Higher stakes screenshots on various megaways games

[Sasukdcf]

As some of you will have picked up I’m vehement on the fact that the higher stakes you play the less you return on average when hitting features.

I did mention on another post about posting my videos somewhere which I have tried to do but it’s saying file to large so instead I have just posted screenshots of final outcome..

From what I have gathered on these megaways games the average return appears to be around the x80-x100 mark....

All of these are at higher stakes than the average seem to play and are over the past few days.....

 

[Sasukdcf]

I will keep posting them for a little while.. ( bad and good) ( it I get any good!!!!)

 

[Siohmy]

Am I missing something here but isn’t 80-100x pretty much in line with average expectations for this feature. I’m sure someone has said average return for a 12 spin feature on Bonanza was something like 95x stake.

Surely the sheer volume of players at lower stakes would cover a lot of higher wins. Not sure how often a 500x feature win would be expected to land for example. I know I don’t play exhaustively on Bonanza but have played the clones such as Extra Chilli quite a bit and even at £20-30 buys (of which I’ve had quite a few) I’ve hardly ever had a huge win, even with 24 spins. Biggest was admittedly over 500x but that was a one off.

 

[09237653]

This isn't a high stakes thing I play these things on 20p bets and still win sod all.

 

[bingostarr]

I had a nice win the other day!

 

[Harry_BKK]

Slots pay well and poor on any bet size. Can't see a difference, TBH.

Here some of my higher stakes wins:

End result:

Base game hit:

 

[deanus76]

For me I think it's just where you play more often, I normally play in the 40p-£1 stakes so most of my huge wins have been in this Area. I only ever play £2 plus if up or on tilt so the likelihood of a big win is reduced.

 

[Sasukdcf]

couple of nice hits there people....

we can all only go on experience which for me is quite a lot of years and i just feel there is a pattern...
I played some lower stakes today on the new mystery reels megaways.... hit the feature a few times and although nothing spectacular they were all between 50x and 120x stakes with the exception of one.(which was pants)

obviously im aware that people do hit big on bigger stakes i just feel the "average" significantly reduces from personal experience.

I have hit probably 10 or more 1000x features on the megaways games.... not a single time was on anything over £2
and there is no way i play those stakes 10x less frequently.

I have been fairly lucky of late to hit quite a few features cheaply on higher stakes but only 1 has hit what we appear to say is the average sorta wins, none exceed and most are woeful especially as i had 3 features on the bounce on "who wants to file for bankrupty" with 4 feature symbols... all of which were pityful!!

so i thought i would use this almost as a log to see how it tracks, the reason i started it was that i could have posted 20 or more screenshots of pants wins over the past few weeks and not one good one and so i decided to start to screenshot them....
I seem to be in a perpetual cycle at the moment.... deposit a couple of hundred....
win a few nice wins
withdraw the 200 and have a fairly nice pot to start increasing stakes
hit shit features or no features
lose
go to sleep !!!

and repeat...

 

[Sasukdcf]

and in response to the screen shots....
although some nice wins.... you cant see what the stake is on the $13k one im guessing $20 but all the others although nice for sure are only 300-600x wins....

how many people here (and this is a question) have hit £400 wins or more at 40p or £1k or more at £1

cos i have hit them quite a few times and this is sort of my point...
£6k is a nice win but i feel like if you had that same feature on a lower stake the return pro rata would be greater from my experience (ie a big feature on smaller stakes plays a higher xstake, but on larger stakes the amount seems more )

 

[pinnit2014]

and in response to the screen shots....
although some nice wins.... you cant see what the stake is on the $13k one im guessing $20 but all the others although nice for sure are only 300-600x wins....

how many people here (and this is a question) have hit £400 wins or more at 40p or £1k or more at £1

cos i have hit them quite a few times and this is sort of my point...
£6k is a nice win but i feel like if you had that same feature on a lower stake the return pro rata would be greater from my experience (ie a big feature on smaller stakes plays a higher xstake, but on larger stakes the amount seems more )

Thing is, i presume the bulk of folk in here are low-medium rollers: if i've a decent run i will up my stakes to 5-10 quid. But bear in mind that, even if i win 400 off 40p, those 5 quid bets or above may only last 25-50 spins(if i plan on going 150 quid of them). In that time it's going to be very hard to get a. a bonus and then, even if you do, b. a good one.

