Grand Prive' shows up in Forbes

[Redbush54]

Now if this won't frost ya.....Forbes has an article on Grand Prive'. And they even have a comment section.......this is gonna be good

Old / Expired Link

 

[dominique]

That takes the cake.

Comments are a nice feature...

 

[X-Raided]

What's the deal with Grand Prive Casino?

I read through the Rogue Casinos section and I did not
see any reason (besides kicking affiliates to the curb and
not being loyal when they departed from the U.S.) to
not play there. I haven't opened up an account there yet,
but I skimmed through past threads and did not see
any players not getting paid by this casino.

Could a seasoned CM vet please school me on
why not to trust this casino? It would be highly appreciated.

 

[Redbush54]

What's the deal with Grand Prive Casino?

I read through the Rogue Casinos section and I did not
see any reason (besides kicking affiliates to the curb and
not being loyal when they departed from the U.S.) to
not play there. I haven't opened up an account there yet,
but I skimmed through past threads and did not see
any players not getting paid by this casino.

Could a seasoned CM vet please school me on
why not to trust this casino? It would be highly appreciated.

If they would steal from affiliates do you think they would still from you?

 

[X-Raided]

If they would steal from affiliates do you think they would still from you?

That's true... Anyways, I downloaded the software and used
fictitious information (to not receive spam B.S. to my email like that
poor widow I read about) just to access the the practice play.
It was a waste of time.
The main interface was weak and the slots were non-exciting
to say the least.

 

[rockycatt]

they got your info as you put it in fictitious

so if you ever play there or a sister casino under their umbrella you prolly won get paid because your a multi acounter now

 

[all4greed]

I received their player magazine a few weeks back and have to say it was very polished. Far nicer than I would have thought.

Never deposited and never cashed out, just play those free bonuses.

 

[X-Raided]

they got your info as you put it in fictitious

so if you ever play there or a sister casino under their umbrella you prolly won get paid because your a multi acounter now

Fair enough. I removed the software and actually never plan
to play at Grand Prive or any of their sister casinos ever.

 

[vinylweatherman]

What's the deal with Grand Prive Casino?

I read through the Rogue Casinos section and I did not
see any reason (besides kicking affiliates to the curb and
not being loyal when they departed from the U.S.) to
not play there. I haven't opened up an account there yet,
but I skimmed through past threads and did not see
any players not getting paid by this casino.

Could a seasoned CM vet please school me on
why not to trust this casino? It would be highly appreciated.

You won't see any OBVIOUS reason to avoid them, but they are pretty much a rogue business with no concern for their customers, nor even their other business partners.

Affiliates were "kicked to the curb" when they pulled out of the USA, and since these affiliates were no longer going to be bringing in NEW players, Grand Prive hatched a scheme to ditch their EXISTING contractual obligations to affiliates who had signed the players on a % of loss for the lifetime of the players.

They even tried to get eCogra involved in a whitewash, and deliberately doctored the scope of the investigation (and the evidence) in order to get the result they wanted. When this plan fell apart, Grand Prive were even prepared to kick eCogra to the curb by refusing to co-operate further, even though it was Grand Prive themselves that asked eCogra to do the investigation, and initially said this was so that it could be seen to be independent. All that has come out of this is that they didn't like the direction this "independent investigation" was taking, so they killed it & used legal fineprint to prevent eCogra from taking the matter even further. eCogra are not even allowed the freedom to so much as DISCUSS the details of much of what they did.

Next came the players. The software switch was a true "cut & run", and they even broke their LICENSING rules, and showed complete disregard for the LAW in the jurisdiction where they were licensed.

Rather than correct the breach, they simply "did a runner" to a lesser jurisdiction that was more willing to let them do what they wanted, without inconveniencing their plans by minor points such as OBEYING THE LAW in the jurisdiction that has granted them their license.

Grand Prive must be one of the worst operators to actually get thrown out by the KAHNAWAKE, who did NOT go this far with Absolute Poker when THAT scandal erupted.

They may have thought they would get away with it, but did not do their research, the Kahnawake have made efforts to improve the way they operate, and this meant that they could NOT allow Grand Prive to get away with this and spoil their efforts.

Having got rid of MGS software, the ONLY thing left that is "polished" is their player magazine (see below), which is no good if the software is rubbish.

This new software is probably much cheaper than MGS, and less tested, making me wonder just HOW they are now "screwing players". If they are paying players without fuss, take a closer look at the software

The long dead "Lucky Chance" casino ALWAYS paid fast, and ALWAYS offered 100%+ on each and every deposit. You converted bonus to cash at 2.5% of wagers, even on BLACKJACK!
I played there, and you could even withdraw before meeting WR by throwing away the rest of the bonus.

