Dear CM, why do you help APs?

[SuperSense]

I see in many places on the casinomeister site that CM helps, defends, and protects AP. My question is why are you so kind to these people?

APs are a cancer to both normal players and your site. From your perspective, you as an affiliate, affiliates are paid based on a percentage of the total amount of money the casino makes from its referred players in a month, is that right? So one AP, with their math skills and manipulation can easily wipe out 5-10 regular player's income for you as an affiliate. They are a cancer to you and significantly hurts your income as an affiliate. We all know it takes time, money, and resources to successfully run a site like casinomiester. I don't want to be seeing AP's ruin that for everyone.

Secondly, APs are a cancer to us honest players as well. APs cause casinos to offer worse bonuses than they would if APs aren't around, more FU terms, and more accidental punishment of innocent honest players. Without APs, we would all receive much better treatment from casinos, better bonuses, and much less likely to get accidentally punished due to suspicions of bonus abuse.

APs are also much more likely to be cheats and frauds. Nobody would create 20 accounts at a casino unless they seriously think they have a way of beating the casino. It doesn't even make sense for a multi-account fraudster to not be an AP. And even if they are not technically cheating by the rules there is no doubt casinos are much tougher on APs and causes much more problems such as confiscation to APs than they do to honest players. I'm willing to predict, outside of rogue refusal to pay and slow pay due to bank limitations, a big percentage of complaints are APs that got confiscated by the casino.

So even if they are not cheating, casinos hate APs and as a result you have to waste your time dealing with many complaints from APs. You should not pay the price for APs making themselves hated by the casino. Nobody should.

Do APs appreciate all the hard work you're doing from them, despite they hurt you like a pain in the ass? No, from what I understand, you are regarded poorly in the AP forums like beatingbonuses and hundresprecentgambling. They say you're corrupt, sides with casinos for the affiliate paycheck, etc. After all these hard work, not only no "thank you" but all this insults to you, why do you continue to help APs?

APs are just disgusting, dishonest people. I once met an AP in real life who insisted card counting was not cheating and gave so much bullshit reasoning to why that is. Hello, wake up sir, ask anyone around you if card counting is cheating, everyone will say yes. eCogra recently declared AP to be fraudulent (read the full statement in berevek7 vs fortune lounge). Is it time that casinomeister as well, declare AP to be officially fraudulent?

For the rest of you readers, Like/Thank my post if you also believe APs need to be gone for good.

 

[paul7388]

i agree with some of what you say about APs . But casinomeister doesn't condone or support them. What happens is that a player makes a complaint about a casino and until its proven that they cheated or tried to defraud then casinomeister will investigate and try to help them as its not known if the player is telling the truth or not. Its like in court you are supposedly innocent until proven guilty. But if the complainant is found to have lied and has really cheated the casino then they will be barred and kicked to touch. The Beravek case is different as many members still believe hes not really done much wrong as the terms he abused were very vague so some believe he should have got paid. And as he never lied or made a false complaint he will still be a member as he never came on and made up his story and was honest about what happened from the beginning.

 

[rockycatt]

ok rookie question whats an A P

 

[JGslots]

You REALLY do not like AP's do you? lol.

My personal opinion is that I agree with you with regards to having multiple accounts. But I have little sympathy if the casino lets this happen, they need better checks if they want to combat this. If the casino offers a bonus and you adhere to the conditions of that bonus then whats the issue with AP? I don't like the way a casino can bonus ban people. If I want to play at a casino where a bonus is offered then I will play. If I don't want to make a cash deposit and and just play using a bonus then that's up to me, after-all I'm risking my bankroll and the general idea on both sides is to increase playtime and increasing the risk with the often high wagering requirement.


Some casino's thinks they should win all the time. Why cant they understand EVERYONE is playing to win. Its gambling! For me its all about the fun and trying to win. Am I an AP? Ill play high variance kit for that big hit and then purposely play low variance/risk games to try and hit wagering (don't most people?) Its common sense, but at the same time its still a gamble as we all know even the low variance slots can have massive dead patches

 

[PaaskeDenmark]

ok rookie question whats an A P

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[bigjohn]

I see in many places on the casinomeister site that CM helps, defends, and protects AP. My question is why are you so kind to these people?

APs are a cancer to both normal players and your site. From your perspective, you as an affiliate, affiliates are paid based on a percentage of the total amount of money the casino makes from its referred players in a month, is that right? So one AP, with their math skills and manipulation can easily wipe out 5-10 regular player's income for you as an affiliate. They are a cancer to you and significantly hurts your income as an affiliate. We all know it takes time, money, and resources to successfully run a site like casinomiester. I don't want to be seeing AP's ruin that for everyone.

Secondly, APs are a cancer to us honest players as well. APs cause casinos to offer worse bonuses than they would if APs aren't around, more FU terms, and more accidental punishment of innocent honest players. Without APs, we would all receive much better treatment from casinos, better bonuses, and much less likely to get accidentally punished due to suspicions of bonus abuse.

APs are also much more likely to be cheats and frauds. Nobody would create 20 accounts at a casino unless they seriously think they have a way of beating the casino. It doesn't even make sense for a multi-account fraudster to not be an AP. And even if they are not technically cheating by the rules there is no doubt casinos are much tougher on APs and causes much more problems such as confiscation to APs than they do to honest players. I'm willing to predict, outside of rogue refusal to pay and slow pay due to bank limitations, a big percentage of complaints are APs that got confiscated by the casino.

So even if they are not cheating, casinos hate APs and as a result you have to waste your time dealing with many complaints from APs. You should not pay the price for APs making themselves hated by the casino. Nobody should.

Do APs appreciate all the hard work you're doing from them, despite they hurt you like a pain in the ass? No, from what I understand, you are regarded poorly in the AP forums like beatingbonuses and hundresprecentgambling. They say you're corrupt, sides with casinos for the affiliate paycheck, etc. After all these hard work, not only no "thank you" but all this insults to you, why do you continue to help APs?

APs are just disgusting, dishonest people. I once met an AP in real life who insisted card counting was not cheating and gave so much bullshit reasoning to why that is. Hello, wake up sir, ask anyone around you if card counting is cheating, everyone will say yes. eCogra recently declared AP to be fraudulent (read the full statement in berevek7 vs fortune lounge). Is it time that casinomeister as well, declare AP to be officially fraudulent?

For the rest of you readers, Like/Thank my post if you also believe APs need to be gone for good.

I think you are confusing APs with cheats and fraudsters.

It is definitely very possible to be an advantaged player without cheating anybody.

