Ecogra Endorses Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet

[pokeraddict]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

The CEREUS Poker Network, which includes UB and Absolute Poker, received an endorsement from one of the leading online gaming regulatory bodies Tuesday.

The e-Commerce Online Gaming Regulation and Assurance (eCOGRA) organization announced that CEREUS passed the requirements for its Certified Software accreditation seal.

Absolute Poker and UB Poker were both mired in cheating scandals that came to light in 2007 and 2008 and initially cost players millions of dollars. The money was eventually returned to the players after a series of investigations.

Doing everything possible to reassure the poker community that our operation and software are completely safe and secure is a priority for us, said Tokwiro CEO Paul Legget. This is why we decided to work with eCOGRA and apply for the Certified Software accreditation seal.

eCOGRA was established as a non-profit organization by Microgaming and 888.com and has since become one of the most respected regulatory bodies in the online gaming world, reviewing over 150 sites including industry leaders like PartyPoker and bwin.

According to eCOGRA representatives, the CEREUS Poker Network was very open in the rigorous inspection process.

CEREUS managements complete cooperation and commitment to an in-depth inspection and monitoring process involving the networks transaction records and its software has been remarkable, said eCOGRA chief executive Andrew Beveridge.

Going forward, we are confident that the networks adherence to our standards and best business practice requirements will prevent any reoccurrence of the unfortunate incidents of the past.

The on-site review encompassed every aspect of CEREUS software development activities was conducted earlier this year by professional eCOGRA auditing and technical staff.

 

[Simmo!]

A step in the right direction for AP and UB but one suspects they have a long way to go to regain the full trust of the community.

 

[same_old]

Sorry I just have to ask as a general quesiton.

what would eCORGA'S stance on knowing the past scandle with UB/AP with this be.

Are they happy to take them on board even due to the past shannigans that went on?

what lengths would they be able to go to to make sure this type of stuff wont happen, dont get me wrong at least eCORGA is on board as opposed to noone?

 

[bernynhel]

Sorry I just have to ask as a general quesiton.

what would eCORGA'S stance on knowing the past scandle with UB/AP with this be.

Are they happy to take them on board even due to the past shannigans that went on?

what lengths would they be able to go to to make sure this type of stuff wont happen, dont get me wrong at least eCORGA is on board as opposed to noone?

I don't know about "happy to take them on." "Stuck with them" since UB and AP satisfied the criteria for an endorsement is more like it.

And as far as I'm concerned, eCORGA's endorsement of UB and AP does more to discredit the validity of an eCORGA endorsement that it does to give any immediate legitimacy to anything UP or AP might be up to, these days. Only time will tell, but not with my dime! Hey! Get Mikey! He'll try anything!

 

[Simmo!]

This announcement will definitely divide opinion. We know that some people consider eCOGRA ineffective and some people consider it useful. We also know some people think the brands should be retired, while some people see the measures taken to remove the human element responsible for the problem as a solution to a repeat performance.

I'm pretty sure that if people are already opinionated on either body, eCOGRA or AP/UB, this move won't change anyone's opinion.

Bottom line for me is that if AP/UB are going to continue to operate, which they clearly are, it makes sense to have in place as many avenues for players to protect themselves as possible.

I think the word endorsement in this context is potentially ambiguous aswell. If we are to assume the author of the article takes certification to mean endorsement, we should also accept that it's certification of new management and operations after the initial issues have been rectified.

Strictly speaking, using the word "endorse" here is wrong (but AP/UB will be happy the author used it I'm sure): when you endorse a company you are saying that you not only agree with the way they act until this point, but beyond it, which is why you see so many people/companies refusing to endorse suppliers and products that they deal with. In eCOGRA's case, they are saying the changes made satisfy certification criteria and that they will monitor the company ongoing. That's not an endorsement, that's a commitment.

 

[Roanan]

Sorry I just have to ask as a general quesiton.

what would eCORGA'S stance on knowing the past scandle with UB/AP with this be.

Are they happy to take them on board even due to the past shannigans that went on?

what lengths would they be able to go to to make sure this type of stuff wont happen, dont get me wrong at least eCORGA is on board as opposed to noone?

New owners (Tokwilo Enterprises), new software and new management team.

I've stuck with them through thick and thin and will continue to do so.

I love Ultimate Bet

 

[bernynhel]

New owners (Tokwilo Enterprises), new software and new management team.

I've stuck with them through thick and thin and will continue to do so.

I love Ultimate Bet

I did not know that, thanks! Back in the day at AP before the transparant hands fiasco was exposed, I was playing a tournament when, in one hand, every other player's cards were displayed up! I couldn't believe it! I typed in the table chat for everyone to please protect their hands and they didn't know what I was talkin about. But even before that, I swore to everyone I could that AP was crooked just based on my play at the BJ Table.(remember the little off to the side BJ game? Am I remembering correctly: you could play it in a pop up during poker play?) Anyway everyone said I was nuts then it all went kaBLOOEY.

 

[LinkinFart]

I tried Absolute Poker recently, don`t ask me why, and 2 things made impression on me.

First, support on live chat is excellent, except one person, and is able to solve any issue immediately.
Second, once verified my account withdrawals to Moneybookers took around or less than 4 hours.

