external image

DaVinci's Gold requesting notarized docs

I agree that it would not be cost effective to request notarized docs from each and every player. However, while TIV and some others may have genuine concerns on whether some players are fraud there may be some rogues using this as a ploy to delay cashouts or not to pay at all. We should not trust the casino in this regard as we dont know whether they are the former or latter. If there was a system which requires for such documentation when we register/deposit we should have much less to worry about.

Maybe the casino could seek to reimburse the notarization fees or rather the portion of fees that exceed $5/10. Or they could give a match bonus for these fees with a 3x playthrough.:D:D. IMO the casinos may really require these docs for security purposes but havent given much thought to this issue to make it more palatable to the players. Simply stating that this occurs infrequently is not enough because of the fundamental question: Who knows?

That is a good point chuchu59, if the player does have to go to the expense and the trouble of getting documents notarized and the player is found to be in good standing then they should reimburse the player or maybe add a no deposit bonus. :thumbsup:
As for the it occurring infrequently, this is the 1st time I've seen it come up in the forums and it's just a 2 times thing in the last week or so, so it doesn't seem to be a frequent occurrence judging by that.
As I said in another post....if it's used as a delaying payment tactic for no good reason then that is just wrong, but we have absolutely no proof of that in these two cases.
 
Last edited:
I understand there is fine print on this, but if I go to my bank where I have an account, usually I swipe my debit card and then perform my transaction. There is no protection for the casino or the player, only another hurdle placed in front of players by an industry that is already filled with too many. I say again, if I am an identity thieve and have ID in someone elses name, the casino would not have a clue. ASK WHEN I SIGN UP and the issue is moot. Seems kind of underhanded to take money with no questions asked, then go gestapo on you when you win and want some back. This conversation is as pointless now as in past threads. Besides, the casinos have the nuclear option (i.e., the big FU clause that their decision is final) Come on regulation, then I will feel a whole lot better about this issue.
 
what is the cost for having( per )doc notarized in other countries? i know what is ethical to charge in the u.s, but im wondering about the costs abroad, are we talking about a huge sum or the usuall 50. cent- 5.00 per stamp and signature for each doc presented ?......laurie
 
I understand there is fine print on this, but if I go to my bank where I have an account, usually I swipe my debit card and then perform my transaction.
Excuse me but didn't you have to provide some ID to get that debit card?

There is no protection for the casino or the player, only another hurdle placed in front of players by an industry that is already filled with too many. I say again, if I am an identity thieve and have ID in someone elses name, the casino would not have a clue.
They do have protection in place, perhaps that is why they are asking for the documents in the first place. :rolleyes:

ASK WHEN I SIGN UP and the issue is moot.
They do warn you and why should they get everyone's documents when it's highly likely that the majority of players will never cash out?
Seems kind of underhanded to take money with no questions asked, then go gestapo on you when you win and want some back.
Oh come on........it's not a common practice, now is it?

This conversation is as pointless now as in past threads. Besides, the casinos have the nuclear option (i.e., the big FU clause that their decision is final) Come on regulation, then I will feel a whole lot better about this issue.

If you feel that strongly about it why do you play, assuming you do? Oh and doesn't almost every company that you do business with has a FU clause as you call it?
Agreed........regulation is needed, but even if there is some worldwide licensing agency there are still going to be rouges and players who choose to play at them, IMO. And if the conversation is pointless why are you participating??
 
after giving this some thought, i have to agree that if fraud is what might be in question, whats the harm in having a few docs notarized, i mean (if )they(the casino) were stalling for time they could have one jumping thru hoops all day long, ie, this gas bill is to old, we need a newer statement ,ect and the list goes on. if i wanted my money bad enough and i knew i was in the right and had nothing to hide, give them the proof, have the docs notarized and be done with it...............just my few cents worth!! laurie
 
If this is what the casino wants and you want your money i dont think you have a choice but to go ahead and have them notarized. If other casinos follow with asking for notarized docs you will be a step ahead with your docs as you will already have them done before many of us others on here. I had a issue prob with another casino ,when they did contact me they did explain the reason behind this and trust me at their end there is a lot of issues they deal with much more then us just making a deposit that is done within seconds. Some of the issues deal with money laundering id theft and so on. And this one casino showed me just that someone had got hold of my account number and wanted it changed over and so on and so on till we got it fixed up.
 
I think the only ones left discussing this would do whatever it took to clear thier winnings.

I would not have found this forum if (shudder) golden casino had not stalled me for 3 months.

The point is casino's have used this document tactic for years but only after you request a withdrawal.

If I am a pit boss and I see a peach fuzz kid winning thousands on my shift he will get his ID checked. Until then let him lose.

Same way with online. If your losing, no fraud worries, but try to WIN something.

Its all about money. The longer they keep your money, the more likely you are to reverse it.

If you don't believe that you are indeed a valued customer of the take take take.

Why do you think they call the days proceeds the TAKE. lol.
 