 

[dunover]

AP is not illegal. Nor is card counting which is simply AP in another form. Gambling providers need to make a profit, therefore don't accept either practice. Fair enough. ECOGRA can say whatever they like, but they cannot make AP illegal/fraudulent, that's the domain of the legislature or courts. In fact courts in the UK cleared a gang of Rumanians using devices at London casinos to gain the edge on roulette and make 350,000 pounds, and ruled they keep the money.
What is fraudulent is using false details to multi-account AP.

CM doesn't encourage it, go through the forum and look at tens of posts from myself, Nifty etc. All that CM insists upon is that casinos have fair, precise and specific-as-possible terms to prevent AP. CM will also stand for those falsely accused of AP, or those who may have AP'd but haven't broken a specific term but merely been accused under a vague term, or not had deposits refunded.

CM sides not with casinos nor the PAB'er but with whichever one on balance has behaved fairly. If CM is so poorly regarded on 'other forums' why do you join?

In fact CM continues to try and have accredited sites set SPECIFIC terms to end all the PABs and disputes created by AP, or alleged AP.

 

[JGslots]

AP is not illegal. Nor is card counting which is simply AP in another form. Gambling providers need to make a profit, therefore don't accept either practice. Fair enough. ECOGRA can say whatever they like, but they cannot make AP illegal/fraudulent, that's the domain of the legislature or courts. In fact courts in the UK cleared a gang of Rumanians using devices at London casinos to gain the edge on roulette and make 350,000 pounds, and ruled they keep the money.
What is fraudulent is using false details to multi-account AP.

CM doesn't encourage it, go through the forum and look at tens of posts from myself, Nifty etc. All that CM insists upon is that casinos have fair, precise and specific-as-possible terms to prevent AP. CM will also stand for those falsely accused of AP, or those who may have AP'd but haven't broken a specific term but merely been accused under a vague term, or not had deposits refunded.

In fact CM continues to try and have accredited sites set SPECIFIC terms to end all the PABs and disputes created by AP, or alleged AP.

This is why its best to avoid them rogues and play at the accredited guys isn't it?

 

[SuperSense]

Some casino's thinks they should win all the time. Why cant they understand EVERYONE is playing to win. Its gambling! For me its all about the fun and trying to win. Am I an AP? Ill play high variance kit for that big hit and then purposely play low variance/risk games to try and hit wagering (don't most people?) Its common sense, but at the same time its still a gamble as we all know even the low variance slots can have massive dead patches

ok rookie question whats an A P

If you superstitiously or intuitively believe you can win you are not an AP.

If you mathematically know your plays are +EV you are an AP.

 

[dunover]

If you superstitiously or intuitively believe you can win you are not an AP.

If you mathematically know your plays are +EV you are an AP.

Unfortunately that's not how casinos see it. Many bonuses 'abused' are EV- but abused in collusion. And what if (like JPP used to and 3Dice still do) the bonus is EV+ in the first place - according to your reasoning every player who played a penny of the bonus would be an 'AP'.

Lastly, your example may apply to certain roulette/BJ play on a bonus, but slot players get accused of it too - a RNG game like a 95% slot on an EV- bonus per se cannot technically be AP'd. But what the depositor does is make high value spins 'gambling' for a quick hit then piddles the rest of the WR out on small stakes.

PS something seems familiar about the OP, can't put my finger on it at the mo....

 

[The Dude]

Actually, card counting is not fraud. Go to Vegas and you'll find that they may not like card counting, there is nothing illegal about it. In fact, a couple of years ago I had an unofficial tour of a Vegas casino by an advantage player who pointed out how advantage play was done, and how teams of players can cause a massive dent in the casino's profits. As long as they didn't use electronics, or anything else expressively forbidden, the casinos were fair game.

As for the online version, there is a distinct difference between advantage play and fraud. The problem is that many APs do indeed commit fraud, but there are those who don't. I feel that APs are needed on the playing field to keep casinos in check. Even though many casinos don't like them, and at times I don't like what they do since they really spoil the generosity of a casino which affects regular players, they are a necessary evil

Fraudsters are not a necessary evil; they are simply people who feel that cheating is acceptable. It's unethical, most times illegal, and when we expose it, we boot these members and at times warn casino operators.

I don't ban APs from using the PAB service since it's for all members. If it turns out that it's being abused, perhaps we'll limit the amount of PABs from bona fide APs. But we haven't had to deal with that yet since people are going to complain either to us or in the public fora; I'd rather try and help the guy (or gal) out. Besides, it gives Max something to do.

As for being an affiliate, I've never considered myself or the site as an affiliate site. For 16 years, Casinomeister has followed its mission statement: " Our mission at Casinomeister is to provide solid information; information that enables players to make smart choices."

APs are not fraudsters. It's the fraudsters, not APs, that are the bane of the industry.

The Casinomeister philosophy and mission statement: there is a section on advantage players here: https://www.casinomeister.com/about-us/philosophy/

 

[SuperSense]

Actually, card counting is not fraud. Go to Vegas and you'll find that they may not like card counting, there is nothing illegal about it. In fact, a couple of years ago I had an unofficial tour of a Vegas casino by an advantage player who pointed out how advantage play was done, and how teams of players can cause a massive dent in the casino's profits. As long as they didn't use electronics, or anything else expressively forbidden, the casinos were fair game.

As for the online version, there is a distinct difference between advantage play and fraud. The problem is that many APs do indeed commit fraud, but there are those who don't. I feel that APs are needed on the playing field to keep casinos in check. Even though many casinos don't like them, and at times I don't like what they do since they really spoil the generosity of a casino which affects regular players, they are a necessary evil

Fraudsters are not a necessary evil; they are simply people who feel that cheating is acceptable. It's unethical, most times illegal, and when we expose it, we boot these members and at times warn casino operators.

I don't ban APs from using the PAB service since it's for all members. If it turns out that it's being abused, perhaps we'll limit the amount of PABs from bona fide APs. But we haven't had to deal with that yet since people are going to complain either to us or in the public fora; I'd rather try and help the guy (or gal) out. Besides, it gives Max something to do.

As for being an affiliate, I've never considered myself or the site as an affiliate site. For 16 years, Casinomeister has followed its mission statement: " Our mission at Casinomeister is to provide solid information; information that enables players to make smart choices."

APs are not fraudsters. It's the fraudsters, not APs, that are the bane of the industry.

The Casinomeister philosophy and mission statement: there is a section on advantage players here: https://www.casinomeister.com/about-us/philosophy/

Thanks for the answer. I do understand the difference between AP and fraud. You are right in pointing out they often spoil the generosity of the casinos, but what I want to understand is what do you mean by "necessary evil"? If APs are gone, I would imagine the online gambling experience would be much better for everyone. So what is this "check" you were referring to?

My guess is very few APs such as michael shackelford (wizard of odds) are able to make sure that the casino softwares are fair and spot rigged softwares with the "keen math eye" that APs tend to have. Sure, APs will be able to notice software nonrandomless much easier than casual players, but APs who publish their findings like wizard of odds is quite rare. most of them only gamble for their own profit.

