GP, MGS, and affiliates

[dominique]

Can we please stay on topic?

The last topical question was about the numbers of affiliates that were affected, and I answered that above.

Please lets not turn this into a bashing thread. It is supposed to be constructive, not destructive.

 

[greek39]

Can we please stay on topic?

The last topical question was about the numbers of affiliates that were affected, and I answered that above.

Please lets not turn this into a bashing thread. It is supposed to be constructive, not destructive.

I certainly agree lets move forward. But I see little worth in discussing this issue any further here.

So I am done with any further comments.

greek39

 

[Casinomeister]

...No several others have also met with MGS and nothing. Gathering information from players, affiliates to present to MGS. Will you claim affiliates use Ad hominem tactics and are the enemy lol? Sorry CM maybe you lost your focus IMO. Peoples lively hoods were affected by GP actions you appear to be trivializing many affiliates claims...

I'm not trivializing anything; I'm giving you my viewpoint based on what I know. I am trying to cut through the BS and misinformation. Take it or leave it I guess.

Mr C. i am also genuinely upset and angered by your attack of affiliates, and before you trivialize what i am saying, look back over you last few remarks and its obvious you have no respect for any affiliates, but aren't you one also? Don't you have link to casinos for players to join through you? How can you speak so lowly of affilaites, what the hell have we done to you? I just don't understand the remarks that are being said....?

I guess this is just a Players forum, and us low life affiliates need to stop coming by.

No need to take things personal - I referred to many affiliates - not all. Some of my closest friends are affiliates, two of the moderators of this forum are affiliates. We have over 200 active members of this board who are affiliates - many of whom are prolific and knowledgeable posters. To say I'm anti-affiliate is a laugh.

But I will be critical when it comes to the way many affiliates go about their business. Probably because it affects players and this industry as a whole - and I'm sure many affiliates would agree with me on this - especially the ones who are active on this board - and not the ones who have been banned for being too annoying .

2. US citizens are ill advised to take part in lawsuits involving online gambling...

I'm not sure if this would have been considered a lawsuit involving "online gambling"per se. Most affiliate programs are set up as a B2B marketing agencies. If someone really had a case, I don't think it would have been out of the question to have a SA legal team tackle this. Do you think anyone would care if a US citizen was named as a plaintiff in a SA civil lawsuit? I don't, but then that's a question for the lawyers

But this should have been done while the iron was hot - what more can be done...who knows? Maybe Spearmaster (gasp - he used to be an affiliate!) will come up with something.

 

[bonustreak]

Come to think of it, Dom, Bonustreak, others, were you required to sign up with GP and then request a migration, or were you automatically signed up with GP - and did you get the email from GP advising about the audit?

No we were not required to sign up for this they sent a letter to affiliates and said they were going to have a new better affiliate program once it was live all we had to do was login with our usual login(Referspot) details. We did have to switch and change all links of course and they had a lot of issues with stats, mapping over players for a few months I do remember that much.

BTW- Spear check your spam mail I sent you mail a few days ago.

I just have to say this is how things get spun out of control and serious issues get over looked, someone says something and then another for some reason takes it as a personal attack. I personally don't feel like Bryan is attacking all affiliates he said quite clearly not all but many... He is right if we all could have just got together formed a plain and put it to action this would maybe have ended better for all affiliates but instead we had flame wars started up, affiliates attacking one another so much that the entire situation became so convoluted that I myself along with many others just could not be bothered to keep up with the threads.

I am curious has the large affilate forums sent out a poll to see exactly how many of their members were affilaites with GP/Referspot? I know that they are also in the business of sub affiliates anyway to remember exactly how many sub affiliates you had on your account for GP/ Referspot?

 

[spearmaster]

No we were not required to sign up for this they sent a letter to affiliates and said they were going to have a new better affiliate program once it was live all we had to do was login with our usual login(Referspot) details. We did have to switch and change all links of course and they had a lot of issues with stats, mapping over players for a few months I do remember that much.

Thanks for that

BTW- Spear check your spam mail I sent you mail a few days ago.

Yes, got it. Responding now.

 

[jetset]

Want facts I will get them. One fact is Ecogra is in no position to audit

Let me assist you - this is staffing information from eCOGRA readily available to those who wish to judge issues on a factual basis:

STAFFING

Full-time staff involved in compliance reviews and data analysis are as follows:
• Andrew Beveridge, CEO – Chartered Accountant, MBA
• Kyle Harris, Manager Compliance and Advisory Services Department – Chartered Accountant
• Gary Lupton-Smith, Manager Data Analysis Department – B.Com, CISA
• Sean Roberts – Chartered Accountant
• Gareth Muirhead – Chartered Accountant
• Louise Chunnet – Chartered Accountant
• Bradley Khoury – Chartered Accountant
• Shaun McCallaghan – Chartered Accountant (part qualified)
• Grant Bruintjies – National Diploma Internal Auditing
• Martin Theunissen - MCDBA,MCSA

QUALITY ASSURANCE

The compliance, advisory and data analysis services are overseen by eCOGRA’s Audit and Seals Compliance Committees.