Wow, kind of harsh bb. FYI, I only play at a couple of trusted places and I have never, EVER been asked for documents or ID. Perhaps it's because I play regularly and have made so many deposits, I don't know. I did in fact show ID for my debit card WHEN I OPENED MY ACCOUNT!! Thanks bb for making my point that these things should be done upfront. I'm sorry you feel the need to admonish me for suggesting that there is a better way to do things. I sure hope you never post on here about how so and so casino stole my identity, because really you will have just given it to them. Not saying it would happen, but who knows?

You are right about one thing though, it is pointless to discuss as so many players will just go along with whatever ridiculous requests the casino makes of them. So if I understand you correctly, the casinos shouldn't check you out ahead of time because chances are you will lose anyway?? You would prefer to be surprised after you win and want to be paid?? Strange attitude IMO.

This insurance company type attitude of taking the premiums no questions asked but stalling and stalling when it is time to pay up gives this industry a black eye IMO. This endeavor ultimately comes down to trust between the casino and the player. The casino can screw the player by not paying and disappearing and the player can screw the casino by charging back deposits. It is a kind of detente that makes the whole document thing ridiculous.

BTW, what are these "protections" you speak of that they have in place and how does it benefit the player in anyway? Care to elaborate on that one??

There, I'm through with my retort. Talk amongst yourselves......
 
Wow, kind of harsh bb. FYI, I only play at a couple of trusted places and I have never, EVER been asked for documents or ID. Perhaps it's because I play regularly and have made so many deposits, I don't know. I did in fact show ID for my debit card WHEN I OPENED MY ACCOUNT!! Thanks bb for making my point that these things should be done upfront. I'm sorry you feel the need to admonish me for suggesting that there is a better way to do things. I sure hope you never post on here about how so and so casino stole my identity, because really you will have just given it to them. Not saying it would happen, but who knows?

Harsh??? Admonish? Pretty strong words there and no I don't think I did either one of those. I didn't say that the points I were trying to make were a better way of doing things. I simply said that is the way it is. Stealing your identity....now how does that come into this discussion?

You are right about one thing though, it is pointless to discuss as so many players will just go along with whatever ridiculous requests the casino makes of them. So if I understand you correctly, the casinos shouldn't check you out ahead of time because chances are you will lose anyway?? You would prefer to be surprised after you win and want to be paid?? Strange attitude IMO.

You are taking my words and twisting them into a statement I did NOT make. NOT nice!

This insurance company type attitude of taking the premiums no questions asked but stalling and stalling when it is time to pay up gives this industry a black eye IMO. This endeavor ultimately comes down to trust between the casino and the player. The casino can screw the player by not paying and disappearing and the player can screw the casino by charging back deposits. It is a kind of detente that makes the whole document thing ridiculous.

Your comparison of insurance ripping people off vs casino's is just muddling up the issue. If you want to talk about insurance rip off's...how about posting that in the attic? And.....for the record once again, if it's used as a delaying payment tactic for no good reason then that is just wrong and there should be plenty of outrage, but do you see a lot of posts complaining of this?

BTW, what are these "protections" you speak of that they have in place and how does it benefit the player in anyway? Care to elaborate on that one??

Any legitimate business has protections in place to prevent fraud and theft but yet fraud and theft continue to happen every day. It's just the way it is.


There, I'm through with my retort. Talk amongst yourselves......

I'll just ignore your dismissive comment.
 
I think we have heard both sides of the story and maybe we should just leave it at that. The casinos have a right to ask for the notarized docs but they need to address 2 issues. One is that they should not be singling some players out for scrutiny just because they think there might be fraud involved. Who would like to be accused that way? So they should ask for docs accross the board. The other isse is the cost involved which may be peanuts to some and quite substantial to others. If the casinos are looking for long-term relationships they should bear at least part of the fees incurred. This is something extra on top of the usual ID/Address proof and they should address the players' concerns and make it easier for them to devour. A sweetener like a ND bonus which is equivalent to the fees should do the trick.
 
Just as I expected bb. You rant and rave and offer no logical response. Not sure what your problem is, but you certainly have one. Regardless, not going to fly with me. So, what are the protections bb? Are you just assuming that they exist? Until you can relate something other than slamming me for attempting to bring about change through discussion, I suggest you not humiliate yourself further with your opinions presented as fact. I will not entertain further discussion on this with you as you obviously cannot intelligently defend your position. Good luck!
 
ChuChu, you can give them all the docs you want, but again, don't complain if something happens. Notarized documents now, whats next, a blood sample??
 
One last thing bb, just because things are the way they are for you, doesn't make it that way for all. Sorry, but your opinion is not the only one on this forum and you should conduct yourself in such a manner as to respect others.
 
Just as I expected bb. You rant and rave and offer no logical response. Not sure what your problem is, but you certainly have one. Regardless, not going to fly with me. So, what are the protections bb? Are you just assuming that they exist? Until you can relate something other than slamming me for attempting to bring about change through discussion, I suggest you not humiliate yourself further with your opinions presented as fact. I will not entertain further discussion on this with you as you obviously cannot intelligently defend your position. Good luck!

