Ebolaman's clarification on "Random"

[quber]

Are you an affiliate or something? Why are some of you so apologetic for the casinos? Now if for instance microgaming would at least publish the rtps, and we could see notarized winnings of the casinos, but no, everything is kept secret. Of course a lot of them are cheating...

No not an affiliate or anything just a player.

did you watch the video in the link I posted above?

If you haven't got time for that then maybe have a read of the interim report here Outdated URL (Invalid) that seems to be what you are looking for. took me 1 minute to find it because I look at suppliers web sites and check them myself instead of relying on some heresay.

 

[dionysus]

Of course. Because? Oh right, there is no 'because'. We opt for trusting CM, the mangers and owners who we have not only have client relationships but authentic friendships for some, stats for some players going back ages, a history of online service....gee, I'll put that against 'because I say so' and 'some dude somewhere said something in a chat'.

 

[quber]

I should see if dun is selling shares in TFH Co.

Those aluminium prices are going through the roof

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he must certainly be churning out a few today.

 

[MiltonW]

No not an affiliate or anything just a player.

did you watch the video in the link I posted above?

If you haven't got time for that then maybe have a read of the interim report here Outdated URL (Invalid) that seems to be what you are looking for. took me 1 minute to find it because I look at suppliers web sites and check them myself instead of relying on some heresay.

I've been a software developer for 20 years. I've seen my share of slick company presentations, and it's all bull. We always have to code backdoors and 'special' features, to sweeten the software. I just can't understand why anyone would trust people who aren't totally open about what they're doing. They're just saying, trust us, and you do...

 

[spintee]

Those aluminium prices are going through the roof

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he must certainly be churning out a few today.

Just if casinos would chuck out abit of alloy

 

[dionysus]

I've been a software developer for 20 years. I've seen my share of slick company presentations, and it's all bull. We always have to code backdoors and 'special' features, to sweeten the software. I just can't understand why anyone would trust people who aren't totally open about what they're doing. They're just saying, trust us, and you do...

Well, I'm guessing you've closed every casino acct, don't visit the B and M and, I dunno knit, or some hobby? Because if you believe casinos are rigging games when there's no need to and you can't trust 'em, it would be mad (MAD I TELL TA as Nifty would say) to play at all.

 

[MiltonW]

Well, I'm guessing you've closed every casino acct, don't visit the B and M and, I dunno knit, or some hobby? Because if you believe casinos are rigging games when there's no need to and you can't trust 'em, it would be mad (MAD I TELL TA as Nifty would say) to play at all.

I just play for fun. I only take 3 or 400% kind of bonuses, just to get a lot of playing time. My biggest deposit ever was 50 euros, so I'm not what you call a High Roller

 

[dionysus]

Er - I'm guessing there's fun mode for free...you can save that fifty bucks?

 

[mathsboy1975]

I've been a software developer for 20 years. I've seen my share of slick company presentations, and it's all bull. We always have to code backdoors and 'special' features, to sweeten the software. I just can't understand why anyone would trust people who aren't totally open about what they're doing. They're just saying, trust us, and you do...

But what you are saying also suggests that the bodies that certify the games as fair are also corrupt. If the likes of MG and NetEnt etc coded backdoors into the slots to allow providers to tweak RTP and someone found out about it then there would be hell to pay for them.

In particular, let us say that we have "honest" casino A that wants nothing to do with tweaking and is happy to make their money from the theoretical house edge inherent to the basic game design.

Then let us say that we have "corrupt" casino B that wants some dodgy probability modification that fudges the numbers.

Now if it ever got out that this provider made the modifications asked for by casino B, then all "honest" casinos would likely pull the plug with the developer as they would want to be distanced from the "corrupt" casinos.

In all honesty, why would a game provider run this risk of alienating their "honest" casino customers by making a few custom code tweaks for a greedy casino?? The only way that would make sense would be if everyone was in it together - casinos, game developers, casino regulators, RNG certifiers etc. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[MiltonW]

But what you are saying also suggests that the bodies that certify the games as fair are also corrupt. If the likes of MG and NetEnt etc coded backdoors into the slots to allow providers to tweak RTP and someone found out about it then there would be hell to pay for them.

In particular, let us say that we have "honest" casino A that wants nothing to do with tweaking and is happy to make their money from the theoretical house edge inherent to the basic game design.

Then let us say that we have "corrupt" casino B that wants some dodgy probability modification that fudges the numbers.