 

[jshort]

If APs are gone, I would imagine the online gambling experience would be much better for everyone. So what is this "check" you were referring to?

Much better for everyone?

APers can indirectly help online casinos clarify or define their sometimes vague T&Cs or position in certain matters as APers have a tendency to push the limits of the casino rules (particularly with regards to bonuses or promotions).

I like to think I was an online AP player, then I made the smartest financial choice a casino AP can make; I quite gambling

 

[maxd]

You are right in pointing out they often spoil the generosity of the casinos, but what I want to understand is what do you mean by "necessary evil"?

APs are like bacteria, they're not "evil" they're just looking for a good place to find a meal and breed (so to speak). IMO the "service" they provide is basically housekeeping: they find the soft bits of the casinos, the exposed underbelly, the ill-conceived and/or poorly executed offering, the unprotected honey-pots.

Is this bad or wrong? I'd say no more so than sunburn or mosquito bites: protect yourself or suffer the consequences. Annoying maybe, possibly even harmful but also a fact of life. Open a casino and you attract the APs, simple as that. No amount of huffing and puffing is going to change the basic equation of "money on offer = some people wanting to get as much of it as they can".

As to "the generosity of casinos" I'd have to say that's a contradiction in terms. It's right up there with "the generosity of bankers": ain't no such thing. People open and run casinos to make money, not friends. Any "generosity" on offer is a bit of bait on the end of a fishing line. Mind the hook. Want the bait and not the hook? Ah, now you are an AP!

 

[chayton]

There's probably quite a difference in the definition of advantage play (or bonus abuse) depending on whether or not it's coming from the player or if it's coming from the casino. If you ask an advantage player to define advantage play they'll probably say "Someone who takes a bonus and wins" and the casinos probably have a 20 page document.

Personally I think that the casinos bring this on themselves - practically every casino out there advertises their bonuses and free money more than anything else, so of course they're going to attract APs. But then again, if a new casino opened and it was awesome with superfast payouts and high RTP and great support and every game you could possibly want on a completely stable platform, but they didn't offer any SUB or bonuses or freebies, how many players would they get?

How many people would bail on a casino they now play faithfully if the casino stopped giving bonuses? Look how many people decide to just close their account when they get bonus banned.

Actually that's an interesting thing....maybe I'll do a poll.

 

[vinylweatherman]

If AP was banned, then so should "advantage marketing". Most companies push the boundaries as to what is acceptable advertising, and what is not. It keeps the Advertising Standards Authority busy, and helps hone marketing and consumer protection law. The recent update expressly forbade the "bait and switch" marketing tactic, as it was rather difficult to police using other aspects of the code. The aim is that advertising should give a fair and balanced view of the product and service on offer, it's scope and limitations, cost, and the key terms of use. If AP is to be considered fraud, then companies and their directors should face a criminal prosecution for every marketing effort that misleads customers.

Card counters simply use their own brains, and play the game of Blackjack according to the rules. It becomes cheating when they start using concealed computers rather than their own ability to keep the count and work out the best bet. In the UK, you CAN get away with using concealed electronics provided they do not alter the outcome of the game. I believe the case where the court ruled in favour of the AP team was where they used a laser measuring device and concealed computer to predict where the ball would land to the nearest quadrant on the wheel, and which bet to place to cover it. This was enough accuracy to beat the house. The casino lost because the laser only observed the ball, it didn't interact with it nor change it's path. The loophole was that bets were still taken after the ball was released, and only closed when the ball had made a couple of revolutions on the wheel. This was enough time for the electronics to calculate the bet, and the player to place the chips. To close this loophole, the casinos now close the table to bets BEFORE the ball is released.

It's the same with the "pro" fruit machine players. Use only the buttons provided to beat the machine, and they can't touch you other than to throw you out. Drill a hole in the side for tampering, use fake notes or coins because the acceptor is easily fooled, and you CAN be charged with a criminal offence. You can also face charges if you collude with a programmer to insert and use a coded "back door" in a game. It's pretty similar to Vegas, except that it's "coin counting" rather than "card counting", and working out whether the machine is paying below it's RTP when others are playing, and knowing that as a compensated game, the software will want to level things out by paying well above RTP for a short burst, often known as a "streak" or a "dump". If you can judge when the adjustment "streak" is going to hit, and get on the machine to play for it, it is possible to make a profit WITHOUT taking a bonus.

 

[Mousey]

As the others were saying, if there were no APs, I dare say that casino T&Cs would be even messier quagmire for all of us than they are right now. Having a company secretary toss up a scramble of WR & terms in broken English is pretty much a thing of the past. If the casino is going to hold players to T&C and its finer points, then we also have the right to hold the casino to their own terms.

Operators must know their product and their customer. And the person saddled with designing and approving promotions/bonuses and the terms MUST be better at math and probabilities than the average Joe. (what was the casino that wouldn't pay players that won on a big promo because too many players were actually winning?? They'd not done their homework. sheesh... I can't think... not enough coffee - I just woke up.)

If the player abides by the T&C, then the casino must abide by those same rules. If the casino simply doesn't like the way a player plays, pay the player then close his/her account.

 

[skiny]

I think it's pretty well known by now that I don't think advantage play in itself is evil even though I don't participate in it. People gamble to win money and I can safely say it's pretty damn hard to win money playing online slot games regardless of how you play.

The deposit bonuses offered by most casinos might let you spin longer but most of the ones that I've taken the time to do the math on actually decrease your chances of winning theoretically. This is because they don't just let you spin longer, they force you to spin longer and with a TRTP of less than 100%, the longer you spin the more likely you are to go broke.

If you don't want to decrease your chances of winning, this leaves you two options. Don't take the bonus or find a way to increase your odds. In my opinion, if we can find ways to increase our odds there's no reason the casino's can't find the same ways and take steps to keep the odds in their favour.

That's the key statement. "Keeping the odds in their favour." This is done fairly by keeping the player spinning long enough to let the TRTP do it's work. That's the only fair way for a casino to earn money. This should be done by only allowing players to play specific games and only allowing players to bet specific amounts. Any other method is either lazy or unethical. Casinos that can't figure out how to do this simply need to put a couple of savvy APs on the payroll and let them test their bonus offers. I've said before, if you can't figure out how to set up your terms and conditions, hire someone who can.

Now it's pretty obvious why casinos would discourage advantage play. They're in the business of taking your money and if you can find ways to stop that from happening, they go out of business. So why should other players or Casinomeister condone or even help some of these players get paid? Well, for one thing they're not all cheating. Some of them actually manage to stay within the casino's terms and conditions and come out ahead. If this is the case they need to get paid regardless of how they managed to do it. Casino's can't simply be allowed to say "we don't like the way you played so we're not paying you." If that's the case then nobody is safe.

