pokeraddict

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I know there are not many poker players here but I wanted to warn people here about this...

Obsessed with running off winning poker players, Bodog has now made it so that players no longer see the usernames of the other players at their cash games and tournaments. Players lost all of their notes, can no longer take notes, and Bodog removed the points for cash promotion without notice. Players are also complaining about dozens of bugs in the new update that make the new software unplayable.

For those of you that are not poker players, tracking software has caught hundreds if not thousands of cheats over the years. The most famous ones are the Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet insider cheating scandals. Without players catching them, they may have never been caught. Players have caught many bots and colluders this way. The poker forums are just about 100% against what Bodog did. Bodog is a ghost town tonight and according to PokerScout they are down over 80% in terms of traffic although Bodog blocked their ability to get exact counts a month or so ago because they thought traffic counts was somehow helping sharks. I guess Bodog does not care about what their players think or how players perceive the safety of their poker room now that they cannot be audited by a 3rd party. This calls into question the security of the entire poker network.

Maybe they think casual players will not care but they took the social aspect away from them which is among the important features in an online poker room. Casual players lost their virtual friends forever since they cannot be located anymore at the virtual tables. This whole thing just boggle the mind.
 
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Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
Even if they switch back to having names, will players return? And turning off notes? Are a pen a pad beside your computer going to be considered cheating?

That's one of the most bone-headed moves I've heard of.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
Thanks for that useful and interesting perspective, pokeraddict - you have to wonder what Bodog Poker management's objectives are.

Software uodates are supposed to improve aspects of a room, but that does not appear to have been the result here, and it will be interesting to see how Bodog responds to the players' criticisms of their latest moves.

The dip in traffic should send them a message - last week they were doing quite well, according to the Pokerscout numbers, so the decline you mention will certainly be noticeable.
 

bpb

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While I recognize that many cheaters are caught by the players rather than the sites themselves, I also don't for a moment believe that game integrity is at the forefront of the minds of those vehemently opposing these changes.

They are complaining because these games are now going to be less profitable for the regs, who will no longer have HUD stats and be able to datamine. Games just got better for the casual player and fish.

Note that the changes have no impact on the sites ability to detect cheating and collusion. I don't know if Bodog is competent at catching cheaters. I do know that there have been 0 cases of cheating at Bodog caught by the players. This doesn't mean that there isn't cheating. This doesn't mean that the software changes will prevent players from catching cheating that would have been otherwise caught on non-anonymous tables.

But regs are pissed because they aren't going to make as much money. Period.
 

pokeraddict

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While I recognize that many cheaters are caught by the players rather than the sites themselves, I also don't for a moment believe that game integrity is at the forefront of the minds of those vehemently opposing these changes.

I do not use a HUD or PT. The integrity of the games is the main concern here. The other concern is that this is not poker. Poker is a game of skill with tells and learning your opponents which is a different argument.

My point was really just to warn people what they were getting into if they deposited into Bodog. As Bodog is seeing right now, their site is empty tonight. Maybe that was their goal, if it was they should have just closed. The lack of testing on this software is pretty bad too. It took me three computers to even download it and have it launch. If you read the 2+2 threads you will see dozens that had the same problem. It is hard to imagine why downloading and installing the software was not done on hundreds of different machines first. That is just one of the dozens of bugs.

The software went years backwards, even if you ignore the anonymous tables. It is like they were intent on being in the headlines ASAP but did not test anything. Now the site is unplayable, even if you are not concerned about the potential security issues, due to all of the bugs.
 

pokeraddict

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Location
Las Vegas
I do know that there have been 0 cases of cheating at Bodog caught by the players.

BTW, I am curious how you know this. Do you work for Bodog? You know for a fact that no player has ever emailed Bodog about suspicious play and been right? I would be shocked if that was true.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
A lot of the coverage from Bodog on these changes emphasises that the goal is to make the site more recreational player-friendly, I see.

If the players are not flocking to the new offering could that be an indication of a preponderance of good players who are now staying away, or is it a case of time for the word to get out to recreational players that the new software gives them a better chance?

