Marc"myst"Karam, Eurolinx sponsored player, recently posted his story at 2+2. Very interesting and gives a hint when EL started to go downwards. In June 2008, so way before they bought BetOnBet and started Linx Casino.
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Also one affected player actually got a response from MG which was the following:
Thank you for your e-mail.
We are shocked and saddened that this has happened to one of our licensees.
We are currently unable to discuss anything regarding the situation as we are still waiting on further information ourselves. Information will be released as and when it becomes available.
Please understand that Microgamings activities are limited to providing software and poker network services. In keeping with the practises of other service providers, whether software or otherwise, Microgaming does not manage the business activities of its operators. Microgaming does not have any right to see the financial records or accounts of its operators.
Microgaming does not (and is not permitted to) hold player funds. We recommend that you lodge a claim directly with the liquidator as and when information becomes available. Microgaming will be taking this course of action, as should all creditors.
Thank you once again for your e-mail.
Microgaming
So they say they are shocked. Really? Several players reported months ago about problems with EL/BOB.
They say they just provide the network and software. And whats the BS about not being permitted to hold player funds? That should be the practice for every poker network. Still they handle the site to site transfers, banning etc.
And about not being permitted to see any finacial records of their licensees. So basically every non-traded casino or poker room can go bust the next day without MG having a clue. Just start a casino or poker room and start to scam people. And EL/BOB would probably still be operating if they hadnt "invited" MG to their offices.
And to those that have their rolls there. There probably will not be any liquidation. Because theres apparently so little money left that it wouldnt be enough to pay the liquidators.
Have a "semi"friend that managed to dump his entire roll of ~8k. Wonder how much dumping went on over the summer?
Edit: so if you want to be safe playing at MG choose a PLC. 32Red, Unibet or Ladbrokes.
Have a "semi"friend that managed to dump his entire roll of ~8k. Wonder how much dumping went on over the summer?
IF MGS argue that the money in balances at individual operators is NOT protected by any kind of "ring fencing", yet expect DIFFERENT operators to trust in the network when this money moves BETWEEN the different operators, how exactly is this working so that OPERATORS are protected, yet PLAYERS are NOT.
Now as an affiliate and I might add a player, I find it incredulous that Microgaming have somehow let their once high standards drop, allowing their players and affiliates of microgaming powered online casinos which have gone to the wall left hung out to dry.
The casino that has gone to the wall most recently is EuroLinx.
Microgaming charge a high percentage on profit of all their operators each and every month. They have a moral obligation to ensure the players at Eurolinx get paid out in full. They also could have stopped Grand Prive stealing the monies from all their affiliate partners. Yet they have done nothing, absolutely nothing.
Shame on you Microgaming. Your inaction is a bad reflection on your decent upstanding operators. Who should be mortified that your lack of leadership on these issues is indirectly affecting them.
This has me thinking, none of the money actually existed at Eurolinx, they were bust. If balances were dumped from Eurolinx to other SOLVENT skins in the network, how did THESE skins get their money, and are THEY hurting from the money arriving from Eurolinx players to theirs having no actual value in the real world. When players come to cash the money out, it had better have value, but who is going to pay?
IF MGS argue that the money in balances at individual operators is NOT protected by any kind of "ring fencing", yet expect DIFFERENT operators to trust in the network when this money moves BETWEEN the different operators, how exactly is this working so that OPERATORS are protected, yet PLAYERS are NOT.
Something isn't adding up here, or does money NEVER move between different operators, so this is never an issue.
MG obviously holds part of the money to ensure the site to site transfers goes smoothly. In TUSK they held some 300k+ which was returned to TUSK after the termination of the license.
And as there arent any games at nosebleed level thats not a problem. At that level a single player can lose over 1 million/day.
MG apparently takes 17% of the rake generated. I know some players had earned MG far more rake than they are owed, in both cases (TUSK and Linx).
And MG will never step up, its not worth it. In TUSK players are owed 5,3 million AUD and in Eurolinx/BetOnBet the numbers are most likely much higher. Checked at one Finnish RB affiliate, a quick estimation gave some 300-400k () owed to those players already.
