, along with historical transactions from my bank from December 10th 2019 clearly showing my funds at the time of self exclusion being paid to Nektan Gibraltar and not grace media limited.

I believe you have sided with the operator whilst completely dismissing my case and have not attempted to resolve this fairly but by word of mouth of the operator without being evidence based.

You have provided no documentation or otherwise from the operator that states I was bound to their terms and conditions at the time of self exclusion, that they owned Kerching casino at the time of my self exclusion. Furthermore you incorrectly state Nektan and Grace Media are the same operator and then favour the operator despite Grace Media having nothing to do with my historical self exclusion with Nektan. You have cited their terms and conditions that are irrelevant to me and not what I was bound to by law at the time of my historical self exclusion with Nektan.

You said in an email that Nektan and Grace Media are the same operator. This is totally untrue and makes me question your integrity.

I think you have failed to fairly assess this case and shall report back to the UKGC with your conclusion for them to investigate. You have unfairly sided with Grace Media for reasons unbeknown to me.

 

[conker]

I am sorry to see the outcome of your case has not gone your way @All-Is-Vanity-underthesun

Let us know how you get on with your challenge to the decision made by eCogra. As they are a recognised arbitration service in the UK, there isn't much more beyond them, other than the UKGC (which is unlikely to be much help). The only other thing I can think of is pursuing your claim in the courts, which is time-consuming, stressful, and VERY EXPENSIVE!

For what it is worth, submitting a PAB with Casinomeister is very unlikely to get anywhere, as the casino will most likely revert to the eCogra verdict.

 

[All-Is-Vanity-underthesun]

I am sorry to see the outcome of your case has not gone your way @All-Is-Vanity-underthesun

Let us know how you get on with your challenge to the decision made by eCogra. As they are a recognised arbitration service in the UK, there isn't much more beyond them, other than the UKGC (which is unlikely to be much help). The only other thing I can think of is pursuing your claim in the courts, which is time-consuming, stressful, and VERY EXPENSIVE!

For what it is worth, submitting a PAB with Casinomeister is very unlikely to get anywhere, as the casino will most likely revert to the eCogra verdict.

Thank you, yes I understand everything you say.

My question is despite this does anyone feel I have had the wool pulled over my eyes by ecogra, and, or grace media???you would need to read the final report and my response above.

I feel extremely let down down by ecogra.

Is there anything else I can do at this stage as I believe they have seriously got it wrong, not least stating Nektan Gibraltar and Grace media are the same operator. Please see what they said below.

"In 2019 the operator was trading under Nektan, however they are now trading under Grace Media."

Anyone else that can chime in with thoughts re above?

Many thanks.

 

[All-Is-Vanity-underthesun]

I'm going to proceed with this through the small claims court as I believe in truth and justice. Thank you everyone who chimed in and gave support

 

[All-Is-Vanity-underthesun]

I recently had my winnings of £8500 refused by hotsteak casino (grace media) due to self exclusion on the 10th December 2019 with Kerching Casino. Research showed that at the time of my self exclusion Kerching was run and owned by Nektan Gibraltar prior to Nektan getting into financial difficulty and selling its assets to grace media in 2020. This would mean my historical self exclusion was with Nektan (Gibraltar) and not Grace Media Limited.

Hot streak casino initially registered my account, went on to verify my account successfully and source of funds(after my winnings!) and sent an email to congratulate me of my win before confiscating my winnings.
(My email address, name, date of birth would have been identical at registration) My address had changed.

Ecogra sided with grace media stating their terms and conditions which I believe are not relevant to me, they offered no explanation, did not acknowledge my questions and were no help at all. They said the below prior to final conclusion which is irrelevant as grace media limited and Nektan Gibraltar were never the same operator.
...................,........

"In 2019 the operator was trading under Nektan, however they are now trading under Grace Media."
............................

Would appreciate sound advice from those far more knowledgeable than myself before I pursue this. I feel I have been cheated!

My response to this is below:

1. It is right that I did self exclude on 2019 at Kerching casino under the operator Nektan. I have no issue with this.

The issue is grace media are not telling the whole truth and I have provided substantial information regarding this to do with who they are, and are not, their terms and conditions and my case which is unique in it's own right

I ask therefore that you ask grace media the right questions.

1. Who were Nektan (Gibraltar)?
2. Did Nektan own Kerching casino in 2019 and at the time of my self exclusion?
3. Did Nektan sell Kerching to grace media on or around the 8th January 2020 after financial difficulties?

Once it is understood and established that Nektan and grace media are two separate entities, no correlation between themselves and separate operators we can then ask how grace media are privy to my self exclusion under Nektan.

It then becomes clear that the only reason they have access to my historical self exclusion at Kerching casino with Nektan in 2019 is because of the purchase of Kerching from Nektan in 2020.

Can you see the jigsaw as it is put together?

I have provided strong evidence with the help of information attached here from the UKGC. I have provided historical transactions from my bank account clearly showing payments were made to Nektan (Gibraltar) at the time of my self exclusion.

The question is not as you or Hot streak Casino suggest, did I self exclude at Kerching Casino in 2019 as the answer would be yes, but moreover which operator did I self exclude with and therefore under whose terms and conditions.

Since grace media had not purchased kerching casino at the time of my self exclusion in 2019, are not, and have never been the operator Nektan, they have no claim to my winnings which are legitimate.

I really hope you get the above and I'm sure you will see what I am saying as truth if you look into this.
.............
Knowledge is power, I need good advice and help please, these casinos keep twisting truths and lie and are so corrupt.

 

[SYPlayer95]

Just a question- If you self-exclude from one company and they are bought out by another, does the self-exclusion get carried over to the new operator?
I've also had winnings voided in the past and the eCogra sided with the casino. Albeit, not from self-exclusion.

 

[itsme123]

Is the site you won the money at operating under a different license than the Nektan license number?
If it is different then I don’t see how the exclusion is transferable.
Have you raised a complaint with Ecogra re the way they handled the initial complaint and pointing out the issues you have with their findings? I did this many years ago and the decision was reversed - it was where the Casino had ignored their own T&C’s and it cost me a lot of money.

 

[All-Is-Vanity-underthesun]

I have raised this with eCogra, it has been my argument all along and I have provided ample evidence throughout. They have either not looked at my evidence or just completely ignored it. It feels very corrupt.

There was indeed a licence change, Nektan ran Kerching casino under licence number 39107 in 2019. When grace media purchased the assets of Nektan in 2020 there was a licence change to 56784. Please see attached.

 

[All-Is-Vanity-underthesun]

Just a question- If you self-exclude from one company and they are bought out by another, does the self-exclusion get carried over to the new operator?
I've also had winnings voided in the past and the eCogra sided with the casino. Albeit, not from self-exclusion.

Only if the licence remains the same.