high rolling does not pay off

Game developers can tell me all they want that games are 100% random - I am convinced they are not!! At the end of the day they will not make money from 0.09 bets!!!! No chance. Certainly not the kind they seem to be making.

Oh, but NotEnt will!

Start DoA with a balance of £4 and play at 0.09 an you will have no trouble at all seeing scatters or a bonus round.

Start DoA with a balance of £25-30 at 0.09 and see how many scatter or bonuses you see...every single time without fail it seems to "counterbalance" what you are trying to do (Which is trying to give yourself more chances at a wildline to put it simply).
 
@jasminebed

You learn something everyday. I didn't know that I had to play through 1x of my deposit until today.

I'm going to keep the deposits at $50. I am up $770 for 2017 and I'm still deciding whether to take my medicine now or resist it for a few more days or even weeks. Problem is, it's tough for an ultra-low roller such as myself to top a 5000x win for $1000. Any "big win" now pales in comparison.
 
Here's my story regarding high rolling since i did it quite a bit in the past.

At the beginning of my online gaming i would almost exclusively play 9-liners - TS1, Spring Break, Ladies Night and Tally Hoo. Deposits would be EUR500 - 1,000 and straight into it with EUR4.50 - 9.00 bets, up to EUR45 if I would have a small winning streak. Not once in the first 7 years would I have enough with one deposit, minimum EUR1,500 - 2,000 would disappear without anything happening whatsoever. Then in 2005 i managed once a withdrawal of EUR15K from just one EUR500 deposit.

Would regularly lose EUR5K in one session with maybe 1x or 2x a bonus round which would hardly pay a few bucks.

Fast forward to 2013, decided to have once a highroller session at 32RED after receiving a huge commission payment. All play was on the Sure Win slot from MG (clone of Loaded). Deposits of AUD1,000 a piece and bets of AUD12.50 - 62.50. TWENTY deposits and AUD20K later I had nothing to show for. No good bonus round, no good base pay, nothing, NADA, not even a small rally in between, money just disappeared. No fun whatsoever.
Next day i returned and stayed firmly between AUD6.25 - 12.50 and recovered 12K from the losses. I went some 600 spins with never more than 30 spins on average between bonus rounds plus plenty of strong 5OAK in the base game. Coincidence?

In my experience, 99% of the times I turn up the bets the slots go "magically" cold and the complete opposite when i go to minimum bet. I remember one session on DOA, 1,000 spins @ 0.09 yielded 102% RTP followed by 500 spins @ 1.80 with a 23% RTP. But in my view, Bonanza is the worst performer when you change from low to higher bets, followed by Buffalo Blitz.

One example: TS2 - play it with $6/spin and it does not show a single scatter or decent pay for 50-100 spins, go down to $0.30 for 5 spins. I guarantee you that you will see on the first spin minimum 1 scatter, often 2 and some good pays within those 5 spins. Never fails. I think that it is programed to give players that psychological "fear" feeling that the slot will hit a bonus round or a good pay, just to make them turn up the bets again. I have no other explanation as it just happens 100% whenever i do it.

Game developers can tell me all they want that games are 100% random - I am convinced they are not!! At the end of the day they will not make money from 0.09 bets!!!! No chance. Certainly not the kind they seem to be making.
Great post that Harry. Also a good read.
The amount of times I've been betting big then dropped stake and hit a bonus is uncountable.
The amount of times I raise stake and hit a bonus can be counted on 2 hands, over years of play.
The other evening I got quite a large balance at casumo,(no bonus) so I played the book and was doing great, I set myself a bottom line cashout and decided upon £4 spins.
Obviously not one decent base game hit or a bonus appeared. I did however cash out 2 decent amounts within a few day period.
Hear what your saying. And clearly you play a lot and have been slotting longer than me, but surely, why would they rig what's guaranteed to give them mega profit anyways?.
I need to have faith when I open a slot and play with my hard earned cash that it's legitimate, if for a second any proof of skullduggery was afoot I'd leave in a moment and never return to online slots.
Again great post and a interesting read.
 