About ecogra certificate, well they didnt had one when I played there and everything was fine.

 

[skiny]

Personally I put a lot more stock in what real players say about a casino or poker room than I do in an eCrap seal anyway.

 

[lots0]

Could this possibly be more about MONEY than it already is? I doubt it.

I guess if the entire story on the cheating scandal had come out (it has not) and if the parties responsible for cheating had gone to jail or least been charged with a crime and if ALL the stolen money had been returned to players...

I could see ecogra giving these crooks a endorsement... but the fact is the people that stole all that money from players are still working there(running things) and the there has NEVER been any Justice for anyone involved.

To be honest... I think the people running ecogra have had a major BrainFart and can't seem to clear the air.

I guess I am amazed that ecogra continues to expect people to consider them a "Player Advocate" when they NEVER side with players and ALWAYS side with the MONEY.

 

[Simmo!]

LOL. Well I guess that ends that potential debate then

 

[The Dude]

...I guess I am amazed that ecogra continues to expect people to consider them a "Player Advocate" when they NEVER side with players and ALWAYS side with the MONEY...

And you base this on what evidence? That statement is beyond absurd. Have you ever looked at Tex Rees' stats for disputes?

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

LOL. Well I guess that ends that potential debate then

Ditto on that.

 

[lots0]

And you base this on what evidence? That statement is beyond absurd. Have you ever looked at Tex Rees' stats for disputes?

OK I'll admit that my statement was over the top and definitive when it should not have been.

Using the words "Never" and "Always" was out of line on my part. There have been occasions where ecogra has stood up for the player...

But, no matter how absurd you think my statement, you have to admit that in the case with Absolute Poker ecogra's decision leaves some folks scratching their heads... Why would ecogra endorse a company that still has known thieves or people who covered for thieves running it, if they are real player advocates?

As far as ecogra's own stats:
Do you really expect ecogra or any comparable organization to put out stats that don't show themselves in a good light?

Bryan, I know the people at ecogra are your good friends and this is your forum. So I'll shut up now before I get thumped.

 

[Simmo!]

would ecogra endorse a company that still has known thieves or people who covered for thieves running it, if they are real player advocates?

The author of the original article chose that word, presumably to emphasise AP/UB are moving in what he/she considers to be the right direction but eCOGRA are making a commitment, not making an endorsement.

Incidentally, I thought I read somewhere the original perpetrators of the crime were removed and the company sold into new ownership. Are you saying that's not the case lots0?

 

[vinylweatherman]

OK I'll admit that my statement was over the top and definitive when it should not have been.

Using the words "Never" and "Always" was out of line on my part. There have been occasions where ecogra has stood up for the player...

But, no matter how absurd you think my statement, you have to admit that in the case with Absolute Poker ecogra's decision leaves some folks scratching their heads... Why would ecogra endorse a company that still has known thieves or people who covered for thieves running it, if they are real player advocates?

As far as ecogra's own stats:
Do you really expect ecogra or any comparable organization to put out stats that don't show themselves in a good light?

Bryan, I know the people at ecogra are your good friends and this is your forum. So I'll shut up now before I get thumped.

It's around 50% of the time that eCogra finds some degree of legitimacy in a player's complaint. The player may NOT get everything they asked for in a resolution though.

By giving the seal to AP and UB, eCogra are putting THEIR OWN reputation on the line. If AP or UB screw up whilst having the seals eCogra's reputation will be in ruins. eCogra therefore must be confident that there CANNOT be a repeat of what happened before under the new systems and management.

AP and UB had no choice BUT to mend their ways, and achieve the eCogra seal, as it was a case of "get independently accredited" or "go out of business".

For players, playing at a sealholder means that they are subject to ongoing review, whereas a non-sealholder may be subject to NOTHING in the way of a review.

Now they HAVE the seal, they can LOSE it, and this should happen BEFORE the "s*** hit the fan", giving players the chance to get their money out.

TUSK poker (and the casinos) lost their seals some 2 weeks before they went bust, players could have ignored all the assurances from the company, and got their money out fast, and NOT put any back UNTIL the seal was restored. I believed the assurances, and ALMOST got my fingers burned in the casino to the tune of 2200, but I was lucky, got it all out Mon and Tues, and when I went to deposit again, MGS had already pulled the licence, and I couldn't. Next time eCogra remove seals, I will be less likely to believe platitudes from the casino.

 

[The Dude]

...Why would ecogra endorse a company that still has known thieves or people who covered for thieves running it, if they are real player advocates?

Again - this is based on what evidence? I - along with a number of others - thought that there were changes made and those guilty parties were either fired, punished, or both. If there is evidence that points to thieves still running the joint, then this should be substantiated. And I'll be happy to update AP's rogue listing to reflect this.

Do you really expect ecogra or any comparable organization to put out stats that don't show themselves in a good light?

Well actually, I would expect an organization that is dealing with industry checks and balances to be upfront and honest with its stats. Please note that handling complaints is not the primary function of eCOGRA, and they aren't whitewashing these stats either. It's pretty straightforward.

It's hard to compare this to other organizations, but for what it's worth, 32red published a not so happy clappy report about its earnings a couple of months back. A number of the publicly traded companies have been upfront with bad news as well, so yeah - I would expect that companies with high profiles to give us honest reports without the hype.

