GP, MGS, and affiliates

[dominique]

The reason I am keen on MGS taking an interest is because they are the ONLY ones who might have actual evidence of the real size of the playerbase at the time of the mapping over. They would be the only people other than GP itself who know this, and it would be very useful information.

But I guess we are just screwed.

 

[Casinomeister]

The reason I am keen on MGS taking an interest is because they are the ONLY ones who might have actual evidence of the real size of the playerbase at the time of the mapping over. They would be the only people other than GP itself who know this, and it would be very useful information.

But I guess we are just screwed.

Okay - you've totally lost me. The mapping of players happened around two years before the closure - not two weeks. You promoted them for two years (or whatever) knowing how many "legacy" players you had. Or did you not look at your stats for that amount of time?

And if MGS knew the size of the player base then or now, how would you figure which players were referred there by you?

C'mon, Dom - you're clutching at straws here.

Has it occured to you that your players either quit playing or perhaps won a lot of money? You need to enter that into the equation.

 

[dominique]

If the database transferred by MGS was (picking a size just to make to make a point, so please don't argue the numbers, they are ficticious) 100,000 affiliate credited players, and what eCOGRA saw was 10,000 affiliate credited players, something is amiss. Even though 2 years passed. Knowing the sizes of the database transferred from Referspot and the size of the database presented to eCOGRA would go a long way. Especially since eCOGRA based calculations going backward in time on expected future player performance. So the data are not as far apart as two entire years.

I actually have no idea how many players I had, I can't keep current player numbers at some 30 places in my head for years, I only know what approximate income I had per month from legacy players, as they were displayed seperately. Only access to the old affiliate sites of GP and Referspot can make it possible to retrieve actual data. But GP will never allow that.

The buy-out proposed by eCOGRA after they computed what I was owed from what they saw was less than one month's legacy income. It however fits the non-legacy players, which were far and between after no new US players were accepted.

Every affiliate I talked to who did NOT qualify for any reimbursement says that they had EXCLUSIVELY Referspot legacy players still playing and they were still collecting comissions from these at the time of closure.

Consequently, the Referspot legacy data was excluded from the data eCOGRA was presented with.

Whether there were two seperate feeds (possible since the stats were displayed seperately) or whether players were simply untagged - we don't know.

I don't know how to explain this any better, and I know GP is giggling as they read this because they have succeeded completely in what they set out to do, and that with places such as eCOGRA and MGS and even Jetset and Bryan satisfied that all is on the up and up.

It is not ok, it is blatant theft and deception, and it has shaken my trust in this industry to the core.

 

[spearmaster]

And last but not least, GP sent one out to their affiliate database as well.

Just for the record, I didn't receive any notice from GP or Referspot. Other than that, for the moment, I have no further comment.

 

[jetset]

But you were nevertheless aware of this audit through the message boards you frequent and the news vehicles you read as a conscientious and involved affiliate/industry observer, surely, Spear?

Dom refers in her post above to Bryan and I being "satisfied" that everything is "on the up and up", and that once again is an unfounded assumption deserving of correction.

Speaking for myself, my interest in this affiliate issue is largely one of curiosity tinged with astonishment that so much energy has been expended on forum speculation and name calling, with little apparent hard information being presented. Outrage is on temporary hold until I see more factual evidence.

And as far as I can tell, this is all without anyone finding out what the legal options open to affiliates are. That would have been one of my first business moves when GP unilaterally closed their program and left me feeling that I had been screwed over back in December 2008.

But, no - I'm not 'satisfied' because the manner in which GP has gone about this issue smells afaic, assuming we are being presented with the whole truth and nothing but the truth by the affiliate community.

Unfortunately, what I am seeing is a great deal of abuse, unfair accusations against peripheral companies and rampant speculation that is fast becoming accepted as the truth by affiliates who seem incapable of taking aboard the factual responses with which they have been presented - eg that MGS claims it did not, and has never, been in possession of any of the data from the GP program changes in which it was involved two years ago, and the assurance by eCOGRA that its professionals did a fair and unbiased assessment on what affiliates were owed in what it believed was the sole and complete GP database.

In the process, the affiliate community has quite possibly alienated organisations that could be useful to them in the future. This may be 20/20 hindsight, but my feeling is that it's really a great pity that a more businesslike approach was not taken from the beginning.