Low roller @ 100 x £1 stake = £100 - to win 1000 x stake costs provider £1000

High roller @ 100 x £20 stake = £2000 - to win 1000 x stake costs provider £20,000

I would think the odds of the bigger win are greatly reduced as the slot would have to accumulate a lot of losses from other people to pay out the sum in keeping with the rtp - well it makes sense to me.

This would also mean slots are not random but play in line with their mathematical monetary availability.

I do, in part, believe the server is more reliant on the outcome than the randomness of the spin.

It makes sense to me but probably not totally clear in what I am trying to get across to everyone else - I work with figures everyday :)
That's a very interesting point indeed.
And I'm no tin foil wearing, trump hating fool either!..
I must say I though I think you may be somwhere right in what you say.
I don't think the slots are rigged in the sense most people like to think, but as you put it there I do think you may possibly have a point. Nice post
 
Generally speaking gambling doesnt pay off. Naturally, highrolling pays off even less :D

Seriously now, the thing with highrolling (anything above min bet for me :D) is that you really need decent bankroll for it because i suspect how having a bad (or horror) session when betting $7 a spin gets to you much quicker than playing on 20c bets does so you are usually more tilt prone too.

Losing 100 bets @ 20c still hurts, especially if your bankroll is small enough, but afterall its just $20. Losing 100-200 $7 bets quickly, with nothing to show of for it is not what most bankroll can endure and its also safe ticket to tiltland and last thing you want to do is play slots when on tilt :cool: I think that was very important thing to consider, even more so because new trend with releasing slots that have like 10-15% hit rate is a thing now.

I rarely bet over 0,60 per spin, and ive still had tons of decent cashouts (obviously not 10k cashouts but im still very happy with it). Heck once i made a mistake and deposited $20 on skillonnet site with some tiny bonus so i couldnt bet higher than 20 cents ! And i managed to cashout $350. by betting 20c for the whole duration of wagering.

My biggest cashout of almost $3k came from $20 deposit and max bet of 0,60 too. Obviously you need to hit some monsters to get there but for all i know if i were betting $1-$2 a spin i might never been able to even get a shot at those 1000x wins at 50c bets so its not that simple really. I also tried playing $1 - $2 from start, several times but i was never able to come close to my lowrolling starts, like ever so i quickly gave up on that idea.

with all that said, i think i just like spinning and i dont really care all that much if my 500x wins were at 30c or $1. Its not like i wouldnt like to win more, but i just dont care enough to raise bets like some other people do. I know it also means im not going to win tens of thousands because of it, but it also means im going to cashout more often and im perfectly happy with it.

i guess i have a perfect screenshot to show how i usually play :p

lowrolly.jpg

now i know that hit would be much better at something like $3,6 but quite often by the time you get a slot going you are good 200-300 bets down before you hit a few consecutive good hits, and most people dont have that big of a bankroll, or that good control to survive through $1k - $2k losses just like that, while losing $40 is something most of us can live with.

Plus i really believe stakes do matter, and until proven otherwise, im sticking with that thought. Im one of those suckers that thinks if somoene wins $1,000,000 on a slot im playing, it would affect my gameplay :)

I know how in theory, stakes shouldnt matter, but im yet to hear about a slot that has negative lifetime RTP (negative from publishers point of view). Imagine someone hitting 5000x-10000x win on $200 bet. Because slots are random and all that.
it would take 5-10 millions of dead 20 cents spins just for that slot to go back to 100% RTP. On the other hand, maybe thats why there are so many dead spins? :D

shit and i just wanted to say how i dont like highrolling. it was supposed to be one line reply. oh well.
 
That's a very interesting point indeed.
And I'm no tin foil wearing, trump hating fool either!..
I must say I though I think you may be somwhere right in what you say.
I don't think the slots are rigged in the sense most people like to think, but as you put it there I do think you may possibly have a point. Nice post

honestly since day one i was pretty much sure how slots are in one way or another compensated or else there would be slots with 750% lifetime RTP and a bunch of smaller casinos would be closing left and right.
 
