Double Up in Video Poker - do you do it?

[The Dude]

ATTENTION VIDEO POKER PLAYERS

When playing VP, do you play the "double or nothing" option at the end of a hand. If so, how often? And if so, why?

Do any players here have any tactics they'd like to share? (always black; or if the month has a "y" in it, pick red, etc.)

I always considered it a ploy to lose your winnings, but I was reminded that it has no house edge, so maybe it's not so bad after all.

Please take the poll.

 

[The Dude]

And maybe some of the math heads can explain the advantages/disadvantages using this option.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I have played it on the odd occasion, but not to double a BIG win.

I also use it on slots when I have almost bust out, and want to get rid of a few last pennies to zero out a bonus balance.

Although it has no house edge, it does not contribute to WR either, and many casinos view doubling as "bonus abuse", giving another reason to avoid it.

Double a Royal Flush - no chance.

 

[baldidiot]

In theory (disregarding bonus WR) it's one of the best bets you can make in a casino, right? But I just can't bring myself to do it - it just feels like a scam

There was a guy a few yeas ago would doubled up on VP until he made it into the millions (2, I think). I'll try and find the article...

 

[GamblersDen]

I'm a huge fan of Doubling Up. It is a bet that has no house edge in most casinos - I came across an online casino years ago that offered this feature but you lose if you tie the upcard... now that was a scam! I am a pretty conservative player and will usually double up the smaller wins once or twice, and on occassion a bigger bet. I once had 4 Aces on a Double Bonus Machine (5 coins pays out 800 coins) and was debating whether or not to double up for a good 30 seconds before wisely collecting my winnings

In truth, doubling up really depends on your playstyle - it overall reduces the house edge but significantly increases variance; you may not win as often if you double up aggresively but when you do it will be a nice payout. If you manage to double up five times in a row you can turn a 1:1 payout into a 32:1 payout which is fantastic, but you only have a little over 3% chance of succeeding in doing so

 

[BoyleCasino.com]

I'm by no means a maths whizz but I do understand why it's a good bet. You're effectively only ever risking your initial stake to win a large amount of cash. Most of us would have a big win and want to bank it, but there are some hardcore gamblers out there that want more, so go for the double up.

It comes down to what you're happy with I suppose. If you could double your life savings on the flip of a coin, would you take the gamble?

 

[GamblersDen]

It comes down to what you're happy with I suppose. If you could double your life savings on the flip of a coin, would you take the gamble?

I don't think that Bryan was asking if we double up our big wins, but in general if we do it . I agree that big wins only the lucky (or foolish) people take the risk, but if it comes down to it I would rather gamble my life savings on a 50/50 bet than on a bet with a house egde

 

[baldidiot]

It comes down to what you're happy with I suppose. If you could double your life savings on the flip of a coin, would you take the gamble?

Heck no!

Does anyone remember the idiot that sold everything (totalled about £75k) and went to vegas to put it on one spin on a roulette wheel:

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Sky also made a tv show about it.

 

[GamblersDen]

Ha!

I remember that... Must of had a mid-life crisis of sorts (at 32?!) that pushed him to do such a stupid thing.

 

[baldidiot]

Turns out he got his income from poker - you'd think he'd know better! Such poor bankroll management skills!

 

[KasinoKing]

I always use the Double Up feature when playing VP - but not on every win!

Bearing in mind that I usually play 50-hand power poker; If I win less than half my total bet I always try to double it to near my original stake. I don't double up if my win is higher than my stake.

My "System" is to always pick the Right-most card for the first double up, and in the next double, the position where the lowest card was in the previous one. If I have a bad run, I switch my first pick the the left-hand end.
All nonsense of course, because it's totally random... at least, I hope it is!

KK

 

[Stovetopp]

I always use the Double Up feature when playing VP - but not on every win!

Bearing in mind that I usually play 50-hand power poker; If I win less than half my total bet I always try to double it to near my original stake. I don't double up if my win is higher than my stake.


KK

The above statements makes absolutely no sense to me. LOL
You ALWAYS use the dble up but not on every win.. so you don't always, do you?
Nothing personal KK, I am a fan of yours. BUT I found it amusing and pondered it for a while . Maybe besides. I just woke up

At a live casino, I have seen guys dble up to nine times and have seen dbling $4000 RF twice Saw him win 22k one day and lost it all [plus another few grand the next day then wanted a loan from me lol

 

[Jasminebed]

I'm a chicken and don't double the big wins. I routinely double a 1x payout, usually twice, and 2x payouts once.

Playtech offers a "gamble half" on wins, so I will gamble midsized wins there.

 

[petro]

This is a topic that I am currently looking into myself.
I have managed to find out that it is very much to the player’s advantage to double up in particular scenarios.
It is essentially a side bet with a return of 100% so you’re not losing anything or gaining anything.