What it all boils down to is forming a set of terms and conditions that are easy to understand and specific about the rules. This is what Casinomeister and all it's members should be advocating and if a casino can't do this and someone takes advantage of it the blame lies on the casino. Anyone who plays within the terms and conditions has to be paid and the terms and conditions cannot be open to interpretation. It's just that simple.

Every day on the way to work I pass several signs on the side of the road. Some say MAX 100 km/h some say MAX 60 km/h. None of them just say "Don't drive too fast." They're a pretty obvious reason for this. I just don't understand why that reason isn't as obvious when the rules are written for a casino.

 

[maxd]

I just don't understand why that reason isn't as obvious when the rules are written for a casino.

Leverage, or the lack thereof.

 

[vinylweatherman]

One aspect of this is the sheer laziness (or deliberate trap setting) that we experience.

1) The big print for a bonus offer will often use illustrations or descriptions of games that cannot actually be played with the bonus in question. It might say "200% slots bonus", and then advertise all the big progressive jackpots that are for the taking, yet there would be a "no progressives" clause in the terms, which from the players' point of view makes no sense at all!

2) In 2014, we still have software that will accept an invalid bet, produce the outcome, and settle the bet, and let the punter carry on like this for many thousands of bets. In a land casino, the dealer or croupier will immediately reject an invalid bet. If it is allowed to stand, then the casino is deemed to have accepted the bet, and therefore must pay out (although the dealer might get a reprimand for being so dozy). The software should act as the virtual dealer, rejecting invalid bets straight away. It isn't that hard to code compared with the complex game engines we now have. Not coding such a "virtual dealer" check also makes it appear that the reason is not an inability to code, but a desire to leave a pitfall for the unwary player so that if they win, their bets can be voided retrospectively.

3) The fake "personalised offer". Rogue marketing at it's best. Coming direct from the casino, quoting your account number as well as your name, there is no way even a smart player would think it is clever spam from an affiliate. Reading the terms doesn't help either, as that's not the problem, the problem is that the offer is not valid for the recipient, but they can't know that, especially when the software then allows them to claim it. The dodgy casino will then void the winnings because the "email was sent in error", even though this is THEIR fault, not the players. This should be easy to prevent by making sure that the mailing database communicates with the player database, and only fires off the emails to players who have the offer set for them. If the casino screws up, they should accept the blame and pay the player (as the reputable casinos would and do).


If the software was robust enough to ensure that invalid bets could not be placed, it would protect the casino from AP. The aspect of "nannying" would be a by product, but we all get "nannied" in a land casino in any case because the slot machines only accept the bets programmed into them, the dealers will not accept a bet greater or less than the table limits, and the player rewards will only work in the marked games programmed to accept them.

Many APs work on the theory that their invalid bets won't get noticed before they get paid, or that if noticed, they can charm their way past the suspicion this causes in the hope that they will still get paid.

The job of the AP would be much harder if they just couldn't slip an "Advantage Bet" past the software gatekeeper. They may find that the only type of AP that still works is what we call fraud, such as using multiple accounts to get the most out of things like no deposit free chips, or deposit offers that can become +EV if played over many accounts despite the attentions of the software gatekeeper.

Employing APs as "poacher turned gamekeeper" would be a great idea, and an idea that is common in many industries. Computer security companies employ people with the "dark skills" to try their best to penetrate their measures to steal some data, or wreak havoc, with their systems. When they succeed, the company learns of a security hole it needs to patch, leading to an even better product. Stores even test their security by sending in "shoplifters" to see how good their security are at spotting them before they can get away.

 

[dizze]

I see in many places on the casinomeister site that CM helps, defends, and protects AP. My question is why are you so kind to these people?

APs are a cancer to both normal players and your site. From your perspective, you as an affiliate, affiliates are paid based on a percentage of the total amount of money the casino makes from its referred players in a month, is that right? So one AP, with their math skills and manipulation can easily wipe out 5-10 regular player's income for you as an affiliate. They are a cancer to you and significantly hurts your income as an affiliate. We all know it takes time, money, and resources to successfully run a site like casinomiester. I don't want to be seeing AP's ruin that for everyone.

Secondly, APs are a cancer to us honest players as well. APs cause casinos to offer worse bonuses than they would if APs aren't around, more FU terms, and more accidental punishment of innocent honest players. Without APs, we would all receive much better treatment from casinos, better bonuses, and much less likely to get accidentally punished due to suspicions of bonus abuse.

APs are also much more likely to be cheats and frauds. Nobody would create 20 accounts at a casino unless they seriously think they have a way of beating the casino. It doesn't even make sense for a multi-account fraudster to not be an AP. And even if they are not technically cheating by the rules there is no doubt casinos are much tougher on APs and causes much more problems such as confiscation to APs than they do to honest players. I'm willing to predict, outside of rogue refusal to pay and slow pay due to bank limitations, a big percentage of complaints are APs that got confiscated by the casino.

So even if they are not cheating, casinos hate APs and as a result you have to waste your time dealing with many complaints from APs. You should not pay the price for APs making themselves hated by the casino. Nobody should.

Do APs appreciate all the hard work you're doing from them, despite they hurt you like a pain in the ass? No, from what I understand, you are regarded poorly in the AP forums like beatingbonuses and hundresprecentgambling. They say you're corrupt, sides with casinos for the affiliate paycheck, etc. After all these hard work, not only no "thank you" but all this insults to you, why do you continue to help APs?

APs are just disgusting, dishonest people. I once met an AP in real life who insisted card counting was not cheating and gave so much bullshit reasoning to why that is. Hello, wake up sir, ask anyone around you if card counting is cheating, everyone will say yes. eCogra recently declared AP to be fraudulent (read the full statement in berevek7 vs fortune lounge). Is it time that casinomeister as well, declare AP to be officially fraudulent?

For the rest of you readers, Like/Thank my post if you also believe APs need to be gone for good.

i think people who complain like you are the cancer, always annoy

There is NO SUCH DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN AP AND A NORMAL PLAYER

Get that through your head!

Its like tax avoidance, you have a moral right to maximise your returns.


Should casinos put a sign on their websites saying "IDIOTS ONLY", "DO NOT PLAY IF YOU HAVE PASSED YOUR MATHS G

 

[catapultaudio]

Hello, wake up sir, ask anyone around you if card counting is cheating, everyone will say yes.

They would....? Does ANYBODY on this forum agree with this statement? I'd be really disappointed if so, isn't CHEATING at a casino game illegal in most countries? I've never heard of anybody being arrested for counting.