Bryan, I know the people at ecogra are your good friends and this is your forum. So I'll shut up now before I get thumped.

I think this paints an incorrect picture. The relationship is business, and we share basically the same philosophies on player treatment and responsible gambling. There is a good amount of communication between us that has been beneficial to a lot of people - especially when it comes to looking at player issues or casino policies. We meet up occasionally at conferences and share ideas, and that's about it - it's not like we're naming our children after each other

You know me - I only "thump" people when they pull stuff out of their fourth point of contact and say it's true

 

[lots0]

Again - this is based on what evidence? I - along with a number of others - thought that there were changes made and those guilty parties were either fired, punished, or both. If there is evidence that points to thieves still running the joint, then this should be substantiated. And I'll be happy to update AP's rogue listing to reflect this.

Now you see I was under the impression that just the opposite was going on.

As far as I know there has never(I know I am using that word again, but this time its appropriate.) been a complete accounting of what happened released to the public.

There has never been a completely independent report released to the public, nor has there ever been any type of unregulated or government/law enforcement investigation allowed nor legal charges or lawsuits filed.

There have been numerous conflicting statements of what happened released from the Owners.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

But never an independent investigation that has made its results public.

The big question is... What ever happened to and where is Scott Tom, EX-CEO of AP and alleged perpetrator of this major rip off?
Last report I saw, a few months ago, he was seen in AP's offices in Costa Rica sitting at his desk, with a new title...

This entire Absolute Poker scandal still stinks to high heaven...

 

[johnsteed]

***



Considering that EVERYONE is keeping an eye on AP/UB, and that CEREUS Poker didn't do a face lift by changing and repackaging the brand names (and they easily could have like some of those rogue RTG and PlayTech casinos have done in the past), one would have to think that the new management team is serious about not letting this sort of thing happen again. They're in knee deep with those who question their legitimacy, very rightfully so, but as someone who's watched the way that they've gone about trying to fix their mistakes/reputation, I appreciate that - for the most part - they've taken it on the chin.



I know some other serious poker players who get paid, feel that it's fair, and are more than happy going there because the field there is EXTREMELY weak; compared to PokerStars and FullTilt.



I would agree with the other poster, that it's not so much about who's the regulatory body watching over any particular site that helps me decide where to play, rather it's about player feedback/experience first and foremost.



Steed

***

 

[jetset]

The author of the original article chose that word, presumably to emphasise AP/UB are moving in what he/she considers to be the right direction but eCOGRA are making a commitment, not making an endorsement.

Incidentally, I thought I read somewhere the original perpetrators of the crime were removed and the company sold into new ownership. Are you saying that's not the case lots0?

I think Simmo makes a good point here - my understanding of the matter is that the management at UB/AB/Cereus, having shelled out literally millions in compensation and fines for the evils of the past, have for the past year or more been involved in an attempt to protect their probably substantial investment by taking precautions against the same thing ever happening again.

This has involved going to extraordinary lengths to make sure their software and management systems are squeaky clean in order to protect existing and future business. My personal belief is that the creation of the Cereus brand was part of that strategy, but that's not confirmed.

This is an understandable business initiative to try and repair the damage caused by the likes of Russ Hamilton et al who (allegedly) were consultants who manipulated imperfections in the software which have since been rectified.

Another part of the rehabilitation strategy, judging by the press release from Tokwiro which started this thread, is bringing in an independent professional services outfit to inspect and monitor going forward.

Whether you personally accept it as credible or not, the fact is that as an independent organisation eCOGRA has a powerful and professionally qualified audit team and a proven system for checking software and management systems.

It's a pretty rare combination which most jurisdictions cannot claim to have on the same cross-jurisdictional scale, and it has the respect of major outfits like EGBA and many of the major industry groups that are not associated with eCOGRA founders MGS/Ongame/888.

That makes it a suitable business choice for an organisation that is prepared to open up its systems and software to on-site inspection, and to subsequently adhere to a set of international best practice standards reviewed on a regular basis.

It's a matter of opinion as to whether a disgraced company should be permitted to rehabilitate itself, which is what I think Tokwiro is trying to do here.

I appreciate that emotionally one's inclination is to say the hell with 'em, and run them out of town on a rail, but business has to think rather more objectively when it comes to a profitable company in which a lot of cash has been invested.

I don't personally believe this is designed to further screw players or delude them - it's a plainly business strategy to restore confidence and obviate any reoccurrence of a horrendously expensive company debacle.

 

[jetset]

Lots0, the question of impartiality often resides in the opinion of a person.

As one of the stronger and sustained critics of AB/UB and the way it initially handled this scandal through denial, then argument and finally acceptance (thanks to those incredible player-detectives on sites like 2plus2) I think I can present a reasonably informed opinion.

This is again dependent on your view, but the KGC (eventually) got its collective ass into gear under public pressure and appointed first Gaming Associates and then Frank Catania to conduct an investigation. Again, you may have an opinion about Catania's consultancy associations with the Kahnawake, but he was appointed anyway and his legal and enforcement credentials cannot (imo) be questioned.