Now if it ever got out that this provider made the modifications asked for by casino B, then all "honest" casinos would likely pull the plug with the developer as they would want to be distanced from the "corrupt" casinos.

In all honesty, why would a game provider run this risk of alienating their "honest" casino customers by making a few custom code tweaks for a greedy casino?? The only way that would make sense would be if everyone was in it together - casinos, game developers, casino regulators, RNG certifiers etc. It just doesn't make sense.

MicroGaming I only suspect of steadily lowering the RTP. Real Time Gaming of course has three settings, and you can bet that the casinos that give the 400% bonuses are on the 92.5 setting. All others I have my doubts about. Probably there are switches in their software, and some casinos know this, and some don't.
And certification is useless. They only check the given data for correctness. After certification, the software provider just uses different settings.

 

[dionysus]

It isn't as though casinos dont go through a MAMMOTH process acquiring licensing deals - to suggest 'some know, some don't', is saying either some of the most reputable owners in this forum are either in on it or mentally deficient, and I sincerely doubt either is the case.

 

[MiltonW]

It isn't as though casinos dont go through a MAMMOTH process acquiring licensing deals - to suggest 'some know, some don't', is saying either some of the most reputable owners in this forum are either in on it or mentally deficient, and I sincerely doubt either is the case.

How is a casino to know what the software can and cannot do? They just license it, and if they are legit, they won't go asking...

 

[mathsboy1975]

MicroGaming I only suspect of steadily lowering the RTP. Real Time Gaming of course has three settings, and you can bet that the casinos that give the 400% bonuses are on the 92.5 setting. All others I have my doubts about. Probably there are switches in their software, and some casinos know this, and some don't.
And certification is useless. They only check the given data for correctness. After certification, the software provider just uses different settings.

But this would be so simple to check against using some fairly elementary statistical analysis. If you are suggesting that the RTP is steadily decreasing, then all we would need would be the game records of any real money account with a MG casino and you would see a clear pattern. Furthermore, given knowledge of the reel strips, you could do a basic chi-square test on observed against expected reel positions. The only way to alter the RTP would be to weight the reel positions such that higher paying winlines came in less often. Of course it would not quite be that simple due to the bonus round features but the basic principle remains - you could test the hypothesis of declining RTP.

I am sorry but I just cannot see how this makes them money. If anything you would want to increase RTP of long term players as you know that they will come back again and again. Longer gameplay equates to more money for the casino simply via the inbuilt house edge.

I do concede that certification could be pretty useless though and in all honesty I would personally welcome some kind of certification based on an external monitoring body or institution that had the power to actually have access to the game source code.

 

[MiltonW]

But this would be so simple to check against using some fairly elementary statistical analysis. If you are suggesting that the RTP is steadily decreasing, then all we would need would be the game records of any real money account with a MG casino and you would see a clear pattern. Furthermore, given knowledge of the reel strips, you could do a basic chi-square test on observed against expected reel positions. The only way to alter the RTP would be to weight the reel positions such that higher paying winlines came in less often. Of course it would not quite be that simple due to the bonus round features but the basic principle remains - you could test the hypothesis of declining RTP.

I am sorry but I just cannot see how this makes them money. If anything you would want to increase RTP of long term players as you know that they will come back again and again. Longer gameplay equates to more money for the casino simply via the inbuilt house edge.

I do concede that certification could be pretty useless though and in all honesty I would personally welcome some kind of certification based on an external monitoring body or institution that had the power to actually have access to the game source code.

You can't check RTP within a overseeable period That would take years. And players will come back anyway, chasing their losses.

 

[mathsboy1975]

You can't check RTP within a overseeable period That would take years. And players will come back anyway, chasing their losses.

Sorry but I disagree here. If (as you say) RTP is being decreased over time you could analyse it. Unless of course your theory allows for the RTP to periodically be increased also inbetween decreases.

Also I think your second statement is not far from being a generalisation that all players are problem gamblers. Do not forget that a lot of players are happy to pop in £50 a month to their account and play small stakes purely for entertainment purposes. I am guilty of chasing losses on occasion but I know that not all players are and are just in it for the fun.

 

[Captain Chaos]

MicroGaming I only suspect of steadily lowering the RTP.

You can't check RTP within a overseeable period That would take years. And players will come back anyway, chasing their losses.