You might think I made a fortune, but no, the SOFTWARE WAS RIGGED AS HELL! It took me a while to figure out something fishy was going on, but as my investigation got underway, they closed down. My suspicions were confirmed by another member calculating that if their video poker game did NOT cheat, you could never LOSE, because it was 100% bonus every time, 2.5% conversion, and 111% RTP on the VP game

It might be worth doing a similar calculation on the new Grand Prive software to see if the VP and Blackjack games' RTP, bonus, and WR, make sense.

I received their player magazine a few weeks back and have to say it was very polished. Far nicer than I would have thought.

Never deposited and never cashed out, just play those free bonuses.

 

[Tengil]

Have yet to see any proof that they would have actually breached the contracts. They terminated them and thats totally legal AFAIK. Its irrelevant what they "promised" their affiliates. If they would have sticked with the contracts they would have gone bust. Revshare programs only works as long as the affiliates can bring in new customers.

Affiliate programs have done the same multiple times, this just was the first time a major gambling company did it.

So talking about stealing isnt really accurate.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Have yet to see any proof that they would have actually breached the contracts. They terminated them and thats totally legal AFAIK. Its irrelevant what they "promised" their affiliates.

Affiliate programs have done the same multiple times, this just was the first time a major gambling company did it.

So talking about stealing isnt really accurate.

Many contracts have such clauses, but they are meant to be used for unforseen circumstances, and NOT as Grand Prive used them, to get out of meeting promises made to affiliates. It goes back to trust, because we KNOW that it is easy for contracts to be worth little in this industry, and we expect promises to be kept.

Grand prive went to great lengths to BREAK these promises, AND to make themselves come out of it "smelling of roses". They did not care that they USED eCogra & it's reputation to attempt this. They were prepared to DAMAGE the integrity of eCogra by tricking them into taking on this investigation, where Grand Prive had already decided what the outcome would be, and would NOT tolerate a significantly different result.

They had NO regard to the licensing conditions of their Kahnawake gaming license, nor their contratural obligations with MGS.

This is the definition of a "rogue company". They will do whatever they can get away with, and WILL "tread on others" to get what they want with no regard for common moral standards.

I suspect this new software gives them far more freedom than MGS did, and maybe they can mess around with slot RTP when they feel like it, and to whom they want. RTG and Rival have similar features built in, but have had to introduce restrictions BECAUSE of the number of operators that were misusing such features to screw players.

Until the new Grand Prive software has been PROPERLY tested for fairness and randomness, the past actions of Grand Prive makes it likely they have required certain "features" be designed into the software so that they can continue to do what they feel they can get away with.

This is why they are in the pit. From KNOWN rogue business practice, we can judge what they are PREPARED to do, and thus this qualifies them for the pit, even though there is no current PROOF of them operating another rogue scheme.

They stay in the pit until they can PROVE through their actions that they have changed their ways, and have put the player first, from which business success & profit will flow, HONESTLY.

 

[Tengil]

Many contracts have such clauses, but they are meant to be used for unforseen circumstances, and NOT as Grand Prive used them, to get out of meeting promises made to affiliates. It goes back to trust, because we KNOW that it is easy for contracts to be worth little in this industry, and we expect promises to be kept.

Grand prive went to great lengths to BREAK these promises, AND to make themselves come out of it "smelling of roses". They did not care that they USED eCogra & it's reputation to attempt this. They were prepared to DAMAGE the integrity of eCogra by tricking them into taking on this investigation, where Grand Prive had already decided what the outcome would be, and would NOT tolerate a significantly different result.

They had NO regard to the licensing conditions of their Kahnawake gaming license, nor their contratural obligations with MGS.

This is the definition of a "rogue company". They will do whatever they can get away with, and WILL "tread on others" to get what they want with no regard for common moral standards.

I suspect this new software gives them far more freedom than MGS did, and maybe they can mess around with slot RTP when they feel like it, and to whom they want. RTG and Rival have similar features built in, but have had to introduce restrictions BECAUSE of the number of operators that were misusing such features to screw players.

Until the new Grand Prive software has been PROPERLY tested for fairness and randomness, the past actions of Grand Prive makes it likely they have required certain "features" be designed into the software so that they can continue to do what they feel they can get away with.

This is why they are in the pit. From KNOWN rogue business practice, we can judge what they are PREPARED to do, and thus this qualifies them for the pit, even though there is no current PROOF of them operating another rogue scheme.

They stay in the pit until they can PROVE through their actions that they have changed their ways, and have put the player first, from which business success & profit will flow, HONESTLY.