Catania submitted a report, much of which was made public by the KGC when they hammered Tokwiro with some heavy duty fines and laid down conditions for its licence which included reimbursing players - those were millions of dollars more than the fines it had to pay. It had to do other stuff to show it had mended its ways, too like sorting out its software and submitting to a KGC review schedule.

The (unconfirmed) argument for not publicly implicating Scott Tom, AJ Green and others alleged on the message boards to be involved was that they had cooperated in the investigations, which in the end fingered Russ Hamilton as the main culprit, publicly naming and shaming him....but that's all.

This is a point on which I, like many others, remain dissatisfied, because although the KGC said it had handed all its information to the local Quebec cops there appeared to be no charges laid or prosecutions ensuing. So after taking millions, Hamilton remains a free man. I think that offends most everyone's sense of justice denied.

Unfortunately we may never know exactly what went on behind the scenes during these crises, and that may be another motivation for not dragging these wretches into a court of law. But that doesn't change the need for the current owners of the company to clean up their act and ensure it stays that way in the future.

 

[maxd]

Bryan, I know the people at ecogra are your good friends and this is your forum. So I'll shut up now before I get thumped.

Well, I'll do this because no one else has:

@lots0: The implication of your statement is that there is something less than honest about our handling of eCOGRA, presumably because we are 'friends'. You further imply that you'll get 'thumped' for treading on eCOGRA's toes because of that special 'friend' relationship. Total rubbish on both counts, but it's very easy to make innuendos and hint at secret collusion isn't it? I challenge you to produce any evidence whatsoever for your nasty little accusations.

And for what it's worth, if you do get 'thumped' it will be for posting unfounded crap like this, not because Bryan has coffee with the eCOGRA peeps once or twice a year.

 

[lots0]

Well, I'll do this because no one else has:

@lots0: The implication of your statement is that there is something less than honest about our handling of eCOGRA, presumably because we are 'friends'. You further imply that you'll get 'thumped' for treading on eCOGRA's toes because of that special 'friend' relationship. Total rubbish on both counts, but it's very easy to make innuendos and hint at secret collusion isn't it? I challenge you to produce any evidence whatsoever for your nasty little accusations.

And for what it's worth, if you do get 'thumped' it will be for posting unfounded crap like this, not because Bryan has coffee with the eCOGRA peeps once or twice a year.

Your way out of line max...

There was a legitimate question there, no matter if you like the question or not. Bryan let everyone know what he considers his relationship with ecogra to be in his last post. I have no reason not to believe him. But I do think that your down playing the relationship a bit much... Wasn't it Tex that helped to get Bryan started in this business?

As far as the getting "thumped" statement, I was referring the the last time I got a "time out" here(thumped) it was because of my opinion/statements on ecogra.

Now max would you mind if we get back to the subject?


********
Two things I would like to address.

1. The idea that Fines and penalties were paid by Absolute Poker for getting caught cheating.

First.. Who leveled the fines in the first place? Wasn't it Joe Tokwiro Norton Chief of the Kahnawke Tribe(at the time)?
Who paid the fines... wasn't it Joe Tokwiro Norton, the owner of Absolute Poker?

So Joe Tokwiro Norton, sole owner of Tokwiro Enterprises and Chief of the Kahnawke Indian Tribe, actually fined himself and then paid the fines to himself by moving the money from one pocket to another...

He must have really learned his lesson...

2. I keep hearing this idea that because Absolute Poker is now being 'watched' they would not dare to cheat... Hogwash.

If that logic were correct then there never would have been a cheating scandal at Ultimate Bet, right after the same people got caught cheating at Absolute Poker.

After all they are both owned and ran by the same people. Weren't they being closely watched right after they were caught cheating at Absolute Poker??? Yet they still went ahead and stole millions at Ultimate Bet...

We are talking about the same people who would not cheat because they are being so closely watched now... Hogwash. These people are daring someone to catch them...

***

What I say here, is not going to make any difference to ecogra, they have already made their decision to support these thieves and others have decided to back them...
But I just wanted this on the record, so it didn't look like the entire industry is going along with this and even though some time has passed... some of us have not forgotten what really took place and that justice has NEVER been served up to the players, the public or the cheaters.

And to be honest there are only two reasons I can think of why ecogra would get involved with Absolute Poker at all...
1. A major BrainFart in ecogras management and now they can't think straight.
2. A lot of money.

 

[maxd]

There was a legitimate question there, no matter if you like the question or not.

Rubbish, in the context of my point regarding the tone of your post I could care less about the question. What I do care about is us and the site being slagged with your unfounded accusations and innuendo. I should think my post makes that very clear. Please don't deflect this off into your "Casinomeister kiss kiss eCOGRA" theory.

Wasn't it Tex that helped to get Bryan started in this business?

Casinomeister pre-dates eCOGRA by several years. Again you are misinformed and are drawing unfounded conclusions.

I was referring the the last time I got a "time out" here(thumped) it was because of my opinion/statements on ecogra.

I suggest you go back and look at the record. I highly doubt the last action against you was for any such reasons because that's not the why or the way we do things here. I suspect you saw the same "plot" there as you see here. At the risk of belaboring the point ... wrong then, wrong now.

Now max would you mind if we get back to the subject?