Sure, the casinos don't like it, but of course they don't - it reduces (or in some cases eliminates) the house advantage in this game. The casinos have the right to eject counters of prevent them playing Blackjack in their casino, which is their right. A player who is counting is simply using their brain to swing the odds of the game in their favour. It requires training, skill, a whole lot of effort, AND a sufficient bankroll to make it worthwhile.. and it STILL does not GUARANTEE you will walk away a winner at the end of every session. A 'cheat' is more often than not a shortcut that lessens the degree of time, effort and/or skill required to achieve a positive result, a description that does not tally well with card counting in my opinion.

Is there any other reason for your obvious dislike of card counters, and advantage players in general, other than your belief that they are responsible for reducing the comps you receive from casinos? I can't help but feel there must be a little more to it?

 

[dizze]

Actually, card counting is not fraud. Go to Vegas and you'll find that they may not like card counting, there is nothing illegal about it. In fact, a couple of years ago I had an unofficial tour of a Vegas casino by an advantage player who pointed out how advantage play was done, and how teams of players can cause a massive dent in the casino's profits. As long as they didn't use electronics, or anything else expressively forbidden, the casinos were fair game.

As for the online version, there is a distinct difference between advantage play and fraud. The problem is that many APs do indeed commit fraud, but there are those who don't. I feel that APs are needed on the playing field to keep casinos in check. Even though many casinos don't like them, and at times I don't like what they do since they really spoil the generosity of a casino which affects regular players, they are a necessary evil

Fraudsters are not a necessary evil; they are simply people who feel that cheating is acceptable. It's unethical, most times illegal, and when we expose it, we boot these members and at times warn casino operators.

I don't ban APs from using the PAB service since it's for all members. If it turns out that it's being abused, perhaps we'll limit the amount of PABs from bona fide APs. But we haven't had to deal with that yet since people are going to complain either to us or in the public fora; I'd rather try and help the guy (or gal) out. Besides, it gives Max something to do.

As for being an affiliate, I've never considered myself or the site as an affiliate site. For 16 years, Casinomeister has followed its mission statement: " Our mission at Casinomeister is to provide solid information; information that enables players to make smart choices."

APs are not fraudsters. It's the fraudsters, not APs, that are the bane of the industry.

The Casinomeister philosophy and mission statement: there is a section on advantage players here: https://www.casinomeister.com/about-us/philosophy/

With all due respect, that would be utterly terrible and would show that you are in fact not in the best interest of the player but are pandering up to casinos.

We all know that casinos can easily rewrite terms and conditions to make AP very hard or impossible

For example, we have a casino where i posted, that has many terms missing, which you would think was written by some no knowledge business person who couldn't even be bothered to research other terms and conditions

Its like if the financial services authority stopped helping consumers who Took advantage of current account switching offers, because they were advantage shoppers LOL

 

[amourgirl]

I give up, what's an AP?

 

[aceking123]

I give up, what's an AP?

advantage player )

 

[dunover]

I give up, what's an AP?

'Advantage Player' - one who always takes a cashable bonus, plays low-risk 50-50 bets on highish stakes in order to make wagering requirement to cash the bonus+winnings out. On slots they may make high stake spins in order to try and get a big hit, then play minimal stakes on low-variance slots to burn the wagering requirement if they hit with the high stake. Most casinos have terms (varying in specificity) against such, but some are vague so the AP's try it on, only to find they don't get paid.

 

[skiny]

If the software was robust enough to ensure that invalid bets could not be placed, it would protect the casino from AP. The aspect of "nannying" would be a by product, but we all get "nannied" in a land casino in any case because the slot machines only accept the bets programmed into them, the dealers will not accept a bet greater or less than the table limits, and the player rewards will only work in the marked games programmed to accept them.

I agree. There's no good reason for software to accept invalid bets. We're not talking about programming an artificial intelligence or complicated algorithms. Knowing how much a player's bonus was and what percent of that he's allowed to wager only requires a small piece of data storage and a calculator.

These guys are a lot better at this stuff than I am so if I can do it, they can do it.

 

[skiny]

'Advantage Player' - one who always takes a cashable bonus, plays low-risk 50-50 bets on highish stakes in order to make wagering requirement to cash the bonus+winnings out. On slots they may make high stake spins in order to try and get a big hit, then play minimal stakes on low-variance slots to burn the wagering requirement if they hit with the high stake. Most casinos have terms (varying in specificity) against such, but some are vague so the AP's try it on, only to find they don't get paid.

What game has 50/50 odds?

Even playing black or red in roulette still gives the house an edge. You have less than a 50/50 chance of hitting either colour which means theoretically this should only work less than 50% of the time.

It would be really interesting to know how many times these APs try this and fail on the initial big bets. I think this is why many casinos don't give you an exact amount you're allowed to wager. If they let you try your luck at a few huge bets on a table game and you lose they keep the money. It's not until after the first half of the strategy works that the casinos start complaining about "substantially lowering your bet" again after moving to slots.

There is absolutely no strategy short of cheating that will guarantee you a profit when you gamble.

In my opinion, even if you are an advantage player, the casino still has the advantage.

 

[vinylweatherman]

What game has 50/50 odds?

Even playing black or red in roulette still gives the house an edge. You have less than a 50/50 chance of hitting either colour which means theoretically this should only work less than 50% of the time.

It would be really interesting to know how many times these APs try this and fail on the initial big bets. I think this is why many casinos don't give you an exact amount you're allowed to wager. If they let you try your luck at a few huge bets on a table game and you lose they keep the money. It's not until after the first half of the strategy works that the casinos start complaining about "substantially lowering your bet" again after moving to slots.

There is absolutely no strategy short of cheating that will guarantee you a profit when you gamble.

In my opinion, even if you are an advantage player, the casino still has the advantage.

This would be the case, provided those in charge have also passed their maths GCSE, and it appears that many have not. They probably graduated in "media studies" or some similar subject, so know how to market an offer, but are not so good at working out whether it is going to be of benefit to the casino or to the players.

For years, the bonus has been the main marketing weapon of choice, yet for years, the software has NOT been designed to properly support this method of promotion. What we have had are several attempts to retrofit software with bonus handling modules, with limited success. Casinos have needed complicated terms and conditions because the software is not capable of handling the implementation of the rules they want to set. If the software was properly adapted, there would only be one term and condition for every bonus ....

1. The software will only permit you to place bets that are eligible under the promotion you have opted into. Click here to see details of the bets you may place.