I cannot get the randomness of any one spin and that the computer has no memory of the previous spin. If spins are so random, and I understand luck has a great deal to do with it as the outcome of the spin is generated as soon as you press the button, but my stats in one casino in particular all sit at between 25%-30% rtp on all games I play, that is just too consistent to indicate being random.

I am not stating anything is rigged but it doesn't add up and I can't make sense of it, even after months, it remains the same ...needless to say I seldom deposit there now except to test the waters so to speak.
 
I meant to make a post with multiquotes and address a number of points.

But I chose to spend my afternoon drinking beer with my housemate. Ten dollars I will never see again, lol.

Still have $100 from my last $60 deposit meant to amuse me all afternoon.

And I find myself reluctant to lose it right now.

So without multiquotes and names, since I'm unwilling to go back and read everything, I'll address a couple of points from my point of view.

Yes, the slots play the the same at different denominations, with a few exceptions, mostly jackpot slots where you must either bet max lines or max bet to qualify. It was one of my earliest questions here at CM when I was pretty new to online. It's common in B&Ms for higher denomination slots to pay better. But unlike a landbased casino, you are not really taking a seat away from someone, which costs physical space. Internet bandwidth is cheap for casinos compared to physical rental space. Not so cheap that Videoslots did not choose to stagger their Weekend Booster or Race Winnings time so every player did not log at once and cause delays and conflicts. IMO a better solution that telling players to clear your cache and cookies when the servers are overloaded. I don't know this for a certain fact, but I rely on sources I consider reliable, coupled with knowledge of programs and servers.

Casinos love low rollers... kind of. Some love us more than others. The casino will make the exact same amount of money from 1000 players playing 20 cents a spin as one player playing 10 spins at $2. There are many more 20 cent players than $2 players.

Slot return to player are rarely just at one casino as far as an individual games goes, there are a few exclusive games at certain casinos.

Low rollers are more likely to take bonuses to extend playtime. Very few bonuses favour the player.

Casinos do not love every low roller. Processing transactions cost money. Some methods cost more than others. For some casinos that means a fee on deposits, on some others a fee on withdrawals, or one free a day/week. I've read far than five stories where low rollers were told by a casino that did not charge fees, that winning $20, withdrawing, and then depositing again within minutes, and then withdrawing, and deposting another ten was not acceptable to continue doing without a charge. It's actually one of the few legitimate reasons to have a pending period IMO (and it should not be lengthy). At a B&M I might cash out from a machine and put the slip in my purse, and use a fresh $20. Some casinos offer a funds in play or main wallet, very useful for players like that.

Casinos love high rollers. Why shouldn't they? If you deposit $100 a day instead of $20, you are 5x as valuable. If you deposit $100 a day betting twenty cents, you are a dream client. You have thousands in play.

The house does not make their money off your deposits, they make it off your bets. And they have many more bets placed than just yours, no matter how much or at what value you play.

Casino slots get close or more than the theorhetical number of spins. Math models are not perfect. About 7 years ago I spent many many hours reading and learning about Pseuodo Randon Number Generators, and spend hours compiling some kind of tutotorial and had a hard drive crash. I certainly did not entirely understand everything. I understood quite a bit about real RNGs having worked with Cryptology during the time of the Gulf War and computer encryption systems.

A million trials is not considered sufficient for a RNG with 10,000 possible outcomes, although should come within a certain range. Games like Thunderstruck have upwards of 5 million combinations, and some of the newer games, I can't do that kind of math.

If a casino wants to fleece their players, they are not doing it by cheating games and RNGs. They are doing it by delayed payouts to prey on gamblers' weaknesses, bonus offers that are flat out disadvangeous, or outright failure to pay.

Players encounter fees too that are not imposed by the casino. So if I'm facing a foreign wire charge of $14, I'm not cashing out $100. Which means I keep playing, and more than likely losing.

I can say with 100 percent certainty if all my bets since winning big last year were at $180 per spin, I'd be broke long before now.

Now that's an individual experience, your mileage may vary.

But I still maintain that once in a while you gotta push it. You planned on losing it in the first place.

If I looked through past records, I could probably tell how many 1000x bets I've had. Never had one 5000x, and I've played a lot for many years. No individual player, no matter how dedicated is going to achieve the TRTP over many millions of spins. And if they did, they are still losing.

