Ebolaman's clarification on "Random"

[Ebolaman]

The initial "decision" on a slot spin is not random. The "software" first determines whether or not the spin will be a "win" or a "loss" based on the programmed payout percentage ( it could be based on an amount allowed to be paid out for a 24 hour period, or 2 days or whatever. That I don't know ). Now we'll say that the "software" has determined that a win is in order, based on it's current overall earnings (reels are still spinning folks ) It is allowed to give out, say, $5 in this instance. It will have a certain amount of $5 win combinations it can display. Here's where the "random" comes in. That is how casinos can say that the spins are random. The winning amount/ losing outcomes are determined as soon as you "click" your button. At least the pretty picture combinations are random But hey, does it really matter. I think most of us already knew this subconsciously anyway. Does anybody really believe that it's possible to program a machine and have it generate wins/loses 100% randomly over a certain period, with a very specific payout outcome ? Really?

 

[Tirilej]

You sound more like you're confusing yourself.

 

[Finn]

Dice simulation

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A random number generator is a computational device designed to generate a sequence of numbers or symbols that lack any pattern, i.e. appear random.

This site is built in ASP.NET and uses the random functions of the Microsoft .NET framework to generate random numbers.

2 sided dice, with sides 1 and 2.

99 dices

99 throws


You can keep running that simulation over and over again, and see that for individual dices the 99 throw average is usually somewhere in the 1.3-1.7 range, but the combined average for all dices stays in 1.49-1.51 range. The more the throws, the closer to the expected average things tend to go. Casinos don't need any cheating or predetermined results based on how much money their slots have paid recently, house edge, and possibly limiting the fluctuations in case their cash pool is smaller than other casinos by setting the maximum bet sizes lower than software default settings, or settings monthly or weekly maximum withdrawal limits to limit the "damage" a lucky high roller or couple can do in short period, is enough.

 

[catapultaudio]

I take it as you are posting that here you have it on good authority from somewhere? Some proof that that is, in fact, what they mean when they say its 'random' ?? Because it sounds a little silly to me !!

 

[bigjohn]

The initial "decision" on a slot spin is not random. The "software" first determines whether or not the spin will be a "win" or a "loss" based on the programmed payout percentage ( it could be based on an amount allowed to be paid out for a 24 hour period, or 2 days or whatever. That I don't know ). Now we'll say that the "software" has determined that a win is in order, based on it's current overall earnings (reels are still spinning folks ) It is allowed to give out, say, $5 in this instance. It will have a certain amount of $5 win combinations it can display. Here's where the "random" comes in. That is how casinos can say that the spins are random. The winning amount/ losing outcomes are determined as soon as you "click" your button. At least the pretty picture combinations are random But hey, does it really matter. I think most of us already knew this subconsciously anyway. Does anybody really believe that it's possible to program a machine and have it generate wins/loses 100% randomly over a certain period, with a very specific payout outcome ? Really?

Yes, it is absolutely possible.

This is where TTRP comes into play and TTRP is configured by the reel strip layouts and the paytable. If an RNG is queried for a number from 1 to 10 inclusive and 9 of those results represent a win and 1 result represents a loss the game will show a win 90% of the time in the long run with no further input required.

What you are suggesting is that the present spin outcome is partly determined by previous spins like a frutie and that would not fly from a licensed, major game supplier unless it was specified in the game description/paytable.

 

[Nifty29]

I really wish people would actually do some research and learn a little bit about probability, slot design, variance and RTP before making outlandish statements.

If anyone thinks that this "clarification" is even remotely accurate, then they need to take a long hard look at themselves.

Definitely a candidate for shiny hat of the month.

 

[Captain Chaos]

A quick Google will tell you that online slot RNG is completely independent of previous results, so you have the same odds of hitting any result every time. I think you are assuming that the RTP means it must be pre determined. It's not. Because it doesn't need to be.

If you genuinely believe what you are saying then I would need some seriously strong evidence to prove otherwise.

