Whine and Moan EU Casino - Play now, pay later... PugglePay

[maphesto]

I did hestitate whether this would be good to post or not. This might turn the wrong way when "broke" players with gambling problems see this.

I find this pretty disgusting, to be frank. I received an email from EU Casino, written in swedish unfortuntely. Otherwise I could've given you the text here.

In short:

EU Casino have a new payment option, play now and pay within 14 days, using invoice. The name of the payment option is Puggle Pay. This seems to be a swedish company and I don't know if it's possible to use it for non swedes. I think this is a terrible way to make people deposit with money they don't have.

EU Casino isn't a good one, maye this is the only way to make people play there. Disgusting is my word! :icon_evil

 

[homerbert]

i playing there, few days ago received my 2k$ withdrawal in two days.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Terms for PugglePay invoice

Purchases are made through using your personal identification number and payment is made afterwards with an invoice.

Payment time is 14 days
The invoice is sent to your submitted email address
PugglePay invoice works for individuals registered in Sweden. If payment is not made in due time a reminder fee of 50 SEK (and late payment interest rate of 8%) will be added.

At the time of the transaction a credit assessment is made which in some cases is based on an external credit check. In such a case you will receive a copy of such a credit check per mail/e-mail. Your personal data is handled by PugglePay for the following purposes; customer administration, credit assessment, identification and marketing. Your personal identification number also constitutes your customer-ID here at PugglePay and your personal data might be handled outside of the European Union.

Yes, that's it, the ENTIRE terms and conditions for using Puggle Pay

This screams "dodgy" as surely any kind of scheme like this is a credit facility, and they usually come with pages of terms.

When I tried to click through from the casino site, it crashed the browser and I had to use task manager to get out of it. This should NOT happen unless they are doing something more than making a simple image link as the means to access the details for this method.

It makes me think this is a "fake" online shopping facility designed purely to front deposits to the casino, much like the UIGEA dodging Dubai bike shop.

I bet they will hold on to withdrawals based on Puggle Pay deposits for quite some time, as it is at least 14 days before the player has to pay up.

The easiest way to scam this system would seem to be to not pay the invoice on time, but string Puggle Pay along thinking that they will get the money out of you in the end, just with their fee and interest added. Even if the casino (if it has any sense) insists that withdrawals will only be sent back to Puggle Pay, it still offers an opportunity for a "free hit" scam where a player only pays Puggle Pay if they win, but walks away when they lose.

How easy it is for Puggle Pay to chase the money then depends on Swedish credit laws. Here in the UK, it would be unsecured credit, and as such could easily become "bad debt". Unlike a chargeback, the player could claim they just can't pay, and ran up the debt through a loss of control of how much they gambled away because they were able to play on credit. They would not have to pretend their Puggle Pay was hacked in order to get the money back, a dodge used by chargeback frauds who pretend their card got stolen as a means to get out of paying off losing bets.

The only protection Puggle Pay seems to have is that they credit check customers before granting them an account. This is no defense against those tempted to spend beyond their means, or who aim to game the system from the outset.

Credit cards have already shown that they consider gambling transactions are high risk, probably because of the number of bad debts they have had to write off from those who max out their cards on gambling sites, and then can't pay.

 

[maphesto]

i playing there, few days ago received my 2k$ withdrawal in two days.

They might have some positive things but many posts earlier here at CM really showed that they have som bad tactics.

From this year:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/eu-casino-experiences.49090/

Those T&C:s are terrible. I haven't checked these terms now, maybe they are changed.

 

[homerbert]

A bonus cannot be claimed if player has made a withdrawal in the last 7 days or if the player has a balance in his account of more than €1000. EUcasino reserves the right to block bonuses in these cases.
this not correct already.
I already cashouted 3600 from there, no any problems, live help very helpful, lot of promos etc. Only bad that 10k per month, but i still did not win 10k

 

[sapit222]

Not sure about the casino, but Pugglepay seems to be a bad1 atleast.
Did a quick check on the net. Its not registered in Sweden.
I found Pugglepay Ltd registered in England:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Not so much information on their site.