If you cannot check the RTP within an overseeable period then how do YOU know they have lowered the RTP? If, as you say, you cannot check this analysis then you are just making unfounded assumptions based on what you want to believe is true. Just because you lost a chunk of change and haven't won in a while doesn't mean that someone else has. Nor does it prove that the RTP has been altered.

 

[MiltonW]

If you cannot check the RTP within an overseeable period then how do YOU know they have lowered the RTP? If, as you say, you cannot check this analysis then you are just making unfounded assumptions based on what you want to believe is true. Just because you lost a chunk of change and haven't won in a while doesn't mean that someone else has. Nor does it prove that the RTP has been altered.

I assure you it's impossible to get an accurate RTP without millions of spins. And that's the whole problem, noone can prove anything, because if the slots are random, any outcome is possible, even a million dead spins in a row.
I haven't lost any money btw, I cashed quite a few no deposit bonuses, so I'm still ahead

 

[Captain Chaos]

I assure you it's impossible to get an accurate RTP without millions of spins. And that's the whole problem, noone can prove anything, because if the slots are random, any outcome is possible, even a million dead spins in a row.
I haven't lost any money btw, I cashed quite a few no deposit bonuses, so I'm still ahead

I don't think it is impossible personally. Get a bunch of computers together, stick them on quick spin and run them on auto spin. 10 computers would only need 300000 spins each to collect 3m spins. Collate the data and analyse it from there. All sets of data are truly random so collating the data shouldn't be an issue I would have thought. You could probably have it done in, what, a month maybe?

 

[gagamel]

There is a thread here in the forum.
A guy made more than 2 million spins on a MG game and the RTP was exactly the same as told.
I`m too tired to search it, but you can find it here in the forums.

 

[mathsboy1975]

I don't think it is impossible personally. Get a bunch of computers together, stick them on quick spin and run them on auto spin. 10 computers would only need 300000 spins each to collect 3m spins. Collate the data and analyse it from there. All sets of data are truly random so collating the data shouldn't be an issue I would have thought. You could probably have it done in, what, a month maybe?

The problem is that it would need to be the same account and it would need to be real money as presumably this conspiracy theory would require decreasing RTP on a per user basis. Ideally you would want to look at retrospective spins over the lifetime of a fairly high roller account and maybe analyse a years worth at a time. Having said all of that I would not want to go through the hassle of doing it as I personally don't think that MG have either the ability or the inclination to lower RTP.

 

[MiltonW]

The problem is that it would need to be the same account and it would need to be real money as presumably this conspiracy theory would require decreasing RTP on a per user basis. Ideally you would want to look at retrospective spins over the lifetime of a fairly high roller account and maybe analyse a years worth at a time. Having said all of that I would not want to go through the hassle of doing it as I personally don't think that MG have either the ability or the inclination to lower RTP.

No, it's not per user, that would be insane. It would have to be real money though, as it is quite likely that the free versions have a higher rtp.

 

[gagamel]

No, it's not per user, that would be insane. It would have to be real money though, as it is quite likely that the free versions have a higher rtp.

I`m out now.
You really started great here.
All the best and please buy a tin foil hat as soon as possible.

P.S.: Don`t feed the trolls

 

[Captain Chaos]

No, it's not per user, that would be insane. It would have to be real money though, as it is quite likely that the free versions have a higher rtp.

Really?? That's funny. Because I swear I have had just the same experience on free play as real money.

Whatever. I'm out of this thread now. I shall leave a big shiny tin foil hat on the table for you. Go on. Take it. You've earnt it!

 

[MiltonW]

Really?? That's funny. Because I swear I have had just the same experience on free play as real money.

Whatever. I'm out of this thread now. I shall leave a big shiny tin foil hat on the table for you. Go on. Take it. You've earnt it!

Lots of members here actually believe this. For instance: https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...ode-vs-real-mode-discrepancies.61849/?t=61849

 

[Ebolaman]

Not Gone.