 

[gerilege]

As a mathematical topic with some background from my country , I would like to add that the requirement that the next outcome should be independent from the previous one is even more important than the "even distribution" or fairness of the RNG. You can always correct the results from a biased RNG if the outcomes are independent and you know the bias. Example:
There is an RNG producing two outcomes: 0 or 1. 80% of the time it is producing 0, the rest is 1. If the results are independent, you can easily fix the bias by considering pairs instead of individual values. You request two results, drop the result if that is 00 or 11, return 0 if the sequence is 01, return 1 if the sequence is 10.

 

[brianmon]

The initial "decision" on a slot spin is not random. The "software" first determines whether or not the spin will be a "win" or a "loss" based on the programmed payout percentage ( it could be based on an amount allowed to be paid out for a 24 hour period, or 2 days or whatever. That I don't know ). Now we'll say that the "software" has determined that a win is in order, based on it's current overall earnings (reels are still spinning folks ) It is allowed to give out, say, $5 in this instance. It will have a certain amount of $5 win combinations it can display. Here's where the "random" comes in.

A fairly accurate description of how an AWP/Fruitie works

 

[vinylweatherman]

The OP seems to be describing a compensated game such as a UK fruit machine, and then moves on to describe a form of slot machine that runs from some kind of keno game code in the background, in which case the results, though random, do not follow the natural TRTP as determined from the reel strips - in effect a weighted slot.

Most casinos slots though are truly random, or pseudo-random, as they use a software RNG to generate each reel stop in sequence, and then compute the resulting win from the final position of all reels. If the pseudo-RNG isn't very good, it may be possible to spot patterns.

A few slots also use a long cycle of predetermined results to meet a certain RTP, here there is a pattern, but the long cycles make it hard to use said pattern to predict what's coming next. The UK "Bar-X" machines often work like this, and the method suits such a simple game.

A non random game can be beaten, just ask the "pro" fruit machine player community in the UK. In most cases, this does not deprive the owner of any revenue as the machine still meets it's target. It's more a case of the "pro" knowing when to play and when to walk away to let others fill up the machine.

 

[whodatrec]

Some of you always seam to bash people saying online slots are not random. With the argument being it don`t have to be random its still got the house edge etc.. But why are their clear patterns on most slots? Certain winning combinations that never show and so on.. If it was truly random anything would be possible. Im pretty sure these slots are compensated in some way or another. That dossent mean you cant win, but i personally do not believe they are truly random.

If its is 100% random why are most software developers so secretive about how the games function? What possible edge can a player obtain by knowing how the games function if its 100% random? Also it seams its easier to win on the bigger casinos than the smaler ones. My biggest wins have always been at the big casinos. Probably because they get more play trough their slots, hence the bigger payouts.

 

[243 lines=daft]

There are members who clamp down on any discussion like this and start throwing around the concept of TRTP as if it is a fait accompli, but when you ask them to link to ANY proof that the big software houses allow a truly theoretical RTP then they disappear like dust on the wind.

The reality is the online casino industry is being allowed (by the powers that be, players representatives AND us the lazy gamblers!) to operate in an absolute wild west environment where they get away with providing minimal information about how the slots work.
Therefore conjecture will always be rife, rightly so. (Obviously it would take a few minutes at most for the big casinos to clarify the basics but they choose not to)

Having said that, I personally play at casinos where my experience and instinct leads me to believe/perceive a fixed rtp is being ensured through the utilisation of S and R bounce points.
The reason being I like the crazy hot streaks that can result.
In contrast, when I have played at 3Dice I have always felt it was nearer in play to the truly random type of slots found in reno etc (possibly because it's a US facing casino?)
But that's not so exciting for me so I avoid 3dice (even though it may be closer to the true idea of random!)