Watch it. I made it very clear what my point was and why I was bringing it up. Treating it dismissively is not recommended.

 

[lots0]

Your not going to bully me max.

You can kick me out of here... but I am not going to let you bully me.

I am dismissive of your 'charges' because they are bogus and seem to me to be designed to side rail and end this conversation about ecogra and absolute poker.... and your comments do seem to be doing a great job of side railing the discussion.

Casinomeister pre-dates eCOGRA by several years. Again you are misinformed and are drawing unfounded conclusions.

So Tex didn't exist before ecogra? Your saying that Bryan did not know Tex before ecogra and had no contact with her at all before ecogra???? I think your the one that needs to get your facts straight.

 

[Simmo!]

Honestly lots0. You came on the thread and intimated that Bryan and eCOGRA were friends and that was the reason for Bryan's comments. You can't expect everyone connected here to go "oh yeah, of course".

We're moderators here because we agree with Bryan's stance on things, convinced he works ethically and want to help so I think Max has every right to stand up to those comments.

On topic: are we 100% sure that the original perpetrators/beneficiaries of the crime are still involved in the operation? That seems to me to be the main issue here and I've heard conflicting reports. Does anyone have conclusive proof one way of the other? Speaking personally that's a key factor for me: if they are, then I'd question whether the eCOGRA involvement is the right course of action. If they aren't, then it makes sense.

 

[maxd]

Thanks Simmo, but to minimize the derail I am withdrawing from this thread.

 

[lots0]

Honestly lots0. You came on the thread and intimated that Bryan and eCOGRA were friends and that was the reason for Bryan's comments. You can't expect everyone connected here to go "oh yeah, of course".

OK, I did say that Tex and Bryan were "good friends", my bad. I should have left off the 'good' part. I was trying to make the point that the relationship between the two people was more than just ecogra/casinomeister. If Bryan says the relationship is just business, I stand corrected.

back on topic...

are we 100% sure that the original perpetrators/beneficiaries of the crime are still involved in the operation? That seems to me to be the main issue here and I've heard conflicting reports. Does anyone have conclusive proof one way of the other? Speaking personally that's a key factor for me: if they are, then I'd question whether the eCOGRA involvement is the right course of action. If they aren't, then it makes sense.

Not a 100%. I have unsubstantiated reports about Scott Tom working in Ap's Costa Rica offices, they may be unsubstantiated but I personally trust the source.

Besides... who owns Absolute Poker... Isn't it still Joe Norton with a new company?

 

[Simmo!]

Not a 100%. I have unsubstantiated reports about Scott Tom working in Ap's Costa Rica offices, they may be unsubstantiated but I personally trust the source.

Besides... who owns Absolute Poker... Isn't it still Joe Norton with a new company?

Pass. I guess until those points are established it's hard to make a decision on the rights and wrongs of this PR.

 

[lots0]

Pass.

From where I stand, ecogra should be demanding that AP come clean and allow an independent investigation to take place and the results be published.

But what I see is ecogra...actually promoting Absolute Poker, by becoming involved and allowing AP to publicize their connection to ecogra, while helping the guilty to get away with theft by ignoring past events.

If ecogra demanded AP come clean, we would know for sure if those involved are still there... but that won't happen now will it?

 

[The Dude]

Your saying that Bryan did not know Tex before ecogra and had no contact with her at all before ecogra???? I think your the one that needs to get your facts straight.

Eh? Where in the heck did this come from?

If you want to know how Casinomeister got started, please refer to the FAQ:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/forum-rules/

Casinomeister was established in June 1998 and predates most everything that is related to this business - to include eCOGRA.

One of portals that started around the same time was Gambling.com. Gambling.com had employed Julie Sidwell who handled Gambling Grumbles - a place where players could complain. GG was really the only place that dealt with player complaints, but at Casinomeister - we had a message board. People naturally complained a lot, and in order to get this organized, I came up with the Pitch a Bitch section in July 2001. Before then I would merely forward the complaint and hope for some action. I was contacting casinos in 1998.

In April 2003, eCOGRA was launched. Julie left Gambling.com in July of that year and was hired as eCOGRA's Fair Gaming Advocate. Sadly, she passed away suddenly in December that year - she was a good friend. And it wasn't until April 2004 that Tex Rees was hired as the FGA. I didn't meet Tex until months later.

So Casinomeister was established nearly five years before eCOGRA and almost six years before Tex was on the scene. Max had this right since he probably has some of the same early memories. Max worked for Winneronline - another portal that I was friends with. These were the early days.

All of this, by the way, is documented in our news section. You just have to dig
https://www.casinomeister.com/gambling-news/

Now back to our regular programing...PLEASE don't make me have to split this thread - pretty please...
[/derail]

 

[dominique]

I remember all that too. Gambling Grumbles...Julie.... hadn't thought of this in years.

 

[The Dude]

From where I stand, ecogra should be demanding that AP come clean and allow an independent investigation to take place and the results be published.

But what I see is ecogra...actually promoting Absolute Poker, by becoming involved and allowing AP to publicize their connection to ecogra, while helping the guilty to get away with theft by ignoring past events.

If ecogra demanded AP come clean, we would know for sure if those involved are still there... but that won't happen now will it?