I've not found another passtime where I'm likely to have my fun and come out with something once in a while than gambling however. I have no musical talent and can't go busk.

From a casino point of view, those of us betting $2-$5 a spin at times are not even high rollers.

I think we get a fair game to be honest, or I would not have been playing so many years. They provide a service and make money from it, and we pay for it. How much money we pay for it is down to us. But for the casino $100 in bets in the same, whether it is 20 cent bets or $100 bets.

If none of it made any sense to you, it kept me from playing for 2 hours, so I'm already ahead:D
 
I meant to make a post with multiquotes and address a number of points.

But I chose to spend my afternoon drinking beer with my housemate. Ten dollars I will never see again, lol.

Still have $100 from my last $60 deposit meant to amuse me all afternoon.

And I find myself reluctant to lose it right now.

So without multiquotes and names, since I'm unwilling to go back and read everything, I'll address a couple of points from my point of view.

Yes, the slots play the the same at different denominations, with a few exceptions, mostly jackpot slots where you must either bet max lines or max bet to qualify. It was one of my earliest questions here at CM when I was pretty new to online. It's common in B&Ms for higher denomination slots to pay better. But unlike a landbased casino, you are not really taking a seat away from someone, which costs physical space. Internet bandwidth is cheap for casinos compared to physical rental space. Not so cheap that Videoslots did not choose to stagger their Weekend Booster or Race Winnings time so every player did not log at once and cause delays and conflicts. IMO a better solution that telling players to clear your cache and cookies when the servers are overloaded. I don't know this for a certain fact, but I rely on sources I consider reliable, coupled with knowledge of programs and servers.

Casinos love low rollers... kind of. Some love us more than others. The casino will make the exact same amount of money from 1000 players playing 20 cents a spin as one player playing 10 spins at $2. There are many more 20 cent players than $2 players.

Slot return to player are rarely just at one casino as far as an individual games goes, there are a few exclusive games at certain casinos.

Low rollers are more likely to take bonuses to extend playtime. Very few bonuses favour the player.

Casinos do not love every low roller. Processing transactions cost money. Some methods cost more than others. For some casinos that means a fee on deposits, on some others a fee on withdrawals, or one free a day/week. I've read far than five stories where low rollers were told by a casino that did not charge fees, that winning $20, withdrawing, and then depositing again within minutes, and then withdrawing, and deposting another ten was not acceptable to continue doing without a charge. It's actually one of the few legitimate reasons to have a pending period IMO (and it should not be lengthy). At a B&M I might cash out from a machine and put the slip in my purse, and use a fresh $20. Some casinos offer a funds in play or main wallet, very useful for players like that.

Casinos love high rollers. Why shouldn't they? If you deposit $100 a day instead of $20, you are 5x as valuable. If you deposit $100 a day betting twenty cents, you are a dream client. You have thousands in play.

The house does not make their money off your deposits, they make it off your bets. And they have many more bets placed than just yours, no matter how much or at what value you play.

Casino slots get close or more than the theorhetical number of spins. Math models are not perfect. About 7 years ago I spent many many hours reading and learning about Pseuodo Randon Number Generators, and spend hours compiling some kind of tutotorial and had a hard drive crash. I certainly did not entirely understand everything. I understood quite a bit about real RNGs having worked with Cryptology during the time of the Gulf War and computer encryption systems.

A million trials is not considered sufficient for a RNG with 10,000 possible outcomes, although should come within a certain range. Games like Thunderstruck have upwards of 5 million combinations, and some of the newer games, I can't do that kind of math.

If a casino wants to fleece their players, they are not doing it by cheating games and RNGs. They are doing it by delayed payouts to prey on gamblers' weaknesses, bonus offers that are flat out disadvangeous, or outright failure to pay.

Players encounter fees too that are not imposed by the casino. So if I'm facing a foreign wire charge of $14, I'm not cashing out $100. Which means I keep playing, and more than likely losing.

I can say with 100 percent certainty if all my bets since winning big last year were at $180 per spin, I'd be broke long before now.

