Fruit Frenzy Layout at Doyles...hmmm....

[felicie]

Wow I've got logs of spins on RTG's from way back but my trouble was, I never knew where I was headed with it. LOL. Great potential for a brain here but.....anyway all I know is that little banana headed fruit slot has always been where I went back to when the balance got too low but just now, I played $30 down to zip @$1.20 (didn't it use to be $1.25?) a spin and didn't even get one chance to plop the strawb into the mellon. That has never happened before.

 

[KasinoKing]

I played $30 down to zip @$1.20 (didn't it use to be $1.25?)

It's a 25-line slot - so the only way you could have spun @ $1.20/spin (5c coins) is if you accidentally had it set to only 24 win-lines...

KK

 

[KasinoKing]

I'm surprised there's not more interest in this thread as it is VERY significant in terms of RTP...

Anyway, I just tried Intertops in fun mode - no double pear...!
But what I did see was a single Pear appearing in at least 4 different reel-stops - so there must be quite a lot of them on that reel.

As a guide for anyone looking for this, we are talking about Reel 2, and the pair of Pears in question have a Banana above & Balloons below, so you will see one of these two configurations:

 

[Pinababy69]

the pair of Pears in question have a Banana above & Balloons below

Only on Casinomeister, lol.

I've watched the thread KK, but (for once) I don't really have much to say. The gist of it is that they've changed the reel strip layout, which alters the RTP? But didn't we always know that RTG had the three different RTP settings? I'm guessing the pear is the lowest paying symbol, which would mean they've adjusted the RTP to a lower percentage? Is there another way they could switch the RTP between 93, 95 and 97%, without altering the reel strip layout? I know I'm missing something here...which is why I need Rusty to explain it to me like I'm five.

 

[KasinoKing]

Only on Casinomeister, lol.

I've watched the thread KK, but (for once) I don't really have much to say. The gist of it is that they've changed the reel strip layout, which alters the RTP? But didn't we always know that RTG had the three different RTP settings? I'm guessing the pear is the lowest paying symbol, which would mean they've adjusted the RTP to a lower percentage? Is there another way they could switch the RTP between 93, 95 and 97%, without altering the reel strip layout? I know I'm missing something here...which is why I need Rusty to explain it to me like I'm five.

Actually the Pear isn't the lowest paying symbol - it's one of the highest! But adding it to the reels will still lower the RTP.
I actually think they add more than one symbol, and possibly more than one reel is effected too - we would not really notice. The only reason this one was spotted is because the 2 Pears are together.

OK, I'll try to explain it simply!
Say Reel 2 has just 1 wild symbol on it.
Obviously if this appears in the "window" you have a better chance of getting a win.
Suppose for the highest return variation that Reel 2 has 30 symbols;
Chance of getting the Wild in view = 1 in 10 (3 positions in 30).
If they added 3 lesser symbols, the chance of getting a Wild would be 1 in 11.
If they added 6 lesser symbols, the chance of getting a Wild would be 1 in 12.

So I hope you can see how this effects your expected return?

Another example:
Suppose you need 3 scatters on reels 1, 2 & 3 for a feature, and there's only 1 scatter per reel.
If there were 30 symbols per reel, the chance of hitting 3 scatters is 1/10 x 1/10 x 1/10 = 1 in 1000
At 33 symbols per reel it would be 11 x 11 x 11 = 1 in 1,331
At 36 symbols per reel it would be 12 x 12 x 12 = 1 in 1,728

That's a HUGE reduction in your chance of getting the feature just by adding a few symbols to the reels - and something most of us would never notice in normal play.
That's why I think this thread is so significant - if we could "crack" the reels we could tell which variation of slot we were playing, and then be able to choose which casino we wanted to play at; the one with 97% return, or the one with 92%...

KK

 

[Pinababy69]

Thank you KK....now I get it. And I guess that's why Rusty was so eager to have the reels mapped out as well? So do you figure that when the casinos "update" when you login, and it tells you that a new version of the lobby is ready to install.....what they've actually done is perhaps changed the game layouts, and either increased or decreased the RTP?

 

[thelawnet]

If you believe MG slots have a set RTP and are completely random without probability tables or weighting you are completely deluding yourself I'm afraid.

Essentially all the software works in a very similar same way.

Not sure what this means, but Wagerworks, for one, publicly state that their slots are random and not-weighted.