Try not to be so negative! - it's not good for your health.

Onward - it's tough when one tries to do good for what one thinks is good for the player. What do we want? A safe environment for joe player? Do we want lists of warnings and punishments? Do we want to give companies second chances or room to improve? It's tough.

I can relate back a few years ago when I agreed with Virtual Casino to accept and try to resolve complaints that came via them. I had them place a link on their sites for the complaint form, and it seemed like a good thing because I was really trying to help these folks get it together, and of course giving the players assistance when or if they needed it.

Hell, I was crucified by quite a number of people, some of whom are members here, and it was frustrating to say the least. I had done nearly the same thing for Warren Cloud and his Crystal Palace group - trying to give someone a chance and hoping for a safer playing field. Again - I was personally lambasted by quite a few players - they didn't understnad what I was trying to do.

But my situation was much simpler - it was me going at this alone. Here we have eCOGRA which answers to a board of directors and who may or may not understand or see the same thing that you or I do. Their decision making processes are a bit more complicated even though we have basically the same long term goal.

I believe they are trying to do the right thing - they are scrutinizing a poker room that had been embraced with scandal. This should be a good thing if you can look beyond the "endorsement" debate.

 

[jetset]

Tokwiro Enterprises was founded by Joe Tokwiro Norton, an ex Grand Chief of the Kahnawake, in 2006 and in October purchased Absolute Poker and UltimateBet from Canadian company Excapsa Software.

Prior to that Norton had been Grand Chief until his retirement in 2004, after which he ran Mohawk Internet Technologies for the two years leading up to his Tokwiro Enterprises venture.

AFAIK, Tokwiro's ownership of AB/UB and more recently Cereus has not changed.

The final report from the Kahnawake Gaming Commission unequivocally named Russ Hamilton for cheating which it claimed took place between 2004 and early 2008.

Earlier, the company had claimed that the cheating had been perpetrated by former employees of the previous owner (Excapsa) who exploited a software flaw. These individuals were not named but apparently acted as consultants to Tokwiro following the acquisition of the poker rooms.

Not sure who the KGC board was in 2008 when the fines and player compensation rulings were made (I'm following up on that at present) but the Commission is currently comprised: Dean Montour (Chairperson), Melanie Mayo, and Lori Jacobs.

The full, and final report of the KGC on this can be read here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

and Catania's appointment here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Other communications by the Commission can be viewed here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

BTW the allegation earlier that Tex Rees helped set Bryan and Casinomeister up would be laughable were it not so outrageously wrong and perhaps even malicious - where the hell did that come from, Lots0? I've known Bryan since the early days of Casinomeister and I can vouch for the fact that Tex Rees was not known or around at that time.

 

[jetset]

Try not to be so negative! - it's not good for your health.

Onward - it's tough when one tries to do good for what one thinks is good for the player. What do we want? A safe environment for joe player? Do we want lists of warnings and punishments? Do we want to give companies second chances or room to improve? It's tough.

I can relate back a few years ago when I agreed with Virtual Casino to accept and try to resolve complaints that came via them. I had them place a link on their sites for the complaint form, and it seemed like a good thing because I was really trying to help these folks get it together, and of course giving the players assistance when or if they needed it.

Hell, I was crucified by quite a number of people, some of whom are members here, and it was frustrating to say the least. I had done nearly the same thing for Warren Cloud and his Crystal Palace group - trying to give someone a chance and hoping for a safer playing field. Again - I was personally lambasted by quite a few players - they didn't understnad what I was trying to do.

But my situation was much simpler - it was me going at this alone. Here we have eCOGRA which answers to a board of directors and who may or may not understand or see the same thing that you or I do. Their decision making processes are a bit more complicated even though we have basically the same long term goal.

I believe they are trying to do the right thing - they are scrutinizing a poker room that had been embraced with scandal. This should be a good thing if you can look beyond the "endorsement" debate.

Well said - one of the problems encountered by many trying to make a positive difference in the industry is the negative and cynical reception that is so frequently encountered - and unsubstantiated and unsourced whispers and rumours.

That said, rational scepticism is to be expected, given the many and disillusioning scams that have been perpetrated in the past.

But please bear in mind - not everything or everyone is for sale, and there are some genuine folks and outfits trying to better the business.

 

[lots0]

Wow I thought this was supposed to be a player advocate forum... not a justification of scumbaggery forum.

This forums history of constant support for ecogra no matter what ecogra does makes me sick and I can't deal with it anymore.

I'm taking my nasty ass out of here... for good.
That should make a few people happy.

 

[jetset]

I think you should reconsider your decision, Lots0 - when you're not freaking or dishing out suspect info you make some very valued contributions a.f.a.i.c. :notworthy

C'mon, man - this exit is absolutely (no pun intended ) unnecessary in a debate like this in which there are different opinions to your own.

 

[The Dude]

Wow I thought this was supposed to be a player advocate forum... not a justification of scumbaggery forum.

This forums history of constant support for ecogra no matter what ecogra does makes me sick and I can't deal with it anymore.

I'm taking my nasty ass out of here... for good.
That should make a few people happy.