Rant and rave uh? Slamming you? :confused: I was just stating my opinion and debating with you because I disagree with some of the points you have made.
You just took this to a personal level by being insulting and rude in what you said in the above post. So don't stress out, this is my last post in this thread.
Differences of opinion are fine and disagreement is fine but personal attacks are not.

Pacers...... I did not disrespect you nor did I stoop to personal attacks as you just did.
 
after giving this some thought, i have to agree that if fraud is what might be in question, whats the harm in having a few docs notarized, i mean (if )they(the casino) were stalling for time they could have one jumping thru hoops all day long, ie, this gas bill is to old, we need a newer statement ,ect and the list goes on. if i wanted my money bad enough and i knew i was in the right and had nothing to hide, give them the proof, have the docs notarized and be done with it...............just my few cents worth!! laurie

If fraud is suspected the casino has a right to protect itself but what is fraud.

I guess it's playing while underage, under an assumed name that loans you thier debit/credit card

does this give you an advantage?

Is it a drug cartel that is trying to double the ill gotten money on achilles or mega moohlah?

are they more likely to win?

Anyone that deposits is taking a risk, so what kind of fraud are they looking for?
 
Again bb, support your argument. What are these brilliant security features?? I don't give a rats ass about you disrespecting me, just present an intelligent arguement to the facts I've laid out. You speak in platitudes and ignore the logic in my statements. You are either very gullible or worse. Until you can back up your position with facts, have a coke and a smile and................

I'm sorry you don't seem to understand alliteration, as with my insurance comparison, but reread my post and if you still don't get it, let me know. By all means continue to do what the online casinos tell you. I'm sure you are just the personality type they love as a customer. BAHBAH BAHBAH BAHBAH (as in sheep)
 
pacers and bb, you know i think the world of both of you and i hate to see two such fine people going at each other, you both have great points and i respect what both of you have posted, i just hate to see you two smart forum friends trading barbs with one another, your both above that, atleast to me anyways...........laurie
 
I am still waiting for a good answer

This question - that seems to feed off of the pessimism that many players have - is a legitimate one, but it's easily answered.

I'm not sure if I'm just not getting it, or whatever, but I still feel that no one has provided a convincing answer to this question:

Why are docs needed for a casino to process a withdrawl, but are unnecessary for accepting a deposit?


Hi All,

The demand for ID verification is growing all the time. Most reputable casinos in reputable jurisdictions are required to adhere to specific anti money laundering codes and with the release of the latest directive the requirement for verification is only going to grow.

So a cashout is a possible money laundering situation, but a deposit is not? It seems to me that there is far, far, more potential for multiple deposits to be used to launder drug or terrorist money than for a relatively small cashout to be used as such. And, maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that any arguement for government compliance would apply to both deposits and cashouts equally, not only when a lucky player wants to actually posess some of his/her winnings.

Once again if you don't like these policies then don't play. I don't get why players have to try to trample on Rival casinos as if they exposed a big flaw, I don't see other managers on here fielding these questions when they have different software but the exact same policies.

First of all, John, I haven't seen anyone "picking" on Rival casinos in this thread; it has really been a discussion about any applicable casino or software. It was, however, Da Vinci's Gold that asked for the notarized docs that spurred the creation of this thread in the first place, and that is how Rival was brought into this.

More disturbing to me is your admonishment that "if you don't like these policies then don't play". John, this is a forum where players discuss issues that are important to them, including casino policies that are perceived as unfair. I don't see the need to get so heavy handed. I personally don't understand the need for documentation at all, let alone notarized docs.


Casinos have argued that asking for documents up front would deter players, and send them to other operators who would allow instant play. This argument, however, does NOT excuse letting a player play for weeks, maybe even YEARS, before asking for documents. As chuchu59 says, there is no reason not to request documents once the casino has received a deposit from a player, and they are playing. If they are unable to satisfy the casino, then they can be ejected before they have made more than a couple of deposits (which should be returned), rather than after a long history of believing they would be paid if they won, only to find they never could have been.

Yes, yes, yes!!! I couldn't agree more. If all this fraud, money laundering, and government directive stuff is as important as the casinos would like us all to believe, then why not have any necessary documentation cleared before a player deposits more than, say, $300.00 or so?

The answer, it seems to me, is one that is totally self-serving for the casino operators. Quite simply, they would stand to lose money if this practice were to be implemented. In other words, if the casinos benefit from an attempt at fraud because the depositor lost their deposit, so be it; but try and cashout and all sorts of documentation is required in the name of fraud prevention.