 

[ProbabilityZero]

Personally I don't "get" how betting high initially on a bonus and then betting low if you get a hit is an advantage play. You are just as likely to make a big loss as you are a big win! (In fact on a 96% slot more likely). I fail to see how preserving a win gained on initial stakes is a bad tactic. It is simply sensible. If the player had instead bet low to start with he would not have risked an equally dire loss if things go the other way. This surely cancels out the occasional big hit! The only time I see advantage play as an issue is with a 97% plus slot which on a 100% bonus match is mathematically likely to see the player profit long term on a 100% 30x wager. I have bet low many tines and been nowhere near making WR and have switched to an all or nothing tactic with higher betting. On average the results are no worse than starting with high bets and switching to low.

 

[jshort]

Personally I don't "get" how betting high initially on a bonus and then betting low if you get a hit is an advantage play. You are just as likely to make a big loss as you are a big win! (In fact on a 96% slot more likely). I fail to see how preserving a win gained on initial stakes is a bad tactic. It is simply sensible. If the player had instead bet low to start with he would not have risked an equally dire loss if things go the other way. This surely cancels out the occasional big hit! The only time I see advantage play as an issue is with a 97% plus slot which on a 100% bonus match is mathematically likely to see the player profit long term on a 100% 30x wager. I have bet low many tines and been nowhere near making WR and have switched to an all or nothing tactic with higher betting. On average the results are no worse than starting with high bets and switching to low.

Your partly correct.

If you have to wager 1000$ on a slot with a RTP of 95%, then your expected loss is 0.05 x 1000$ = 50$. It doesn't matter if you complete this wagering by making 1000 small 1$ wagers or one single big 1000$ wager, the expected loss is still 50$.

Betting low AFTER a big win just reduces risk but doesn't change your expected return/loss. Casinos really just have this rule so that they have one more excuse not to let players withdrawal. If the gambling community wasn't so math-illiterate more players might complain and you wouldn't see this rule on as many online casinos.

Betting HIGH is advantageous under the following conditions;

1) The casino offers repeated bonuses.

2) The casino will void your WR on previous bonuses if your deposit+bonus falls to zero.

 

[dunover]

Your partly correct.

If you have to wager 1000$ on a slot with a RTP of 95%, then your expected loss is 0.05 x 1000$ = 50$. It doesn't matter if you complete this wagering by making 1000 small 1$ wagers or one single big 1000$ wager, the expected loss is still 50$.
Betting low AFTER a big win just reduces risk but doesn't change your expected return/loss. Casinos really just have this rule so that they have one more excuse not to let players withdrawal. If the gambling community wasn't so math-illiterate more players might complain and you wouldn't see this rule on as many online casinos.

Betting HIGH is advantageous under the following conditions;

1) The casino offers repeated bonuses.

2) The casino will void your WR on previous bonuses if your deposit+bonus falls to zero.

Yes it does matter. If you play 1000 x 1 spins, your RTP isn't going to deviate from the 95% by more than 30% +/- in most instances, unless of course you're playing new Netents.
You play 1 spin at 1000x and select a zero spin, you have a RTP of 0%. Play one spin at 1000 and get a 5 x stake win, and you have a 500% RTP and 5000 balance. Neither of those results is likely if you play 1000 spins at 1$. The former is impossible barring the biggest numerical calamity in the history of the universe, the latter possible but highly unlikely.
This is why casinos have bonus stake limits. Yes, the casino still pays out 95% overall, but your example ignores variance. If slots had ZERO variance and produced 95% on EVERY spin whatever the stake, then of course your statement would be true.

 

[dunover]

What game has 50/50 odds?

Even playing black or red in roulette still gives the house an edge. You have less than a 50/50 chance of hitting either colour which means theoretically this should only work less than 50% of the time.

It would be really interesting to know how many times these APs try this and fail on the initial big bets. I think this is why many casinos don't give you an exact amount you're allowed to wager. If they let you try your luck at a few huge bets on a table game and you lose they keep the money. It's not until after the first half of the strategy works that the casinos start complaining about "substantially lowering your bet" again after moving to slots.

There is absolutely no strategy short of cheating that will guarantee you a profit when you gamble.

In my opinion, even if you are an advantage player, the casino still has the advantage.

Heads and tails, hi-lo numbers (well, were supposed to be level.) Perhaps I should have quoted from the terms instead of using the player perception of some games. "Placing of low-risk bets..."

 

[jshort]

Yes, the casino still pays out 95% overall, but your example ignores variance.

I said THE RETURN IS CONSTANT, not the risk.

Of course different wagering sizes influence the variance, but the only scenarios in which a casino should care about that is highly unlikely or impossible.

If we we're dealing with highly extravagant wager sizes that could financially bankrupt the business you'd have a point.

If the casino had an incredibly small player base (ie just a few daily customers), the casino should similarly face a risk of ruin.

However in most cases, even if EVERY SINGLE PLAYER decided that they we're going to significantly drop their bet sizes upon hitting big with an SUB or other bonus, the casino would still hit its expected return at the end of the day (maybe end of the week) as apose to if the same players DIDN'T DROP their wagers sizes upon hitting big. In the very short term, the casino may experience increased fluctuations in its daily $$ intake (this really depends on the size of its player base) but things would always even out after enough time.

The "no large drops in wagering" or "inconsistent wagering sizes" rule as seen in some T&Cs is rubbish and possibly just used to decrease casino payouts.

 

[pmutts]

Advantage Players -- Bacteria??? ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

APs are like bacteria, they're not "evil" they're just looking for a good place to find a meal and breed (so to speak). IMO the "service" they provide is basically housekeeping: they find the soft bits of the casinos, the exposed underbelly, the ill-conceived and/or poorly executed offering, the unprotected honey-pots.

Is this bad or wrong? I'd say no more so than sunburn or mosquito bites: protect yourself or suffer the consequences. Annoying maybe, possibly even harmful but also a fact of life. Open a casino and you attract the APs, simple as that. No amount of huffing and puffing is going to change the basic equation of "money on offer = some people wanting to get as much of it as they can".

As to "the generosity of casinos" I'd have to say that's a contradiction in terms. It's right up there with "the generosity of bankers": ain't no such thing. People open and run casinos to make money, not friends. Any "generosity" on offer is a bit of bait on the end of a fishing line. Mind the hook. Want the bait and not the hook? Ah, now you are an AP!

What an EXCELLENT analogy! I love it. It is perfect.

Fortunately, we have developed treatments to effectively treat and cure the vast majority diseases caused by harmful bacteria.

More importantly--the human race would not exist without the countless BENEFICIAL species of bacterium that are essential to our existence.

 

[maxd]

Fortunately, we have developed treatments to effectively treat and cure the vast majority diseases caused by harmful bacteria.

[derail]

That isn't the whole story, in fact a good part of it is old news. FYI (my bolding):

Antibiotic resistance is a serious and growing phenomenon in contemporary medicine and has emerged as one of the pre-eminent public health concerns of the 21st century, in particular as it pertains to pathogenic organisms (the term is especially relevant to organisms that cause disease in humans). A World Health Organization report released April 30, 2014 states, "this serious threat is no longer a prediction for the future, it is happening right now in every region of the world and has the potential to affect anyone, of any age, in any country. Antibiotic resistance–when bacteria change so antibiotics no longer work in people who need them to treat infections–is now a major threat to public health."

