Resolved Grand Duke denied slot winnings, cited self-contradictory terms

[Vetal]

Yes, yes, I know. Read forum first, then play in the casino, not play and then write on the forum. I normally follow that rule, but this is a Playtech and I was going to play non-progressive slots only, and my deposit was not very large, so somehow I felt safe.

So I will have to add another Grand Duke story. I deposited 100 dollars, got a 100 dollar bonus, played slots, hit a win on a freespin feature, finished the playthrough, cashed out 750 dollars. Then my cashout was denied, deposit returned to Click2pay and after several emails asking for clarification I got the following:

As stated in our Terms and Conditions, your bonuses are subject to review for
irregular playing patterns. To ensure fair gaming and the proper use of
bonuses, we consider low margin betting, equal betting, zero risk bets or
hedge betting to be irregular gaming when deployed to exploit bonuses.

You may refer to this link;

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

under “Bonuses, Comps, and Promotions” for additional information.

So apparently they have additional bonus terms hidden in the general terms. I read those. And I found them to be self-contradictory. They first say that the following is not allowed:

Wagering based on one specific slot machine, in order to significantly increase a bankroll, in relevance to the initial betting amount, and then switching to another game

and then they go on by saying


In order to be eligible for withdrawal, you must have winnings from multiple games, in which winnings from any single game cannot exceed 50% of the total amount of the withdrawal request


So after one hits a win he cannot switch to another game. But he has to win a comparable amount in another game. This is impossible. According to those terms no slot player can cash out after redeeming a bonus and winning.

 

[KasinoKing]

How come this sham of a casino is STILL not in the rogue pit?

KK

 

[Vetal]

How come this sham of a casino is STILL not in the rogue pit?

KK

That is exactly the point. Furthermore, I want it to be put in as many rogue pits as possible, i.e. condemned by as many authorities as possible. I would appreciate if someone can tell me where else I can complain. Is there anything I (we) can do in order to help them loosing Playtech license?

 

[me_and_ed]

What I dont understand (I actually do, its purely based on $$) is why a major software provider like Playtech that is supposed to pride themself on fair gaming allows these kind of F.U clause outs for any of their licensees, I am sure they know but just turn a blind eye, total lack of respect for the players. Its too bad that there isnt an international legislation for online gaming......in a perfect world.

 

[maxd]

FYI, "Grand Duke: no pay and questionable practices" was recently posted in the Warnings section.

 

[vinylweatherman]

That is exactly the point. Furthermore, I want it to be put in as many rogue pits as possible, i.e. condemned by as many authorities as possible. I would appreciate if someone can tell me where else I can complain. Is there anything I (we) can do in order to help them loosing Playtech license?

They did exactly the same a couple of weeks ago. Player had decent slot win, no other "strategy" involved, and winnings were confiscated.

It seems the intent of this term is to deny ANY withdrawal after a player has hit big on a slot. You are correct in saying that having hit big on a slot, it is then IMPOSSIBLE to obey this set of terms whatever you do. You CANNOT manipulate the games in order to get another decent win of another slot, and in order to obey the 50% rule you would need THREE lucky hits on separate games, as with two, one or the other is still going to be over 50%. Then, if you hit big and switch to a different game, you ALSO risk having your winnings confiscated UNLESS you actually win on this other game, and are able to go to a third, and win yet again.

I am also surprised that they are not yet in the pit having stuck to their guns in the first case, and now seem to be doing it over and over again because they seem to feel they are getting away with it.

Playtech will do nothing, they don't give a flying **** what their licensees get up to, even confiscating progressive jackpots and stealing them rather than sending them back to the pool doesn't stir Playtech into action. The ONLY thing Playtech would take an interest in is an operator not paying it's license fee.

BY choosing Playtech, and getting a license from Malta, Grand Duke are not effectively regulated, and can get away with quite a bit, and seem to be intent on doing so.

It won't last long though, because they WILL end up in so many rogue pits that they won't be able to repair the damage.

You could see if Max can take on a PAB over this, as this is the evidence gathering stage that determines whether the casino is acting rogue, or the player isn't being entirely honest. Entry to the pit is usually what follows when a succession of PABs demonstrate consistent rogue behaviour from an operator. There is also the option to add a casino into "not recommended" where they are generating a significant number of complaints, and show no interest in addressing the problems or improving matters.