Hi all. I did not just post and leave. I did something called "going to sleep" lol I have been playing online slots frequently now for over 3 years. I understand that this statement seems "trollish" but I can assure that I have no ill intent. I can back up my statement with what I believe is very strong practical video evidence. It is just as foolish to say that casinos rely on the laws of probability without having any practical proof. Just because they say so? Just because math geniuses (which some of you are) state that casinos must be following these rules because they are so absolute ? My intention here is to have an intelligent, mature discussion based on fact only. No biases, no wishful thinking, no egos. I believe that the evidence that I have, and my own studies can "prove" that the facts show otherwise. Why now? What do I hope to gain? Well, three weeks ago I decided to stop taking the large amounts of anti-depressants that I had been prescribed for the past 20 years. I now have motivation to do things. May seem trivial, but not to somebody who has experienced nothing but mental and physical numbness for 20 years!! So please, just listen to what I have to say and I will do the same. I respect everybody and have an open mind but I can't just ignore practical facts. For instance, if I showed you that you could join 30 casinos (you could not have played there before), play a specific game (won't mention it yet) and spin 10 times on each, as soon as you hit the first losing spin on a certain square (it's a board game bonus slot), the next 3 spins will be the exactly the same for all 30 casinos !!!, would you not admit that at least something was at least a little off with the 100% random theory? And is 30 casinos enough? How many would just say it was coincidence? I have tons of examples of things like this. If nobody is interested, I will respect that and just keep it to myself. Seriously.
P.S. To those who mention that my post may have to do with a gripe that I may have because of losing or something, I can assure you that I win many more times than I lose. My problem has always been the inability to cash out. Has nothing to do with the casinos at all. After having quit my meds, I was easily able to cash out my last win of $400 too Peace.

 

[K2C]

MicroGaming I only suspect of steadily lowering the RTP.

For slots it would involve changing the reel layout. Lots of people, myself included successfully decomposed those layouts. There is a whole web site called Slot Beaters which has a bunch of those layouts listed. Are you saying all or some of them are now wrong? Can you point me to a specific MG slot, for which a layout was published someplace say 5 years ago, and you now believe it changed?

Well, unless you mean they added new slots with lower RTP. This may be possible, however the first example coming to my mind is Reel Gems / Hot Ink etc. group which has a 97.5% RTP on respin feature - among the highest returns they have. And those were added quite recently

 

[mathsboy1975]

It is just as foolish to say that casinos rely on the laws of probability without having any practical proof.

Are you being serious here? Not only do we have theoretical proof of house edge at casinos, the very fact that they are very successful profitable businesses is pretty good practical proof also.

 

[K2C]

Lots of members here actually believe this. For instance: https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...ode-vs-real-mode-discrepancies.61849/?t=61849

Well, yes, Playtech fun vs. Playtech Real is a whole different story. I too have some interesting evidence on this and may be I will post when I have more. But that's quite a different subject compared to the one OP raised.

 

[mathsboy1975]

For slots it would involve changing the reel layout. Lots of people, myself included successfully decomposed those layouts. There is a whole web site called Slot Beaters which has a bunch of those layouts listed. Are you saying all or some of them are now wrong? Can you point me to a specific slot, for which a layout was posted say 5 years ago, and you now believe it changed?

Well, unless you mean they added new slots with lower RTP. This may be possible, however the first example coming to my mind is Reel Gems / Hot Ink etc. group which has a 97.5% RTP on respin feature - among the highest returns they have. And those were added quite recently

You would not necessarily need to change the reel layout if you could change the weighting of the reel symbols. Given fixed reel layout it would be suicidal to change them and expect nobody to notice. Please note that this sounds like I am buying into this conspiracy theory which is not the case at all.

 

[Igor82]

Hi all. I did not just post and leave. I did something called "going to sleep" lol I have been playing online slots frequently now for over 3 years. I understand that this statement seems "trollish" but I can assure that I have no ill intent. I can back up my statement with what I believe is very strong practical video evidence. It is just as foolish to say that casinos rely on the laws of probability without having any practical proof. Just because they say so? Just because math geniuses (which some of you are) state that casinos must be following these rules because they are so absolute ? My intention here is to have an intelligent, mature discussion based on fact only. No biases, no wishful thinking, no egos. I believe that the evidence that I have, and my own studies can "prove" that the facts show otherwise. Why now? What do I hope to gain? Well, three weeks ago I decided to stop taking the large amounts of anti-depressants that I had been prescribed for the past 20 years. I now have motivation to do things. May seem trivial, but not to somebody who has experienced nothing but mental and physical numbness for 20 years!! So please, just listen to what I have to say and I will do the same. I respect everybody and have an open mind but I can't just ignore practical facts. For instance, if I showed you that you could join 30 casinos (you could not have played there before), play a specific game (won't mention it yet) and spin 10 times on each, as soon as you hit the first losing spin on a certain square (it's a board game bonus slot), the next 3 spins will be the exactly the same for all 30 casinos !!!, would you not admit that at least something was at least a little off with the 100% random theory? And is 30 casinos enough? How many would just say it was coincidence? I have tons of examples of things like this. If nobody is interested, I will respect that and just keep it to myself. Seriously.
P.S. To those who mention that my post may have to do with a gripe that I may have because of losing or something, I can assure you that I win many more times than I lose. My problem has always been the inability to cash out. Has nothing to do with the casinos at all. After having quit my meds, I was easily able to cash out my last win of $400 too Peace.