All of that to one side, pokeraddict (whom time has shown to be very knowledgeable in this area) points to several other deficiencies that Bodog will have o address.
 

pokeraddict

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Location
Las Vegas
I realize people from outside the US may not know what Netflix is but that is what is being used to describe this situation by many US players. Netflix is a streaming and DVD company that ignored what their customers wanted and decided to try to tell their customers what they wanted by changing their business model. Their stock price lost $200/share in a couple of months and they had a mass exodus of customers. I realize now that I should have titled the post differently since so many will not be familiar with that situation. Mods feel free to change the title.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
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Location
United Kingdom
A lot of the coverage from Bodog on these changes emphasises that the goal is to make the site more recreational player-friendly, I see.

If the players are not flocking to the new offering could that be an indication of a preponderance of good players who are now staying away, or is it a case of time for the word to get out to recreational players that the new software gives them a better chance?

All of that to one side, pokeraddict (whom time has shown to be very knowledgeable in this area) points to several other deficiencies that Bodog will have o address.

I don't think anonymous tables have helped. This is something even the recreational players will worry about, even if it favours them. It smacks of a "secrecy lockdown" of every aspect of what is already a largely unregulated industry operated by secretive companies from obscure locations. They may worry that they are sitting opposite a table of killer sharks, but can't even see their screen names. A better move might have been to calculate a rating for each player, and display this alongside their screen names. This would have made it easy for recreational players to see whether they had joined a table that contained much more skilled players than they were. As regulars won, their ratings would increase.

The regulars already had the means to detect their prey, but making them wear the badge would warn the prey that they faced immediate predation.

Switching off datamining would not get noticed by recreational players, since they don't use it.

A "ghost town" would put off ALL players, even the recreational ones.

Skilled players would also worry that any chance of them independently verifying that no cheating was going on had been removed, leaving them 100% in the hands of the site operator to be honest, as well as proficient at detecting cheating. In the AP case, it was the room itself that did the cheating, so players were NOT protected by the room's own security staff, who were under orders to turn a blind eye to "house" cheats reported by players, or by more lowly monitoring staff.


Given that three major poker networks have been driven out of the US, Bodog may have thought they could make such drastic changes knowing that players would have to either put up with it, or quit playing poker altogether.

The 80% decline probably has more to do with the software being screwed up than players choosing to quit rather than accept the changes. However, if poker players are prepared to take a month or two off, they may be able to persuade Bodog to negotiate over the extent of these changes, and perhaps reverse the most unpopular ones.
 

BodogBecky

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Jul 28, 2009
Location
Boston, MA
Thanks for that useful and interesting perspective, pokeraddict - you have to wonder what Bodog Poker management's objectives are.

Here is a message from the Bodog Network VP on the changes:

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BodogBecky

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I know there are not many poker players here but I wanted to warn people here about this...

Obsessed with running off winning poker players, Bodog has now made it so that players no longer see the usernames of the other players at their cash games and tournaments. Players lost all of their notes, can no longer take notes, and Bodog removed the points for cash promotion without notice. Players are also complaining about dozens of bugs in the new update that make the new software unplayable.

For those of you that are not poker players, tracking software has caught hundreds if not thousands of cheats over the years. The most famous ones are the Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet insider cheating scandals. Without players catching them, they may have never been caught. Players have caught many bots and colluders this way. The poker forums are just about 100% against what Bodog did. Bodog is a ghost town tonight and according to PokerScout they are down over 80% in terms of traffic although Bodog blocked their ability to get exact counts a month or so ago because they thought traffic counts was somehow helping sharks. I guess Bodog does not care about what their players think or how players perceive the safety of their poker room now that they cannot be audited by a 3rd party. This calls into question the security of the entire poker network.

Maybe they think casual players will not care but they took the social aspect away from them which is among the important features in an online poker room. Casual players lost their virtual friends forever since they cannot be located anymore at the virtual tables. This whole thing just boggle the mind.