I would like to take 200k and run with 10 quid bets just to test it, but that's not gonna happen

 

[Sasukdcf]

i get your point but i think it sorta misses mine!!

we all have shit features but its fair to say the community agree that a game like bonanza sits around the 80-120 x mark for a feature....
and i would agree with that .......... on lower stakes....

my experience (and thats why im starting to log it) is that the average decreases significantly... and although its only a starting point on this thread immediately its showing that.... only 1 of the features hits in those margins...

i only tend to stake 100th of my balance ish.... this can be very ish!! however its not hitting the features i have a problem with its making it worth hitting the features !!

as i put on another post a while back.... i hit feature on bonanza first spin having increased to £10

not only that..... i hit 6 golds

not only that i got a repeat early on!! 27 bloody spins..... holy shitballs i thought...

£800!!!

i was gutted....

and this is my thing... £800 for 1 spin is good but in context thats awful and i defy someone playing 40p spin and hitting 27 spins to show me a feature result of £32 which is what it equates too

 

[bingostarr]

Stake on the £13k win was £10 a spin. That's the max on that slot. I wouldn't normally play like that but had some base wins and decided to go for it!

 

[SlotGrinder]

If the avg bonus pay is 100x and the minimum is 0x and the max is potentially uncapped but lets say 3000x then its clear that a large majority of bonuses are going to be below 100x . Would prob be better to quote the median pay than the average .
So if you have like 10 high stakes bonuses then it's pretty easy oddswise for them all to seem subpar .

 

[Sasukdcf]

but in theory its equally as easy for them to be Par or above par! but thats seldom the way....

i have played a couple of low stakes sessions over past couple of days

hit 2 x 500x ish features out of around 5/6 features hit...

only a small sample as features have been few and far between of late but still leans towards to the trend im implying

 

[Sasukdcf]

So decided to play lower stakes for a few days

See what happened ...

 

[Sasukdcf]

And then increased stakes and finally hit a feature with potential..

50 spins with a huge multiplier

So to get back £1k when in essence most of those spins equates to playing at over £100 a spin is bullshit...

On the face of it I won a grand but in reality I got a 100x feature

Yet playing lower stakes there were 300x 500x 750 x all over the show.

No one gonna convince me that the general rule appears that the higher you stake the lower your return from features generally speaking

 

[aceking123]

Hi you have trancemonkey stating that this cannot happen, many players have disputed this over years of playing. Maybe a read of that thread may help.

 

[Sasukdcf]

Read it and had half a discussion about it

Doesnt change the fact that 15 years of playing high stakes and had one decent win that matches the many many many I have had at lower stakes....

I often refer to this but on six appeal I hit a dream feature £20 spin 256 spins with a x27 multiplier so £540 a spin.

Jackpot on this game is 40,000 x line bet so £40k

I hit £8k

I cannot accept if that was at .20p stake it would have been £80 sorry just don’t buy it

 

[nikantw]

The title should change because it doesn't reflect the posts from the OP.
It appears as a screenshot thread but it really is a "slots are rigged" one.

 

[Sasukdcf]

It’s a bit of both but rigged is not the right word... my argument has always been that I think the higher you stake the average feature value drops.

I’m not saying the RTP reduces and despite trancemonkey saying this doesn’t happen and can’t happen it certainly appears to from experience and the fact is that if a player hits a £2K win at £10 stake then they think happy days and all is good but in reality it’s only a 200x win and there are a hell of a lot more examples of bigger wins at lower stakes which I also realise is partly down to more people playing lower stakes...

Myself and a friend played an awful lot on 6 appeal together him on low stakes and me on higher stakes but playing the same percentages so me playing with a £400 pot on £4 for instance and him a £40 pot on .40p

We did this countless times and the result was the same 99/100 times which was he would hit way way more features than me and I would hit more basewins and very very few features and the ones I did hit were fair to poor at best....