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For instance in the US your chances of dying of an infectious disease (once contracted) are 10 times greater today than they were 30 years ago. In some areas of Western Europe it's quite a bit worse than that, especially if your case involves certain strains of pneumonia or blood diseases where the mortality rate due to drug resistance is now as high as 50%. That's a serious issue.

A further example from a WHO (World Health Organization) report published recently:

E. coli was effectively treated in nearly all cases in the 80s. ... those same antibiotics are ineffective in more than half of E. coli cases today.

Just saying.

[/derail]

 

[Nifty29]

Personally I don't "get" how betting high initially on a bonus and then betting low if you get a hit is an advantage play. You are just as likely to make a big loss as you are a big win! (In fact on a 96% slot more likely). I fail to see how preserving a win gained on initial stakes is a bad tactic. It is simply sensible. If the player had instead bet low to start with he would not have risked an equally dire loss if things go the other way. This surely cancels out the occasional big hit! The only time I see advantage play as an issue is with a 97% plus slot which on a 100% bonus match is mathematically likely to see the player profit long term on a 100% 30x wager. I have bet low many tines and been nowhere near making WR and have switched to an all or nothing tactic with higher betting. On average the results are no worse than starting with high bets and switching to low.

Yes.

The rule of thumb is that the less bets you make the less you expose your bankroll to the house edge.

The true AP looking to extract maximum value from a bonus bets as high as possible from go to woe I.e. they don't grind out on smaller bets after an initial big hit.

Grinding produces more cashouts, but the overall value of those cashouts will be lower than if they max bet the whole time and cashed out less often (busted more often). Grinding is for amateurs.

 

[pmutts]

Great minds think alike . . .

[derail]
That isn't the whole story. FYI (my bolding):

[/derail]

Max, I contemplated going there in my post but chose not to as it would have only diminished the point and derailed the thread.

 

[dunover]

I said THE RETURN IS CONSTANT, not the risk.

Of course different wagering sizes influence the variance, but the only scenarios in which a casino should care about that is highly unlikely or impossible.

If we we're dealing with highly extravagant wager sizes that could financially bankrupt the business you'd have a point.

If the casino had an incredibly small player base (ie just a few daily customers), the casino should similarly face a risk of ruin.

However in most cases, even if EVERY SINGLE PLAYER decided that they we're going to significantly drop their bet sizes upon hitting big with an SUB or other bonus, the casino would still hit its expected return at the end of the day (maybe end of the week) as apose to if the same players DIDN'T DROP their wagers sizes upon hitting big. In the very short term, the casino may experience increased fluctuations in its daily $$ intake (this really depends on the size of its player base) but things would always even out after enough time.

The "no large drops in wagering" or "inconsistent wagering sizes" rule as seen in some T&Cs is rubbish and possibly just used to decrease casino payouts.

With all due respect, you've contradicted yourself there. Your argument (correct) is that in the longer term the casino pays 95%, so by that definition payouts shouldn't be decreased.
We can summarize by saying that casinos do not want people, funded by 'free' bonus money, using that said bonus money to have a few 'free' spins at large stakes which IF yielding the player a large multiple x stake then result in an unnaturally enlarged balance which the player then (sensibly) grinds our on low stakes in order to make a substantial cash out which he/she wouldn't have done without the presence of bonus funds.

 

[skiny]

If a player deposits $100 dollars and takes a 100% deposit bonus with a 30xD+B wage requirement the player starts with 200 dollars and must wager 6000 before cashing out.

That's 6000 $1 spins and with an TRTP 95% the player will (theoretically) go broke after 4000 - winning back 95 cents each spin. In fact even a 98% TRTP will (theoretically) leave you with less than your original deposit after 6000 one dollar spins.

Gamblers win by not continuing to wager while they're ahead. The purpose of wage requirements are to not let them do that.

If a player actually achieved an RTP of 95% after 6000 one dollar spins he would have to start with 400 dollars just to be left with his original 100.

Advantage players are simply trying to give themselves more than that 400 dollar start. The only way to do this is bet big and hope you win something right away and then lower your bet to let the TRTP work for you instead of against you. If you take one of these bonuses and spin low even wagers on slots you're theoretically doomed right from the start.

There is no guarantee that betting high in roulette will achieve your goal but if you're allowed to bet a large portion of your bonus and you get lucky a few times it can happen. Casinos know this and should be able to work the same doomed to fail formula into the table games.

If a player is allowed to bet 10% of his bonus he would have to double up his wager 20 times more than he loses it to reach that 400 dollar start. That's no easy task with only a 48.6% chance of winning. If a player is allowed to wager 30% of his bonus he would only have to double up his wager 7 times more than he loses. This is pretty basic math that the casino should be able to do and there is no reason why an exact number can't be given that a player is allowed to bet.

But I don't believe that trying to jack up your initial bankroll while staying within the terms and conditions of the bonus is any more unethical than offering a bonus with a wage requirement that theoretically guarantees you'll go broke before you clear it. People are supposed to use their heads when they gamble and they're supposed to find the best ways to win.

The next time you sit down at a poker game try sliding a piece of paper across the table that says "Irregular playing patterns include raising your bet when you have a good hand and then substantially lowering it when you have crap" and then see if the other players are willing to void these hands and return their wagers when someone does it. No, it's not exactly the same thing but it is using your brain to figure out what the best way is to win and it is within the rules of the game.

Advantage players are not bacteria. They're just gamblers who have the ambition and the brains to do the math before they start.

Now bonus whores and multi-account holders are an entirely different thing. This is where the casino's tolerance threshold should be. Simple solution. Boot them out for fraud or limit their bonuses. But if anyone who is not a fraud is offered a bonus and stays within the terms and conditions that person has to be paid regardless of how they managed to come out ahead. Sometimes players win even when they take bonuses. Tough.

 

[Nifty29]

If a player deposits $100 dollars and takes a 100% deposit bonus with a 30xD+B wage requirement the player starts with 200 dollars and must wager 6000 before cashing out.

That's 6000 $1 spins and with an TRTP 95% the player will (theoretically) go broke after 4000 - winning back 95 cents each spin. In fact even a 98% TRTP will (theoretically) leave you with less than your original deposit after 6000 one dollar spins.

Gamblers win by not continuing to wager while they're ahead. The purpose of wage requirements are to not let them do that.

If a player actually achieved an RTP of 95% after 6000 one dollar spins he would have to start with 400 dollars just to be left with his original 100.