I agree with Bryan that this issue doesn't seem to be going anywhere constructive or productive at present, and that affiliates may need to collectively regroup and consider a more evidence and litigation based approach to the dispute.

Spear's investigative initiative looks like a positive move away from abuse and speculation with the goal of achieving a fair and real world solution in my view.

I truly hope that it is the start of something more productive for affiliates.

 

[jetset]

"Even though 2 years passed. Knowing the sizes of the database transferred from Referspot and the size of the database presented to eCOGRA would go a long way." [to proving that something was amiss?]

Do you really believe that this sort of postulation would stand legal scrutiny, Dom? Because that's what it would have to survive in an action against GP.

That seems to be clutching at straws to me.

 

[Casinomeister]

...
I don't know how to explain this any better, and I know GP is giggling as they read this because they have succeeded completely in what they set out to do, and that with places such as eCOGRA and MGS and even Jetset and Bryan satisfied that all is on the up and up...

That is such bullshit Dom. Where have I ever said I was "satisfied".

I am giving you information right from the source. Unfortunately, you don't like this information, you don't want to accept it so you turn the argument around stating I'm satisfied.

This whole situation is ridiculous and Jetset hit the nail on the head with this:

Unfortunately, what I am seeing is a great deal of abuse, unfair accusations against peripheral companies and rampant speculation that is fast becoming accepted as the truth by affiliates who seem incapable of taking aboard the factual responses with which they have been presented - eg that MGS claims it did not, and has never, been in possession of any of the data from the GP program changes in which it was involved two years ago, and the assurance by eCOGRA that its professionals did a fair and unbiased assessment on what affiliates were owed in what it believed was the sole and complete GP database.

I'll say it once, and I'll say it again, affiliates are their worst enemy - in fact many shouldn't even be allowed to run a business - if in fact they are capable in running one at all. I'm not saying you Dom, but that comment is directed to many.

Most affiliates boast of running companies, right? Why didn't any of these companies hire capable lawyers and tackle GP in civil court? Because of the expense? Well that's an easy solution - these "hundreds" or "thousands" could have chipped in $100 a piece and hired a legal dream team via CAP or the GPWA's resources and file a class action lawsuit in GP's home town. I'm sure there are some South African webmasters who could have easily arranged that.

If this issue was so important, why didn't this happen? I'll tell you why, people like to bitch and moan, and that's about it. It's easy and it's fun! Woohoo! What did CAP do? What did the GPWA do? What did anybody do except for JTodd posting videos at YouTube?

And this serves as a template for the next program that decides to close it's doors. They know that they don't need to take affiliates seriously because all they'll do is bitch and moan in the message boards and upload videos at Youtube. When GP shut down its affiliate program, the affiliate community lost a huge opportunity to be taken on as a serious professional entity.

 

[spearmaster]

But you were nevertheless aware of this audit through the message boards you frequent and the news vehicles you read as a conscientious and involved affiliate/industry observer, surely, Spear?

Yes, of course. The point I'm making, however, is that it is not necessarily true that GP mailed all their affiliates - or, in fact, mailed only the GP affiliates and not those who originally signed up with Referspot, or even only those who had GP accounts.

I signed up with Referspot when it opened. I never signed up with GP, which "replaced" Referspot sometime in 2007. So one can surmise that perhaps Referspot affiliates, or those who didn't convert to GP afterwards, did not receive emails.

Come to think of it, Dom, Bonustreak, others, were you required to sign up with GP and then request a migration, or were you automatically signed up with GP - and did you get the email from GP advising about the audit?

Spear's investigative initiative looks like a positive move away from abuse and speculation with the goal of achieving a fair and real world solution in my view.

As we would all prefer, I'm sure. But there are no guarantees attached - maybe not enough data, or the data gathered doesn't constitute enough reason for a further investigation, or whatever.

It does bug me having to play a little hardball on occasion - and recently I'm a bit more irritable than normal LOL. But sometimes it requires a harsher-than-normal wake-up call before anything happens.

 

[jetset]

You know, just reflecting on this and Spear's commendable fact-gathering initiative:

Surely affiliates running businesses keep detailed records or maybe copies of their statements from the programs? Do these contain useful facts or stats, and can they be combined to present a more comprehensive picture than that available to the individual affiliate?

Or do affiliates rely solely on the programs to retain pertinent financial and other information and justify what they (the affiliates) are being recompensed for?

