GVC - Coral and Galacasino showing the wrong RTP to players, possible breach of license

[paul7388]

Some might not agree but I do genuinely feel it was a mistake on their behalf albeit quite a serious one.
But I do not think it was done intentionally to rip any customers of.
Thanks for all the information and work Colin and everyone else that helped.
Wonder if this means everyone that played their slots will now get an apology email. Time will tell. To be honest after reading on here I knew they were running lower than advertised RTP slots but I still played them as I like Coral and did as well on them as I would have on the higher RTP slots.

 

[metaxa]

Some might not agree but I do genuinely feel it was a mistake on their behalf albeit quite a serious one.
But I do not think it was done intentionally to rip any customers of.

It may be true, that it was a genuine mistake.
But another example of a mistake to the disadvantage to the players. I still wait to see for a "mistake", where players benefited. For example, saying to run the slots at 94%, when they are running at 96%.

 

[shadow123]

Wish I hadnt closed down my Coral account now, would have been interesting to see how much I staked
on the affected games.Think the least I am due is an apology though.

 

[colinsunderland]

Some might not agree but I do genuinely feel it was a mistake on their behalf albeit quite a serious one.
But I do not think it was done intentionally to rip any customers of.
Thanks for all the information and work Colin and everyone else that helped.
Wonder if this means everyone that played their slots will now get an apology email. Time will tell. To be honest after reading on here I knew they were running lower than advertised RTP slots but I still played them as I like Coral and did as well on them as I would have on the higher RTP slots.

Quite possibly, however some things aggravate that, while initially it may be have been a mistake

Adding game(s) listing the 96% RTP over a month after the default setting was changed to 94%
Being lied to that the RTP hadn't changed
Many many lies by customer service about numerous other things

all mean that the mistake took a lot longer to fix than it should have been, all the time, the customers being mislead.

Live chat seem to have a culture of lying to customers. I know that will be denied by them, but the fact is I have been lied to numerous times by numerous CS operators over the past month. The chat where I was telling them I had been sent someone elses details, is quite possibly the worst live chat I have had with anyone, at any company, since the internet started!

 

[nufc 1892]

i have fell victim i played there on the 2nd feb and checked the rtp of book of dead and legacy of dead lost over 200 pounds in that seesion but to now find out they done this im shocked

 

[colinsunderland]

i have fell victim i played there on the 2nd feb and checked the rtp of book of dead and legacy of dead lost over 200 pounds in that seesion but to now find out they done this im shocked

I would suggest you complain that you have been mislead, see what live chat say. If they lie, which I'm sure they will, feel free to post up the chat log, removing any personal details, and the rep will likely deal with it when he addresses the thread.

 

[Slottery]

Email usually is better way to claim complaints if you want to get it done, live chat can forward your complaint to their relevant department but usually using own words in email is much more efficient than explaining something in live chat and leave it to them to escalate with their own words.

If intention is to get live chat with some incorrect information and post it here, then that of course works best but filing complaint via live wouldn't be my first option if email is available.

 

[colinsunderland]

Email usually is better way to claim complaints if you want to get it done, live chat can forward your complaint to their relevant department but usually using own words in email is much more efficient than explaining something in live chat and leave it to them to escalate with their own words.

If intention is to get live chat with some incorrect information and post it here, then that of course works best but filing complaint via live wouldn't be my first option if email is available.

You haven't dealt with Coal via email have you. The same team who do live chat do emails, heres how it goes.....every single time

1. email them
2. 3-5 days later get an email asking for your username and date of birth, even when you have already supplied them in your first email
3. 3-5 days later get a generic response that has nothing to do with what you asked
4. 3-5 days later repeat 3
5. get mad and go to live chat

 

[Slottery]

If you send your complaint as a one email, you still have much better chance to get it sorted than trying to explain whole story with details in live chat, don't really know any casino who do deal complaints via live chat instead of email. Usually all ending up by asking you to send all details in email.

If not happy to reply, they should have ADR service who can help further. Don't really see much sense to try to get compensation about this through live chat. First email to casino where stating that next one is going to ADR and once getting reply, all there and sit down and wait.

Much less hassle and wasted time.

 

[colinsunderland]

If you send your complaint as a one email, you still have much better chance to get it sorted than trying to explain whole story with details in live chat, don't really know any casino who do deal complaints via live chat instead of email. Usually all ending up by asking you to send all details in email.