Eh? Are you unable to debate anything without getting upset? This is the umpteenth time you've quit the forum because you don't like what other people say. They have just as much as a right as you do to express their opinions. And opinions should be expressed with a certain amount of objectivity - something that you seem challenged with.

You've already made a couple of glaring misguided/unsupported comments about me and Casinomeister. I gave a rundown on what came first this place or eCOGRA - and this upsets you? C'mon, get a freakin' grip.

We're having a discussion here. We're talking about AP and the eCOGRA involvement - which has nothing to do with Casinomeister by the way. Last time I checked, AP was still in the rogue pit.

 

[jetset]

Your way out of line max...

There was a legitimate question there, no matter if you like the question or not. Bryan let everyone know what he considers his relationship with ecogra to be in his last post. I have no reason not to believe him. But I do think that your down playing the relationship a bit much... Wasn't it Tex that helped to get Bryan started in this business?

As far as the getting "thumped" statement, I was referring the the last time I got a "time out" here(thumped) it was because of my opinion/statements on ecogra.

Now max would you mind if we get back to the subject?


********
Two things I would like to address.

1. The idea that Fines and penalties were paid by Absolute Poker for getting caught cheating.

First.. Who leveled the fines in the first place? Wasn't it Joe Tokwiro Norton Chief of the Kahnawke Tribe(at the time)?
Who paid the fines... wasn't it Joe Tokwiro Norton, the owner of Absolute Poker?

So Joe Tokwiro Norton, sole owner of Tokwiro Enterprises and Chief of the Kahnawke Indian Tribe, actually fined himself and then paid the fines to himself by moving the money from one pocket to another...

He must have really learned his lesson...

2. I keep hearing this idea that because Absolute Poker is now being 'watched' they would not dare to cheat... Hogwash.

If that logic were correct then there never would have been a cheating scandal at Ultimate Bet, right after the same people got caught cheating at Absolute Poker.

After all they are both owned and ran by the same people. Weren't they being closely watched right after they were caught cheating at Absolute Poker??? Yet they still went ahead and stole millions at Ultimate Bet...

We are talking about the same people who would not cheat because they are being so closely watched now... Hogwash. These people are daring someone to catch them...

***

What I say here, is not going to make any difference to ecogra, they have already made their decision to support these thieves and others have decided to back them...
But I just wanted this on the record, so it didn't look like the entire industry is going along with this and even though some time has passed... some of us have not forgotten what really took place and that justice has NEVER been served up to the players, the public or the cheaters.

And to be honest there are only two reasons I can think of why ecogra would get involved with Absolute Poker at all...
1. A major BrainFart in ecogras management and now they can't think straight.
2. A lot of money.

Just to go back to this for a moment and address Lotso0's allegation that the owner of Tokwiro was on the KGC and that the fines levied were therefore "moving the money from one pocket to the other' as he put it.

This is a serious accusation, and I therefore checked it out with Murray Marshall at the KGC.

Here's his response:
QUOTE

1. That is correct. [this was confirming my understanding of the composition of the KGC board as posted elsewhere in this thread].

2. Joseph Tokwiro Norton has NEVER been a member of the Commission. At the time the fines were imposed, Norton had been retired from his former position of Grand Chief of the Mohawk Council of Kahnawake for at least 4 years.

UNQUOTE

 

[Roanan]

As always I was needing a few days to gather my thoughts to express in this thread, so here goes..


I have always played at UltimateBet.

I joined them long before any other site that is still around today.
Prior to that I played at Jet Set and Planet Poker (the very first online card room)
Subsequently I have joined most poker sites since then and they've all had their good and bad points.

Any time I have had an issue with UB. Whether it be abusive chat, potential collusion or chip dumping, multiple accounts, deposit/withdrawal issues, etc. I have always been 100% satisfied with both the results and the time frames involved.


I even remember a time where a personal financial issue had caused me to turn to UB to make an emergency withdrawal of funds that I had in my account.

Not only did they happily assist me with finding a solution, then even took a step beyond what was expected and wired the withdrawal via Western Union THREE HOURS after my initial contact with them. This was at a time when WU was not an available option and the other methods all had a minimum of 2-5 day waiting periods indicated.
AND THEY DIDN'T EVEN CHARGE ME A FEE


The cheating scandal that they have been embroiled in has been completely oversensationalized by the parasitic US media.

Had the site not allowed US players and the principle behind the scam not been a former WSOP Main Event Champion (1994)(

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

) this would never have been the story that it was.

The incident happened, everyone knows the details of it now, but the one thing that no one will mention is that the site is known to have very little cheating going on at all.

The game play is one of the fairest anywhere.

The fact of the matter is PartyPoker has had more cheating scandals than every other poker room combined, but because US players aren't permitted, the US media has no reason to care


11-time WSOP bracelet winner and Main Event Champion (1989)

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

has been associated with Ultimate Bet since the beginning.

Do you really think 'the best no limit hold 'em player in the world' would be associated with an unscrupulous site?

Not a chance. He would have jumped ship to Full Tilt long ago if that was the case.


So I ask all of you to take the eCogra announcement for what it's worth.
The site has been accredited for a reason.


PLEASE GIVE THEM A(NOTHER) CHANCE and come join

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

for a game of cards.

 

[johnsteed]

***




I agree with everything that you said - and very much so - except this part...