So I think Im not exaggerating when I believe the total owed is well over 10 million. Given how little publicity both cases have got you will never see MG bailing them out. Even if they are to blame quite much in both cases.
Take my argument to the extreme; what if EVERY player had somehow got wind of this, and ALL balances at Eurolinx were "dumped" to accounts at other, fully solvent, operators. These OPERATORS would be EXPECTING the money to be "good", as they would be required to pay it out to their players. If MGS do not have the money in a "ring fence" somewhere, this scenario could lead to complete DISASTER, with SOLVENT operators being dragged into insolvency through being unable to make good the money won from players in the insolvent operator.
Since this keeps on happening, and TWICE now with MGS, we will see more players getting "twitchy" when things just don't seem right, and MORE in the way of this "dumping" taking place. This could actually CREATE a problem when the issues causing the initial "twitchiness" were NOTHING to do with another operator going bust, but purely down to the "twice bitten, thrice shy" attitude of players to some operational issues, like the operator losing it's internet connection for a while, then it returning with "problems".
Chipdumping isnt that easy, if you dont wanna get caught. The player I mentioned did it over a period of two weeks, and he played pretty much his normal limits. Altough if you were caught it was definitely an EV+ situation to at least try.
And MG surely was watching the action at tables more carefully, they must have been aware that players were desperate.
The funds arent actually immediately withdrawable, at least not at Ladbrokes. Edit: Someone who knows better could comment.
Its interesting what you mentioned if in future there would be, lets say GENUINE processing problems. How would players act? Altough I dont see why anyone would still play at MG network.
One site was most likely quite close to bust recently (at least they were bleeding heavily), they recently changed ownership. But what I know they would have had the players money ringfenced.
If MGS had ACTED as though they knew, they could become liable for damages for failing to use their "knowing" to step in & protect players' funds. MGS, in the case of TUSK, claim they acted as soon as they knew, which they claim was when the licencee informed them that they intended to go into liquidation.
There are a few other non-MGS poker rooms that have "disappeared" without notice, and players fear that these too have gone bust. Every time this happens, and players get screwed, the trust in online poker is chipped away. Eurolinx seems to be the first time an MG CASINO has gone bust, and NOT been swiftly taken over by another group who honoured players' balances. The two cases before, Integrity & Casino Action, were both rescued by Casino Rewards, who probably have a serious case of indigestion by now, and so cannot manage Eurolinx casino for desert.
It seems that the above assumption was right. Its over 2 months since they went belly up and no sign of any liquidators.
Does anyone know if theres been any progress with LGA (any former BetOnBet player)?
And I didnt keep my own word "Had" to reopen my 32Red account.
...So what does this indicate? Well hopefully not that the LGA is just another rubber stamp licensing agency primarily set up to shelter the casino operators from massive taxes. In order to have a driver's license, you have to know how to drive. And if you screw up bad enough the license is taken away. The reason why we have licenses is to protect the pedestrians and other drivers from getting smashed into or run over. This should be no different in the gaming industry - the license is to ensure player safety.
In fact the operator owes them money - they're looking for him as well. He also said that they had done their due diligence with background checks on this guy Jo Remme.
Chipdumping isnt that easy, if you dont wanna get caught. The player I mentioned did it over a period of two weeks, and he played pretty much his normal limits. Altough if you were caught it was definitely an EV+ situation to at least try.
And MG surely was watching the action at tables more carefully, they must have been aware that players were desperate.
The funds arent actually immediately withdrawable, at least not at Ladbrokes. Edit: Someone who knows better could comment.
Its interesting what you mentioned if in future there would be, lets say GENUINE processing problems. How would players act? Altough I dont see why anyone would still play at MG network.
One site was most likely quite close to bust recently (at least they were bleeding heavily), they recently changed ownership. But what I know they would have had the players money ringfenced.
Malta.....lip service, that's all you'll get - when they actually respond to you.
Major disappointment these people. They ought to lose their licensing abilities for being so non-player focused.