None of the bodog brand licensees would ever cheat anyone, ever. I say this because I am close with all the senior management and know exactly how things are run on the inside- with complete honesty and integrity. Anyway, I did want to share something from CS regarding your concern of bots and collusion, hopefully this will make you feel better about the update. :)

We can certainly understand why not being able to identify players by their screen names anymore would make other players nervous. Maintaining the integrity of the game and protecting our players has always been our number one priority. Our security policies haven’t changed and we will continue to flag any suspicious account activity and take action on these players. We are committed in our effort to rid our poker room of collusion and protecting the interest of honest players. We continue to evolve our security practices and employ tools that will create the most secure environment for our players. We also have and continue to enforce a strict policy that forbids Bodog employees from playing our tables. We will not risk our reputation or integrity on having employees play. If you observe anything in our poker room that makes you a little suspicious, we’d like to know about it. You would need to provide the table name, the seat and hand numbers you’d like us to look at when calling.

Thanks,
Becky
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
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Location
United Kingdom
None of the bodog brand licensees would ever cheat anyone, ever. I say this because I am close with all the senior management and know exactly how things are run on the inside- with complete honesty and integrity. Anyway, I did want to share something from CS regarding your concern of bots and collusion, hopefully this will make you feel better about the update. :)

We can certainly understand why not being able to identify players by their screen names anymore would make other players nervous. Maintaining the integrity of the game and protecting our players has always been our number one priority. Our security policies haven’t changed and we will continue to flag any suspicious account activity and take action on these players. We are committed in our effort to rid our poker room of collusion and protecting the interest of honest players. We continue to evolve our security practices and employ tools that will create the most secure environment for our players. We also have and continue to enforce a strict policy that forbids Bodog employees from playing our tables. We will not risk our reputation or integrity on having employees play. If you observe anything in our poker room that makes you a little suspicious, we’d like to know about it. You would need to provide the table name, the seat and hand numbers you’d like us to look at when calling.

Thanks,
Becky

This is the worry. The update makes it almost impossible to notice anything suspicious, unless it is so blatant that it shows up in a single game. Suspicion is usually aroused when particular screen names seem to "always have luck on their side", or "always win when sat at the table with xxxxxxxxx and yyyyyyy".

You will either get fewer reports, or an inundation of innocent occurrances now been see as "suspicious" because players are EXPECTING cheaters to be taking advantage of the anonymity. A desire for anonymity in this industry is seen as a sign of wanting to hide something. Many operators hide behind "fronts" to preserve the anonymity of the REAL owners. Bodog is actually a rare exception to this rule, with Calvin Ayre thrusting himself into the glare of publicity whilst making sure he stays well out of reach of the US authorities. He is also adept at "spin", and could make a sow's ear look like a silk purse by giving an interview, making a press release, or having an article published on his news portal.

He is no doubt trying to "spin" the current changes so that players who consider them bad are made to feel guilty in only wanting them reversed so that they can again "cheat" by using all the specialist tools.

In the comments, a "fish" laments that the change has also disabled "Sharkscope", a tool some "fish" used in order to steer clear of those tables stuffed with predatory players. Now they have no idea whether they are sharing a pool with minnows, or with sharks about to eat them alive.

The "pro" players may simply adjust their tactics and STILL predate the "fish", but with anonymity. Alternative tools may well be developed that will still give them an edge on anonymous tables. Worse, a "hole" could be found in the software that allows the anonymity to be broken, and this could then be exploited by an "underground" tool. The AP scandal was so successful because it was a software exploit, rather than a tool, and was clearly not detected by the KGC during audits, nor by their own security, unless we believe EVERY employee there was "in on it".

Saying "can never happen" is dangerous, because if it DID happen, even if nothing to do with a Bodog employee, it could destroy the reputation of Bodog poker permanently.
 

pokeraddict

Webmaster
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Location
Las Vegas
I had read that post from the Bodog VP. It loses all credibility when they link "like most predators" to an article talking about the alleged, but not backed up by any facts, $1 million extortion made by PokerScout that was laughed away by the industry. That is not the only thing about that website recently, but it is not the topic at hand...