The first Grand Duke incident was where they confiscated a player's winnings WITHOUT a bonus having been used, on the grounds that he played "a mixture of systems" on the Blackjack tables that gave him an edge over the house. Such systems might work in land casinos, but are NEVER going to work when pitted against the RNG and "shuffle after every hand" structure of online blackjack. The incident demonstrated a serious lack of knowledge of the product they were offering their players, quite possibly good reason in itself to have them "not recommended".

 

[The Dude]

How come this sham of a casino is STILL not in the rogue pit?

KK

I've been too busy fixing the colors in the forum and arguing with shemantic and Joefrom

Seriously, these rules are silly. Why even offer a bonus? And these rules about what % of what games you need to play should be totally "in yo' face - click here to agree" since these are pretty odd indeed.

 

[Vetal]

Thanks everybody!

Here is a thought for Max, or whoever is in charge of the accredited/rogue lists and their inclusion criteria. How about automatically calling a casino rogue (or at least not recommended) if they have additional bonus terms hidden in the general terms? Almost nobody reads those general terms yadda-yadda before playing a bonus. I can see no valid reason of having the additional bonus terms hidden there besides a deliberate attempt to fool the player.

Hope other players will support me. All bonus terms should be in one place.

 

[Mousey]

Yes, yes, I know. Read forum first, then play in the casino, not play and then write on the forum. I normally follow that rule, but this is a Playtech and I was going to play non-progressive slots only, and my deposit was not very large, so somehow I felt safe.

So I will have to add another Grand Duke story. I deposited 100 dollars, got a 100 dollar bonus, played slots, hit a win on a freespin feature, finished the playthrough, cashed out 750 dollars. Then my cashout was denied, deposit returned to Click2pay and after several emails asking for clarification I got the following:





So apparently they have additional bonus terms hidden in the general terms. I read those. And I found them to be self-contradictory. They first say that the following is not allowed:

Wagering based on one specific slot machine, in order to significantly increase a bankroll, in relevance to the initial betting amount, and then switching to another game

and then they go on by saying


In order to be eligible for withdrawal, you must have winnings from multiple games, in which winnings from any single game cannot exceed 50% of the total amount of the withdrawal request


So after one hits a win he cannot switch to another game. But he has to win a comparable amount in another game. This is impossible. According to those terms no slot player can cash out after redeeming a bonus and winning.

They must be shooting for the most hinky slot T&C award. It would be impossible for anyone to cash out under those terms, would it not?
Totally bizarre....

 

[vinylweatherman]

I've been too busy fixing the colors in the forum and arguing with shemantic and Joefrom

Seriously, these rules are silly. Why even offer a bonus? And these rules about what % of what games you need to play should be totally "in yo' face - click here to agree" since these are pretty odd indeed.

They are not just "silly", they are virtually impossible to comply with given that the casino seems to interpret them in their favour to target ALL players who just happen to get a lucky big hit on a slot. There is no strategy other than to click spin, so players cannot control the size of a big win, and having had one, cannot then act to obey the term that then requires them to win a similar amount twice more on two different games.

 

[Vetal]

It seems the intent of this term is to deny ANY withdrawal after a player has hit big on a slot. You are correct in saying that having hit big on a slot, it is then IMPOSSIBLE to obey this set of terms whatever you do. You CANNOT manipulate the games in order to get another decent win of another slot, and in order to obey the 50% rule you would need THREE lucky hits on separate games, as with two, one or the other is still going to be over 50%. Then, if you hit big and switch to a different game, you ALSO risk having your winnings confiscated UNLESS you actually win on this other game, and are able to go to a third, and win yet again.

Not that I have a great desire to be a devil's advocate here, but that "50% of winnings" alone is still theoretically possible to fulfill. Yes, you have to keep risking your funds (two more times), but you have a non-zero chance of succeeding. When combined with that other rule, however, your chances of cashing out are totally nonexistent.

 

[The Dude]

Rogued:
https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

 

[Vetal]

For whatever it is worth, I asked them for clarification. Here it is

Hi Vitaliy,

This is Dexter from the Grand Duke Casino Support Team.

As stated in the previous email that you received, you may not be able to
increase your funds on a specific game and once managed to establish a certain
balance played a different kind of game.

Please note that you may continue playing in several games. However, you will
not be able to withdraw more than 50% winnings in a specific game on your
particular withdrawal. You need to earn it by playing and earning on other
games as well.