My argument has always been that games play differently and that’s all I want to get clarification on..: cos you can see it and it’s blatant... doesn’t mean they are rigged as such but on the same token I think it’s wrong to mask the fact.

And from a casinos point of view you can understand why they may want to limit higher stakes players from hitting big wins... a lucky streak at high stakes could hit them hard...

As a higher stakes player I have swings like we all do but I can literally count on one hand the times I have had a large bankroll...

We are talking years now since I built up a pot and played on and hit anything...

On all my accounts 2k appears to be the limit and from there if I continue at high stakes it just evaporates!!

I tend to withdraw nowadays as I have literally lost count of the times ive spunked a 2-3k bankroll and hit nothing!

 

[SpinUk]

It’s a bit of both but rigged is not the right word... my argument has always been that I think the higher you stake the average feature value drops.

I’m not saying the RTP reduces and despite trancemonkey saying this doesn’t happen and can’t happen it certainly appears to from experience and the fact is that if a player hits a £2K win at £10 stake then they think happy days and all is good but in reality it’s only a 200x win and there are a hell of a lot more examples of bigger wins at lower stakes which I also realise is partly down to more people playing lower stakes...

Myself and a friend played an awful lot on 6 appeal together him on low stakes and me on higher stakes but playing the same percentages so me playing with a £400 pot on £4 for instance and him a £40 pot on .40p

We did this countless times and the result was the same 99/100 times which was he would hit way way more features than me and I would hit more basewins and very very few features and the ones I did hit were fair to poor at best....

My argument has always been that games play differently and that’s all I want to get clarification on..: cos you can see it and it’s blatant... doesn’t mean they are rigged as such but on the same token I think it’s wrong to mask the fact.

And from a casinos point of view you can understand why they may want to limit higher stakes players from hitting big wins... a lucky streak at high stakes could hit them hard...

As a higher stakes player I have swings like we all do but I can literally count on one hand the times I have had a large bankroll...

We are talking years now since I built up a pot and played on and hit anything...

On all my accounts 2k appears to be the limit and from there if I continue at high stakes it just evaporates!!

I tend to withdraw nowadays as I have literally lost count of the times ive spunked a 2-3k bankroll and hit nothing!

I can tell you now that Novomatic games definitely do not reflect this due to plenty of personal and corroborated experience with switching stakes to max stakes when on tilt. The 400-500x wins are still there for sure.

Now as for BTG and others - Microgaming being one....

Is it technically possible to smooth variance on high stakes? Yes
Is it legally possible with careful wordage on the terms and crucially still also maintain RTP? Yes
Can you maintain a legally robust meaning of random and still do this? Yes
Does a dynamic change in output according to betsize that is also in keeping with regulatory rules make the games more attractive to Casinos? Yes
Do you expect any industry professionals to deny it and rely on language semantics to mask its occurence? Yes

So yes, I would be actually be surprised if games designers were not doing this.

 

[Sasukdcf]

Thanks for the reply spinuk.....appreciated

Very interesting points you raise, somewhat better than I have done but in essence they allude to the same thing....

That the simple answer is or maybe is that stake does affect the way a game plays.....

And the x400 x500 I’m not disputing it’s the times x1000+ that appear at .40p and .60p but are nigh on impossible to hit at £10 for instance... and why


Cos a punter hitting a £4000 win at £10 is gonna be happy so why pay him more than we need too....



I’ll tell you why because for the past 20 years the casinos have all said stake is irrelevant to how a game plays
And I’ve always argued it.....

You are the first person I have spoken too that actually seems to agree that it is possible and still just within confines of the rules, although morally totally wrong.


Don’t know if you have ever played white knight....

I was on tilt one night trying to hit the 100,000 JP that never went and ended up playing £40 a spin

I had played it day in day out for 3 years on lower stakes

I had a big pot at the time around £10k

If you hit 4 feature symbols the feature was always good.....

Well I nearly fell off the couch when for the first time ever even though I was £8k down... I hit all 5!!!!

¥1600 just for the feature and 5 symbols must be awesome and at £40 well....

I had hit 4 a couple of times at 10 and 20 and they both paid around 300

And having played it for so long and never hit 5 I was Pretty sure it was the JP as you could only win it in the feature......