Now that's an individual experience, your mileage may vary.

But I still maintain that once in a while you gotta push it. You planned on losing it in the first place.

If I looked through past records, I could probably tell how many 1000x bets I've had. Never had one 5000x, and I've played a lot for many years. No individual player, no matter how dedicated is going to achieve the TRTP over many millions of spins. And if they did, they are still losing.

I've not found another passtime where I'm likely to have my fun and come out with something once in a while than gambling however. I have no musical talent and can't go busk.

From a casino point of view, those of us betting $2-$5 a spin at times are not even high rollers.

I think we get a fair game to be honest, or I would not have been playing so many years. They provide a service and make money from it, and we pay for it. How much money we pay for it is down to us. But for the casino $100 in bets in the same, whether it is 20 cent bets or $100 bets.

If none of it made any sense to you, it kept me from playing for 2 hours, so I'm already ahead:D


Sorry Jazzy but I will have to disagree on one point.

A player spinning always at minimum bet will deposit $10 - $20 / day or maybe $50 - $100 on a good day after he/she had a withdrawal --> profit for the casino, let's assume the player manages wagers totaling x10 the deposits = $4.00 - $40.00 if we take an average RTP of 96%.

A medium rolling player will deposit $100 -$200, up to $500 / day --> profit for the casino, again x10 total wagering = $40 - $200.

A high rollers depositing $5K in one day --> profit for the casino, wagers equaling x10 = $2,000

On top, a low roller is more likely to take a bonus with every deposit, which costs the casino a percentage of their profits.

In my view:
- low rollers is more or less a break even for the casino, in many cases it is a loss for the casinos (but good for their popularity as the more players they have the more the word spreads)
- medium rollers pay for all casino overheads
- high rollers - provide the profit

Back to randomness, i stopped posting in Trancemonkeys thread as I got the feeling he became a shill for the industry. Anything even just slightly negative players would bring up would be responded with one of the following: sample too small, players perception, games are tested (not mentioning that the game providers/casino operators are founding members or shareholders of most testing houses or are the main/only customers of them) and a few more.

I presented him with a graph of 50-odd bust outs to prove to him that the games will show you a 2 scatter teaser on the last 10 spins before bust. Answer was of course, sample to small. Well, I meanwhile increased that sample to over 1,000 bust outs (hell of a detective work going through each of my sessions) and the results are exactly the same but I can't bother to post it again as I will get another excuse for an answer. But how can that be random??? How can that happen if not some balance information goes to the game server?? And contrary to what we were told, actually more like it was preached to us for years, there is much more information going to the game server than just a request for a "random" spin result.

It happens even in the Free Battles at VS. Do your 100 spins and if the result is not great, you will see exactly that chance for a bonus round on the last 10 spins whereas you didn't see "diddly squat" in the 30, 40, 50 previous spins.

I might add as my last point: we are talking about an industry that is collecting and analyzing every shred of data / detail they are getting from our activity on the games, be it casinos or game providers.
 
Oh, but NotEnt will!

Start DoA with a balance of £4 and play at 0.09 an you will have no trouble at all seeing scatters or a bonus round.

Start DoA with a balance of £25-30 at 0.09 and see how many scatter or bonuses you see...every single time without fail it seems to "counterbalance" what you are trying to do (Which is trying to give yourself more chances at a wildline to put it simply).

Hell yes, DOA is fantastic to play with $2-3 from some FS as you will mostly get hundreds of spins @ $0.09 from it.
 
One of my theories is that slots change their pay structures to be more volatile at higher stakes meaning they can still display this machine has an RTP of X whilst providing a vastly different game.

According to trancemonkey this would be both entirely possible and entirely legal.

I think slot providers should be forced to make their slot performance data publicly available. I cannot think of a less transparent industry when it comes to financial products. One day in the future we'll look back in amazement at the current regulatory regime.
 
Seriously now, the thing with highrolling (anything above min bet for me :D) is that you really need decent bankroll for it because i suspect how having a bad (or horror) session when betting $7 a spin gets to you much quicker than playing on 20c bets does so you are usually more tilt prone too.