 

[quber]

The initial "decision" on a slot spin is not random. The "software" first determines whether or not the spin will be a "win" or a "loss" based on the programmed payout percentage ( it could be based on an amount allowed to be paid out for a 24 hour period, or 2 days or whatever. That I don't know ). Now we'll say that the "software" has determined that a win is in order, based on it's current overall earnings (reels are still spinning folks ) It is allowed to give out, say, $5 in this instance. It will have a certain amount of $5 win combinations it can display. Here's where the "random" comes in. That is how casinos can say that the spins are random. The winning amount/ losing outcomes are determined as soon as you "click" your button. At least the pretty picture combinations are random But hey, does it really matter. I think most of us already knew this subconsciously anyway. Does anybody really believe that it's possible to program a machine and have it generate wins/loses 100% randomly over a certain period, with a very specific payout outcome ? Really?

What a load of tosh.

Have a read of these links and then you will understand how they really work,

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[Janek12]

The reality is the online casino industry is being allowed (by the powers that be, players representatives AND us the lazy gamblers!) to operate in an absolute wild west environment where they get away with providing minimal information about how the slots work.
Therefore conjecture will always be rife, rightly so. (Obviously it would take a few minutes at most for the big casinos to clarify the basics but they choose not to)

Not to mention that the major casino software companies could easily implement the Randomness Control feature used currently solely by Betvoyager to my knowledge. That would also put an end to all speculation.

But as you say - why would they? They still get a lot of customers no matter how much they disregard the players' concerns - due to the special nature of this entertainment - its high addictiveness...

 

[brianmon]

What a load of tosh.

Have a read of these links and then you will understand how they really work,

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But with all due respect, these articles aren't written by or confirmed by any online gambling software companies. also the articles seem to be based more on stand-alone physical units and on fictitious slots at that

 

[rshkrn]

random means completely random, the result of one spin has nothing whatsoever to do with the previous 1,10,100,100000 spins. Sure.....if say a feature hasn't hit in 1000 spins, it may hit soon based on "probability" but it can also easily go another 1000 spins without hitting!

take a simple 3reel example in which each reel has 10 positions and only the center line pays, nothing else...the end result of the spin can be any 1 out of 1000 possible outcomes (10x10x10). So if you spin say a 1000 times you could theoretically hit every position 1 time, but we know that's never happening.....why? because 1000 is a negligible sample size, spin 1 million times and you may still be off the expected value by a few hundred, a billion spins could get you a lot closer to the expected distributions

Now if you think of the 5 reel slots with like 50-100 positions the spin possibilities go into millions and each spin is just 1 out of that number at random.....


My strong advice: Accept that every slot spin is random and an independent result!!!

 

[gagamel]

I`m a little pissed to read every week the same BS threads. The games are not random blablabla.

If I do not trust the game providers I would not play the games.

In my opinion a lot of the guys complaining here have a gambling problem and take this forum as a platform for their frustration.

If you make a deposit and you lose than this is the normal way of playing.

If you win you are lucky.

 

[MiltonW]

I`m a little pissed to read every week the same BS threads. The games are not random blablabla.

If I do not trust the game providers I would not play the games.

In my opinion a lot of the guys complaining here have a gambling problem and take this forum as a platform for their frustration.

If you make a deposit and you lose than this is the normal way of playing.

If you win you are lucky.

You have read Old / Expired Link of course.
As long as there is no transparancy, I choose to believe most casinos are not fair. If it is so easy to cheat, why wouldn't they...

 

[quber]

But with all due respect, these articles aren't written by or confirmed by any online gambling software companies. also the articles seem to be based more on stand-alone physical units and on fictitious slots at that

He uses a fictitious slot so he doesn't infringe any copyright.

If a machine can be made to return a set % to the house by being perfectly random then why try to complicate things by having to check how much to pay then deciding which symbols to show to achieve that then doing it over and over for each player? the extra work for the Data Base isn't worth it and the more complexity you put into a program the more chance for something to go wrong. As long as the paytable maths is right the casino wins.

Look at a physical roulette table, the house will hold 2.70% and they have been making money for hundreds of years by using pure randomness. There is no reason to complicate things. If Microgaming or Netent or any of the others were fixing things then their business would fold overnight if anything got out, it's just not worth it for them. Williams and IGT make billions offline why would they risk that with dodgy online slots?