Result

£6k total

Total bullshit really as soon after that I hit all 5 again at £1 stake and that returned 1950!!!

 

[trancemonkey]

I can tell you now that Novomatic games definitely do not reflect this due to plenty of personal and corroborated experience with switching stakes to max stakes when on tilt. The 400-500x wins are still there for sure.

Now as for BTG and others - Microgaming being one....

Is it technically possible to smooth variance on high stakes? Yes
Is it legally possible with careful wordage on the terms and crucially still also maintain RTP? Yes
Can you maintain a legally robust meaning of random and still do this? Yes
Does a dynamic change in output according to betsize that is also in keeping with regulatory rules make the games more attractive to Casinos? Yes
Do you expect any industry professionals to deny it and rely on language semantics to mask its occurence? Yes

So yes, I would be actually be surprised if games designers were not doing this.

Then you should get your surprised face ready

 

[trancemonkey]

Thanks for the reply spinuk.....appreciated

Very interesting points you raise, somewhat better than I have done but in essence they allude to the same thing....

That the simple answer is or maybe is that stake does affect the way a game plays.....

And the x400 x500 I’m not disputing it’s the times x1000+ that appear at .40p and .60p but are nigh on impossible to hit at £10 for instance... and why


Cos a punter hitting a £4000 win at £10 is gonna be happy so why pay him more than we need too....



I’ll tell you why because for the past 20 years the casinos have all said stake is irrelevant to how a game plays
And I’ve always argued it.....

You are the first person I have spoken too that actually seems to agree that it is possible and still just within confines of the rules, although morally totally wrong.


Don’t know if you have ever played white knight....

I was on tilt one night trying to hit the 100,000 JP that never went and ended up playing £40 a spin

I had played it day in day out for 3 years on lower stakes

I had a big pot at the time around £10k

If you hit 4 feature symbols the feature was always good.....

Well I nearly fell off the couch when for the first time ever even though I was £8k down... I hit all 5!!!!

¥1600 just for the feature and 5 symbols must be awesome and at £40 well....

I had hit 4 a couple of times at 10 and 20 and they both paid around 300

And having played it for so long and never hit 5 I was Pretty sure it was the JP as you could only win it in the feature......

Result

£6k total

Total bullshit really as soon after that I hit all 5 again at £1 stake and that returned 1950!!!

So you realise features are random right? There is no "guarantee" of a win of a certain size just because you got 5 scatter trigger.

Anyway, let's try a different tack here...

How much of a casinos income, as a percentage, do you think comes from high rollers? Just have a guess. By high rollers, let's assume stakes over 10 quid a spin.

 

[Jono777]

Now hold on just one minute....

Are you not forgetting the pages and pages of proof that all is not what it seems all over the WWW

 

[Jono777]

So you realise features are random right? There is no "guarantee" of a win of a certain size just because you got 5 scatter trigger.

Anyway, let's try a different tack here...

How much of a casinos income, as a percentage, do you think comes from high rollers? Just have a guess. By high rollers, let's assume stakes over 10 quid a spin.

Appreciate not aimed at me but fancied a stab, 10-15% ?

 

[trancemonkey]

Now hold on just one minute....

Are you not forgetting the pages and pages of proof that all is not what it seems all over the WWW

Link me up to them

Then let's discuss the pages and pages of "proof" the world is flat and not round.

 

[dionysus]

Link me up to them

Then let's discuss the pages and pages of "proof" the world is flat and not round.

lmao - i nearly typed an identical response of 'if i had to base my beliefs on internet 'proofs' id fear walking off the edge of the planet'

 

[trancemonkey]

Appreciate not aimed at me but fancied a stab, 10-15% ?

Maybe one of the reps will correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe that around 60 to 80% of a casinos income comes around 10% of its players - namely the high rollers.

So, given that's a fact - why would we be stupid enough to fuck over the high rollers?!

 

[geordiecolin]

Link me up to them

Then let's discuss the pages and pages of "proof" the world is flat and not round.