This is from last year's awards. Biggest Disappointment of 2008:
Best Worst 2008
I have another issue with them from one of our members. The LGA reps at the EIG told me that they were aware of this player's problem and were dealing with it. The player hasn't heard diddly squat. What a crock of doo doo.
Looks like a repeat award this year
As for MGS getting massive percentages from operators, I don't think this is true with the poker rooms. I spoke to their CEO at the EIG about this, and he told me the percentage from Poker rooms is miniscule. In fact the operator owes them money - they're looking for him as well. He also said that they had done their due diligence with background checks on this guy Jo Remme.
But no-one is exempt from being fooled, right? Remember last year when this guy (Jo Remme) lied to me? This was a very public player issue - spread all over 2+2 and here. Eurolinx was yanked off the site because of this...yet people kept playing.
Caveat emptor - or a fool and his money are soon parted...
I'll check with MGS on what their position is on this. I'm not sure if they are dealing with this or what.
I can buy the fact that not everyone knows about Casinomeister - but most everyone has heard of Google. Search "eurolinx problems" and the thread pops up detailing their removal at #2. This was the same result prior to their fuck-up....Correct about warning signals last year. Sadly many newer poker players dont know about this site. Also according to Marc"myst"Karam it was a few months after that the problems started. But there were many players on BoB that didnt have a clue about it...
I can buy the fact that not everyone knows about Casinomeister - but most everyone has heard of Google. Search "eurolinx problems" and the thread pops up detailing their removal at #2. This was the same result prior to their fuck-up. :rolleyes:
I find it hard to sympathize with seasoned players who ignore the warnings that are a Google search away, and then are shocked when a company goes tits up. People need to exercise a little more discretion when it comes to choosing poker rooms etc.
But that's a little off topic - don't need to go there.
And in 2008 many highstake players succesfully cashed out their rolls after the big games on MG dried up. Several players with rolls of 500k+ (hearsay about the sizes of rolls).
If you're getting your info from the main poker forums you have to realise there is literally SO much dribble about rolls there it's hard to believe a fraction of what they claim is true. I stopped posting on 2+2 and some of the other larger forums because I got tired of seeing players claim things I could easily disprove - and I didn't want to just be a "Truth Policeman" with all those retarded egos who would either sit out when I sat or who didn't even play the stakes they claimed.
But I will concur with you to Bryan that Eurolinx's reputation (right up until a month or so before disaster) was still viewed by most poker players in a positive light - I'm not sure when exactly it clicked for me that it was "game over" but I'd be lying if I claimed it was 2-3 months before the fact...even though problems starting showing up > 4 months (?) before they capitulated.
The poker community has a lot to answer for in this regard. I seriously don't know what's with players who don't make things like this public, but I had close friends in the final fortnight when it was 100% Titanic panic-Skype me saying they had 5 figure amounts pending for months?!!? And that Eurolinx wasn't reversing their w/d requests so they couldn't dump. After I ridiculed them, I helped a couple with some cheeky tricks which worked (if small remaining balance, dump it on high HA casino sidegames, then ask w/d reversed etc ). If I had a pending withdrawal > (such a short time for poker - a week max or less for processors), I would have pretty much covered forums with that news. I never understand why people stay quiet about these things.
(As for dumping, yes ofc 50+ buyins is trickier - still easy if you know what you're doing. And if you're a tourney player with a huge roll on there, unless they hit big scores towards the end, all I'd say is...Why? You don't need 50k to play tournaments on *any* site, regardless of volume.)
That info is from Marc Karams post. There used to be nosebleed games at MG, up to 200/400. So I dont see any reason why it wouldnt be true.
Hi folks after this whole fiasco, there is another microgaming operator i have been watching foa a few months now, both players and affiliates are having to wait weeks to receiver withdrawals/commission payouts, the rep is listen on this forum and has apprently stopped responding to players emails, i will name the operator because i dont want anyone to be scammed again, it is nedplay, so if you play at this casino be very careful and expect a delay in weeks for withdrawals to be processed, something at this casino is not right, but i will continue to monitor check the casino rep page on this forum and you will see a number of cases where players are still waiting for withdrawals from in october, something is definetly wrong!!!!1