Resolved Grand Duke denied slot winnings, cited self-contradictory terms

Vetal

Dormant account
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Location
Toronto
Yes, yes, I know. Read forum first, then play in the casino, not play and then write on the forum. I normally follow that rule, but this is a Playtech and I was going to play non-progressive slots only, and my deposit was not very large, so somehow I felt safe.

So I will have to add another Grand Duke story. I deposited 100 dollars, got a 100 dollar bonus, played slots, hit a win on a freespin feature, finished the playthrough, cashed out 750 dollars. Then my cashout was denied, deposit returned to Click2pay and after several emails asking for clarification I got the following:



As stated in our Terms and Conditions, your bonuses are subject to review for
irregular playing patterns. To ensure fair gaming and the proper use of
bonuses, we consider low margin betting, equal betting, zero risk bets or
hedge betting to be irregular gaming when deployed to exploit bonuses.

You may refer to this link;
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

under “Bonuses, Comps, and Promotions” for additional information.

So apparently they have additional bonus terms hidden in the general terms. I read those. And I found them to be self-contradictory. They first say that the following is not allowed:

Wagering based on one specific slot machine, in order to significantly increase a bankroll, in relevance to the initial betting amount, and then switching to another game

and then they go on by saying


In order to be eligible for withdrawal, you must have winnings from multiple games, in which winnings from any single game cannot exceed 50% of the total amount of the withdrawal request


So after one hits a win he cannot switch to another game. But he has to win a comparable amount in another game. This is impossible. According to those terms no slot player can cash out after redeeming a bonus and winning.
 

Vetal

Dormant account
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Location
Toronto
How come this sham of a casino is STILL not in the rogue pit? :confused:

KK

That is exactly the point. Furthermore, I want it to be put in as many rogue pits as possible, i.e. condemned by as many authorities as possible. I would appreciate if someone can tell me where else I can complain. Is there anything I (we) can do in order to help them loosing Playtech license?
 

me_and_ed

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
CAG
MM
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Location
Vancouver
What I dont understand (I actually do, its purely based on $$) is why a major software provider like Playtech that is supposed to pride themself on fair gaming allows these kind of F.U clause outs for any of their licensees, I am sure they know but just turn a blind eye, total lack of respect for the players. Its too bad that there isnt an international legislation for online gaming......in a perfect world.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
That is exactly the point. Furthermore, I want it to be put in as many rogue pits as possible, i.e. condemned by as many authorities as possible. I would appreciate if someone can tell me where else I can complain. Is there anything I (we) can do in order to help them loosing Playtech license?

They did exactly the same a couple of weeks ago. Player had decent slot win, no other "strategy" involved, and winnings were confiscated.

It seems the intent of this term is to deny ANY withdrawal after a player has hit big on a slot. You are correct in saying that having hit big on a slot, it is then IMPOSSIBLE to obey this set of terms whatever you do. You CANNOT manipulate the games in order to get another decent win of another slot, and in order to obey the 50% rule you would need THREE lucky hits on separate games, as with two, one or the other is still going to be over 50%. Then, if you hit big and switch to a different game, you ALSO risk having your winnings confiscated UNLESS you actually win on this other game, and are able to go to a third, and win yet again.

I am also surprised that they are not yet in the pit having stuck to their guns in the first case, and now seem to be doing it over and over again because they seem to feel they are getting away with it.

Playtech will do nothing, they don't give a flying **** what their licensees get up to, even confiscating progressive jackpots and stealing them rather than sending them back to the pool doesn't stir Playtech into action. The ONLY thing Playtech would take an interest in is an operator not paying it's license fee.

BY choosing Playtech, and getting a license from Malta, Grand Duke are not effectively regulated, and can get away with quite a bit, and seem to be intent on doing so.

It won't last long though, because they WILL end up in so many rogue pits that they won't be able to repair the damage.

You could see if Max can take on a PAB over this, as this is the evidence gathering stage that determines whether the casino is acting rogue, or the player isn't being entirely honest. Entry to the pit is usually what follows when a succession of PABs demonstrate consistent rogue behaviour from an operator. There is also the option to add a casino into "not recommended" where they are generating a significant number of complaints, and show no interest in addressing the problems or improving matters.


The first Grand Duke incident was where they confiscated a player's winnings WITHOUT a bonus having been used, on the grounds that he played "a mixture of systems" on the Blackjack tables that gave him an edge over the house. Such systems might work in land casinos, but are NEVER going to work when pitted against the RNG and "shuffle after every hand" structure of online blackjack. The incident demonstrated a serious lack of knowledge of the product they were offering their players, quite possibly good reason in itself to have them "not recommended".
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
How come this sham of a casino is STILL not in the rogue pit? :confused:

KK
I've been too busy fixing the colors in the forum and arguing with shemantic and Joefrom :p

Seriously, these rules are silly. Why even offer a bonus? And these rules about what % of what games you need to play should be totally "in yo' face - click here to agree" since these are pretty odd indeed.
 

Vetal

Dormant account
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Location
Toronto
Thanks everybody!

Here is a thought for Max, or whoever is in charge of the accredited/rogue lists and their inclusion criteria. How about automatically calling a casino rogue (or at least not recommended) if they have additional bonus terms hidden in the general terms? Almost nobody reads those general terms yadda-yadda before playing a bonus. I can see no valid reason of having the additional bonus terms hidden there besides a deliberate attempt to fool the player.

Hope other players will support me. All bonus terms should be in one place.
 

Mousey

Ueber Meister Mouse
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Location
Up$hitCreek
Yes, yes, I know. Read forum first, then play in the casino, not play and then write on the forum. I normally follow that rule, but this is a Playtech and I was going to play non-progressive slots only, and my deposit was not very large, so somehow I felt safe.