I don't think MG have weighted their games for a while, the statement about Mega Moolah weighting in the bonus game shows that they take this seriously.

 

[Setsuna]

Played real mode @ Inetbet - no double pears, either in normal and free spins .

Some screenshots of pears in reel 2 for those who'd like to compare :

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[thelawnet]

Actually the Pear isn't the lowest paying symbol - it's one of the highest! But adding it to the reels will still lower the RTP.

Maybe, maybe not. For instance, let's say that 3 Sausages pays 10 coins.

And there are 30 symbols on each reel, 5 sausages.

The chance of 3 sausages is then 5/30*5/30*5/30 - 1 in 216.

The payout would be 4.630%

Add another symbol to reel 2, and the chance falls to 1 in 223, the payout to 4.45% - a fall in RTP, if replicated across the board, of 3.33%.

If 3 pears has the same probability and payout, the return would increase due to the 6/31 term from 4.630% to 5.376%. Which obviously is less than 3.33%, but what if it was one of those slots where they kill the payout by only putting a small number of symbols on one of the reels?

Say the payout for 3 pears is 20 coins and there are 5,1,10 symbols on the first three reels. By adding a single pear to reel 2 you boost the payout of 3 pears from 3.704% to 7.169%. Which is enough to offset the fall from other symbols, and that's before you consider the fact that 4 and 5 pears are now far more likely.

It's not right to say that adding a symbol will always reduce the payout.

I would look at how many pears are on this reel already. If they are rare, it is quite possible that this has increased the payout. If there are already lots, it is probably done to reduce the payout.

But no conspiracy theories without evidence please.

 

[KasinoKing]

It's not right to say that adding a symbol will always reduce the payout.

I understand where you're coming from, and you are quite correct of course.
But I was trying to keep the explanation simple!
OK, then I'll say there's an extremely good chance that adding symbols reduces the payout.

If we had the FULL reel-strips we could calculate the approximate RTP and then know for sure what the effect of extra symbols is.

But no conspiracy theories without evidence please.

Was that comment aimed at me, or Rusty...?

Thank you KK....now I get it. And I guess that's why Rusty was so eager to have the reels mapped out as well? So do you figure that when the casinos "update" when you login, and it tells you that a new version of the lobby is ready to install.....what they've actually done is perhaps changed the game layouts, and either increased or decreased the RTP?

It's possible, but I think it's very unlikely that EVERY update is a change to RTP.

It's very annoying, but all download softwares seem to do these "updates" far too frequently.
I wish they would tell us what exactly they are updating, but I reckon that ain't never gonna happen.

KK

 

[bb28]

It bothers me that most RTG's do not post the RTP on their website. We can only assume that the reasons that they do not is they don't want us to know or they change it often. Either scenario sucks!

 

[vinylweatherman]

Played real mode @ Inetbet - no double pears, either in normal and free spins .

Some screenshots of pears in reel 2 for those who'd like to compare :

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

This is significant, since iNetBet are on record stating THEIR slots are on the 95% they came with as "standard", and they have no intention of lowering the RTP as a means to increase profit. Since they are accredited, I am taking this as a true statement made "in good faith".

It bothers me that most RTG's do not post the RTP on their website. We can only assume that the reasons that they do not is they don't want us to know or they change it often. Either scenario sucks!

They don't want players to know it is even POSSIBLE to change the RTP. Many of these casinos will quote an unverified payout percentage, but will not give the basis for it's calculation, and often with the likes of RTG it is THEY that have selected the month they use, which is probably a best case scenario for the player. Once they change RTP, any payout based on past performance becomes meaningless, but I'll bet it is STILL there on the website.

It is hard to calculate the RTP of Fruit Frenzy because of the bonus round, but it should be possible to calculate the RTP of simpler slots, where there are only free spins and multipliers, and no "behind the scenes" probability schedules in use.

 

[Pulver]

I find this thread very interesting as I always had the hunch that some RTG casinos had a lower RTP setting than others.

I have over the past few weeks played a few thousand spins on Cuba Club Casino, and I always had the feeling that the games where very tight there. I know that my samplesize is way to small to give conclusive evidence of any sort. But I always had the feeling that my money lasted way shorter there than at other RTG casinos I play.

So in the spirit of this thread I fired up fruit frenzy, and indeed, 2 pears on reel 2...