The Audit Committee is chaired by Bill Henbrey, a Chartered Accountant and former head of gaming services at leading international accounting firm BDO.

The Seals Compliance Committee is chaired by Bill Galston OBE, retired Chief Inspector for the Gambling Board of Great Britain.

KPMG, as a recognised international accounting firm, performs an annual quality assurance review with the objective of ensuring that the governance structure, responsibilities, processes and approach implemented within eCOGRA’s Data Services, and Compliance and Advisory Departments are in line with best practice and industry requirements, and comply with recognised audit practices and principles.

 

[dominique]

There is a good article in the current GPWA magazine about eCOGRA in general and the GP audit in specific, an interview.

 

[AussieDave]

I have heard the total amount due after this audit was $63k across all accounts who filed claims. This seems very low to me. I can guarantee there are many affiliates who earned more than this from one program alone in the last year. Without going into details, one of the programs I promote generated more than this amount in 2009 - and I do not heavily promote them.

Like Webzcas I'm not a super aff either, but with the sheer number of affs promoting GP for all those years, it would certainly be a lot larger than 63K.

Oh and the life of players...

Although I do have drive by's who play a couple of times then never return. The majority of my players stay put. Although they may play elsewhere, I have players that play every month and have done so for years.

Of my whales, one's dropping high 5's to 6 figures every month for the past 2 years. I'm sure there are GP affs that would have this type of player portfolio also.



Cheers



Dave

 

[AussieDave]

decided that it's no point flogging a dead horse...eCOGRA post deleted.

 

[AussieDave]

Grand Prive are no longer with MGS.

All casinos have been switched over to BetOnSoft.

So I suppose this thread is pretty useless now.

Why affiliates didn't do something about this back in 2008 when it happen, is just plain madness.

Maybe a class action back then would have saved all this heart ache.


Cheers



Dave

 

[jetset]

This new development does raise the interesting question of whether GP has been in contact with affiliates on its books advising them of this move (or perhaps only selected super-affiliates???)

If it has, why has it not become more public through GPWA? I would have thought someone would have posted there.

Whilst this might assist GP in distancing itself from the blacklists and negative search engine material to some extent, I would have thought that a complete brand clean-up a la Warren Cloud would have been more efficient and comprehensive.

I don't think it makes GP any less vulnerable to litigation in the GP Affiliate Program closure context providing affiliates can build a fact-based case, however.

 

[AussieDave]

I don't think it makes GP any less vulnerable to litigation in the GP Affiliate Program closure context providing affiliates can build a fact-based case, however.

I agree. However longer it continues without legal intervention the harder it becomes. Things have a habit of become convoluted. Why affiliates did not band together and take a class action is anyone's guess.

My guess...Trying to get X number of affiliates to agree on taking legal action, agreeing on a solicitor and ponying up with contributions for a war chest fund, has about as much hope taking place as flying to the moon.

And as far as I'm aware, until I posted about the GP move the GPWA knew nothing about it.

Anyway, I've resigned my private and public membership there today, so whatever the GPWA or its affiliates do, it's of no concern to me.

I feel empathy for any integrity driven affiliate who was shafted by GP.

But frankly, affiliates who promoted rogue casinos and have lived off the misfortune of casino players being shafted, if these rogue affiliates have been caught up in the GP mess...I call it Karma and poetic justice.



Cheers



Dave

 

[Casinomeister]

Grand Prive are no longer with MGS.

All casinos have been switched over to BetOnSoft.

So I suppose this thread is pretty useless now.

Why affiliates didn't do something about this back in 2008 when it happen, is just plain madness.

Maybe a class action back then would have saved all this heart ache.


Cheers



Dave

Ha! At first I thought it was an April Fools joke, but the Kahnawake and MGS logos are missing from Grand Prive. An interesting turn of events; I bet MGS and eCOGRA wished they made this move in Dec. 2008 - would have saved a lot of headaches

So to the aggrieved affiliates, now what?

 

[jetset]

No official statement on the MGS website either.

Or at

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[Casinomeister]

Yep, no April Fools. Just got a call from MGS - they were as surprised as everyone else. So they are in the process of terminating their agreement with Grand Prive.

Strategic timing - it's a four day weekend for most Europeans...

 

[jetset]

It's a holiday weekend, and it's therefore difficult to get hold of managers for a comment on this.