It would be much more credible to see this sort of collaborative approach between affiliates rather than the obviously unproductive circus we have been observing thus far.

Just a thought.....

 

[triple777s]

Are you both now saying that this is all the affiliates fault?

Please tell me you are not going to try and blame affiliates who were just doing there job and promoting a group that "had" been a respectable program at one time. No, i didn't keep records of all my payments or player stats, that would of been ridiculous to think I could, i am not set up to do this at every program that i work with,but i did have my payments on file with the ewallet's that were used to receive my payments monthly,but then they shut down also,taking any records i had from GP....now i can't even sign in via those ewallets because i am in the US.....

I don't care how you twist the story, its not our fault that a program decided to screw us over,no more than its a players fault when a casino that was a respected casino, decides to not pay them for thier winnings either.

 

[Webzcas]

I have mentioned this before and I will mention it again. Why were there only 70 odd claims filed with eCOGRA?

ANY affiliate who does this job full time reads the main industry forums such as GPWA, GIA, CAP, AGD and others, even if they do not participate. So why so few claims? You can't tell me the majority of affiliates with an issue with Grand Prive were not aware of the audit to be carried out by eCOGRA.

Whilst I am of the position that claims should not have had to be lodged with eCOGRA, the fact of the matter is that they were. Yet only 70 odd affiliates bothered to file.

What is it with that?

Does that seem like an extremely low number to you? It sure does to me.

This therefore intimates to me that either the majority of affiliates got 'paid off' by GP when they closed down, or/and the level of affiliates spurned by GP is nowhere near the level, the message board and video campaigns would lead one to believe.

One last point. It is extremely telling that the large super affiliates that you would expect to be beating the 'war drums' are and have been extremely quiet on the whole GP issue.

 

[greek39]

I'll say it once, and I'll say it again, affiliates are their worst enemy - in fact many shouldn't even be allowed to run a business - if in fact they are capable in running one at all. I'm not saying you Dom, but that comment is directed to many.

Alrighty then I hear yah no point in discussing the issue further here at the CM there are other channels.

They know that they don't need to take affiliates seriously because all they'll do is bitch and moan in the message boards and upload videos at Youtube.

A ridiculous statement but very funny.

Nice characterization of us all. Yes we try and keep the spirit of the web alive. Never before in human history has large companies, Government Agencies ever been held more accountable. Thanks to the web we can actually make change happen through words and not bullets. Oh yes no back door passes required anymore. No more attending secrete boardroom meeting whose decisions may seriously affect the lively hoods of others.

The ultimate act of betrayal.

I will show myself the way to the door.

greek39

 

[greek39]

I have mentioned this before and I will mention it again. Why were there only 70 odd claims filed with eCOGRA?

No workable stats and seriously eCogra with no affiliate representation. Yeah okay sounds groovy. This sort of attitude keeps the dirty business alive and provides a good Petri dish for these fungus organization to thrive. Much like the Virtual group.

greek39

 

[jetset]

Are you both now saying that this is all the affiliates fault?

Please tell me you are not going to try and blame affiliates who were just doing there job and promoting a group that "had" been a respectable program at one time. No, i didn't keep records of all my payments or player stats, that would of been ridiculous to think I could, i am not set up to do this at every program that i work with,but i did have my payments on file with the ewallet's that were used to receive my payments monthly,but then they shut down also,taking any records i had from GP....now i can't even sign in via those ewallets because i am in the US.....

I don't care how you twist the story, its not our fault that a program decided to screw us over,no more than its a players fault when a casino that was a respected casino, decides to not pay them for thier winnings either.

This emotional and aggressive response to legitimate questions relevant to the issue under discussion (along with the one from Greek 39 following it and rushing off in a huff) is precisely the reason why some affiliates tend to become their own worst enemies.

What's with the throwing unwarranted insults and accusations around like confetti, and drawing conclusions valid only in your own minds?

You're running a business, even if it is only a small one, and to me that suggests a modicum of independent care is essential in keeping accurate records - especially where these pertain to revenues. Maybe if those affiliates posting on the issue had done that the collective would not now be scratching for numbers to backup their claims? Ya think?

No one is trying to "twist" (in itself an offensive insult in my view) anything here. What is being asked for is hard information backed by a little more than supposition and noise.

Or an understanding of why affiliates seem incapable of producing same.

Or some sign of a concrete plan based on the realities of the situation - litigation for instance.