Anyone who thinks they are not random shouldn't be playing them.

 

[gagamel]

You have read Old / Expired Link of course.
As long as there is no transparancy, I choose to believe most casinos are not fair. If it is so easy to cheat, why wouldn't they...

Because I`m in front with slots. And not 500 or so. It`s a lot of money. But maybe I`m invisible for them or I`m the lucky guy and they let me win.

But maybe it is because I know when to stop.

 

[MiltonW]

Because I`m in front with slots. And not 500 or so. It`s a lot of money. But maybe I`m invisible for them or I`m the lucky guy and they let me win.

But maybe it is because I know when to stop.

Lotteries pay out millions too. What's their rtp you think? Casinos just have to use the 'fix' as described in the article. Some people will still win, but overall the casino can't lose...

 

[Captain Chaos]

Lotteries pay out millions too. What's their rtp you think? Casinos just have to use the 'fix' as described in the article. Some people will still win, but overall the casino can't lose...

But the casino can't lose anyway, hence the RTP value. So why would you bother trying to fix it? One dodgy software provider does not make the whole industry corrupt, does it? You get dodgy operators in almost any area of business.

A correctly designed slot, as shown in the the Wizard Of Odds links above will deliver the correct level of house edge. That's why you would be daft to mess about with the RNG. The slot is designed to give the house an edge. The slot could could give out 10 1000x wins in a row if it wanted. The house will always ultimately win over time due to its edge.

 

[MiltonW]

But the casino can't lose anyway, hence the RTP value. So why would you bother trying to fix it? One dodgy software provider does not make the whole industry corrupt, does it? You get dodgy operators in almost any area of business.

A correctly designed slot, as shown in the the Wizard Of Odds links above will deliver the correct level of house edge. That's why you would be daft to mess about with the RNG. The slot is designed to give the house an edge. The slot could could give out 10 1000x wins in a row if it wanted. The house will always ultimately win over time due to its edge.

What kind of business plan is that. Possibly lose millions at first, but in a couple of years we're sure to get it back. No way, they want to make money all the time. The real big guys can maybe hold out by just using the true rtp, but I'm pretty sure most smaller casinos have a 'fix'.

 

[Tirilej]

I can't stop wondering about the reason for starting this thread, and then just leave.

I believe this is thoughts from a frustrated guy who lost more than he could afford.
Actually I think the same about most people who scream about casinos not being fair. Fair to who?

I can assure that if you who don't trust them, were winning a lot, you wouldn't say a word.

You can't use skill to win on random games, and what you can't control will always bother you.

A few words from someone who always only play at places where I trust them who is behind it a 100%.

 

[Captain Chaos]

What kind of business plan is that. Possibly lose millions at first, but in a couple of years we're sure to get it back. No way, they want to make money all the time. The real big guys can maybe hold out by just using the true rtp, but I'm pretty sure most smaller casinos have a 'fix'.

What business doesn't want to make money all the time though?

Let's compare business plans shall we?

1. Set up an online casino with a fair, trusted and stringently tested RNG, with enough capital to cope with the variance that comes with running such an operation knowing that in the long run due to the house edge I should make nice profits. Risk? As much as any other professionally run outfit.

2. Same as the above. But trying to be really greedy I decide to use a cheat switch, thereby cheating my players and garnering profits every month. Hoping that somehow this information doesn't come out, ruining the business and potentially getting sued by the players I have cheated. Risk? Potential ruination for something I would have probably got anyway if I had chosen to be honest.

I'm choosing 1 everyday!

 

[spintee]

I can't stop wondering about the reason for starting this thread, and then just leave.

I believe this is thoughts from a frustrated guy who lost more than he could afford.
Actually I think the same about most people who scream about casinos not being fair. Fair to who?

I can assure that if you who don't trust them, were winning a lot, you wouldn't say a word.

You can't use skill to win on random games, and what you can't control will always bother you.

A few words from someone who always only play at places where I trust them who is behind it a 100%.