Bodog has always wanted to be eccentric and be in the headlines. They got their way. Maybe they are right and will get the last laugh. I get the idea that they do not want to even want to have poker and it is a nuisance and this is their solution. Poker is a necessary evil for sportsbooks and this looks like the solution Bodog wants to take. It is their business and they have every right to try new things just as the poker community has the right to criticize them.

Other sportsbooks have bizarre rules about poker. One makes you wager your deposit 1x on sports before cashing it out. Poker does not count towards the WR. Another book forces players to make one sportsbook wager every x # of days to have access to the poker room. This is just an extension of those types of rules, but to the extreme that has most observers uneasy due to the potential for abuse.

I am not saying Bodog is not credible, there probably is not a stronger brand or company that accepts U.S. poker players. I do not think there is any malicious intent here. I just think the obsession over recreational players has gone too far and the poker that they are offering is not really poker and can be abused by cheats.

If I am wrong and Bodog becomes an industry poker leader and they control the cheats I will be happy to come right back here and say "I was wrong, Bodog had a great idea".
 

rockycatt

meistercatt
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Location
Boston
i think if a player wants to take notes on me like at the table via the client ability ok.

but for peeps / sharks that want to use stored poker traits of my play like he wont call a 7x bet on the river because a program says i prolly wont call or reraise then for useing that software , that has mixed reviews anyway at best i say no stop it

play on your own skill not a bought program use a pencil R C

PS and know i can see how wide spread it realy is
 

pokeraddict

Webmaster
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Location
Las Vegas
It appears that Bodog's new software ignores casino self exclusions as well. The CS reply shows that the issue will not be resolved and tells the player not to click the icon if they do not want the casino games:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


This puts Bodog in conflict with being considered an accredited casino:

Must offer and enforce spending limits in addition to both temporary and permanent self exclusion options.

https://www.casinomeister.com/accredited-casinos/
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
I guess the player need not click on the top right hand corner button if he/she does not wish to indulge in Blackjack; the question is does having the game available only a click away constitute temptation to a problem gambler, or should a self exclusion facility also be available - perhaps to ensure that the BJ button is not available?

I get the impression from the Bodog CS response that the introduction of an exclusion facility could still happen, but perhaps the Bodog rep would clarify that for us?
 

pokeraddict

Webmaster
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Aug 3, 2002
Location
Las Vegas
FWIW, every poker room that I know of will block their casino if you ask them except Bodog. This player was already self excluded, then had it reversed without requesting it. I guess I see that as being quite serious, especially since it cannot be resolved.

Also, if Bodog is all about protecting fish, how does embedding blackjack software into the poker client accomplish that? It obviously does not and the reason for putting it there is obvious, that is an entirely different discussion though.
 

ksb11

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May 10, 2009
Location
Wait'n for a payout!
FWIW, every poker room that I know of will block their casino if you ask them except Bodog. This player was already self excluded, then had it reversed without requesting it. I guess I see that as being quite serious, especially since it cannot be resolved.

Also, if Bodog is all about protecting fish, how does embedding blackjack software into the poker client accomplish that? It obviously does not and the reason for putting it there is obvious, that is an entirely different discussion though.

Excellent point though.
 

rockycatt

meistercatt
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Location
Boston
with all due respect bodog is a sports bet ,poker room , casino , and they make there living from this how they promote there games is there business period as long as they remain in the accredited list

now people that cheat using poker software programs that are forbidden simply dont belong in the poker room
lets remember we play every were in the world by house rules .

play on your decisions R C


PS If you want poker software [helper ] please post your poker room and player name so i can look you up

i might want to pencil you in red ,orange , green , or find were you are playing at the moment all over the globe and show up like i play there as a reg

below is a example of what they dont want [against the rules ] and the real spiriy of the game



Find the Fish with FishScope
Date: 2009-04-24
Author: Jayme Lyttle


Many of us have all fallen into the habit of starting up an eight table sit and go session and registering for the first ones we come across in the lobby. Being a successful online poker player involves much more than just registering for random tables. We have to do some research on our opponents in order to maximize the expected value of our poker sessions. There are too many table selection programs available to not take advantage of every piece of information we can get our hands on.