They are used for exactly that reason. As said this is somewhat fairly common in affiliate marketing.

 

[dominique]

It's not promises. You sign up for a program and there is a contract that says what each party is allowed/not allowed or supposed/not supposed to do.

It is a legal contract. Grand Prive did NOT close shop, they are very much in business as you see from the article, and they just broke the contract and made off with a lot of money owed to a lot of people.

If they had gone broke or something, that would have been different. But they didn't.

And they stiffed Microgaming too, although you're not going to hear Microgaming complaining about this publicly.

Like I always say, players and affiliates need to pay close attention to which casinos screw the other group. If they do it to one group, they'll do it to the other. It's a matter of character. Likely they screw the cleaning lady out of her wages too.

If you walk by a pond full of crocodiles, and you see them eating a person of opposite sex from the other end of the world, do you jump in for a swim because they haven't eaten anyone like you?

 

[Tengil]

It's not promises. You sign up for a program and there is a contract that says what each party is allowed/not allowed or supposed/not supposed to do.

It is a legal contract. Grand Prive did NOT close shop, they are very much in business as you see from the article, and they just broke the contract and made off with a lot of money owed to a lot of people.

If they had gone broke or something, that would have been different. But they didn't.

And they stiffed Microgaming too, although you're not going to hear Microgaming complaining about this publicly.

Like I always say, players and affiliates need to pay close attention to which casinos screw the other group. If they do it to one group, they'll do it to the other. It's a matter of character. Likely they screw the cleaning lady out of her wages too.

If you walk by a pond full of crocodiles, and you see them eating a person of opposite sex from the other end of the world, do you jump in for a swim because they haven't eaten anyone like you?

Every affiliate program I have seen has a cancellation/termination clause in the contract. They can enforce it when they see fit. And its totally legal AFAIK. Much bigger companies than a relatively small gambling company like GP have closed their affiliate programs and terminated the contracts.

And they would have gone broke if they would have continued as normal. I think thats quite obvious.

And you promote Lock casino for example so the whole player affiliate stuff you talked about seems only to be a one way street.

Edit: and in no way do I think GP acted professionaly. They could have informed a few months in advance.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Every affiliate program I have seen has a cancellation/termination clause in the contract. They can enforce it when they see fit. And its totally legal AFAIK. Much bigger companies than a relatively small gambling company like GP have closed their affiliate programs and terminated the contracts.

And they would have gone broke if they would have continued as normal. I think thats quite obvious.

And you promote Lock casino for example so the whole player affiliate stuff you talked about seems only to be a one way street.

Edit: and in no way do I think GP acted professionaly. They could have informed a few months in advance.

In many cases, payment is STILL DUE for work done BEFORE the agreement is terminated. Since affiliates were paid for the work done in installments based on players' losses the previous month, they STILL had existing liabilities to affiliates so long as these players remained active.

I am a player there, and they DID try a dirty trick. I was sent an email informing me that the 5 casinos WERE actually closing for good, and telling me to follow a link to download a new casino, and only play there. This was a deliberate ploy to get referred players off the system, so it would look like they had stopped playing, and earning money for the affiliate that referred them.

When someone posted this email, Grand Prive tried to get Bryan to REMOVE the post because of what it revealed. Rather than removing the post, the fact of the request was also posted, making it even clearer that Grand Prive were up to something. Affiliates found out what they were up to later that year, when they were told many of their players were "no longer active", and making it easier to buy them off with a payment. The case only went on because they didn't pay off ALL the affiliates, including some of the bigger ones, who then wanted their share.

 

[Tengil]

In many cases, payment is STILL DUE for work done BEFORE the agreement is terminated. Since affiliates were paid for the work done in installments based on players' losses the previous month, they STILL had existing liabilities to affiliates so long as these players remained active.

I am a player there, and they DID try a dirty trick. I was sent an email informing me that the 5 casinos WERE actually closing for good, and telling me to follow a link to download a new casino, and only play there. This was a deliberate ploy to get referred players off the system, so it would look like they had stopped playing, and earning money for the affiliate that referred them.

When someone posted this email, Grand Prive tried to get Bryan to REMOVE the post because of what it revealed. Rather than removing the post, the fact of the request was also posted, making it even clearer that Grand Prive were up to something. Affiliates found out what they were up to later that year, when they were told many of their players were "no longer active", and making it easier to buy them off with a payment. The case only went on because they didn't pay off ALL the affiliates, including some of the bigger ones, who then wanted their share.

No. That is wrong, the only obligation they have is to pay for the last month the contracts were effective.

 

[dominique]

A contract is binding, and it can only be dissolved when both parties reach an agreement.