 

[rainmaker]

.

I asked their live chat and they confirmed that this option also is available for Norwegian players.

Online casinos that are offering credit to players belong in the Rogue Pit. Very unacceptable of course.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Looks highly suspect.

Only set up in May this year, and the company secretary is "corporate company secretaries Ltd" rather than an actual person. the capital is listed as a mere £1000. It's address is nothing more than a bulk mailing address, so the company does not actually operate from the UK, and does not have an actual person as company secretary. It is pretty secretive for a company that is handling invoicing and the personal details of customers. It dare not offer the services to UK players, nor indeed those from full EU members, which is probably why it targets Scandinavian players, yet is incorporated in the UK. I bet it doesn't even have a license from the FSA, and since it offers credit, it is supposed to have one.

It may even be acting illegaly under UK laws, as all companies that offer credit have to be licensed, and secrecy about who is behind the company is not an option. It must be hoping that by only offering credit offshore, it does not need a license from the FSA. It may also be that it would need a license from Sweden and Norway in order to be registered there.

Many companies seem to incorporate in the UK in this odd manner, as it gives them the credibilty of a UK registration, which if not looked into too deeply, could lend it a credibilty it does not deserve.

However, as it offers credit, the company, not the player, is going to end up out of pocket if things go wrong. Worryingly, for the casinos, the debts may be difficult to enforce in law, making it easy for players to use the service as a "free hit" against a casino.

What do they do if a Swedish player flatly refuses to pay their invoice after 14 days?

 

[Simple and Safe]

PugglePay Customer Service

Dear Reader,

PugglePay offers a very common payment method for Scandinavian customers called “Faktura”. There are many companies that provide this solution in Sweden and it is a local and “cultural” payment method. Hence, example for UK citizens “Faktura” will never be usable and the method might appear a bit odd.

In Scandinavia “Faktura” is ranked by official surveys as the preferred solution before credit and debit cards, bank transfers and e-wallets within the e-commerce. Within the e-commerce in Scandinavia around 60 percent of the customers choose to pay via the “Faktura” solution. This is due to its nature, consumer find it very easy to use and also a very safe payment method.

When paying with Faktura, a credit assessment is always done on the person paying. This makes the solution very proactive and responsible, giving us the option (at each and every moment) to only accept payment to people with god financial condition as PugglePay and our peers have access to public official data of the peoples financial status. On top of that Faktura is only offered for low payment amounts for those that have a good financial situation. This is one of the reasons that Swedish Monopoly companies within the i-gaming industry offer “Faktura” to their customers.

If you have any more questions, please contact our customer support via pugglepay.com.

Thanks for reading,

Best regards,

Carl
PugglePay Customer Service
kundservice@pugglepay.se
+46 (0)775 161 740

 

[sapit222]

Dear Reader,

PugglePay offers a very common payment method for Scandinavian customers called “Faktura”. There are many companies that provide this solution in Sweden and it is a local and “cultural” payment method. Hence, example for UK citizens “Faktura” will never be usable and the method might appear a bit odd.

In Scandinavia “Faktura” is ranked by official surveys as the preferred solution before credit and debit cards, bank transfers and e-wallets within the e-commerce. Within the e-commerce in Scandinavia around 60 percent of the customers choose to pay via the “Faktura” solution. This is due to its nature, consumer find it very easy to use and also a very safe payment method.

When paying with Faktura, a credit assessment is always done on the person paying. This makes the solution very proactive and responsible, giving us the option (at each and every moment) to only accept payment to people with god financial condition as PugglePay and our peers have access to public official data of the peoples financial status. On top of that Faktura is only offered for low payment amounts for those that have a good financial situation. This is one of the reasons that Swedish Monopoly companies within the i-gaming industry offer “Faktura” to their customers.

If you have any more questions, please contact our customer support via pugglepay.com.