So I ask all of you to take the eCogra announcement for what it's worth.
The site has been accredited for a reason.

Absolute Poker - if that is the site you're referring to and not eCogra - is not accredited at this site. As it states in the Rogue Pit "Unknown - Kahnawake - Cheating - poker room".



Great post, and I'd like to add that Joe Sebok recently signed-on there as well (with UB), despite taking some heat from the poker community.



On another note, any chance that "PokerStars.com" will be accredited here?




Steed


***

 

[Roanan]

Absolute Poker - if that is the site you're referring to and not eCogra - is not accredited at this site. As it states in the Rogue Pit "Unknown - Kahnawake - Cheating - poker room".

My post was specifically referring to Ultimate Bet, but as Ultimate Bet and Absolute Poker have merged, there no longer is any difference between the two (other than some games are site specific, as are some pros)

In addition I don't believe being in the 'rogue pit' was ever warranted.
As I mentioned in my post above, this story was completely oversensationalized by the American media, and the amount of cheating that may occur on the site is minute compared to when goes on at all of the other major sites.

Since the scandal, security is a high priority with Ultimate Bet and Absolute Poker and you are safe playing there.

Anything hinky that may be going on will be small potatoes (chip dumping, collusion, etc.) and most smart players catch on quick. With instant access available to support via telephone, live chat or even using the built in 'report chat' option will bring these kinds of matters to their attention immediately.

In addition, this site also has the unique distinction of having a direct number for their security departments as well as accounting departments.
This means you simply have to ask and they will let you speak to whomever you need to rectify any issues immediately.


For this reason, as well as all the reasons I mentioned in my previous post, I beg Casinomeister to pull them out of 'The Pit'
I give my word that they are not deserving of their current dishonour.

I also pledge myself to be of assistance if you ever have any issues that you feel are not being resolved properly or in a timely manner.
(I am not their representative, other than being a minor affiliate, but I do have an excellent relationship with them. Plus Max has a big enough workload as it is )

 

[GrandMaster]

Do you really think 'the best no limit hold 'em player in the world' would be associated with an unscrupulous site?

Do you think the world's richest sportsman would risk his marriage, his clean reputation and future career by having affairs with porn actresses?

 

[dominique]

Do you think the world's richest sportsman would risk his marriage, his clean reputation and future career by having affairs with porn actresses?

Lol, not a good analogy, lololol!

 

[Roanan]

Do you think the world's richest sportsman would risk his marriage, his clean reputation and future career by having affairs with porn actresses?

Good thing the 'reputation' feature has an 'I disapprove' option to deduct reputation points when someone makes an ignorant insulting comment.

 

[bryand]

I recently took a 100% instant deposit bonus at AP and played a few MTT's ranging from $1 to $10 entry. Compared to PokerStars and FullTilt, AP seems to have a lot of young players (i.e under 18) and pokerbots. In fact I sent information to AP support regarding 2 suspect players but never heard back from them.

Regardless of anything that may have occured in the past, I felt like I was playing with mostly thugs and con artists - certainly not 'gentlemen'.

 

[GrandMaster]

Good thing the 'reputation' feature has an 'I disapprove' option to deduct reputation points when someone makes an ignorant insulting comment.

A negative reputation from you is really going to hurt me.

 

[Roanan]

A negative reputation from you is really going to hurt me.

Maybe, but you are free to violate Rule 1.1 as often as possible, so when you get properly punished, don't whine like a baby.

I recently took a 100% instant deposit bonus at AP and played a few MTT's ranging from $1 to $10 entry. Compared to PokerStars and FullTilt, AP seems to have a lot of young players (i.e under 18) and pokerbots. In fact I sent information to AP support regarding 2 suspect players but never heard back from them.

Regardless of anything that may have occured in the past, I felt like I was playing with mostly thugs and con artists - certainly not 'gentlemen'.

Really? ....so I assume that the players at PokerStars or FullTilt give you a warm fuzzy welcome when you sit at a table there?

Every site has moronic immature players. The main difference is that Ultimate Bet and Absolute poker have instant contact methods for dealing with this.

Try getting a fast, reasonable response from FT or Stars for ANY issue.

 

[Roanan]

Really? ....so I assume that the players at PokerStars or FullTilt give you a warm fuzzy welcome when you sit at a table there?

Currently I am sitting at a tournament table on FullTilt, (almost ITM) with at least FOUR members from the same RUSSIAN CHEATING TEAM. (I may actually have 7 of them, but 3 aren't chatting)
Talk about a boring game now because not one of them will play against the other.
At least I have the Google Translator open so I can read what they are saying to each other.

FullTilt and PokerStars are well known for having teams, but they will never do anything about it (especially PokerStars) because some of these teams generate a LOT of rake. Especially the Intellipoker group on Stars.

So by the standards raised in this and other related threads, all poker sites should be considered rogue.


Addendum: Turns out that FIVE were definitely part of the same team, plus two cheerleaders came along.
Almost 1 1/2 hours sitting at the table with them, and AT NO TIME WHATSOEVER were two of them in the hand at showdown, until we made the money.

 

[bryand]

If you cannot win, try the website

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

easy navigate and you can win some money
Try it m8

You won't stay a member here long doing that!