If I agree to sell you my TV, and you pay me the first few installements, and then I decide to keep it afterall and won't refund your money, I am at fault and you can sue me.

If we however discuss the situation and reach an agreement where I keep the TV and I pay you back what you have prepaid, then the contract is not breached.

In the past, aff programs have closed doors for various reasons, such as the sale of casinos. And there was usually a settlement.

That is the way this sort of thing is legally handled.

"Escape clauses" were instituted online for software contracts where you use an application that is designed and owned by a company and the company reserves the right to deny further usage at any time.

These clauses do not apply to contracts that regulate payments for services rendered. It's a whole different thing, and courts have set precedent in throwing these clauses out.

I'm not going to go search for these precedents now, no time. But, they were actually researched and presented here at Maister in a much earlier thread about this.

 

[vinylweatherman]

No. That is wrong, the only obligation they have is to pay for the last month the contracts were effective.

If that's the case, affiliates are pretty vulnerable to getting screwed over, because the MARKETING MATERIAL gives the impression that payments last for as long as the player is playing, giving affiliates an incentive to KEEP a player playing, rather than just sending the traffic.

If affiliates start to lose faith in this model, they will start targetting for different types of player, those likely to give them the most revenue in the first couple of months, rather than those likely to stick around.

This would strongly encourage SPAM as a marketing tool, rather than an informative portal designed to look after players long term. By the looks of my inbox, this is exactly what is happening.

The type of player likely to earn most early on is the "bonus seeker", who goes from site to site, but only plays once or twice with the generous new player bonuses. Revenue from this kind of player is not going to be affected by a contract being terminated a couple of months after the player has already "done" the welcome bonus and moved on.

I have seen NUMEROUS affiliate portals that target this kind of player, even to the point of giving detailed instructions of what games to play, and how to play them, as well as a list of which sites to move on to next with any winnings. I my early days, I even joined one or two of them, since this is how online gambling was marketed to me, there was no marketing encouraging me to be a loyal player at a few selected sites, at least not until I found Casinomeister, and became better informed.

 

[takethemoney]

Word on the street is these casinos have been down for over a full day for maintenance. What casinos goes down for a full day for maintenance? People are gonna get hosed on bonuses that expire and I suspect if the casinos don't make it right there is going to be wide spread anger out there.

 

[funeral979]

Word on the street is these casinos have been down for over a full day for maintenance. What casinos goes down for a full day for maintenance? People are gonna get hosed on bonuses that expire and I suspect if the casinos don't make it right there is going to be wide spread anger out there.

What is worse is that they have a weekend promotion going for collecting medals (you get different medals for higher payouts on all the games, or something to that effect)....for each medal you collect, you get free spins or a cash prize....I have collected about 75 myself across all the BetOnSoft casinos. I imagine if they don't extend this promotion there will be quite a few unhappy players who were hoping to rack up all those medals/prizes.

It should be noted that this 'maintenance' is not just affecting the Grand Prive group, but all casinos running BetOnSoft.

 

[Tengil]

A contract is binding, and it can only be dissolved when both parties reach an agreement.

If I agree to sell you my TV, and you pay me the first few installements, and then I decide to keep it afterall and won't refund your money, I am at fault and you can sue me.

If we however discuss the situation and reach an agreement where I keep the TV and I pay you back what you have prepaid, then the contract is not breached.

In the past, aff programs have closed doors for various reasons, such as the sale of casinos. And there was usually a settlement.

That is the way this sort of thing is legally handled.

"Escape clauses" were instituted online for software contracts where you use an application that is designed and owned by a company and the company reserves the right to deny further usage at any time.

These clauses do not apply to contracts that regulate payments for services rendered. It's a whole different thing, and courts have set precedent in throwing these clauses out.

I'm not going to go search for these precedents now, no time. But, they were actually researched and presented here at Maister in a much earlier thread about this.

Ever heard of Sportingbet? A PLC listed at LSE. You really think that they would have cancelled their affiliate contracts if it were illegal? As you wanted an example from online gambling.

Be happy that your campaign against them at least was partly successful.

 

[dominique]

Yes, I do think it was illegal, and I did say so at the time. And they did try to pressure me into not speaking about it at the time at am Amsterdam conference, and I did speak out about it anyway.

This is the internet, half of everything done here is illegal, at least in some jurisdictions.

And it will only get worse if places such as sportingbet (who by the way just paid off the US DOJ) and Grand Prive are allowed to go unscathed.

What some casinos do to players is illegal as well. That's what happens when there is prohibition. It will only stop if there is wide spread regulation.

 

[PlexRep]

Hi all,

I saw this post about Grand Prive this morning and thought y'all may be interested:

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