Thanks for reading,

Best regards,

Carl
PugglePay Customer Service
kundservice@pugglepay.se
+46 (0)775 161 740

Its correct that "faktura" is very common in Sweden, but its just when buying things online/per phone. Not online gambling.
I think it would be very bad to be able to use "faktura" when playing on a casino etc.
I hope its taken away as an option at all online gambling sites asap.

 

[Tirilej]

I agree! It doesn't matter if you say you make a creditcheck on these gamblers, because sooner or later they will run out of fonds, just because this option exists. It's like go to a bank and take a loan just to spend it on gambling.
People do that and you know it.
You just work there so I don't blame you but this is really awful

I havn't seen this option and I do hope I don't either because it's too tempting, and I don't want or need the choice.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Dear Reader,

PugglePay offers a very common payment method for Scandinavian customers called “Faktura”. There are many companies that provide this solution in Sweden and it is a local and “cultural” payment method. Hence, example for UK citizens “Faktura” will never be usable and the method might appear a bit odd.

In Scandinavia “Faktura” is ranked by official surveys as the preferred solution before credit and debit cards, bank transfers and e-wallets within the e-commerce. Within the e-commerce in Scandinavia around 60 percent of the customers choose to pay via the “Faktura” solution. This is due to its nature, consumer find it very easy to use and also a very safe payment method.

When paying with Faktura, a credit assessment is always done on the person paying. This makes the solution very proactive and responsible, giving us the option (at each and every moment) to only accept payment to people with god financial condition as PugglePay and our peers have access to public official data of the peoples financial status. On top of that Faktura is only offered for low payment amounts for those that have a good financial situation. This is one of the reasons that Swedish Monopoly companies within the i-gaming industry offer “Faktura” to their customers.

If you have any more questions, please contact our customer support via pugglepay.com.

Thanks for reading,

Best regards,

Carl
PugglePay Customer Service
kundservice@pugglepay.se
+46 (0)775 161 740

So, how come you are based in the UK, and don't even have an actual office there, merely a maildrop. Surely you should be based in Sweden for example, as this is where your customers live.

You don't even have a proper company secretary, so not really a proper company, merely a "paper entity".

Of course it is safe for players, it is THEY who are going to owe YOU money. If they refuse to pay up, what happens. Normally, in a retail setting, they could be taken to court, and/or the retailer takes back the goods. With gambling, there are no goods to seize, and the "retailer" may be based offshore. Unless Swedish law makes gambling debts enforceable in court, you will struggle to get the money back this way. In the UK, it is only recently that the law recognised gambling debts. Before then, there was no legal obligation to pay up if granted credit for gambling. It was the operators that pressed for the change, as they feared that some players would use this legal loophole to walk away from gambling losses, yet expect to be paid any winnings.

As you are effectively offering short term credit, do you have a license to do so from the FSA? (Since you are UK based). If not, why don't you need one?

 

[Tirilej]

No court will be involve in this whatever happens, but the person that don't pay will not be able to lend any money anywhere for the first 3-5 years. Don't really know how long in these cases. Nothing else, but it's bad enough.

 

[Dipity]

Useless fact of the day, 'Factura' is invoice in Spanish.

On topic: This is unbelievable for casinos. I cannot believe that casinos are even allowing this, unless they are 100% rogue. This is predatory tactics at their finest, and I'd like to see EU Casino either remove this method OR be chucked straight in the rogue pit.

I accept that it's normal for shops etc, especially on large purchases for the kitchen, or lounge, but for online gambling, this is just crazy.

 

[Balthazar]

When i play with my credit card, I also receive an invoice and I also have to pay in time otherwise I have to pay fees. How is Faktura any different?

 

[vinylweatherman]

No court will be involve in this whatever happens, but the person that don't pay will not be able to lend any money anywhere for the first 3-5 years. Don't really know how long in these cases. Nothing else, but it's bad enough.

Maybe so, but rogue players to set out to charge back losses take this risk all the time. They don't care so long as they get the money before they are rumbled.