 

[jetset]

I have mentioned this before and I will mention it again. Why were there only 70 odd claims filed with eCOGRA?

ANY affiliate who does this job full time reads the main industry forums such as GPWA, GIA, CAP, AGD and others, even if they do not participate. So why so few claims? You can't tell me the majority of affiliates with an issue with Grand Prive were not aware of the audit to be carried out by eCOGRA.

Whilst I am of the position that claims should not have had to be lodged with eCOGRA, the fact of the matter is that they were. Yet only 70 odd affiliates bothered to file.

What is it with that?

Does that seem like an extremely low number to you? It sure does to me.

This therefore intimates to me that either the majority of affiliates got 'paid off' by GP when they closed down, or/and the level of affiliates spurned by GP is nowhere near the level, the message board and video campaigns would lead one to believe.

One last point. It is extremely telling that the large super affiliates that you would expect to be beating the 'war drums' are and have been extremely quiet on the whole GP issue.

Actually, only 58 complaints, but imo this is as valid a question as the many accusations and theories that are currently being bandied about with little if any information of substance to back them.

The possibility appears to be spurned out of hand, perhaps because those affiliates doing all the posting don't want to consider it as something that detracts from what they wish to believe.

BTW, none of this affiliate probing should exonerate GP for not being more forthcoming and communicative with affiliates both from the get-go and subsequently, which might have obviated this massive furore in the first place way back in December 2008.

 

[greek39]

Forgot to mention CM’s huff the affiliate is not the enemy here. Not even sure if enemy is the correct word when business partners are victimized.

It is extremely telling that the large super affiliates that you would expect to be beating the 'war drums' are and have been extremely quiet on the whole GP issue.

Another suggestion affiliates are treated under a class system. Sorry I am only a midsized affiliate don’t pay me I not worthy. Know I work hard but please keep my earnings I will apply for food stamps. Please I will try and suppress my rage.

Want facts I will get them. One fact is Ecogra is in no position to audit anything and Microgaming has an obligation to make sure their software is not used for criminal activities. There two iron clad facts.

IMO

greek39

 

[Webzcas]

Another suggestion affiliates are treated under a class system. Sorry I am only a midsized affiliate don’t pay me I not worthy.

With respect Greek you have taken my comment entirely out of context. I do not class affiliates based on their revenue. Anyone who knows me or who has met me in person, knows I am not like that.

However the point I am making is that why have the obvious larger affiliates, whose revenue dwarfs the likes of mine or yours been silent on this issue?

Surely they would be the ones leading the chase?

 

[greek39]

Another suggestion affiliates are treated under a class system.

As I stated "another suggestion". And yes it does worry me somewhat the big ones accepted a massive payout. If true it was at the expense of smaller affiliates, tragic, unfair, and sick IMO.

greek39

 

[Webzcas]

If true it was at the expense of smaller affiliates, tragic, unfair, and sick IMO.

Agreed.

 

[jetset]

Forgot to mention CM’s huff the affiliate is not the enemy here. Not even sure if enemy is the correct word when business partners are victimized.



Another suggestion affiliates are treated under a class system. Sorry I am only a midsized affiliate don’t pay me I not worthy. Know I work hard but please keep my earnings I will apply for food stamps. Please I will try and suppress my rage.

Want facts I will get them. One fact is Ecogra is in no position to audit anything and Microgaming has an obligation to make sure their software is not used for criminal activities. There two iron clad facts.

IMO

greek39

Whilst I agree MGS has a duty to ensure its software is not used for criminal purposes, surely in a civilised world that criminal conduct has to be proved? Back to square one for the affiliates, I'm afraid - that has yet to be done.

Your comment on eCOGRA is far from an "iron-clad fact" and is in fact yet another unsupported personal opinion that bears scant resemblance to reality. Have you ever taken a look at the professional qualifications of the eCOGRA staff? I suggest you do, because they are well qualified to "audit anything" as you put it.

By all means supress your rage and deliver some solid information that takes the issue forward, rather than emotional ramblings and suggestions that those with an opinion different to your own are rogues and thieves on a par with Virtual et al LOL.

 

[dominique]

Ok, I very much want this to be my last comment here, this is starting to seriously affect me in a way business should not affect anyone.

1. The point of GP's exercise was to get rid of US affiliates who could not continue to send the usual number of players after MGS closed to new US players.