*If* you can accrue comps with the double up feature it means on those double up bets, it is essentially free comps.
*If* the double up feature can be used to meet the play through of a bonus, essentially you are meeting the play through at no cost.
Unfortunately, at most casinos you cannot accrue comps or meet play through with the double up feature.

If you base the games return on the total amount wagered compared to total amount won it *will* increase the return of any game that has a return lower than 100%.

For instance doubling up always on a 9/6 Jacks or Better will yield a return somewhere between 99.54%-100%.
But I am told it does not affect the expected loss. (This is where I become confused.)

The only real drawback is that it raises the games variance.

 

[GamblersDen]

For instance doubling up always on a 9/6 Jacks or Better will yield a return somewhere between 99.54%-100%.
But I am told it does not affect the expected loss. (This is where I become confused.)

The only real drawback is that it raises the games variance.

You seem to be spot on so I'm not sure what you're confused about

Disregarding whether or not doubling down counts for wagering or comp points, mathematically it makes sense to double up after each win. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Odds Bet in Craps, but it works similarly to the Double Up feature in VP. Let's say you have $15 you want to bet with in Craps. You can bet $15 on a Pass Line bert (1.41% house edge), or bet $5 on a Pass Line Bet(1.41% house edge) and $10 on an Odds Bet (0% house edge). Taking advantage of the 0% house edge bet you reduce the overall house edge to 0.61%. Now back to Video Poker:

Looking at that, it makes sense that Doubling Up does change expected loss - in the long run expected loss will go down because instead of playing with a 99.51% expected return it will be somewhere between 99.51% and 100% (the more you double down the closer it will be to 100%).

 

[petro]

...in the long run expected loss will go down..

If you are looking at expected loss as a percentage of the amount wagered, that’s true.
But that is not what ‘expected loss’ means.
Expected loss is from a static view point e.g. $100. This is what does not change.
At least, thats how it was explained to me.

 

[FourTeller]

Never.

 

[Jufo]

For instance doubling up always on a 9/6 Jacks or Better will yield a return somewhere between 99.54%-100%.
But I am told it does not affect the expected loss. (This is where I become confused.)

It does not affect the expected loss because a 100% bet doesn't increase expected loss. If you could ONLY play the double up game in video poker without having to play the base game, your expected loss would always remain unchanged at zero.

The only real drawback is that it raises the games variance.

Increased variance is not a drawback in negative expectation games. In fact variance is the only thing that makes it possible for you to get ahead. Imagine a game with zero variance which returns EXACTLY $0.99 on EVERY $1 spin. A decent return percentage (99%) but a zero chance to get ahead.

 

[H1_Roller]

I used to do it all the time at Casino On Net where, ironically (considering my luck there), their double or nothing on VP seemed totally fair and random.

It's the "select a higher card than the dealer" double or nothing gamble. I've doubled 40 and 80 coin wins all the way up to 640 and once I even got one to 1280.

If anything, it seemed to have an edge toward me rather than equal/toward the house.

Nowadays, on MG casinos, I will try the odd one. I say to myself (for example) I will "hit every gamble that involves 3 queens" meaning 3 of a kind, full house, and four of a kind. It's definitely a case of you win some, you lose some.

 

[Markus]

I use the Double Up feature very often because it is one of the few casino bets with no house edge or even a small player edge if comp points are credited for this bet.
It is also very usefull for bonus play to reach the targeted balance, unfortunately often times it is not allowed if bonus is in use.

 

[daveboz]

I'm not so sure about the 50/50 claim. I often see 3 cards other than the one I pulled at a number below the initial double up card. Rarely 50%. I think the bigger the win the higher odds to win a double.

 

[ergopro]

Don't use it that much anymore...years back thought it would make a difference which card you picked. The MG bug showing the balance after the double up before any card was picked, kinda took all the excitement away as it made no difference which card you chose. It was all eye candy.

 

[Sefmalmz]

I do it all the time playing pick 'em at CW

I have had bad streaks when i bust very quickly,but ive also done very well.I double up every single win,unless i hit a 4 of a kind or higher,then i will almost always take the winnings.It also depends on how much money i have,ill take a flush or full house sometimes. When im down to my last 5 bucks,i will go play Pick 'Em for 5 cents and i double my money half the time.On the flip side,ive burned through 50 bucks in less then 10 minutes,but thats why it's a gamble i suppose.

 

[H1_Roller]

I'm not so sure about the 50/50 claim. I often see 3 cards other than the one I pulled at a number below the initial double up card. Rarely 50%. I think the bigger the win the higher odds to win a double.

I've never seen any evidence that would support this claim. I'm not saying you're wrong (because I didn't write the code and so I can't be 100% certain) but I've seen plenty of occasions where I've taken the 'double or nothing' gamble on big wins (like four of a kind or even a straight flush), then the card I have to beat is, say, a 3, and all other cards are K, 10, 9 and Ace; I couldn't lose.