The problem here is the 14 day timescale. This means it is 14 days before even PugglePay can realise there might be a problem in getting paid. Even then, their first response is to start adding fees and interest, not flag the customer as a non payer. It could take weeks for it to dawn on Puggle Pay that they have been "had". Given this timescale, the only way casinos can protect themselves is to hold withdrawals for weeks after the last Puggle Pay deposit. The majority of players who fully intend to pay up are not going to accept this, and casinos are going to be forced to compromise. Since they can't refund to Puggle Pay, they don't even have the protection of minimising risk by sending withdrawals back to the deposit method.

It will leave Puggle Pay and the casino to seek recovery of not only the deposits, but any withdrawals that got paid out on the strength of them. Without the law on their side, the most severe remedy would be to place the offender on a credit blacklist, and only the innocent would care about this. Those intending to use the method to scam casinos are not going to care that they can only do this once. What they will do is make their one shot at it as worthwhile as possible.

Those who scam credit card companies will even keep making the minimum payments until the card is maxed out, and only then will they slip away leaving the bank with a bad debt and them with the goods.

 

[Tirilej]

When i play with my credit card, I also receive an invoice and I also have to pay in time otherwise I have to pay fees. How is Faktura any different?

Maybe not so different except that this is to trick people in that maybe don't have finances enough to even get a creditcard in the first place. If they are then it's through the bank, and not some creditcompany.
Young people with no debts yet, no job, no income etc.

 

[Balthazar]

Maybe not so different except that this is to trick people in that maybe don't have finances enough to even get a creditcard in the first place. If they are then it's through the bank, and not some creditcompany.
Young people with no debts yet, no job, no income etc.

They say that they make a credit check every time that you ask for money. It really is no different than playing with a credit card.

 

[rainmaker]

When i play with my credit card, I also receive an invoice and I also have to pay in time otherwise I have to pay fees. How is Faktura any different?

Most casinos do accept credit cards as a payment alternative with whatever credit you may have on your card.

But here you have a casino (EU Casino) that is actively promoting a "play now - pay later" solution. This alone is very unacceptable.

Another thing is that it will depend on what deal EU Casino has with PugglePay. If PugglePay is giving credit on behalf of the casino (if the player does not pay, then the casino will not be paid etc), then it may be very problematic and can not be compared to a credit card where it is the bank who takes the risk.

But regardless of this, this way of promoting is disgraceful.

 

[Tirilej]

They say that they make a credit check every time that you ask for money. It really is no different than playing with a credit card.

If you don't have any money or income you can't get a credit card. If you lose your income you can lose your card. Here you can use credit anyway. A credit check here is mostly to see if your not on a blacklist, not if you can afford to pay back.

 

[vinylweatherman]

If you don't have any money or income you can't get a credit card. If you lose your income you can lose your card. Here you can use credit anyway. A credit check here is mostly to see if your not on a blacklist, not if you can afford to pay back.

This is the problem with a credit check. It only indicates how you have managed credit in the past, not how things might change if you are drawn into overspending on a new facility. Gambling is different. You don't purchase an item for a specific price, you start depositing to play, and the ultimate price you pay depends on your luck and willpower. If either desert you, it could lead you into unmanageable debt, and then having to decide who gets paid, and who doesn't. Many may decide that the least essential debt to pay is the gambling one. Puggle Pay could add interest and fees as much as they like, if the customer is in too deep to pay it back, they won't. Piling on the fees may even make it less likely that the customer will attempt to pay it back, and Puggle Pay will have bad debt on it's hands. The company looks worryingly small to have the backing to survive being hit by bad debt.

Credit cards do work on a similar principle, and the banks ARE having the write off large sums of bad debt run up on these cards because the cardholder overspends, and cannot make the repayments. The banks take the hit, but they are big institutions, and they cannot be allowed to fail, hence the bailout. Puggle Pay WILL be allowed to fail if they take too big a hit from bad debt, and this could have a knock on effect for any merchants using it to raise invoices.