Thank you.

Do I have troubles understanding it because English is not my first language, or there is another reason?

 

[Mousey]

For whatever it is worth, I asked them for clarification. Here it is



Do I have troubles understanding it because English is not my first language, or there is another reason?

The problem is not your grasp of English. The problem is Grand Duke's lack of logic and common sense.

It doesn't make sense to me, either. It reads like something out of Alice in Wonderland....

 

[max1mike]

Do I have troubles understanding it because English is not my first language, or there is another reason?

hi vitally...your english looks fine to me, and being unsure of your native tongue, i used google translate:


they are:

plein de merde

充分的狗屎

iomlán cac

vol met stront

teljes szar

full av dritt

пун гована

full of shit.

 

[Vetal]

Ok, thanks everybody for reassurance. This is what I wrote back:

Thank you, Dexter. I almost understood it. Could you please clarify one thing: after hitting a big win on a slot machine should I switch to another game or keep playing the same slot machine? Which of the two ways is better to abide the terms and conditions?

 

[chuchu59]

How come this sham of a casino is STILL not in the rogue pit?

KK

Because it's a duke and it expects to be treated like royalty.

 

[chuchu59]

Other rogue casinos must be admiring GD for coming up with such an ingenious bonus term. I suggest they also follow the Golden Riviera example and force the bonus on players and that, when coupled with this bonus term will certainly ensure that no player ever cashes out. If one could, the odds are similar to a lottery win and the payouts more juicy.

 

[SlotMonster]

I'm glad they are in the Rogue Pit now!

Vitaliy, are you from Russia?

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi Vitaliy,

This is Dexter from the Grand Duke Casino Support Team.

As stated in the previous email that you received, you may not be able to
increase your funds on a specific game and once managed to establish a certain
balance played a different kind of game.

Please note that you may continue playing in several games. However, you will
not be able to withdraw more than 50% winnings in a specific game on your
particular withdrawal. You need to earn it by playing and earning on other
games as well.

Thank you.

Looks like they don't even understand their own rogue terms.

They should have only deducted 50% of the OPs big win, not ALL of it, and paid the rest.

The operator may be paranoid about players winning, but I am paranoid about PLAYING there, and it says little for Malta that they have allowed this type of operator to have one of it's licenses. Seems rogue casinos no longer have to hide away in Costa Rica, they can come to Malta. Better hurry though, because the UK government have at least "woken up and smelled the coffee", it is just the politicians take forever to DRINK it, so there should be a few years of roguing available before the rules that allow any EU licensed casino to advertise in almost all EU countries is changed.

I bet Virtual group could learn from Grand Duke, unless of course Virtual have already thought of the above, and Grand Duke is one of theirs

 

[Vetal]

Ok, thanks everybody for reassurance. This is what I wrote back:

well , here is the response

Hi Vitaliy,

This is Dexter from the Grand Duke Casino Support Team.

Playing the same slot machine to increase your funds then switching to another
game or request a withdrawal will violate the terms and conditions.

It is better to play in several games in order to earn your winnings rather
focusing on single game.

 

[heador112]

Wow this is hardcore nonsense

I wonder why Playtech allow these rogues to use their software :axeman2:

It is a shame they can do that under a EU liscense . Complain to LGA in Malta . If they have enough complaints they will close this shithole Grand Duke .

 

[Jinn]

I'm also glad they're rogued... it's amusing that their affiliate program is called 'Integra' and all their affiliate ads keep talking about their dedication to integrity, and yet they show the exact opposite in so many cases.

 

[vinylweatherman]

well , here is the response

Playing the same slot machine to increase your funds then switching to another
game or request a withdrawal will violate the terms and conditions.

It is better to play in several games in order to earn your winnings rather
focusing on single game.

In other words, whatever you do, the terms will be violated.

It makes no difference whether one or several slot games are played, they are all random aren't they

This makes RTG look good, and should be an embarrassment to Playtech.

The sooner this blatant UK whitelist loophole is closed, the better. It seems many other EU countries have decided to regulate by requiring secondary licensing in each country, and even the UK government has realised that consumers are getting ripped off by casinos licensed elsewhere in the EU, as well as in non-EU countries.

It is a pity that this situation will be used to protect state monopolies and preferred businesses, whilst pretending that the new measures are solely for consumer protection.