you do realise that with complexity of slots today, it is actually easier to design a slot based on RNG and define profit % you expect, then to code a source code that will remember and adjust payouts large and low (and within bonus rounds and multipliers, and wilds, and ....) based on massive previous input.

the sheer complexity it will take to design various cashouts pre-engineered basd on the payout table and aggregate take.. i mean.. no, just no.

here, read. Start from there. You cant discuss mathematics without knowing mathematics.

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that's your basic probability on the basis of finite number of opportunities versus total potential outcome.

Then this:

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- different types of RNG's and how they work.


And finally, this:

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basic slot design and logic.


Now, when you get to a place where you understand, perhaps not all, but enough to get the gist of it at least - you will undertand why there is absolutely no need to overcomplicate matters.

The general audience (players) balances each other out - some will win and then some will lose, and when it is all said and done the machine will take a designed percentage by paying 3,4,5% less than the probability of an event happening. Spins are individual and have no sense of ownership, past or future, however in vast aggregate across many spins (irrelevant of who is spinning) they balance out to take the margin %

whether you win this session or you lose this session has far more to do with luck (and if we are to be honest - variance) then RTP

Its pure math - and frankly, its quite beautiful.

Read up.

DISCLAIMER: this thread has the sign of being a time guzzler so i'll add my tinfoil hat to the contribution table and gracefully bow out here. There is plenty of material you can read that will show you the light however

 

[MiltonW]

you do realise that with complexity of slots today, it is actually easier to design a slot based on RNG and define profit % you expect, then to code a source code that will remember and adjust payouts large and low (and within bonus rounds and multipliers, and wilds, and ....) based on massive previous input.

the sheer complexity it will take to design various cashouts pre-engineered basd on the payout table and aggregate take.. i mean.. no, just no.

Ah, an objective opinion What is your response then to Old / Expired Link ?

 

[Igor82]

Ah, an objective opinion What is your response then to Old / Expired Link ?

You should probably read more of my posts before you sneer at my objectivity. I have no opinion about that article, it has nothing to do with mathematics - it has to do with an individual situation at a certain time and place.

It bears as much relevance as does the fact that Otters tend to keep their favourite rock in their tummy pouch for most of their lives (did you know that? It's amazing!)

You were provided an opportunity to actually learn about the games you play and how they work - the links are a really good guide.

if instead you wish to discuss us, the "crooks" of the industry - you wont find an opponent here.

Good luck with your agenda.

Best!

Igor

 

[MiltonW]

You should probably read more of my posts before you sneer at my objectivity. I have no opinion about that article, it has nothing to do with mathematics - it has to do with an individual situation at a certain time and place.

It bears as much relevance as does the fact that Otters tend to keep their favourite rock in their tummy pouch for most of their lives (did you know that? It's amazing!)

You were provided an opportunity to actually learn about the games you play and how they work - the links are a really good guide.

Igor

Obviously you are not objective. You can't be as a casino rep. And of course that article is relevant. A software developer admits there are fixes in all the games. Seems it is worth the trouble, instead of just using the true rtp.

And don't try to wow me with your math skills, I have a major in Math and Computer Science.

 

[Tirilej]

Obviously you are not objective. You can't be as a casino rep. And of course that article is relevant. A software developer admits there are fixes in all the games. Seems it is worth the trouble, instead of just using the true rtp.

And don't try to wow me with your math skills, I have a major in Math and Computer Science.

So 28 posts with complaints about casinos. You can't even be nice.
What is your real problem?

 

[dionysus]

Because he wrote for one software, it's true for all? So the drunk that says moonshine is best is correct because he's a drunk, the writer who says his works are the finest written is correct because he's a wordsmiith, and the disgruntled employee who says his boss fellates goats is correct because he worked there.