Every 1 gets abit frustrated once in a while myself includded most days, I do not post threads about a loss or I would have time to gamble,
The highlight bit comes to effect where there is alot of sites out there what are not fair, Rouges, even the top nocth casions get it wrong sometimes, and people come on here and sorted, just imagine how many people get ripped and they do not no about these sites, Me myself have been lucky and no a dogy site when hit

 

[quber]

Every 1 gets abit frustrated once in a while myself includded most days, I do not post threads about a loss or I would have time to gamble,
The highlight bit comes to effect where there is alot of sites out there what are not fair, Rouges, even the top nocth casions get it wrong sometimes, and people come on here and sorted, just imagine how many people get ripped and they do not no about these sites, Me myself have been lucky and no a dogy site when hit

Most rogue sites though are not because of dodgy software they are because of withdrawal issues or bonuses not being honoured or dodgy T's and C's etc.

 

[MiltonW]

What business doesn't want to make money all the time though?

Let's compare business plans shall we?

1. Set up an online casino with a fair, trusted and stringently tested RNG, with enough capital to cope with the variance that comes with running such an operation knowing that in the long run due to the house edge I should make nice profits. Risk? As much as any other professionally run outfit.

2. Same as the above. But trying to be really greedy I decide to use a cheat switch, thereby cheating my players and garnering profits every month. Hoping that somehow this information doesn't come out, ruining the business and potentially getting sued by the players I have cheated. Risk? Potential ruination for something I would have probably got anyway if I had chosen to be honest.

I'm choosing 1 everyday!

Ah, if only it was that easy. Where do you get 'enough capital'? It is entirely possible you'll go deep into the red for the first few years.
I feel there is a sort of stockholm syndrome going on here. Even people who lose badly are apologizing for the casinos, because they're just not lucky. These kind of 'addiction' businesses are hardly ever fair. Drug dealers also cut their drugs, as if anybody can complain...

 

[mathsboy1975]

Leaving aside all sane arguments based on probability and random number generation, how come there have never been any stories of disgruntled former employees of a casino/game provider that have turned whistleblower on the industry? Why would the moderating bodies that are in place to verify the RNGs that casino software uses then turn a blind eye to these "rigged" slots and games? Are they in on the conspiracy too?

The laws of probability ensure that the game is stacked alright - it is stacked in favour of the casinos. We as players know this. The casino will make money regardless due to this fact. Why on earth would they run the risk of losing it all by getting greedy and "tweaking" the games?? It makes no sense at all.

We hit the spin button on a slot KNOWING that we are not expected to win long term. If we as players cannot handle that fact, then we simply should not play anymore.

 

[whodatrec]

This fix, would explain the dredded cashout curse! So anyone who questions the randomness of slots is a problem gambler? Or has lost more than he could afford? Im up the last month but i still question the true randomness of these games. It would make sence for the casinos to implement these "fixes". If a casino is down on a certain game then its becomes cold and so on.

 

[spintee]

Leaving aside all sane arguments based on probability and random number generation, how come there have never been any stories of disgruntled former employees of a casino/game provider that have turned whistleblower on the industry? Why would the moderating bodies that are in place to verify the RNGs that casino software uses then turn a blind eye to these "rigged" slots and games? Are they in on the conspiracy too?

The laws of probability ensure that the game is stacked alright - it is stacked in favour of the casinos. We as players know this. The casino will make money regardless due to this fact. Why on earth would they run the risk of losing it all by getting greedy and "tweaking" the games?? It makes no sense at all.

We hit the spin button on a slot KNOWING that we are not expected to win long term. If we as players cannot handle that fact, then we simply should not play anymore.

Theres plenty, You got to look in the right place, Goverment makes billons of online gaming so its not going to be the news head lines, that a player lost a few thousnd quid, Look at all the tv sites now day adberyise sites, there the most rouge out there

E;G masion casino, now got bet way and now hipprodrome? Mansion is on the no can do list, But still do not mention there siter sites on her? next to mansion casino

 

[whodatrec]

Leaving aside all sane arguments based on probability and random number generation, how come there have never been any stories of disgruntled former employees of a casino/game provider that have turned whistleblower on the industry? Why would the moderating bodies that are in place to verify the RNGs that casino software uses then turn a blind eye to these "rigged" slots and games? Are they in on the conspiracy too?