If not happy to reply, they should have ADR service who can help further. Don't really see much sense to try to get compensation about this through live chat. First email to casino where stating that next one is going to ADR and once getting reply, all there and sit down and wait.

Much less hassle and wasted time.

No one mentioned compensation?
With Coral you don't, email support is terrible just as live chat. At least on live chat you can get through certain things in 20 minutes, which would take days via email.

 

[Borgie]

If you send your complaint as a one email, you still have much better chance to get it sorted than trying to explain whole story with details in live chat, don't really know any casino who do deal complaints via live chat instead of email. Usually all ending up by asking you to send all details in email.

If not happy to reply, they should have ADR service who can help further. Don't really see much sense to try to get compensation about this through live chat. First email to casino where stating that next one is going to ADR and once getting reply, all there and sit down and wait.

Much less hassle and wasted time.

Not sure how this can be said if you read colins response above. It's almost like all the relevant bits of what he said have been disregarded.

 

[shadow123]

The question of compensation, if they deciede to do it, is going to be a tricky one,
how do you work out how much a player has lost through reduced rtp,
Its possible to argue that even if a player has won playing the affected games,it has still
cost them money as extra 2% has been charged on every play so winning or losing is not really
a factor.
The only fair way would be to add up all the wagers on each individual game (bear in mind that the difference
in the rake will not the same on all the games) and calculate the overcharge factor.Good luck trying to
work that one out.
If they do compensate on that basis, i will be claiming as I lost a lot in a very short period playing play and go
and red tigers there and ended up SE with them as i so fed up with losing.

 

[Borgie]

Duplicate

 

[Slottery]

Thought that poster who mentioned is victim could want to ask something like that. If willing to complaint that they have had mixed information about some slots in their site, what you would expect live chat to do?

If really willing to claim complaint, email is only prober way to do it, if just willing to chat with somebody, that's different.

Really can't think anything live chat could assist in this one.

edit: if reply is not satisfying, then ADR who they use.

 

[EkJR]

Some might not agree but I do genuinely feel it was a mistake on their behalf albeit quite a serious one.
But I do not think it was done intentionally to rip any customers of.
Thanks for all the information and work Colin and everyone else that helped.
Wonder if this means everyone that played their slots will now get an apology email. Time will tell. To be honest after reading on here I knew they were running lower than advertised RTP slots but I still played them as I like Coral and did as well on them as I would have on the higher RTP slots.

Disagree. Coral are, in my opinion and experience, a bunch of absolute scam artists. Lying to players, removing cashout options on coupons constantly, terrible customer service, shocking responsible gaming and data protection issues. This is just the icing on the cake for me.

 

[paul7388]

Disagree. Coral are, in my opinion and experience, a bunch of absolute scam artists. Lying to players, removing cashout options on coupons constantly, terrible customer service, shocking responsible gaming and data protection issues. This is just the icing on the cake for me.

Well that is your opinion which you are welcome to.

But i disagree that they deliberately set out to rip people off. Don't somehow think they sat in the boardroom and went hey great idea let's run games on a lower RTP and change the help files to higher RTP to screw players out of money.

 

[lewisnadasurf]

Disagree. Coral are, in my opinion and experience, a bunch of absolute scam artists. Lying to players, removing cashout options on coupons constantly, terrible customer service, shocking responsible gaming and data protection issues. This is just the icing on the cake for me.

can I just say the conception of the cash out “you removed the game so it’s on the fiddle”

cash Outs are suspended all the time either due to a goal, corner, chance, red card or whatever. Also bookies rely on the data from scouts at the game. If the Scout doesn’t make it or has technical issues then the game is suspended. Therefore will likely suspend your bet.

bookmakers offer cash out because there is somethting
In it for them. They want it to work.
Sorry for going off topic

 

[Mr_Slot5]

I still stand my view that all slot games should run at one set RTP. I don't subscribe to this view that market conditions require the use of lower RTP settings. How come some operators can and have managed just fine on the higher RTP settings whilst facing the same market conditions?

IMO when you give the option of lower RTP, you set in action a race to the bottom- the operators using the higher settings see the ones using the lower settings making more profit and think 'I'll have a bit of that'.

I love Play n Go slots...they're my favourite provider...but I simply cannot defend their decision to offer slots in the 80s% RTP range.