The EU directive requires that Customer Due Diligence needs to carried out after certain triggers have been activated:
Article 8
1. Customer Due Diligence measures shall compromise:
a) Identifying the customer and verifying the customer's identity on the basis of documents, data or information obtained from a reliable and independent source;
It goes on to list a few other identity requirements.
It further indicates in Section 3, Article 13 that Enhanced Due Diligence needs to be carried out when additional triggers are hit;
2. Where the customer has not been physically present for identification purposes, Member States shall require those institutions and persons to take specific and adequate measures to compensate for the higher risk, for example by applying one or more of the following measure:
a) ensuring the customer's identity is established by additional documents, data or information;
b) supplementary measures to verify or certify the documents supplied, or requiring confirmatory certification by a credit or financial institution etc.

Again, please don't consider a request for documents as a stalling tactic or as an accusation, in most cases it is part of an operators regulatory and legal obligation.

I don't see where this directive applies only to cashout requests; it certainly should apply to deposits as well, no?

The rule should be, if you take my deposit without any ID request, give me my withdrawl without any ID request. It couldn't be any simpler or fairer than that.

Well said. The casino operators should not get away with having it both ways.

Remember that little I agree button that you said yes to when you installed the software? Most casino's have a clause in their terms and conditions that advise you that you may be asked or you will be asked to provide documentation when you are cashing out.

.....Another example from 3Dice. "Before any winnings are paid out, 3DICE.COM reserves the right to require the user to provide information or documentation as to verify the users identity."

First of all, just because casinos put something in their T&Cs doesn't mean that it's fair or cannot be discussed.

Secondly, your quotation of 3dice's policy puts my point into the exact perspective to end this post. So, I'll ask one more time: Why does a casino only care about documentation when they are paying out funds? Isn't it a concern at all when they are receiving them?????????
 
Secondly, your quotation of 3dice's policy puts my point into the exact perspective to end this post. So, I'll ask one more time: Why does a casino only care about documentation when they are paying out funds? Isn't it a concern at all when they are receiving them?????????

The casino has no answer to this because you are absolutely right. If they want to ask for id for out , there should be id getting in. Then when everything is settled before game play, there should not be anymore questions when cashing out. It is like signing a one sided contract and the only way make it fair is to point out the deficiencies. This thread is pointing out the deficiencies and let's hope they do something about it.

If they don't there are other options out there.
 
Admin Note - please be cool

Please check your emotions at the door. Some members here are letting their emotions get the best of them - think like a Vulcan please :D

I'm not sure if I'm just not getting it, or whatever, but I still feel that no one has provided a convincing answer to this question:

Why are docs needed for a casino to process a withdrawl, but are unnecessary for accepting a deposit?
Sorry, I thought I answered this question in that post. The thing is, I've answered this question so often, I begin to use telepathy. We'll be adding it to the FAQ since there are a number of threads that rehash this issue at least three times a year, and the answer is always the same.

Answer: Online casinos do not ask for IDs when signing up because they will lose customers. Players will move on to a casino that does not require ID checks because players need to gamble "now".

Online casinos do not ask for IDs when signing up because they are not required to. Why should they voluntarily throw an obstacle in the way of a newly signing up customer?

Online casinos give the player the benefit of the doubt when the player says who they are is who they are. Maybe this is wrong, and there should be a regulated ID check at the door, but as long as one casino group doesn't do this - all of them with fall into the same pattern. Competition is fierce in this industry.

They ask for it when cashing out (once) for a number of reasons: licensing requirements, banking regulations, company SOP, suspect fraud, stalling for payments (rogue :D) list goes on, etc.

One thing we are missing when debating this argument is that they are just as many types of casinos as there are players. It's difficult to compare one casino with another since they have differing business ethics, management, licensing, software, etc. etc. Sure, there are rogue entities that require players to provide IDs when checking out because they see their non-rogue brethren asking for this. It's a good way to stall - for a rogue. Perhaps it's a frustration for a non-rogue, but they can be assured that the player is probably legit.

Bottom line is, there's not much you can do about it. You and I can come up with all of the analogies under the sun to explain this thing, but online casinos are pretty much a new frontier and this makes it difficult to compare them to land based operations. Providing IDs at cashing out is something you have to accept. Not sure you want to provide this info? This is why I have been hammering into players' heads for years "Do your due diligence."

FWIW I've been playing online for nearly ten years. I can count the times I've had to provide ID on one maybe two hands.
 
If we were to make the industry go forward players will have to play the ball game and provide the requisite docs. When there is an industry-wide consensus that this needs to be done, there should be no fear of losing out to competitors No one knows for sure whether the casinos are stalling payment when players cash out. For one thing, with the USA out of bounds for a range of casinos, there may be cashflow problems for some of them and though not entirely rogue, this can be used as a tactic to enhance liquidity just like paying progressives in instalments. Frankly, if this is entirely related to fraud, I woundnt counter it at all but you never know the true motives behind.

I believe it is high time for casinos to review this policy of theirs. If they feel it is necessary, ask for the docs on signing up or within a reasonable time frame after the first deposits. We should have a system working and this should not be left in the hands of the casino operators who may or may not be rogue or even somewhere between.
 