There are a group of flat Earther's who have set off to find the ends of the Earth and they have passed by my place twice already

 

[geordiecolin]

Maybe one of the reps will correct me if I'm wrong here, but I believe that around 60 to 80% of a casinos income comes around 10% of its players - namely the high rollers.

So, given that's a fact - why would we be stupid enough to fuck over the high rollers?!

Premier League footballers have to do something in their spare time I guess

 

[trancemonkey]

Premier League footballers have to do something in their spare time I guess

There is quite a lot of them, that's for sure

 

[Jono777]

Link me up to them

Then let's discuss the pages and pages of "proof" the world is flat and not round.

lmao - i nearly typed an identical response of 'if i had to base my beliefs on internet 'proofs' id fear walking off the edge of the planet'

Short memories that's for sure

My post about the pages of proof was sarcastic, tongue in cheek aimed at the conspiracy theorists.

If you remember, I was converted to the good side of the force and promised never to make another none evidenced 'rigged' post again, something FWIW, I have stuck to

 

[dionysus]

Short memories that's for sure

My post about the pages of proof was sarcastic, tongue in cheek aimed at the conspiracy theorists.

If you remember, I was converted to the good side of the force and promised never to make another none evidenced 'rigged' post again, something FWIW, I have stuck to

fully thought you were being facetious

 

[paul7388]

Link me up to them

Then let's discuss the pages and pages of "proof" the world is flat and not round.

Well when i look at a map of the world it is flat. But a globe is round.

How do i know what one is really the way the earth looks

 

[geordiecolin]

Well when i look at a map of the world it is flat. But a globe is round.

How do i know what one is really the way the earth looks

Well it has to be that flat one because everybody knows that a man can not really hold the earth up by himself endlessly without having to stop for lunch

 

[trancemonkey]

Short memories that's for sure

My post about the pages of proof was sarcastic, tongue in cheek aimed at the conspiracy theorists.

If you remember, I was converted to the good side of the force and promised never to make another none evidenced 'rigged' post again, something FWIW, I have stuck to

I know mate, but I have to play along sometimes

 

[trancemonkey]

Well it has to be that flat one because everybody knows that a man can not really hold the earth up by himself endlessly without having to stop for lunch

View attachment 107393

Or a piss...

 

[geordiecolin]

Or a piss...

But he is not wearing any undercrackers!

 

[Sasukdcf]

Well your hypothesis is flawed as casinos have been pissing me off for years !!!and I still play and maybe it’s because the higher stakes players are always chasing the dream.

Hand on heart if I hit a big win I would probably call it a day and close All my accounts! And find a new hobby!!

I am surprised at your figures although I have to say over the years that the way I’ve been treated by various VIP teams doesn’t reflect that higher rollers are as important at that..

That’s actually the reason I play at regalwins..:

Not the best site but VIP host is exceptional

Plus I’m gonna win a car tomorrow in their big draw

 

[Sasukdcf]

So what is your response to spinUKs comments,

Is he wrong or does it just not make sense to piss off the higher rollers...


Also please bear in mind that I have a specific gripe as it were and I’m not generically just saying “ slots are rigged” I am saying they appear to be “ adversely skewed “

Taking out luck factor to an extent and just basing on years of playing 100 of thousands of spins, probability would say that I should have hit some higher returns than I’ve had at higher stakes when just doing some simple maths albeit rough... I except I don’t play as much at higher stakes but I’ve played them enough over such a long period that it’s not unreasonable to think I should have had some higher returns on these stakes when I compare to the vast number of big wins I have had at smaller stakes...

 

[Sasukdcf]

Let’s just put a scenario out there and I’ll use my goto game of 6 appeal as I’ve got years of experience on it...

So if we played 100 sessions simultaneously you at .40p stake with a £40.00 starting pot and me playing £10 a spin with a £1000 starting pot.

And we track the following.

How many features are hit.
The average return of feature
Number of 100x and higher features.

You are saying that allowing for variance of a small sample../ there would be no discernible diffenrce between the the 2 stakes and the results??

 

[Sasukdcf]

Oh and one other point

And I quote “ features are random right?”

That’s a bold statement, were you only talking about megaways games or features across the board on all games from all providers?