This may support Vinyl's theory that 2 pears = lowest RTP setting.


I personally belive that it is a disgrace that an operator can change the RTP setting of any game at their liking.

 

[thelawnet]

I find this thread very interesting as I always had the hunch that some RTG casinos had a lower RTP setting than others.

I have over the past few weeks played a few thousand spins on Cuba Club Casino, and I always had the feeling that the games where very tight there. I know that my samplesize is way to small to give conclusive evidence of any sort. But I always had the feeling that my money lasted way shorter there than at other RTG casinos I play.

So in the spirit of this thread I fired up fruit frenzy, and indeed, 2 pears on reel 2...

This may support Vinyl's theory that 2 pears = lowest RTP setting.


I personally belive that it is a disgrace that an operator can change the RTP setting of any game at their liking.

They do it for the video poker games. It's not really a surprise that they do it for slots either.

Unless the operator publishes the return, you really can't complain that you're being cheated - solution, play elsewhere.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I find this thread very interesting as I always had the hunch that some RTG casinos had a lower RTP setting than others.

I have over the past few weeks played a few thousand spins on Cuba Club Casino, and I always had the feeling that the games where very tight there. I know that my samplesize is way to small to give conclusive evidence of any sort. But I always had the feeling that my money lasted way shorter there than at other RTG casinos I play.

So in the spirit of this thread I fired up fruit frenzy, and indeed, 2 pears on reel 2...

This may support Vinyl's theory that 2 pears = lowest RTP setting.


I personally belive that it is a disgrace that an operator can change the RTP setting of any game at their liking.

Well, an "unofficial" rep for Playfair casino has stated on another thread that THEIR Fruit Frenzy is on 97%.

IF we can prove his/her credibilty, and that of the casino, we can THEN check Fruit Frenzy at Playfair. IF we don't see the two pears, we then can isolate the 2 pear variant as being 93%.

It follows by business logic that if Fruit Frenzy is 93% at a casino, in general their slots are far more likely to have been lowered to 93%, rather than 97%, or indeed left alone.

If we can then identify something on a 97% Fruit Frenzy, we then have a tool to determine which RTG casinos are more likely to be set to low RTP, "standard" RTP, and High RTP

I doubt it will last, since casinos may then DELIBERATELY set Fruit Frenzy to 95% or 97% to fool players, whilst setting the rest to lower RTP settings.

 

[casinojack]

Well, an "unofficial" rep for Playfair casino has stated on another thread that THEIR Fruit Frenzy is on 97%.

IF we can prove his/her credibilty, and that of the casino, we can THEN check Fruit Frenzy at Playfair. IF we don't see the two pears, we then can isolate the 2 pear variant as being 93%.

It follows by business logic that if Fruit Frenzy is 93% at a casino, in general their slots are far more likely to have been lowered to 93%, rather than 97%, or indeed left alone.

If we can then identify something on a 97% Fruit Frenzy, we then have a tool to determine which RTG casinos are more likely to be set to low RTP, "standard" RTP, and High RTP

I doubt it will last, since casinos may then DELIBERATELY set Fruit Frenzy to 95% or 97% to fool players, whilst setting the rest to lower RTP settings.

Setting is 97.5%, Hope this helps...

 

[mac-online]

A question conscerning software providers and their control on their games... When I am playing a slot (Fruit Frenzy for example) where is the video actually coming from? I thought it was from the software provider not the casino. But if it is from the software provider how could a casino change the reels? Do some providers manage the video and others let the casino serve it?

 

[casinojack]

re: RTG, ops can change payouts not symbols on the wheel....

 

[mac-online]

re: RTG, ops can change payouts not symbols on the wheel....

How about other Software providers. Can the ops in every casino with every software provider change the payouts?

But.... Waite... we are talking about changing reels in this thread. So I am lost here. Are the casinos or the sloftware provider changing the reels on Fruit Frenzy?

 

[KasinoKing]

How about other Software providers. Can the ops in every casino with every software provider change the payouts?

We don't know.
And it's very unlikely that anyone who does know is going to come & post about it on a public forum, though personally I don't understand all the secrecy...

But.... Waite... we are talking about changing reels in this thread. So I am lost here. Are the casinos or the sloftware provider changing the reels on Fruit Frenzy?

The software provider.
It would be a VERY dark day for players if the individual casinos could tinker with any of their games!