So, your software developer is right cuz he says so, but the other developers who say no, are wrong? Um...

 

[Igor82]

Obviously you are not objective. You can't be as a casino rep. And of course that article is relevant. A software developer admits there are fixes in all the games. Seems it is worth the trouble, instead of just using the true rtp.

And don't try to wow me with your math skills, I have a major in Math and Computer Science.

1) those were not skills i was trying to "wow" you with - it was Wikipedia for most part. you're making me giggle.

2) If you have a major in math, you really should think what you are writing through. You'll realise how obvious the answer is.

3) as for your article and it's validity: Where is the proof it happened? Where did it happen? Why weren't authorities involved at the analysts request even 2 years later? Why did the casino requesting the seal of fairness in the first place report the provider - if they are cheating player, they can be cheating the operator. Why did this not come out literally anywhere, and why does that article not show any clue and independent analysis?

Above is nothing but an article, even if true - which i don't dispute to be honest; and does not speak to the industry at large by along shot.

What is unfortunately obvious, however, is that you did not come for a open, honest and level-headed discussion as initially written. You need like-minded players with someone to blame for a bad stroke of luck.

Anyone bringing mathematical evidence to you for review (my mistake, i genuinely thought you were interested) will be discarded as it demystifies your illusion you obviously crave to be true.

It's a pity. Links are back there if you ever decide to check them out.

Take care

 

[MiltonW]

3) as for your article and it's validity: Where is the proof it happened? Where did it happen? Why weren't authorities involved at the analysts request even 2 years later? Why did the casino requesting the seal of fairness in the first place report the provider - if they are cheating player, they can be cheating the operator. Why did this not come out literally anywhere, and why does that article not show any clue and independent analysis?

If you had read the article:

There has been quite a bit of discussion on some gambling message boards about why I am not willing to disclose this software provider. I was hired by a casino to audit their software provider so that the casino could post the CFG seal. This relationship was not a public audit and was never intended to be public.

I was not hired by a government agency to conduct a public audit. I was not hired by some third-party to publicly investigate a suspected rogue software product. I was hired as a private business by a private business to audit another private business. CFG is not affiliated with any jurisdiction or regulatory agency and has no public disclosure obligation. This relationship and all findings were and are confidential. The only public information would have been permission to use the CFG seal, if it was awarded. It wasn’t. My recourse under the terms of the contract did not provide for a public remedy.

As far as the number of casinos that run this software, I did a quick Google search and found 14 casinos. I am not sure of the exact number of casinos that currently use this software.

Eliot Jacobson

 

[mathsboy1975]

Obviously you are not objective. You can't be as a casino rep. And of course that article is relevant. A software developer admits there are fixes in all the games. Seems it is worth the trouble, instead of just using the true rtp.

And don't try to wow me with your math skills, I have a major in Math and Computer Science.

To be honest, now you are starting to sound pretty unreasonable. You cannot take a pop at a guy who has been perfectly agreeable to you just because a) he is a casino rep and b) you don't agree with what he says.

Frankly, if you really do have a grounding in probability theory then your posts have not shown much evidence of it with what is now becoming a bit of a rant on your part. Whether you are right or wrong, you won't gather much support with that kind of dismissive attitude shown towards Igor. If you are trying to discredit the entire casino industry then the onus is on you to provide some evidence to support this. House edge is sufficient for casinos to make profit - we can prove this mathematically as I am sure you are aware with your "major in Math and Computer Science". Ascertaining that anything untoward is happening here requires proof - which you don't seem to have.

Anyway your attitude toward Igor has pretty much left me without enthusiasm for discussing this further so I am out of this thread now.

 

[Tirilej]

If you had read the article:

If you do a search in this forum you will find threads where you can discuss this and a little more information.

 

[MiltonW]

To be honest, now you are starting to sound pretty unreasonable. You cannot take a pop at a guy who has been perfectly agreeable to you just because a) he is a casino rep and b) you don't agree with what he says.

'Objective' is not a pejorative. You don't grade your own paper, a casino rep can not be objective.

 

[dionysus]

You do realize reps, owners, affiliates etc are players too with personal lives also looking for fair games and enjoying an evening out? Just as bartenders drink at other bars, employees at B and Ms play in other cities, and teachers do take classes. There's objectivity and informed insight.

 

[Igor82]

'Objective' is not a pejorative. You don't grade your own paper, a casino rep can not be objective.