So I will have to add another Grand Duke story. I deposited 100 dollars, got a 100 dollar bonus, played slots, hit a win on a freespin feature, finished the playthrough, cashed out 750 dollars. Then my cashout was denied, deposit returned to Click2pay and after several emails asking for clarification I got the following:





So apparently they have additional bonus terms hidden in the general terms. I read those. And I found them to be self-contradictory. They first say that the following is not allowed:

Wagering based on one specific slot machine, in order to significantly increase a bankroll, in relevance to the initial betting amount, and then switching to another game

and then they go on by saying


In order to be eligible for withdrawal, you must have winnings from multiple games, in which winnings from any single game cannot exceed 50% of the total amount of the withdrawal request


So after one hits a win he cannot switch to another game. But he has to win a comparable amount in another game. This is impossible. According to those terms no slot player can cash out after redeeming a bonus and winning.

They must be shooting for the most hinky slot T&C award. It would be impossible for anyone to cash out under those terms, would it not?
Totally bizarre.... :what:
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I've been too busy fixing the colors in the forum and arguing with shemantic and Joefrom :p

Seriously, these rules are silly. Why even offer a bonus? And these rules about what % of what games you need to play should be totally "in yo' face - click here to agree" since these are pretty odd indeed.


They are not just "silly", they are virtually impossible to comply with given that the casino seems to interpret them in their favour to target ALL players who just happen to get a lucky big hit on a slot. There is no strategy other than to click spin, so players cannot control the size of a big win, and having had one, cannot then act to obey the term that then requires them to win a similar amount twice more on two different games.
 

Vetal

Dormant account
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Location
Toronto
It seems the intent of this term is to deny ANY withdrawal after a player has hit big on a slot. You are correct in saying that having hit big on a slot, it is then IMPOSSIBLE to obey this set of terms whatever you do. You CANNOT manipulate the games in order to get another decent win of another slot, and in order to obey the 50% rule you would need THREE lucky hits on separate games, as with two, one or the other is still going to be over 50%. Then, if you hit big and switch to a different game, you ALSO risk having your winnings confiscated UNLESS you actually win on this other game, and are able to go to a third, and win yet again.

Not that I have a great desire to be a devil's advocate here, but that "50% of winnings" alone is still theoretically possible to fulfill. Yes, you have to keep risking your funds (two more times), but you have a non-zero chance of succeeding. When combined with that other rule, however, your chances of cashing out are totally nonexistent.
 

Vetal

Dormant account
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Location
Toronto
For whatever it is worth, I asked them for clarification. Here it is

Hi Vitaliy,

This is Dexter from the Grand Duke Casino Support Team.

As stated in the previous email that you received, you may not be able to
increase your funds on a specific game and once managed to establish a certain
balance played a different kind of game.

Please note that you may continue playing in several games. However, you will
not be able to withdraw more than 50% winnings in a specific game on your
particular withdrawal. You need to earn it by playing and earning on other
games as well.

Thank you.

Do I have troubles understanding it because English is not my first language, or there is another reason?
 

Mousey

Ueber Meister Mouse
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Location
Up$hitCreek
For whatever it is worth, I asked them for clarification. Here it is



Do I have troubles understanding it because English is not my first language, or there is another reason?

The problem is not your grasp of English. The problem is Grand Duke's lack of logic and common sense.

It doesn't make sense to me, either. It reads like something out of Alice in Wonderland....
 

max1mike

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Location
USA
Do I have troubles understanding it because English is not my first language, or there is another reason?

hi vitally...your english looks fine to me, and being unsure of your native tongue, i used google translate:


they are:

plein de merde

充分的狗屎

iomlán cac

vol met stront

teljes szar

full av dritt

пун гована

full of shit.
 

Vetal

Dormant account
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Location
Toronto
Ok, thanks everybody for reassurance. This is what I wrote back:

Thank you, Dexter. I almost understood it. Could you please clarify one thing: after hitting a big win on a slot machine should I switch to another game or keep playing the same slot machine? Which of the two ways is better to abide the terms and conditions?
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Other rogue casinos must be admiring GD for coming up with such an ingenious bonus term. I suggest they also follow the Golden Riviera example and force the bonus on players and that, when coupled with this bonus term will certainly ensure that no player ever cashes out. If one could, the odds are similar to a lottery win and the payouts more juicy.
 

SlotMonster

Twitch Streamer - Affiliate
webmeister
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Location
Belarus
I'm glad they are in the Rogue Pit now! :thumbsup:

Vitaliy, are you from Russia? :)
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Hi Vitaliy,

This is Dexter from the Grand Duke Casino Support Team.

As stated in the previous email that you received, you may not be able to
increase your funds on a specific game and once managed to establish a certain
balance played a different kind of game.

Please note that you may continue playing in several games. However, you will
not be able to withdraw more than 50% winnings in a specific game on your
particular withdrawal
. You need to earn it by playing and earning on other
games as well.

Thank you.


Looks like they don't even understand their own rogue terms.:rolleyes:

They should have only deducted 50% of the OPs big win, not ALL of it, and paid the rest.

The operator may be paranoid about players winning, but I am paranoid about PLAYING there, and it says little for Malta that they have allowed this type of operator to have one of it's licenses. Seems rogue casinos no longer have to hide away in Costa Rica, they can come to Malta. Better hurry though, because the UK government have at least "woken up and smelled the coffee", it is just the politicians take forever to DRINK it, so there should be a few years of roguing available before the rules that allow any EU licensed casino to advertise in almost all EU countries is changed.

I bet Virtual group could learn from Grand Duke, unless of course Virtual have already thought of the above, and Grand Duke is one of theirs:rolleyes:
 
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