From what others have posted; RTG casinos can ask RTG themselves to set any of their slots to one of 3 RTP settings. They can also apparently request different Video Poker paytables, and some card games too (e.g. Stud or 3-card poker).

I don't recall ever hearing of any of the other main software providers offering these facilities to their clients... but who knows?

KK

 

[mac-online]

Yow... RTG is Unreal!!

OK one more question... Can all casinos with all software providers adjust their RTP's? or just certain ones?

As a player i asked CasinoEuro (NetEnt) if they could and they said NO!

 

[vinylweatherman]

I am looking into this with regard to Fruit Frenzy. I have long known that RTG operators have the option to select different payouts on the games. This was "bleedin' obvious" to me when I found 40/25 tri-card poker on one RTG casino, and "full pay" 40/30 at another. We later discovered (but without any concrete evidence) that the slots had different settings. A number of RTG operators have admitted this, but that they can only choose from three settings, they CANNOT mess with the reels.

We now have a games developer on board, who describes how games such as Fruit Frenzy are set up, 3 different layouts are designed, and these form the three RTP settings available to the operator. The operator chooses the setting they want, and it is the software that selects the appropriate layout to be used.

The first concrete proof that alternate settings were indeed being used came when the "double pear" version of Fruit Frenzy was discovered, and demonstrates that RTP changes are effected by changing reel layouts. It is also possible that probability schedules are changed in the slots using "pick X of Y" type bonus rounds - the earlier Fruit Frenzy error gave some indication of this, where a screw up meant that no win greater than 5 spins could be awarded due to a messed up probability schedule (now fixed by RTG of course).

Unlike RTG, I have never had any kind of evidence that RTP can be changed in games from the other MAIN providers. We DO know however, that Rival games are regularly "tweaked", as well as Top Game. These developers did this because of poor player feedback, however they have introduced the proverbial "can of worms" because we now know that the games can be messed with.

 

[casinojack]

Yow... RTG is Unreal!!

OK one more question... Can all casinos with all software providers adjust their RTP's? or just certain ones?

As a player i asked CasinoEuro (NetEnt) if they could and they said NO!

IMO, RTG does a GREAT job! the software controls they have are like every other half way decent software provider, land based and online. All casinos need the ability to tweak things.

Example. Las Vegas law (last I checked) mandated that slots RTP MIN is set to 75%!! 75% !! This is robbery,,,,I think the lowest setting for any slot is 86% and many min are in the 90%! This is much more fair then Las Vegas! and Atlantic city is about 80% I think so still in line....

When you play a slot at a land based casino what % is it? Some might have 2 -3 advertised at 99% or whatever, but please note, these numbers change very often at landbased also.

I speak for the casino i work for and not RTG, and I think there are a few good software makers out there....But I think sometimes RTG gets blamed for things, or suck with things, that is not really their fault...

 

[thelawnet]

I speak for the casino i work for and not RTG, and I think there are a few good software makers out there....But I think sometimes RTG gets blamed for things, or suck with things, that is not really their fault...

Like continuing to deal with crooked casinos, year after year?

 

[mac-online]

If I was one of the of Bads or the Uglies and wanted to open a new casino for my own, there would be only two software companies to choose from Real Time Gaming or RTG. That is what I am hearing here. The adjustment capability has to be sexy as hell for those guys. Yes... and if I were one of the Good Guys and had to choose, I think I wouldn't avoid RTG and the bad company they keep, whether I liked their software or not. There is a lot of other softwares to choose from out there.

But i can agree with KJ in his perspective that online casinos are a better bet than B&M. Yet online can have a lot less overhead. And I am listening to him when he says:

"I speak for the casino i work(own) for and not RTG, and I think there are a few good software makers out there....But I think sometimes RTG gets blamed for things, or stuck with things, that is not really their fault..."
I totally believe that as well. But I know my son's casinos are not tweaked AT ALL and the software providers wouldn't go for it if he wanted to... which he doesn't. So I don't know about that Big Jack. If it needs to be tweeked because of bad design it could be done shortly after release.

The trouble with the rougues is that they are focusing on a very dizzy perspective of life. When things are good, then normal/most/you/me have a tendance to get drunk in it. It is very intoxicating and you want/need more. It is a normal addiction pattern. It might not be my exact addiction but I do deal with my own and know it intimately. It is almost imposible for them to act otherwise.