This is especially true when it comes to heads-up sit and gos. Knowing if your opponent is a winning or losing player is extremely valuable. You would obviously like to play heads-up against a losing player instead of a winning one. The problem is that by the time you look up a player on SharkScope, for example, that particular heads-up match may already be filled. Thanks to a great table selection application, looking up a player's statistics is faster than ever.

FishScope is a player selection tool used on Full Tilt Poker that quickly displays statistics on a potential opponent. You simply move your mouse cursor into the tournament lobby window and FishScope will trigger a SharkScope search, displaying your opponents’ stats instantly. This happens in approximately one second, so you can quickly decide if you want to join the heads-up match. It's that easy. Here is a sneak preview of what you can expect:



Here is how you get started using FishScope:
1. Go to.fishscope.de/ and download version 2.3.9a
2. Unzip the folder to your preferred location
3. Input your SharkScope login credentials



and quite a number of theses programs were always outlawed to begin with simply because they go over the line of what house rules allow
 
Last edited:

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
with all due respect bodog is a sports bet ,poker room , casino , and they make there living from this how they promote there games is there business period as long as they remain in the accredited list

now people that cheat using poker software programs that are forbidden simply dont belong in the poker room
lets remember we play every were in the world by house rules .

play on your decisions R C


PS If you want poker software [helper ] please post your poker room and player name so i can look you up

i might want to pencil you in red ,orange , green , or find were you are playing at the moment all over the globe and show up like i play there as a reg

below is a example of what they dont want [against the rules ] and the real spiriy of the game



Find the Fish with FishScope
Date: 2009-04-24
Author: Jayme Lyttle


Many of us have all fallen into the habit of starting up an eight table sit and go session and registering for the first ones we come across in the lobby. Being a successful online poker player involves much more than just registering for random tables. We have to do some research on our opponents in order to maximize the expected value of our poker sessions. There are too many table selection programs available to not take advantage of every piece of information we can get our hands on.

This is especially true when it comes to heads-up sit and gos. Knowing if your opponent is a winning or losing player is extremely valuable. You would obviously like to play heads-up against a losing player instead of a winning one. The problem is that by the time you look up a player on SharkScope, for example, that particular heads-up match may already be filled. Thanks to a great table selection application, looking up a player's statistics is faster than ever.

FishScope is a player selection tool used on Full Tilt Poker that quickly displays statistics on a potential opponent. You simply move your mouse cursor into the tournament lobby window and FishScope will trigger a SharkScope search, displaying your opponents’ stats instantly. This happens in approximately one second, so you can quickly decide if you want to join the heads-up match. It's that easy. Here is a sneak preview of what you can expect:



Here is how you get started using FishScope:
1. Go to.fishscope.de/ and download version 2.3.9a
2. Unzip the folder to your preferred location
3. Input your SharkScope login credentials



and quite a number of theses programs were always outlawed to begin with simply because they go over the line of what house rules allow

So why not block them at the software level. The users of these aids will find they don't work, but players who don't use them will see a "normal" poker table.

The Bodog move has not simply rendered these cheating tools ineffective, but have rendered the LEGITIMATE skill aspect of the game inoperative. In real B & M poker, you don't have a laptop by your side feeding you stats, but you DO see your opponent's face, and body language, and you can use your own memory of playing this opponent in the past to give you an edge.

The pros will be deterred because they can't use their arsenal of tools, but the "fish" will also be deterred because they can no longer use their gut instincts, or memory of a thorough thrashing by particular opponents in the past that they can use to avoid playing them in the future.

In the long term, I expect the pro players will STILL fleece the "fish", and will even find new tools to help them. On the other hand, the "fish" will have no way to take evasive action to avoid the predation. The fear that the pros will quickly find a new means of fleecing them will deter them from coming back until they can be assured by Bodog that they CANNOT be fleeced by clever pro players evolving their strategies. It could be more of a marketing problem, rather than conceptual.