According to the regulation posted by BelleRock, ALL players fall into the "not physically present" category, which required their ID to be verified at once. While this would lose the casino money, there is no "get out" in law for this stance, the requirement begins as soon as the player puts money in, although this is different from "at registration". Clearly, the answer would be this (or similar).

On making the FIRST deposit, the process triggers an Email to the player giving them notice that, if they were to request a cash in, they would be required to produce certain documents. The specific documents required from that player should be listed so that they could prepare them in advance. This at least allows the instant gratification element, but also lets the player see what documents they would be asked for. If the player believes they would not be able to supply these, they have the opportunity to discuss this with the casino, and hopefully soon enough for them not to lose out. If they know they can provide the documents, they could rest easier, and could even send them off in advance for approval while they continue to play.
If the player knows they can provide the listed documents, a further request to have them "notarised" would be an inconvenience, but not an insurmountable obstacle.
While the term quoted and agreed to by players does state that a request for documents could arise, there is no information as to what documents will be accepted. Most players have "documents", but have no idea whether they would be acceptable or not till it is too late. If the casino wants a photo ID, this should be specifically stated by adding to the term "at least one form of ID must include a photo of the holder, and be issued by a government recognised authority". This would inform players who have no photo documents that they would not be able to satisfy this request should it be asked of them, and that they perhaps should not play until they have contacted the casino to see if they would accept other documents (or got themselves a photo document), perhaps even having their non-photo documents notarised, where the notary would be able to have them "physically present" at the time.

Discussing the issue does have value, as it makes casinos aware of problems with this issue, even if they cannot, or are unwilling to, change their procedures.

While requests for notarised documents are infrequent, it was the same for ANY kind of document when I first began to play in 2004. In the future, what is rare now is likely to become common, and raising the issues now will at least help form future procedures, both for casinos and for players.

One problem with players making these documents available in advance is that most casinos don't like this, as they insist not only on documents, but VERY RECENT ONES, so preparing a notarised proof of address could be a waste of money, as in 3 months they will have to get another, and then 3 months later another still.

The industry will still lose players, not at sign-up because they can't play straight away, but because this expanding issue starts to scare away potential new players because they increasingly see this problem being aired.

The best thing players can do now is to prepare to be asked for the following:-

1x Government photo ID, usually drivers licence or passport.
1x separate proof of address, this has to show both the player's name as on the photo ID, as well as the address they live at. A utility bill or bank statement serves this purpose. This can be a problem for those that rent their accommodation, as the utility bills go to the occupant in charge of the property, which is not always going to be the player - such players need to arrange a bill or statement to be sent to them in their own name, but at the rented address.
These two documents are used to tie the name and address together, and against that registered at the casino.
Where cards are used for deposits, images of the cards will almost certainly be requested, and usually a deposit declaration form will need to be signed and sent.

This is the usual MINIMUM standard now, and does not indicate the player is suspected of anything.
Where requests go beyond this, then it is likely that the player has triggered the flags for an enhanced ID check, which may require notarisation of documents, or extra documents, such as a letter from a bank or other institution confirming the player really is a customer, and lives where they say they do (the casino may well contact the institution to confirm the letter is genuine, this is the same as having something "notarised" in terms of the level of security it represents).

Despite casinos being afraid of giving too much away, failure to address the issues will eventually get the media involved once a certain level of complaints is received. Here in the UK, consumer programmes like "Watchdog" investigate such issues and will make the companies accountable. Simply appearing on this programme is enough to seriously dent the credibility of the company, however a story is only featured when a certain level, or severity, of complaints is received, a couple of fraudsters trying it on will not get past the programme researchers, as if they air a bogus complaint, the BBC gets a slap on the wrist, and it's own credibility comes into question.
I believe that online gambling will soon feature on such programes, as it is already heavily promoted through TV adverts and program sponsorship, and most of the country should now be aware that "online casinos" exist, and are considered as an activity as legitimate as going to the local high street bookie.
 
I'm not sure if I'm just not getting it, or whatever, but I still feel that no one has provided a convincing answer to this question:

Why are docs needed for a casino to process a withdrawl, but are unnecessary for accepting a deposit?




So a cashout is a possible money laundering situation, but a deposit is not? It seems to me that there is far, far, more potential for multiple deposits to be used to launder drug or terrorist money than for a relatively small cashout to be used as such. And, maybe I'm missing something, but it seems that any arguement for government compliance would apply to both deposits and cashouts equally, not only when a lucky player wants to actually posess some of his/her winnings.



First of all, John, I haven't seen anyone "picking" on Rival casinos in this thread; it has really been a discussion about any applicable casino or software. It was, however, Da Vinci's Gold that asked for the notarized docs that spurred the creation of this thread in the first place, and that is how Rival was brought into this.

More disturbing to me is your admonishment that "if you don't like these policies then don't play". John, this is a forum where players discuss issues that are important to them, including casino policies that are perceived as unfair. I don't see the need to get so heavy handed. I personally don't understand the need for documentation at all, let alone notarized docs.