The laws of probability ensure that the game is stacked alright - it is stacked in favour of the casinos. We as players know this. The casino will make money regardless due to this fact. Why on earth would they run the risk of losing it all by getting greedy and "tweaking" the games?? It makes no sense at all.

We hit the spin button on a slot KNOWING that we are not expected to win long term. If we as players cannot handle that fact, then we simply should not play anymore.

Well in a multi billion dollar industry there will always be corruption... Malta,Gibraltar and so on would lose out on alot of money if the casinos packed up and left!

To me slots are entertainment. I have won alot so offcourse i know i can win or lose.. Im not saying its a scam, but im convinced its "rigged" in some manner

 

[Tirilej]

It would make sence for the casinos to implement these "fixes"

No it wouldn't and that's exactly what other posters have tried to explain to you...and a few more...

 

[whodatrec]

So why are you so sure that im wrong and they are right? Because the casino says so? The fact of the matter is we will probably never know the real truth about it.

 

[Finn]

It would make sence for the casinos to implement these "fixes". If a casino is down on a certain game then its becomes cold and so on.

No it wouldn't. The house edge is there, just like landbased casinos have house edge, and they don't use magnets, radiation or anything like that to turn a roulette table cold because it has paid too much recently.

 

[MiltonW]

No it wouldn't and that's exactly what other posters have tried to explain to you...and a few more...

You are incredibly naive.



I choose to believe the developer, and also the admission of the owner of the software company. We still don't know which casinos these are btw...

 

[dionysus]

And what does that prove? If you can't source the material, it well may be the ramblings of some nut job. Could also be fly-by-night crap-ass rough slots noone bothers with and notoriously rogue.

If you say you choose to believe the developers, well, 3Dice guys talk about their rtg being fair on their original games - guess you'll have to believe them as well (which I happen to).

 

[dionysus]

Odd. I see you play online. I can't fathom who, if they belive slots are rigged, would actually play online.

 

[MiltonW]

And what does that prove? If you can't source the material, it well may be the ramblings of some nut job. Could also be fly-by-night crap-ass rough slots noone bothers with and notoriously rogue.

Excuse you? The source is ELIOT JACOBSON, PH.D, who was asked to certify.

 

[dionysus]

And again..and? We don't know the casino youre referencing. Could be some hack job run together by some dude out of college with cut and paste fruits.

 

[MiltonW]

And again..and? We don't know the casino youre referencing. Could be some hack job run together by some dude out of college with cut and paste fruits.

14 online casinos. Bryan suggested it might be B3W...

 

[dionysus]

I till don't get what you're trying to get at here?
Anyone with moderate skills can whip up some slots and launch them online and rig the Hell out of them.
Reputable casinos don't NEED to - as many posters have pointed out.

 

[quber]

Excuse you? The source is ELIOT JACOBSON, PH.D, who was asked to certify.

It was one game from a supplier we don't know and it was only mentioned by a developer over chat and yet you choose to believe that over common sense that a multi billion dollar company would risk all for a few dollars more. As i said before Microgaming, Netent, Williams IGT etc are not going to put dodgy software out there it would be absolutely ridiculous, thay are raking in millions a month so explain to us why they would risk that?

have a look at this 1st Quarter report from Netent and tell me that is a dodgy company that is ripping people off.