 

[EkJR]

can I just say the conception of the cash out “you removed the game so it’s on the fiddle”

cash Outs are suspended all the time either due to a goal, corner, chance, red card or whatever. Also bookies rely on the data from scouts at the game. If the Scout doesn’t make it or has technical issues then the game is suspended. Therefore will likely suspend your bet.

bookmakers offer cash out because there is somethting
In it for them. They want it to work.
Sorry for going off topic

If you have ever seen the Coral cashout compared to Bet365 or someone of that ilk you will notice a substantial difference.

 

[Jono777]

Well that is your opinion which you are welcome to.

But i disagree that they deliberately set out to rip people off. Don't somehow think they sat in the boardroom and went hey great idea let's run games on a lower RTP and change the help files to higher RTP to screw players out of money.

Have to agree.

Most likely a case of gross incompetence (which bookies in general seem to have an abundance of, especially when it comes to online) rather than anything deliberately sinister.

*Not read whole thread, skimmed it.

 

[lewisnadasurf]

If you have ever seen the Coral cashout compared to Bet365 or someone of that ilk you will notice a substantial difference.

yep. I can’t disagree.Bet365 are no doubt best and biggest for sports betting

 

[geordiecolin]

The problem with this is that if it can happen once it can happen again. (And who knows, maybe other casinos are doing it right now.)

Having help files externally to the game itself is simply a bad idea, and clearly open to error, either deliberate or accidental.

Bake the actual running RTP of the slot into the game itself, simple as that.

I have been banging on for the introduction of more transparency of RTP's on slots for years. Some members of this site even railed against the idea to the point of almost ridicule of the need. I find it shocking that such members could hold such a stance given the evidence and implications.

 

[geordiecolin]

Just got this email from Coral Complaints


We are writing further to you, in relation to your complaint about the RTP's of some of our games.

Due to the serious nature of this issue we would like to provide you with a current update to our investigation.

• We were made of the issue on Monday off the back of your communication.
• We have instructed the removal of all games pending thorough investigation and checks for the issues you raised; The Autoplay loss limit, the help files for both Play N Go and Red Tiger.
• We will be communicating to any players effected by these issues this week.
• There was and would never be any intentional attempt to mislead players in the ways you have described; we are one of the biggest Gaming companies operating in the UK and the actions described would definitely be counter to the way we conduct our operations.

In the meantime, should you wish to clarify anything further, please do not hesitate to contact us via this email address. 

Kind Regards,

Before you provide clarify anything further for them maybe you should bill them for services already rendered?

 

[colinsunderland]

can I just say the conception of the cash out “you removed the game so it’s on the fiddle”

cash Outs are suspended all the time either due to a goal, corner, chance, red card or whatever. Also bookies rely on the data from scouts at the game. If the Scout doesn’t make it or has technical issues then the game is suspended. Therefore will likely suspend your bet.

bookmakers offer cash out because there is somethting
In it for them. They want it to work.
Sorry for going off topic

Unless they are Coral, then they seem to suspend it at a point where a lot of cashouts would happen.

Sorry but just look through the Coral Twitter feed and see how oftem on a Saturday afternoon, or a midweek night where there are a lot of games, where ALL games are suspended for 15-20 mins or more. There can regularly be 100+ games all suspended at the same time, all support say is that cash out isn't guaranteed and you shouldn't be relying on it. Whilst thats true, Coral also shouldn't advertise it if they are going to suspend all markets for most the game.

 

[lewisnadasurf]

Unless they are Coral, then they seem to suspend it at a point where a lot of cashouts would happen.

Sorry but just look through the Coral Twitter feed and see how oftem on a Saturday afternoon, or a midweek night where there are a lot of games, where ALL games are suspended for 15-20 mins or more. There can regularly be 100+ games all suspended at the same time, all support say is that cash out isn't guaranteed and you shouldn't be relying on it. Whilst thats true, Coral also shouldn't advertise it if they are going to suspend all markets for most the game.

again I can’t disagree. But the guy I originally replied to stated it was a “scam”

the techncial issues is what your post alludes to. Which by the sounds of it, it is

 

[colinsunderland]

again I can’t disagree. But the guy I originally replied to stated it was a “scam”

the techncial issues is what your post alludes to. Which by the sounds of it, it is

Which have been ongoing for years, its no wonder people think they are a scam when it happens so often. Any site can have technical issues once in a while, Coral have weeks when it works once in a while.
I rarely cashout, as I think its stacked in the bookies favour, but on the odd occasion I think I might want to, then I don't even consider putting the bet on at Coral as I know, chances are it won't be available. B365, PP/BF and Skybet tend to offer much higher values too.