Advantage players are simply trying to give themselves more than that 400 dollar start. The only way to do this is bet big and hope you win something right away and then lower your bet to let the TRTP work for you instead of against you. If you take one of these bonuses and spin low even wagers on slots you're theoretically doomed right from the start.

There is no guarantee that betting high in roulette will achieve your goal but if you're allowed to bet a large portion of your bonus and you get lucky a few times it can happen. Casinos know this and should be able to work the same doomed to fail formula into the table games.

If a player is allowed to bet 10% of his bonus he would have to double up his wager 20 times more than he loses it to reach that 400 dollar start. That's no easy task with only a 48.6% chance of winning. If a player is allowed to wager 30% of his bonus he would only have to double up his wager 7 times more than he loses. This is pretty basic math that the casino should be able to do and there is no reason why an exact number can't be given that a player is allowed to bet.

But I don't believe that trying to jack up your initial bankroll while staying within the terms and conditions of the bonus is any more unethical than offering a bonus with a wage requirement that theoretically guarantees you'll go broke before you clear it. People are supposed to use their heads when they gamble and they're supposed to find the best ways to win.

The next time you sit down at a poker game try sliding a piece of paper across the table that says "Irregular playing patterns include raising your bet when you have a good hand and then substantially lowering it when you have crap" and then see if the other players are willing to void these hands and return their wagers when someone does it. No, it's not exactly the same thing but it is using your brain to figure out what the best way is to win and it is within the rules of the game.

Advantage players are not bacteria. They're just gamblers who have the ambition and the brains to do the math before they start.

Now bonus whores and multi-account holders are an entirely different thing. This is where the casino's tolerance threshold should be. Simple solution. Boot them out for fraud or limit their bonuses. But if anyone who is not a fraud is offered a bonus and stays within the terms and conditions that person has to be paid regardless of how they managed to come out ahead. Sometimes players win even when they take bonuses. Tough.

I agree with much of this, except to reiterate what I previously posted.

The bet big, hit big, then grind small is a good method to improve your chances of a cashout. However, it is not the optimal method to extract maximum value from bonuses over time. The best way is to meet the WR with as few actual bets as possible, thus limiting your exposure to the house edge. In the long term, you end up further ahead, even though you cashout less often.

KK used to be a grinder, until he saw the light (via Enzo IIRC) and realised that even though he did pretty well out of those juicy pre-UIGEA bonuses, he could have done a lot better.

A decade ago or more, online casinos were AP fodder with 5x or less WR and no max cashouts on freebies etc. Unfortunately, the APs became too greedy and created entire websites and syndicates that systematically hit operators to the point where it was becoming unprofitable. As a result, we now have 30x or more WR and draconian terms everywhere we look.

True APs aren't criminals....but they absolutely ARE the reason for the extinction of decent bonuses and the confiscations of winnings from genuinely innocent players who's only "crime" is that they're either too lazy or stupid to read the rules. APs basically "shat in their own nests", and collectively killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

 

[skiny]

I agree with much of this, except to reiterate what I previously posted.

The bet big, hit big, then grind small is a good method to improve your chances of a cashout. However, it is not the optimal method to extract maximum value from bonuses over time. The best way is to meet the WR with as few actual bets as possible, thus limiting your exposure to the house edge. In the long term, you end up further ahead, even though you cashout less often.

KK used to be a grinder, until he saw the light (via Enzo IIRC) and realised that even though he did pretty well out of those juicy pre-UIGEA bonuses, he could have done a lot better.

A decade ago or more, online casinos were AP fodder with 5x or less WR and no max cashouts on freebies etc. Unfortunately, the APs became too greedy and created entire websites and syndicates that systematically hit operators to the point where it was becoming unprofitable. As a result, we now have 30x or more WR and draconian terms everywhere we look.

True APs aren't criminals....but they absolutely ARE the reason for the extinction of decent bonuses and the confiscations of winnings from genuinely innocent players who's only "crime" is that they're either too lazy or stupid to read the rules. APs basically "shat in their own nests", and collectively killed the goose that laid the golden egg.

I think they're the reason for the extinction of the big welcome bonus with easy WR. Which I never thought was the best marketing tool to begin with because they're destined to attract advantage players and bonus hunters and advantage players and bonus hunters are not usually all that loyal. There's no reason casinos can't offer nice bonuses to existing players based on loyalty.

If casinos really want to attract a good client base that will remain loyal they should be fighting for the best loyalty programs. Let the fly by night advantage players find a new hobby. Offer cash back on deposits, higher comp points than the competition instead of having to wager 10 thousand dollars to earn back 10. Free draws for cash or prizes.

The best companies don't need a great big hook to drag people in. And even if players do wander off to take one of these big welcome bonuses elsewhere they're only going to end up right back where there was more incentive to stay.

 

[AmarrEmperor]

i think people who complain like you are the cancer, always annoy

There is NO SUCH DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN AP AND A NORMAL PLAYER

Get that through your head!

Alert, Alert, We have detected an AP

 

[jshort]

1.

funded by 'free' bonus money, using that said bonus money to have a few 'free' spins at large stakes which IF yielding the player a large multiple x stake then result in an unnaturally enlarged balance

2.

which the player then (sensibly) grinds our on low stakes in order to make a substantial cash out which he/she wouldn't have done without the presence of bonus funds

In general I agree with #1 (wagering large with bonus funds to try and hit big), but #2 is irrelevant. Even if the player doesn't drop his stakes after hitting, his expected loss is still the same, despite the fact that he's much more likely to possibly lose his entire win. I can understand psychologically why a player doesn't want to risk losing their win by continuing to bet high (indeed it ruins the "high" one gets from winning) but mathematically it makes no difference and being en emotionless and calculating business, there is no reason why the casino should care either.

If a casino has a "no dropping your wagers" rule, it increases the possibility that it wont have to payout a players win because some players don't read the T&Cs and thus might have their winnings voided by breaking them. This is the only reason an online casino would have this rule.

 

[skiny]

funded by 'free' bonus money, using that said bonus money to have a few 'free' spins at large stakes which IF yielding the player a large multiple x stake then result in an unnaturally enlarged balance

A few free spins that you have to pay for by making a deposit at a large stake where the house still has the edge regardless of what game you play.

If the odds were that good that those first few large spins would yield a win there would be no point in taking the bonus. You could just make those spins with your deposit. You take the bonus because the odds of winning with those large spins are against you and if you lose you've just wasted the bonus money and are now stuck with a huge wage requirement and half your starting balance.

No matter how you play the game the odds are never going to be in your favour. Some casinos seem to forget this. Rather than worrying about how a small hand full of players are wagering their bonuses they should understand that in the long run the TRTP is going to put them on top. The WR on the bonuses guarantees this provided everyone plays within the terms and conditions.