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[K2C]

The initial "decision" on a slot spin is not random. The "software" first determines whether or not the spin will be a "win" or a "loss" based on the programmed payout percentage ( it could be based on an amount allowed to be paid out for a 24 hour period, or 2 days or whatever. That I don't know ). Now we'll say that the "software" has determined that a win is in order, based on it's current overall earnings (reels are still spinning folks ) It is allowed to give out, say, $5 in this instance. It will have a certain amount of $5 win combinations it can display. Here's where the "random" comes in. That is how casinos can say that the spins are random. The winning amount/ losing outcomes are determined as soon as you "click" your button. At least the pretty picture combinations are random But hey, does it really matter. I think most of us already knew this subconsciously anyway. Does anybody really believe that it's possible to program a machine and have it generate wins/loses 100% randomly over a certain period, with a very specific payout outcome ? Really?

May I ask if you are talking about one particular software here? It would be impossible to assert that no software in the world acts like above-described. After all, the OP himself may hire a coder to program a slot machine of his own which would work exactly like this and then run it in his own "casino" to prove his case

Major software providers are certified by professionals. In addition I conducted comprehensive research of my own on several slot machines powered by Playtech and Microgaming, using the large samples of spins, both from free play and real money play. For Playtech one can use the numbers form TST report in conjunction with the maximum likelihood estimators to obtain the symbol frequencies on each reel. For Microgaming you can go even further and obtain the actual reel layouts. Then you would use your sample (or better create a new one) to conduct the randomness tests. None of the chi-squareds I observed were suspicious, no other signs of dependencies were found.

Not to overwhelm you with the statistical terms, those PT and MG slots I looked at were random in the same sense the "an unbiased coin" or "a fair die" or "a well shuffled deck" is.

Putting it even more simple, what OP wrote is nonsense.

 

[MiltonW]

It was one game from a supplier we don't know and it was only mentioned by a developer over chat and yet you choose to believe that over common sense that a multi billion dollar company would risk all for a few dollars more. As i said before Microgaming, Netent, Williams IGT etc are not going to put dodgy software out there it would be absolutely ridiculous, thay are raking in millions a month so explain to us why they would risk that?

have a look at this 1st Quarter report from Netent and tell me that is a dodgy company that is ripping people off.

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No, it was *ALL* games, and everybody does it. Read the article. Either you believe the certifier or not. I guess you're calling him a liar.

 

[whodatrec]

I till don't get what you're trying to get at here?
Anyone with moderate skills can whip up some slots and launch them online and rig the Hell out of them.
Reputable casinos don't NEED to - as many posters have pointed out.

They dont NEED to, but who says they dont? As pointed out earlier how would they ensure proffit or even keeping head above water when they start their buisness?

 

[quber]

No, it was *ALL* games, and everybody does it. Read the article. Either you believe the certifier or not. I guess you're calling him a liar.

From the article you have read so well...

"It is simply not the case that every casino software company produces software that is capable of cheating. I know many companies with integrity. I know many companies that are not crooked."

He talked to one programmer from ONE company and the only game on the site that supposedly had rogue code in was craps.

One programmer, that could very well have a gripe with the company, is no evidence of fixing.

 

[spintee]

No, it was *ALL* games, and everybody does it. Read the article. Either you believe the certifier or not. I guess you're calling him a liar.

So why are you so sure that im wrong and they are right? Because the casino says so? The fact of the matter is we will probably never know the real truth about it.

We will neter no the real truth, after reading a few replys I can honestly say that nothing is concrete as WMS said about these dogy jurisdictions, Isle man ect, I mean who does run them? most probably same person whos owns most casinos,, All I can say is from qhat I have read do not trust any government, And jurisdictions are paying these millons to have the license that do no mean shit

 

[dionysus]

I should see if dun is selling shares in TFH Co.

 

[MiltonW]

From the article you have read so well...

"It is simply not the case that every casino software company produces software that is capable of cheating. I know many companies with integrity. I know many companies that are not crooked."

He talked to one programmer from ONE company and the only game on the site that supposedly had rogue code in was craps.

One programmer, that could very well have a gripe with the company, is no evidence of fixing.

Are you an affiliate or something? Why are some of you so apologetic for the casinos? Now if for instance microgaming would at least publish the rtps, and we could see notarized winnings of the casinos, but no, everything is kept secret. Of course a lot of them are cheating...