Yes, yes, yes!!! I couldn't agree more. If all this fraud, money laundering, and government directive stuff is as important as the casinos would like us all to believe, then why not have any necessary documentation cleared before a player deposits more than, say, $300.00 or so?

The answer, it seems to me, is one that is totally self-serving for the casino operators. Quite simply, they would stand to lose money if this practice were to be implemented. In other words, if the casinos benefit from an attempt at fraud because the depositor lost their deposit, so be it; but try and cashout and all sorts of documentation is required in the name of fraud prevention.




I don't see where this directive applies only to cashout requests; it certainly should apply to deposits as well, no?



Well said. The casino operators should not get away with having it both ways.



First of all, just because casinos put something in their T&Cs doesn't mean that it's fair or cannot be discussed.

Secondly, your quotation of 3dice's policy puts my point into the exact perspective to end this post. So, I'll ask one more time: Why does a casino only care about documentation when they are paying out funds? Isn't it a concern at all when they are receiving them?????????
Please quit trying to confuse the debate by throwing in facts. The whole wear 'em down and then possibly crush the player has a much better feel to it:D. As die hard online fans (versus BandM) I think we should all choose to believe the online casinos (and its' industry) , regardless of any evidence to the contrary.;):thumbsup:;)
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry but the idea that the casino will lose money if they don't ask for the info upfront is flawed in my opinion. To the contrary, I think it will make the player feel more at ease that their withdrawl will be executed without hassle since the docs are already in place. As pointed out above, allowing players to keep depositing and then hitting them with obstacles costs the casino money in loss of future deposits from disgruntled players over this issue.

Besides, they all talk a good game about responsible gaming. I'm sorry, but for me this is no sort of responsible at all. Companies that put their own bottom line over responsible growth will usually fizzle and die of their own stupidity. Perhaps every casino that requires these unreasonable requests is in line for roguedom. Part of being upfront is requesting these things UPFRONT!

And, for that matter, what does it matter where I live?? My govt. issued ID is more than enough since none of this really proves who I am anyway.
 
Bryan, just to clarify, you're basically saying that your answer is that we are at the mercy of the casinos on this issue and we can like it or lump it? Unfortunately that does seem to be the situation. I don't know about you, but when the almighty casinos sell your emails for spam purposes, it justs seems stupid to give them more info to potentially sell.
 
Bryan, just to clarify, you're basically saying that your answer is that we are at the mercy of the casinos on this issue and we can like it or lump it? ...

No not totally. If you can present a good argument on how/what to change, many are receptive to this.

It's a bit like the "bonus" argument. I've preached for a long time that the whole bonusing concept is nothing but a Frankenstein's monster. It should never have happened. All bonuses have caused is player/casino fraud, confiscated winnings, bonus "abuse", etc., and one way to eliminate the bonus problem is to just not do it anymore. But which casino will take the first step? That's the problem - the industry is too competitive.

This whole ID check at the door sounds great, and I'm a supporter of this, but which casino is willing to be the first one to try this? That's the question. Is it practical? Is it needed? This is all debatable. And the operators need to be a part of this debate.

...I don't know about you, but when the almighty casinos sell your emails for spam purposes, it justs seems stupid to give them more info to potentially sell...
I don't think they would sell your ID - perhaps the unscrupulous ones would sell your email address/name/real address to spammers, but this doesn't happen too often. Nevertheless, whenever signing up at a casino use a unique email address: [email protected] for instance. That's how you catch these guys. :thumbsup:
 
Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure someone will :D) but I think I remember having to send in ID documentation before I could make more than 1 deposit at Club World. I know that my account was locked until they got the information. Wouldn't that be the same thing as requesting ID at the beginning of play? Didn't bother me any at the time but I am kinda naive about things like that.

We can bat this around all we want but it all boils down to this, unless and until things change, we have to do whatever the casinos want if we want to continue to play there. Everyone has the option to play whereever they want (except US) and in doing so, have to abide by the rules.

Sucks but true.
 
With second deposit with club world i got a phone call. Telling me how to send id to them without this they wouldnt allow another deposit. So I went out and faxed them the forms and got it all set up to find out visa wouldnt work so they helped me set up instadebit account. There are a few other casinos that after few deposits hold account off till you forward id. Now after reading this forum
i always send id as i open up a new casino account and i wait till the ok comes in then make a deposit
 
Yeah Bryan I too hope someone will step up and add a little more legitimacy to this whole document thing. It seems unbelievable to me that these same casinos that are so concerned with rules and regulations are so quick to take action from US players in clear violation of US federal law. I would think they would want to take care of the customer in as smooth and expedient manner as possible so as not to draw unwanted attention to themselves by jerking customers around and getting in the "news" so to speak at sites like this. Smart money would be to keep providing, we'll keep playing, and keep it as quiet as possible until the atmosphere improves in the online world. Just another angle on this whole ridiculous thing. Sure makes the casinos look bad when they hassle the customer that wins while continually sucking up the same customers deposits no questions asked.
 