There are also times when I couldn't win, but that's the chance you take.

 

[Christoff]

Great post Bryan - I was playing Novomatic's American Poker 2 in Spain last week and I nearly always double up as it's fun and exciting.

I tend to double up the lower winning hands such as 2 Pair, 3 of a kind and flush/straight. I tend to chicken out when it's anything bigger like a full house or 4 of a kind.

Going back to Novomatic's American Poker 2, does anyone know if this is available online anywhere? I know the physical machine is very popular in Germany and Eastern Europe by the looks of it but I would love to play that actual version online.

 

[colly]

Very occasionally will double up on wins if jacks or better or 2 pair but never anything higher. Basically VP is part chance with a skill element using strategy- to me (and the maths guys can happily show me if wrong) doubling up changes the ER from the strategy play and increases the chance element percentage..

 

[petro]

Increased variance is not a drawback in negative expectation games.

In a practical sense I feel that low variance is in favour of the player.
Less time gambling & less money spent to see the expected return.

 

[Jufo]

In a practical sense I feel that low variance is in favour of the player.
Less time gambling & less money spent to see the expected return.

Most gamblers don't want to reach expected return because on negative expectation games it means leaving with less money than you started with. So variance = good, if the goal is to end up ahead.

 

[danlee]

i always double, sometimes up to 5 times

 

[BubbleG]

some time ago....

Used to double up like a nutta but I dont touch it anymore unless its my last draw, even then I will only double to get another draw in... In the early days I used to play JoB and soon realised I was getting MUCH more play and much better results not doubling. On occasion I would get some nice double up's but most of the time I would simply bust out going for 4/5/6 double ups without seeing hardly any cards in the main game. In JoB the streaks of small wins can easily add up to a couple of mega double up's over a session and lets face it the object of the game is always to hit the royal where the majority of the games return lies...

Most slots have a double up feature, but who uses that? Funny as this probably is a better bet than the slot itself but in the case of VP don't double and you are much more likely to hit big wins as you will see more cards and draw to more wins.

 

[BubbleG]

similar threads

lol id long forgot about this thread from 5 years ago https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/vp-power-poker-to-double-or-not-to-double.11068/

 

[UriahHeep]

If I win less than half my total bet I always try to double it to near my original stake. I don't double up if my win is higher than my stake.

KK

exactly the same I am doing.

 

[H1_Roller]

Tried some gambling on Ladbrokes today:

Played £100 on Ladbrokes' Jacks or Better today, and took on every double or nothing gamble, just to see what would happen.
I only hit each gamble once, even in the result of a tie. Here are the results...

Jacks Or Better Standard 1-hand
Bet £1.25

wp 1
tp 1
trip 1
straight X
wp X
wp X
wp X
tp X
wp (missed)
wp 1
tp X
tp X
wp 1
tp 1
tp 1
wp X
trip X
tp X
wp 1
wp 0
Flush X
tp 1
wp 1
wp X
wp X
wp 1
trip 1
trip 1
Straight 0
wp 1
wp 0
wp 1
wp 0
wp X
tp 1
wp X
wp 0
wp X
wp X
wp X
wp 1
Trip 1
tp X
wp X
wp 1
tp 1
Flush 1
tp 1
wp 0
wp 1
trip X
wp 1
wp X
tp 1
wp 1
tp X
wp 1
tp X
Straight X
wp 1
wp X
wp X
wp 1
trip 1
wp X
wp X
tp X
trip X
wp 1
wp 1
wp 1....
Flush X
tp 1
Straight X
Trip 1
tp 1
Flush 1
wp X
trip X
tp X
wp X
Straight X
wp 0
wp 1
Flush 1
wp X
trip 1
trip X
wp 1
wp 1
trip 1
tp 1
wp 1
house 1
wp 1
wp 1
wp1
trip 1
tp X
tp X
tp X
house X
tp 1
trip X
tp X
Straight X
tp 0
wp X
trip 1
trip X
tp 1
wp 1
wp X
tp 1
wp 1
wp 1
wp 1
wp 1
Straight X
wp 1
trip 1
wp 1
tp 1
flush X
wp X
trip 1
tp X
wp X
wp X
wp 1
wp X
wp X
wp X
tp X
trip 3's X
wp 0
trip 1
wp X
tp X
wp 0
wp X
wp X

Hands played: 349
Winning hands: 142
Losing hands: 207
Gamble successes: 66
Gamble losses: 65
Gamble ties: 10
Missed gambles: 1

Gamble Breakdown:



Winning Pair (74 total) w/l/t: 34/31/8 (1 missed)
Total won: £42.50
Total lost: £38.75
Profit/Loss: + £3.75