It is such a change from the norm that uncertainty may be keeping players away, even those who are bound to be better off with this anonymous model.
 

rockycatt

meistercatt
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Location
Boston
there is also a great number of cheaters on cell phones and skype and thats even more rude

this should block them as well , thats what ftp was trying to do with that latest raped table exchange poker
format they last instituted i forget the name of it now but that was there intention along with speeding up rake

PS it was named RUSH POKER
 

pokeraddict

Webmaster
Joined
Aug 3, 2002
Location
Las Vegas
It turns out Bodog's anonymous tables can be hacked like the Party Poker ones:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


So let's review - Bodog removes usernames to make the tables more fish friendly, then one of the major datamining services cracks it is just a few days. Let's add this to the no longer honoring problem gambler exclusions, the complete lack of security the new Bodog software offers and .... well I will not continue, we all know.

Also, this website makes some great points about how trusting a KGC poker room is a ridiculous thought:

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

While I believe the sports book is still legit, I think the poker offering is not a secure site and should no longer be considered a legitimate poker room. They did not even bother to remove the usernames from the Bodog server and it got cracked in 3 days. What other security issues are there with this software that was touted as so secure that players need not worry about catching collusion and cheating because Bodog is on top of it?

I encourage Casinomeister to rethink the accredited status of Bodog.
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
I encourage Casinomeister to rethink the accredited status of Bodog.

Just a friendly reminder, if you want Bryan to see something like this ASAP do use the "Report Post" feature to bring it to his attention:

Attach Removed (Old not found)
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Blimey!!

EDIT

In the long term, I expect the pro players will STILL fleece the "fish", and will even find new tools to help them.

Replace with....


In a matter of days, I expect the pro players will STILL fleece the "fish", through the use of new tools developed by those companies who's current tools have been rendered valueless, yet who are not prepared to shut up shop and go away.


I was thinking more along the lines of a new statistical model having to be developed to make sense of the anonymous records, as the current method requires individual players to be identified to the hand histories.

I had assumed that since screen names no longer formed part of the software, there would be no need to unnecessarily send this data to the client as it would clog up bandwidth.

It now looks like the software was merely "patched", rather than being rebuilt, so it could contain many other holes. It was poorly coded software that opened the exploits to the insiders at AP and UB.

Now, the "sharks" have an even BIGGER edge than before at Party Poker at least, because not only can they track down the "fish" as before, they can do so whilst those "fish" have dropped their guard because they believe they have been granted anonymity, and that if they get fleeced, it is all down to luck of the "shark" bumping into them.

It also seems that data mining still works as before, when we were told that the point of this move was to render such unfair tools useless to their users, and thus level the playing field.

We only found out this so fast because the data mining company decided to spill the beans. They could just as easily have kept quiet about this exploit, and developed it into a new tool for the "sharks", been vague as to exactly how it works, but sell it by convincing users that it DID work, and was well worth buying. Even if it came to light, many would have dismissed it as a scam on the part of the developer, and considered it in the same light as those that peddle "roulette systems" that can supposedly give the player an edge on a random game.

The article suggests that this exploit could have been around for far longer, but being sold on the black market for use at Party Poker and Microgaming networks.

If it turns out it WAS being used by players on these networks undetected by said networks, then can we really rely on the assurances from Bodog that they have in place the necessary procedures that would allow them to spot any such new tools appearing in their room, and put a stop to them.

Reading an active process list is no good, as it only detects known tools. Something completely new just wouldn't ring alarm bells. Even existing tools could be hidden from such detection, easily done by anyone with some programming knowledge, especially where they build the "exe" locally from source code and generic libraries.
 

rockycatt

meistercatt
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Location
Boston
if there really is any holes in bodogs latest attempt to block cheats then this is a good article it will give them more of what they need to go in the directin that there traveling to rid the poker rooms of PC farms , skype cheats as well as cell phone cheats and data miners
 
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