Not just that, but you also have to consider the streaky behaviour of slots and the fact that spreading your deposits across a longer time could influence it as well.

Lets say you have £500 to spare, you deposit it all at once and go in betting lets say £3 a spin, a perfectly average bad streak will annihilate the balance in minutes.

But if you spread those same £500 over 10x £50 deposits over a couple days and only bet £0.30 a spin instead you would need 10 consecutive losing streaks, the risk of which is obviously lower than for just one bad streak.
Of course that comes with the trade off of decimating the max win potential and if that is worth the trade off is another question.
 
Not just that, but you also have to consider the streaky behaviour of slots and the fact that spreading your deposits across a longer time could influence it as well.

Lets say you have £500 to spare, you deposit it all at once and go in betting lets say £3 a spin, a perfectly average bad streak will annihilate the balance in minutes.

But if you spread those same £500 over 10x £50 deposits over a couple days and only bet £0.30 a spin instead you would need 10 consecutive losing streaks, the risk of which is obviously lower than for just one bad streak.
Of course that comes with the trade off of decimating the max win potential and if that is worth the trade off is another question.

Again this would be true for chances ( improving longer play doesn't mean you're going to win just prolongs your time playing you clearly can still bust out even doing this.

problem is providers are & have stated it does not matter what stakes are played in makes no odds on winning or losing, so in theory you could win from the £500 , what us old players are saying is these things don't happen after a awful lot of testing , again impho these higher stakes 99 times out of a 100 always do the same thing dead spin dead spin maybe a odd feature paying well below normal win rate.

Again if you drop the stakes on these slots the game comes alive 8 out of 10 times , its been seen here many many times , take book of dead played this a fair bit now , just before busting out on a £300 quid deposit or more only to get down too last few pence , you try to zero out bang in it comes that feature that you was chasing for the last 20 mins.

This has happened so many times i've lost count , that cannot be just bad luck , i would think there's far more to that.
 
Lower stakes is no better than higher stakes except obviously you're wagering a lot less money and the amount you will lose longterm is directly related to the amount you wager (96% return to player is 96% of how much you wager) so the amount you lose will be less . It doesn't give you a "better chance to win" though . It's the same chance just the amounts involved whether winning or losing are higher with the higher betsize
 
People are blurring 'general slot odds' with 'relative betsize wins'......everyone knows that the house edge wins in the end, that much is certain.

The fact remains that doing e.g 100 spins @ 40p and then doing 100 @ £4 will see your RTP take a predictable pummelling, without fail, every time. It can't just be coincidence when attempting this with real funds. And no, Mickey Mouse Demo Mode doesn't count! :cool:
 
It's easy to lose £50 from a £100 balance at 40p spins in a few hundred spins and getting no bonus . Yes you prob think the slot is cold but it's not remarkable . Now deposit £500 and play it at £4 spins and lose the whole £500 with no bonus you will feel its rigged and slots never pay at higher stakes - even though its actually no different from the 40p spins result

Ive had lots of times where Ive raised my bet and hit a bonus or w/e I don't think it's at all true that slots play so much better at lowstakes :confused:
 
I won $1600 on Jurassic world spending 90 cents about a month ago on Gone Wild, basically first time I have really played them

I double clicked so did not even get the build up, just instantly there it is $1600 that was not there before

Basically every single one of the icons was wild - I do not think I was in a bonus round, just normal play

Thought, gee that was easy, imagine what I can win if I bet $7 a go so did that and lost the lot plus another $1200 on top before I realized that the larger amounts do not really seem to help

The wins just do not seem proportional to the bet size for some reason
 
If you are going to high roll at all do it on quickspin games...frequent pays and no games with the masses of potential(providers like N-E,MG,Playngo etc have) so you can usually expect a decent bonus every 3rd one...
 
high balling is not for the weak of heart,I do anywhere from $1 to $100,I can tell you my runs on $100 or anywhere near it suck then lower your bet to $1 and magic hits for 5 bucks lol.It's all entertainment so if dont like it dont play i guess,but random and they dont know what bet you playing is a joke and the think we are stupid
 

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