Yeah Bryan I too hope someone will step up and add a little more legitimacy to this whole document thing. It seems unbelievable to me that these same casinos that are so concerned with rules and regulations are so quick to take action from US players in clear violation of US federal law. I would think they would want to take care of the customer in as smooth and expedient manner as possible so as not to draw unwanted attention to themselves by jerking customers around and getting in the "news" so to speak at sites like this. Smart money would be to keep providing, we'll keep playing, and keep it as quiet as possible until the atmosphere improves in the online world. Just another angle on this whole ridiculous thing. Sure makes the casinos look bad when they hassle the customer that wins while continually sucking up the same customers deposits no questions asked.

This is because they can be selective about which laws to obey. Clearly, they have to obey the laws of their licencing juristiction, but this would not include the US. Publically listed companies have pulled out of the US, since it would not be wise for such a company to be seen openly flouting the laws of another country. Casinos that do take US players can do so because their licencing juristiction and software vendors have no clause preventing it, and they stand to lose a great deal of money if they simply do it themselves on the grounds of obeying laws of all countries, regardless if said countries' authorities can "get them". What is oddest, is that some casinos that accept US players against the UIGEA then quote the money laundering regulations of said USA and other countries as the reason for requiring documents, perhaps notarised. In this case, this is bollox, they have not given the true reason behind their requirements, which is all about not wanting to lose money to "dodgy players".

Club World (above) DO seem to be doing the right thing, which is a compromise between asking for documents on registration and driving away new players, and never asking till the first withdrawal.
I would like to know how much lost revenue Club World thinks this has cost them from players not making further deposits after being asked for ID after the first, yet were legitimate players, and not frauds put off by this early ID request. Other casinos seem to think following this Club World strategy would cause them to lose player revenue to such an extent that they are willing to "bend" the money laundering regulations by only requesting ID upon first withdrawal, however much the player has deposited.

As for "F U Clauses". Yes, pretty much every business has one (or more), HOWEVER, unlike online casinos, such companies can be ordered by the courts to strike out such clauses if they are deemed to be unfair, or the contract too one sided in favour of the business. UK banks have just had their own "F U Clauses" which they used to charge 25 for going overdrawn by as little as 1p ruled as reviewable under consumer "unfair consumer contract" laws. This could mean them having to refund all these "confiscations" that they have made for these various "services".

Online casinos are not answerable, for the most part, to the courts, but only to voluntary codes, such as eCogra, where they are members. These voluntary regulators, unlike courts, cannot FORCE them to pay up, but can only expel them from the scheme as a last resort.

Casinos licenced in the EU MAY be answerable to the courts for their actions, but it would take players to bring a case, or sufficient complaints to warrant the authorities to bring one on behalf of consumers, which is what has happened to our banks.
 
Very good point, vinyl. It is a double standart action by Bellerock entertainment.
 
I haven't really heard much about rival, but all of the affiliates I still communicate with, say that Bellerock requires notarized identification from literally everyone who withdraws from them, and many of them have dropped promoting Bellerock altogether because they are tired of having to apologize to people who are waiting several weeks for them to approve documents, and frequently rejecting even those who take the time to go get them notarized.

Doesn't really surprise me though, we've seen Microgamings go generally downhill with a few stellar and consistent exceptions (32red, etc) and Bellerock/Trident (who is Carmen Media owned) have had a number of issues on here as of late.
 
Club World (above) DO seem to be doing the right thing, which is a compromise between asking for documents on registration and driving away new players, and never asking till the first withdrawal.
I would like to know how much lost revenue Club World thinks this has cost them from players not making further deposits after being asked for ID after the first, yet were legitimate players, and not frauds put off by this early ID request. Other casinos seem to think following this Club World strategy would cause them to lose player revenue to such an extent that they are willing to "bend" the money laundering regulations by only requesting ID upon first withdrawal, however much the player has deposited.

I must admit that I was really pi**** after the frist deposit at ClubWorld..and the message..first send ID then you can deposit. BUT, after a few deposists and withdrawals later - that politic is really a step forward.
Did it cost them players? I don`t think so. They players (like me) still come back - cause the withdrawal is really quick. And on the other side - the amount of fraudsters (or how you say to them) in their player-database is low.
As I said in another thread. There is no need for a processing time for a withdrawal. Check the ID of the player before depositing...I think Inetbet do the same. (?). In long term you will loose players when they start to feel that the payment is on hold, because they want you to reverse your paying. And if you have any question you notice that in some (or more) casino, the word chaos and "i am just the pencilpusher here" are reaching new heights.

And so...
 
Just to update this thread:
I submitted the notarized documents to them almost two weeks ago and so far have not had confirmation that my account is ready to withdraw.
They tell me they have tried to call me on many occasions but I haven't had any missed calls or messages despite giving them my current contact details.
I submitted another withdrawal request 2 days ago, no action so far.

Obviously a 5 star service from this casino :rolleyes:
 
Problem is, once an issue is up (and active) on the boards the casino people tend to look at that and forget the PAB: things can happen a lot faster on the boards than via emails.