 

[paul7388]

Guess it depends on what games you are betting on.

I only use WH. Coral and PP for football bet's and in my experience even tho i do not cashout Coral seems to be available most of the time.

Also Coral compared to WH seems to be a more accurate offer. You can have all your teams winning with 5 minutes to go and be offered £190 for a £200 win at Coral whereas same bet at WH is offering something like £140.

But again that is just my experience.

 

[EkJR]

again I can’t disagree. But the guy I originally replied to stated it was a “scam”

the techncial issues is what your post alludes to. Which by the sounds of it, it is

No I said Coral themselves are, in my opinion, a scam operator in general. In terms of the cashouts, they are hardly ever available on Coral. If you compare and contrast to other bookies....even my most hated one...William Hill..then its night and day! As Colin says, be as well not having it as its constantly suspended.

This company lied to me for 9 months over a £300 win which they made up another value for when a game crashed. Only when Blueprint clarified it did the truth come out. Honest as they come....

 

[colinsunderland]

Book of Dead removed again from Coral, possibly to do with the autoplay settings?

 

[colinsunderland]

Another outstanding promotion from Coral

Click Play here, takes you to homepage
No problem, search for 'John' no results found

• Razelle You can search it on slots games Colin. As i can see it was a slot game.23:57
• Razelle Is there anything else I can help you with today Colin?23:57
• You no you cant, it shows no results
  23:58
• Razelle Upon checking here. we have a "scarabs" game but not a John that you were referring.23:59
• You I know. So how does someone take part in your promo you are advertising 00:00
• This conversation ended at 00:03.

Yet another mistake it seems, Sometimes too many mistakes have to be classed as deliberate even though you think they aren't. Notice how live chat closed the connect, they are very good at that when you ask something they don't want to answer.

 

[goatwack]

Bloody hell. Coral are more annoying than the Peloton adverts

 

[colinsunderland]

Bloody hell. Coral are more annoying than the Peloton adverts

To be fair, the others are there, but not the one advertised in the banner!

 

[colinsunderland]

You genuinely couldn't be more incompetent if you tried.
Coywolf has had its helpfile upgraded and 'fixed' at Gala, now shows 94% RTP. Excellent at last.
Oh wait, whats that, the actual RTP the 94% version is running 94.30%

Real RTP

WTG GVC.

 

[goatwack]

Not bad. At least they didn't put 49.30%

 

[pinnit2014]

Not bad. At least they didn't put 49.30%

That's probably what it's really set at.

The hidden gem of RTP settings.

 

[Harry_BKK]

You genuinely couldn't be more incompetent if you tried.
Coywolf has had its helpfile upgraded and 'fixed' at Gala, now shows 94% RTP. Excellent at last.
Oh wait, whats that, the actual RTP the 94% version is running 94.30%

View attachment 123523

Real RTP

View attachment 123524

WTG GVC.

That shows the incompetence at CORAL.

Play'n GO indeed categorizes the RTP settings like this: configuration 96, 94, 91, 87, 84..... but the actual numbers are 96.xx, 94.xx etc.

Here's the excerpt for Coywolf Cash

 

[ChopleyIOM]

EVIDENCE FOR THE PROSECUTION THAT CASINOS MUST NOT BE ALLOWED TO WRITE THEIR OWN HELP FILES - CORAL/GALA

The prosecution rests.

 

[EkJR]

Yet more evidence of gross incompetence from this operator! It is absolutely no surprise though. Out of interest do we know the original date of the change in RTP and this issue?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yet more evidence of gross incompetence from this operator! It is absolutely no surprise though. Out of interest do we know the original date of the change in RTP and this issue?

Erm, just read the first post in this thread dude.

 

[EkJR]

Erm, just read the first post in this thread dude.

Cheers mate! Wasnt sure if December or Jan. Cheers

 

[mack341]

I'd like the ukgc to ask coral the reason why they removed the internal PnG help file in the first place? Not in an accusatory way, just what's the thinking there?

I'm tab'd out of there for few more days, so can't check myself, but does pressing the help button on other slots [netent, wms] send you to the coral help file or to the inbuilt slot maker's one? [I know Chop explained red tiger has both options]

 

[ChopleyIOM]

As far as I can tell, on other slots you get the developer's own help file, but Coral still have their own help file in their help section. (This is why they were showing two different RTPs for the same Red Tiger game, for example.)

The problem with PNG is that the help files are called externally from the game itself, and Coral have replaced the PNG URL with a link to their own help files.