Perhaps not, but a casino rep can be insightful - and if you are looking for a discussion as you initially stated, then any material that anyone brings to the table in a debate is admissible and should not be discarded without proper analysis.

In fact, a rep that is wiling to bite on a controversial thread is probably best equipped to carry this debate through. Had you shown any form of willingness of thinking and actually debating prior to outright dismissal, perhaps you'd be worth the time it takes to show you the other side of the coin, pun intended.

As for the article, there are many valid questions to be raised there, but as i said - it's a time guzzler, and a thread on its own.

Similarly to maths, it's time to bow out.

Sincerely, best of luck in your quest for debate.

 

[K2C]

You would not necessarily need to change the reel layout if you could change the weighting of the reel symbols. Given fixed reel layout it would be suicidal to change them and expect nobody to notice. Please note that this sounds like I am buying into this conspiracy theory which is not the case at all.

Please point me to the specific Microgaming slot which is "weighted" and I will verify it.

 

[dionysus]

I'm goiing to step out wiith a few other members. There's discussions, and then there's rants. I'm sure a mod or Bryan will pop in at some point to peek or participate, seeing as they promote all these 'rigged games'.

 

[K2C]

If you had read the article:

There has been quite a bit of discussion on some gambling message boards about why I am not willing to disclose this software provider. I was hired by a casino to audit their software provider so that the casino could post the CFG seal. This relationship was not a public audit and was never intended to be public.

I was not hired by a government agency to conduct a public audit. I was not hired by some third-party to publicly investigate a suspected rogue software product. I was hired as a private business by a private business to audit another private business. CFG is not affiliated with any jurisdiction or regulatory agency and has no public disclosure obligation. This relationship and all findings were and are confidential. The only public information would have been permission to use the CFG seal, if it was awarded. It wasn’t. My recourse under the terms of the contract did not provide for a public remedy.

As far as the number of casinos that run this software, I did a quick Google search and found 14 casinos. I am not sure of the exact number of casinos that currently use this software.

Eliot Jacobson

In this case it is not clear what point you are trying to make. That a crooked casino software can be written and was written? Nobody would argue with that.

If a software in question is run by 14 casinos, it's not a major provider to say the least. There are 126 companies writing casino games I am aware of (well, it depends on how you count, as they tend to merge and buy one another, but we can safely say there dozens of them). So among those there may be and probably are some crooks. What does it prove?

 

[catapultaudio]

I've been a software developer for 20 years. I've seen my share of slick company presentations, and it's all bull. We always have to code backdoors and 'special' features, to sweeten the software.

You do?? Give me some examples? And who are your clients? I've headed a team of developers for the past decade and haven't had a single request for any such shadiness from any client ever .. unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by 'backdoors' / 'special features' ...

 

[MiltonW]

You do?? Give me some examples? And who are your clients? I've headed a team of developers for the past decade and haven't had a single request for any such shadiness from any client ever .. unless I'm misunderstanding what you mean by 'backdoors' / 'special features' ...

For instance, we were able to eavesdrop on any mobile conversation in the Netherlands, I assure you that wasn't legal...
Then there are performance indicators etc, backdoor logins, the list is endless.

 

[quber]

How is a casino to know what the software can and cannot do? They just license it, and if they are legit, they won't go asking...

IF there is a 'switch' in the software and the Casino's don't know about it then what is the point of having it? If they haven't asked then they are a totally fair casino making a profit by using the RTP built into it and if they make a profit without using it then so can all the others, by not knowing they prove that it isn't needed.

You really have got yourself into a state where you can't look at this objectively as you have convinced yourself it's all rigged from one little article with nothing to substantiate it.(where the author states that most software and casinos are totally fair)

All the links posted through this thread have a lot more substance and reliability than that one you posted.

 

[MiltonW]

where the author states that most software and casinos are totally fair

Where does he do so? He writes:
It is simply not the case that every casino software company produces software that is capable of cheating. I know many companies with integrity. I know many companies that are not crooked. There are good guys out there.

Don't twist his words.

All the links posted through this thread have a lot more substance and reliability than that one you posted.

What links? And why are they more credible?. 'My' link is by a certification expert.

 

[quber]

'My' link is by a certification expert.

Which is about a snippet of an email from some unknown developer working for a company we don't know who are providing software for casinos we don't know. there is no information at all except the heresay of a couple of people. nothing in your link is able to be validated yet you are taking it to be gospel.