However, I finally managed to contact a senior Microgaming exec earlier this morning, and the guy was as bemused and surprised as the rest of us.

After he had taken some time to look into this from his company's perspective, he came back to me confirming that GP appears to have switched off MGS access and changed software provider without bothering to let them know that it was doing so.

I imagine that this sort of rather strange and unilateral action will not go down well, and the owner of the group has proved hard to contact to boot, so I would guess that Microgaming will be considering their position carefully in light of what seems to be a pretty strange way of severing a business relationship!

This explains why there has been no formal announcement from Microgaming - they simply weren't aware that it had happened! I'm guessing the same applies to the KGC, because GP licensing now looks as if it comes from Curacao.

I'm personally grappling with the business logic of unilaterally abandoning a top software with a 400+ suite of games for a lesser known software with around 60 offerings. And I imagine that unless BetOnSoft has passed the eCOGRA seal inspections without anyone knowing about it, GP loses that accreditation.

In fairness, there are no KGC, MGS or eCOGRA seals on these new sites.

It all smacks of a move downmarket to me.

 

[dominique]

Betonsoft is US facing, no? But it is invitation only?

So they don't need the US facing affs they shafted.

Re. a lawsuit - GP was counting on US affs (and it shafted only US affs as far as I can tell) not stepping up to the legal plate.

Well, without re-branding they should continue to suffer from blacklistings. By choosing a software that is promoted exclusively by email and snail mail they probably hope to circumvent the issue.

Lol at switching software in the dark of the night, without notification of MGS. Looks like their relationship with MGS has been under a strain after all....

Solves the issue of being accredited by eCOGRA.

However, IMO eCOGRA might give some thought in future to linking the aff program certification with the operator/casino certification - if an outfit mistreats one group, they are quite likely to mistreat the other. It's a matter of character and integrity. We'd all like to think that someone accredited by eCOGRA is safe for all to do business with.

 

[jetset]

It certainly appears to have been a singularly unprofessional manner in which to terminate a business relationship, and it would seem to give all the grounds Microgaming could ever need to legally and justifiably cut GP completely loose.

On the face of it, the future for GP doesn't look too bright.

 

[RayUK]

Possibly they just have cash flow problems and are looking to save money with a cheaper software provider.

 

[AussieDave]

I'm personally grappling with the business logic of unilaterally abandoning a top software with a 400+ suite of games for a lesser known software with around 60 offerings.

I checked the games out -it's like trading in a Ferrari for a scooter!



Cheers



Dave

 

[wangpoker]

what? MG and eCOGRA were slapped on the face? I am not surprised at all.

 

[AussieDave]

Strategic timing - it's a four day weekend for most Europeans...

Given the sudden switch, it's feasible behind the scenes pressure was being applied to Grand Prive by MGS & eCOGRA but they were unable to disclose this information.

So...Everyone has been bent over the proverbial barrel.

Will be interesting to see the MGS/eCOGRA legal ramifications for Grand Prive. Surely it wont be a case of standing on the dock waving bye bye with hankies.


Cheers



Dave

 

[Mousey]

It certainly appears to have been a singularly unprofessional manner in which to terminate a business relationship, and it would seem to give all the grounds Microgaming could ever need to legally and justifiably cut GP completely loose.

On the face of it, the future for GP doesn't look too bright.

I was completely and utterly surprised when reading about this GP 'downgrade' to BetonSoft. The fact that they just packed up and left MG 'in the dead of night' with no announcement, however, doesn't surprise me. The fact they did this on a holiday weekend also doesn't surprise me.

Remember when (2005?) GP management suddenly decided everyone -- well almost every one -- of their loyal players were bonus abusers? It was during Xmas holidays if I remember correctly... and Marcus was MIA ... ummm... 'on holiday' ... and so was every last one of their management.... and a bare bones staff of CS was left with the task of facing irate, confused players who were being denied personal bonus offers for which they had deposited.

GP does these bizarre, head in the sand type things, then act as if nothing happened, and they just can't understand what the fuss is about.

This time, tho, like Jetset, I'm thinking it's like watching a drowning man going down for the third time...

 

[Roanan]

In the Grand Prive = BetOnSoft thread I posted that I have closed my accounts of 7 years at the two poker rooms that offer BetOnSoft games in protest.

I ask anyone here who has an account at Absolute Poker, Ultimate Bet or any BetOnSoft casino to join me.

Maybe if they lose enough players, the owners will force BetOnSoft to boot GrandPrive and that will (hopefully) be what puts them out of business for good.

 

[dominique]

Unless GP owns Betonsoft, as Robwin speculates elsewhere.

Either way, I won't be taking UB and Absolute back under the circumstances.

Too bad, I was just about to check back in on UB and Absolute to see what their conduct was of late.