Two Pair (32 total) w/l/t: 15/16/1
Total won: £37.50
Total lost: £40
Profit/Loss: - £2.50

Three of a kind (21 total) w/l/t: 13/8/0
Total won: £48.75
Total lost: £30
Profit/Loss: + £18.75

Straight (7 total) w/l/t: 0/6/1
Total won: £0
Total lost: £30
Profit/Loss: - £30

Flush (6 total) w/l/t: 3/3/0
Total won: £22.50
Total lost: £22.50
Profit/Loss: EVEN

Full House (2 total) w/l/t: 1/1/0
Total won: £11.25
Total lost: £11.25
Profit/Loss: EVEN





Biggest win (pre-gamble): £11.25 (9x bet)
Biggest win (post-gamble): £22.50 (18x bet)
Money won in gambles: £162.50
Money lost in gambles: £172.50
Difference: Overall loss of £10

Money lost at this point (actual casino credits): £100

Fairly self-explanatory, but if in doubt the code is:

wp = winning pair
tp = two pair
trip = 3 of a kind
straight, flush and house are obvious.

1 = gamble won
X = gamble lost
0 = Tie

I also accidentally collected one of the gambles (didn't see it in time).
Before totting up the scores I was convinced I had lost far more than I had won. I figured I had lost 'all' the big hands and half of the rest of them but there is only a difference of £10 overall. For a £1.25 bet and 142 winning hands (141 of which were gambled), that really isn't bad at all and goes to show that Ladbrokes' video poker gamble feature does seem fairly evenly balanced.

I'm going to try it again soon, but (based on my results) only gamble winning pairs, two pair and three of a kind wins.

PS - I always picked the middle card. I thought all things being equal it wouldn't (shouldn't) matter which card I pick.

 

[H1_Roller]

Another attempt, same casino, same game, slightly different strategy.

This time I've tried to make it easier to read by including the result of every hand for 100 goes.

Jacks or Better (standard 1 hand)

Credits: £125 Bet: £1.25

Gamble all wp, 2p and trip. nh = No hand
Collect all other hands. 100 hands to play.


1 wp X
2 nh
3 wp Y
4 nh
5 wp X
6 trip Y
7 nh
8 2p Y
9 flush C
10 wp X
11 nh
12 wp X
13 wp X
14 nh
15 nh
16 wp X
17 2p Y
18 wp X
19 nh
20 nh
21 wp Y
22 nh
23 nh
24 2p Y
25 nh

26 trip O
27 wp X
28 2p Y
29 nh
30 wp Y
31 Straight C
32 Straight C
33 2p Y
34 nh
35 nh
36 nh
37 2p X
38 nh
39 wp X
40 nh
41 nh
42 nh
43 nh
44 nh
45 trip Y
46 nh
47 nh
48 nh
49 nh
50 2p Y

51 wp X
52 2p X
53 wp X
54 nh
55 2p Y
56 nh
57 nh
58 wp Y
59 2p X
60 nh
61 quad C
62 wp X
63 nh
64 nh
65 wp X
66 nh
67 2p O
68 nh
69 wp X
70 nh
71 nh
72 2p X
73 nh
74 nh
75 nh

76 nh
77 nh
78 nh
79 wp Y
80 flush C
81 2p X
82 nh
83 nh
84 nh
85 nh
86 wp Y
87 2p X
88 flush C
89 nh
90 nh
91 nh
92 nh
93 nh
94 2p Y
95 nh
96 wp X
97 nh
98 nh
99 wp X
100 wp X

16 wins, 23 losses, 2 ties and collected 6 winning hands.
After 100 hands playing like this I was actually up £15 with a balance of £140, but...


Notice that after each decent win(s), I suffered a big downswing:

1st quarter of hands: Got my first decent hand (flush), then put nothing
into the bank until 8 hands later.

2nd quarter of hands: The 2 straights in a row then two pair,
followed by virtually nothing for 12 hands.

3rd quarter of hands: Four of a kind, and then gained nothing for 18 hands
(almost the full value of the poker lost).

4th quarter of hands: Two flushes collected (£7.50 each, or six hands)
but then nothing until the sixth go afterwards each time, losing the full
value of the flush.

I'm only doing this for the sake of interest. Read into it what you will

 

[H1_Roller]

I was playing VP at Casino Euro earlier and decided to take the double up gamble on most of my wins.

[In case you didn't know] This one is different to MG casinos. You pick [next card] Red/Black, or a specific suit. I won over €100 in next to no time (betting €1 per hand), continually picking the right colour.

I felt as though I was being led into a false sense of security though, because surely it shouldn't/couldn't be that easy? I even gambled a four of a kind on Joker Poker (€15) and picked correctly. I was quite chuffed with myself.

Naturally though, being an idiot, I went back to video slots and lost the lot.