The other thing too is that they generally treat private issues and public issue quite differently: they drag their heels more with private issues, but they tend to be more flexible when it comes to making accommodations in order to get the thing settled. With public issues you generally get the T&Cs and not much more.

Update: FWIW, the casino reports that this has been going on for over a year now. They ask for docs, kernow says he'll send them and the casino never receives the docs. After such a long time the casino is understandably extremely reluctant to fork over the cash with out solid proof of identity.

If this were me I'd send them via Registered Mail or the like. Have you done that K? You have proof that the docs were sent and received? I've shipped a lot of valuable stuff internationally this way and know from first hand experience that it's a system that works quite well.
 
Rakesh was the rep, hasn't been around in quite a while though ... and I seem to remember something about having stepped away from the plate.

Checking ... well, yes and no. Tried to get in touch with Rakesh a while back and it appears that didn't work out.

Regardless, the point is a good one. I'll alert DV to what's going on here ... though I could swear I've already done so.
 
Davinci's has now lost alot of future revenue and new accounts over this preposterous doc requirement. I know I will never play there and I'm certain many others feel the same. I still haven't been asked for documents ever at any site I've withdrawn from, so I know that the whole issue is a scam. There is no way to really protect anyone from the casino or player in this situation and I get P.O.ed about the whole facade of "security" and "fraud protection" that these casinos purport as their reason to delay withdrawls. Real smart business decision DaVinci's, you make yourselves look extremely foolish.
 
It seems their communications are in a mess. Perhaps this is just another case (there have been many) where player have sent documents again and again, the Emails haven't bounced, yet the casino constantly claims never to have received them.

It's happened to me before, and there have been numerous complaints about this happening to others.

Registered mail is no good if their base is outside the UK, as you would be relying on their own country's postal service to get it right. If they have UK offices though, this would be the way to resolve this, it would arrive within a couple of days, and there would be proof of delivery, and they could not then claim never to have received them.

Perhaps they have already decided this player is a fraud, and are just going through the motions to make it look like a fair decision has been made.
They would have used other databases for screening before asking for notarised documents, but these government and big company databases are NOT 100% accurate, despite the fact they claim this to be so to protect their commercial interests and image.

UK persons have the right to see, and correct, the information in the vast majority of these databases, but they need to know which ones have been used, and will have to request a copy of their data (costs 10). Credit reference agencies only charge 2. Not being on the electoral roll at the registered address can also cause problems with credit and fraud checks, this can be corrected. This can happen to students, those who frequently move house (for up to a year after each move), and to those who simply fail to register at any address (a possible 1000 fine).
 
Registered mail is no good if their base is outside the UK, as you would be relying on their own country's postal service to get it right.

VM, you know I normally love your stuff but this one is a bit off IMHO.

I'm sure there are circumstances where what you say here is true, but in all fairness there are many other cases it's not true at all. In my experience if you are shipping out of any of North America into Europe or vice versa you stand a good chance of getting excellent service.

In another part of my life I make custom silver jewelry -- sorry, my jewelry site is down at the moment -- and ship this expensive stuff all over the place. 9 times out of 10 registered mail is _the_ way to go. There are obvious exceptions but you'd be surprised what a fiver will buy you in terms of tracking and verification.
 
VM, you know I normally love your stuff but this one is a bit off IMHO.

I'm sure there are circumstances where what you say here is true, but in all fairness there are many other cases it's not true at all. In my experience if you are shipping out of any of North America into Europe or vice versa you stand a good chance of getting excellent service.

In another part of my life I make custom silver jewelry -- sorry, my jewelry site is down at the moment -- and ship this expensive stuff all over the place. 9 times out of 10 registered mail is _the_ way to go. There are obvious exceptions but you'd be surprised what a fiver will buy you in terms of tracking and verification.

It depends on where the casino's base is. Places like the USA, where the mail should be good, are not going to house the offices of online casinos.

I do not know where these Rivals have their offices, but if they are in some out of the way place, this could compromise things.

In other threads, there have been cases of players waiting a golden age to receive payout checks from online casinos where these checks have been posted outside the destination country. The casinos claim this has been down to "the post". Well, if this is so, it would be just as likely to affect post in the other direction, but at the very least would make postal communications between player and casino look very poor.

Perhaps these casinos are generally lying about these delays, the old "check's in the post" syndrome of the pre-internet age, used by unscrupulous, or financially stretched, businesses to help with cashflow while making the customer believe the fault lies elsewhere.

Despite this, it should be possible to get a proof of posting, even if proper tracking turned out to be difficult.

Maybe the documents could be forwarded to Max, and then conveyed to the casino. This would provide a reliable and independent witness to the fact that documents have indeed been provided from this player to the casino. With Max already looking into this, this should not be seen as a compromise to personal information, but more an exercise in expediting the matter.
 
According to the rep this has been resolved. I'm trying to reach the OP to confirm this.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Accredited Casinos

Read about our rating system and how it's done.
Back
Top