This can't happen on, for example, NetEnt games because the help files are 'baked in' to the game.

 

[mack341]

Right so it might have been some sort of internet security measure. so that everything, as much as possible, is contained within the coral site?

 

[colinsunderland]

I'd like the ukgc to ask coral the reason why they removed the internal PnG help file in the first place? Not in an accusatory way, just what's the thinking there?

I'm tab'd out of there for few more days, so can't check myself, but does pressing the help button on other slots [netent, wms] send you to the coral help file or to the inbuilt slot maker's one? [I know Chop explained red tiger has both options]

I did make a point of that happening in the UKGC email, so hopefully they do ask.
This is why I can't be 100% sure it was a mistake, because otherwise, why? All other games use the provider help files, so why remove the PlaynGo ones in the first place? No other casino group I've seen do it, doesn't mean there isn't anyone else, just I haven't seen them, and they haven't done it with any other provider, so why ONLY PlayNGo.

Bear in mind the RTP is baked into the help file on the mobile version, it isn't an external file, but the RTP has been removed from them too, there was just a blank space where it should be.

 

[colinsunderland]

Guess it depends on what games you are betting on.

I only use WH. Coral and PP for football bet's and in my experience even tho i do not cashout Coral seems to be available most of the time.

Also Coral compared to WH seems to be a more accurate offer. You can have all your teams winning with 5 minutes to go and be offered £190 for a £200 win at Coral whereas same bet at WH is offering something like £140.

But again that is just my experience.

I didn't test WH against them, but as a test ages ago, I put the same bet on the exact same horses and did the same on football on Paddy Power, Betfair, Skybet, Coral, Bet365, BetVictor and LeoVegas. Think I did it 4 times, and in every case Coral were either last or joint last at various stages of the bets, Close to them were BetVictor. Betfair/PP were usually best priced, with B365 slightly behind.
Obviously that isn't conclusive proof its the same every time, but was the times I checked. It was a while ago now so quite possibly has changed.

 

[mack341]

When I was last on betfair I saw they had just got book of dead, the helpfile said the 96% version, if that remains the case I shall play it there. Hopefully they'll be getting some more PnG slots.

Players/consumers I feel need to vote with their feet and support sites with the higher rtp, there is a competitive advantage for the casinos that offer the higher version, but only if consumers aren't persuaded 2% makes no odds.

Just checked betfair, on the a-z of arcade slots, each game picture has an info 'i' button, which brings up this:

With the rtp prominently displayed, so they understand it is important information a customer should be able to find out easily.

 

[lewisnadasurf]

I didn't test WH against them, but as a test ages ago, I put the same bet on the exact same horses and did the same on football on Paddy Power, Betfair, Skybet, Coral, Bet365, BetVictor and LeoVegas. Think I did it 4 times, and in every case Coral were either last or joint last at various stages of the bets, Close to them were BetVictor. Betfair/PP were usually best priced, with B365 slightly behind.
Obviously that isn't conclusive proof its the same every time, but was the times I checked. It was a while ago now so quite possibly has changed.

Knowing i know how the back end works for Coral & Lads - i'd love to know what the others use.

 

[colinsunderland]

Knowing i know how the back end works for Coral & Lads - i'd love to know what the others use.

Betfair seemed to be linked into the exchange prices when they started, don't know if its still the same.

 

[lewisnadasurf]

Betfair seemed to be linked into the exchange prices when they started, don't know if its still the same.

Well, everyone uses the exchange prices at first, then they put their own mark up on it

I meant system wise...

 

[Fridayhigh]

After following this thread, I am asking myself if it's really Coral to blame or PlaynGo. Awhile back I had a problem when one of their games that froze up on a feature, and contacted VS, and they returned with an explanation from Png and screenshots. Well the explanation and screenshots did not match up one bit. I called Sweden and held on along time to got someone high up, but they were not forthcoming. And back in the day, must be 5 years now they like other providers said all their games were set in stone at 96 point whatever. Funny now that Harry reports a variety of RTP's not unlike the days of RTG.

It comes to the point where the only sane thing is return to the green felt and watch a live shuffle. When you are spending more over coffee every morning on penny slots then a three day comped trip by SBM in Monaco, you need your head examined. Nice touch Bryan or whoever on the 404 page not found when I tried to get on Casino Meister, must have struck a nerve that it was the just penalty for unscrupulous behavior of operators/(not players). Funny none the less - nice one!