2. US citizens are ill advised to take part in lawsuits involving online gambling.

I have spent much of this thread trying to EXCLUDE peripherally involved organisations from the discussion except when needed to find facts. They keep being introduced by others.

No, I don't have detailed records except what Statsremote provides, and I deleted Referspot and GP during the Stats remote update earlier this year because they were inactive, had no chance of becoming active again and took up valuable space on my PC as the program attempts to gather new info several times a day. I am still trying to restore stats on an old computer but since the old version doesn't run after this update and I am non-tech it has been a pain so far.

Another point in case is that ALL other MGS affiliate programs continue to pay on US players as agreed, and I can look at these stats as comparison. If GP was still running, I would expect similair numbers there. The numbers have been similair throughout my working relationship with MGS casinos.

GP didn't screw ALL affiliates, only a specific group. Affiliates who were able to deliver after MGS' exit from the US were compensated and moved to the affiliate program #3, Fortuna. They were valuable for GP's future, US affiliates were so much trash, like I said before, the monkey on GP's back.

 

[greek39]

Your comment on eCOGRA is far from an "iron-clad fact" and is in fact yet another unsupported personal opinion that bears scant resemblance to reality.

Well then I suppose it would okay for Online Casinos to audit themselves for fair play. Much like Ecogra partly funded by MGS conducts audits themselves. Where is the unbiased third party? Not required lets keep it in the family sort of speak. Lets do away with the TST system I am confident the casino can do it themselves fairly.

JMO

greek39

 

[Casinomeister]

...
A ridiculous statement but very funny.

No it's not. Both CAP and the GPWA claim to be large associations of webmasters - am I correct? What exactly did these organizations do to pursue this issue in the interests of their members? Please remind me because I am unsure exactly what it was.

Nice characterization of us all.

I said many, not all. Big difference - but sure, put words in my mouth if it suits your agenda.

Oh yes no back door passes required anymore. No more attending secrete boardroom meeting whose decisions may seriously affect the lively hoods of others.

The ultimate act of betrayal.

If you are referring to me meeting with MGS 1) it wasn't "secret" - it was all very public. I announced it and requested members to post questions and issues that we could cover. 2) I wasn't there making "decisions", I was there gathering information and sharing with MGS concerns of players and affiliates. 3) wtf - betrayal? Do you want some dramatic music with that comment, or are you throwing that out there because it sounds intimidating? Ad hominem tactics seem to be the norm for the affiliate community I gather.

I will show myself the way to the door.

greek39

Whatever.

 

[greek39]

No it's not. Both CAP and the GPWA claim to be large associations of webmasters - am I correct? What exactly did these organizations do to pursue this issue in the interests of their members? Please remind me because I am unsure exactly what it was.

Very little because like most boards as their members increase their founding ideology tends to get polluted. Some where along the way they corrupt themselves and loose focus on what I consider matters most the members. No members, no power, and then holy crap I am loosing money here.

I said many, not all. Big difference - but sure, put words in my mouth if it suits your agenda.

Fair enough many and you just put words in my mouth by suggesting I have some sort of agenda. Alrighty then I wonder what? maybe a noble pursuit suites me fine.

If you are referring to me meeting with MGS 1) it wasn't "secret" - it was all very public. I announced it and requested members to post questions and issues that we could cover. 2) I wasn't there making "decisions", I was there gathering information and sharing with MGS concerns of players and affiliates. 3) wtf - betrayal? Do you want some dramatic music with that comment, or are you throwing that out there because it sounds intimidating? Ad hominem tactics seem to be the norm for the affiliate community I gather.

No several others have also met with MGS and nothing. Gathering information from players, affiliates to present to MGS. Will you claim affiliates use Ad hominem tactics and are the enemy lol? Sorry CM maybe you lost your focus IMO. Peoples lively hoods were affected by GP actions you appear to be trivializing many affiliates claims.

All said always remember what your pillars rest on same goes for other public boards.

greek39

 

[triple777s]

Mr C. i am also genuinely upset and angered by your attack of affiliates, and before you trivialize what i am saying, look back over you last few remarks and its obvious you have no respect for any affiliates, but aren't you one also? Don't you have link to casinos for players to join through you? How can you speak so lowly of affilaites, what the hell have we done to you? I just don't understand the remarks that are being said....?

I guess this is just a Players forum, and us low life affiliates need to stop coming by.