 

[chayton]

Playing the same slot machine to increase your funds then switching to another
game or request a withdrawal will violate the terms and conditions.

It is better to play in several games in order to earn your winnings rather
focusing on single game.

This has my vote for "the stupidest explanation of the most stupid term" for this years Casinmeister awards. Definitely they deserve to be in the pit.

 

[Vetal]

WOW

Expired Image

I have no other words.
Well, except for that I ordered a cashout immediately and will let you know how it goes.

 

[KasinoKing]

WOW

Expired Image

I have no other words.
Well, except for that I ordered a cashout immediately and will let you know how it goes.

WOW! I wonder how big was the gun they used to shoot themselves in the foot!

So you cashed-out immediately - do you mean this attempted bribe came with NO WR?

KK

 

[Vetal]

WOW! I wonder how big was the gun they used to shoot themselves in the foot!

So you cashed-out immediately - do you mean this attempted bribe came with NO WR?

KK

If you read the thread carefully from the beginning you will see that the "bribe" is a mere return of previously confiscated winnings. And since they were confiscated from a cashout which was made after completing the WR, I just put it back into the cashout.

 

[chuchu59]

WOW

Expired Image

I have no other words.
Well, except for that I ordered a cashout immediately and will let you know how it goes.

This is supposed to be a bribe so you shouldnt meet any problems with the cashout. They know you cant or wont amend your statements but was hoping you simply told us you were paid after winning with the $750. They had not counted on you cashing out immediately and posting their 'bribe'. They thought you would chuckle at this 'great offer' and rub hands with glee.

Grand Duke and other rogues,sometimes it doesnt work out this way. There are righteous players like Vetal who would rather put you to shame than being bribed.

 

[Tirilej]

Doesn't it also say that You just recieved a CAD750 bonus!
I do hope you get your money but the wording Bonus imply that it's not real cash.

 

[Jasminebed]

Grand Duke is making efforts to set things right. They've restored the confiscated funds to the player's account, and she's now cashed out.

If there are any terms attached to this $750, there's a serious problem still.

I have to say that asking the player to "amend" her statements is a very poor choice of phrasing... I think "inform the forums" would be reasonable to ask however.

I'm happy Vetal finally got what she deserved in the first place. Please update further when you receive your cashout.

Have these awful terms been amended?

 

[Vetal]

Grand Duke is making efforts to set things right. They've restored the confiscated funds to the player's account, and she's now cashed out.

He.

If there are any terms attached to this $750, there's a serious problem still.

No terms, at least in the cashier display. Will let you know how the withdrawal goes.

I have to say that asking the player to "amend" her statements is a very poor choice of phrasing... I think "inform the forums" would be reasonable to ask however.

In my email to them I said myself that " If you will reconsider this matter I would be more than happy to write on all those boards that it was resolved "

I'm happy Vetal finally got what she deserved in the first place. Please update further when you receive your cashout.

Have these awful terms been amended?

YES

 

[Jasminebed]

Apologies for the gender blunders.

 

[chuchu59]

Even if Vetal receives the money this casino should not be forgiven. They could simply have said they reviewed the issue and decided to pay in full. Instead, they opted to award a bonus equivalent to the confiscated amount for Vetal to cash out. This means they are unwilling to admit they were wrong and in future they will still apply these ridiculous terms to confiscate winnings. Frankly, this casino should remain in the pit and while I am happy that Vetal got back the $750 this issue is not resolved in every sense of the word.

 

[Vetal]

Money received in my Ecocard account! Apparently this Bonus Pop-up was rather a technical issue, to refund the money they needed to credit it as a bonus and set wagering to zero. Like I said before, I did not make a single bet before cashing out.

To MaxD: please put the word "Resolved" in the subject line. Also, please update my PAB status, if possible. Thanks!

 

[Simmo!]

As an aside, for those who haven't twigged, Grand Duke is now being run by the company that own Guruplay, hence the "new management" mail from the, er, new management LOL.

 

[chuchu59]

Money received in my Ecocard account! Apparently this Bonus Pop-up was rather a technical issue, to refund the money they needed to credit it as a bonus and set wagering to zero. Like I said before, I did not make a single bet before cashing out.

To MaxD: please put the word "Resolved" in the subject line. Also, please update my PAB status, if possible. Thanks!

An apology is the only thing missing IMO.