DaVinci's Gold requesting notarized docs

kernow

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Hello all,
I've read a few threads about casinos requesting notarized docs - are they well within their rights to do so?
I'm trying to withdraw $400 (hundred not thousand!) and DaVinci's want notarized docs!
I'm in the UK - and this must cost quite a lot and seems totally excessive for a $400 withdrawal - but can I do anything about it?
I've already sent them all the usual docs - and I've never been asked for notarized docs before in many many casinos and a good few years!
Thanks in advance
 

thisisvegas

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Oct 18, 2007
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Canada
Please pm me your username and email address and I can have the security team take a look. Asking for notarized documents from Rival only happens in extreme cases so my guess is there was good reasoning behind it. There isn't a history of this going on in the past 2 years.

John
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
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Location
Saltirelandia
Kernow, do keep us posted on how this progresses. A lot of players are being hit with the notarization thing so if John is able to cut through that particular knot I think there would be a lot of interest in that.
 

kernow

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Ah, so others are having the same problem? I'll keep you posted - I've pmed him all the details...
Isn't this basically just a way of getting you to keep your money in the account (and lose it).
Always funny how they require so much information and corroboration when you try to withdraw, and yet you can deposit hassle-free. :what:
 

thisisvegas

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I don't think this has to do with any other casino or too many requests from Rival asking players for docs, especially notarized docs. We ask for docs from most players but in the cases of suspected fraud we ask for notarized docs. I don't want to accuse anybody here of that but when security asks for notarized documents usually it is a very serious issue and you can see on forums that that in 2 years this is rare and maybe the 2nd time I have ever heard of it being asked from Rival. This is not a case of the casino trying to keep funds and if it was then you should see many players on here saying the same thing.

John
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
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This wave of asking for notarized docs, locking of accounts etc. is giving the Rivals a bad image. True, this didnt happen much in the past 2 years but incidentally this is happening just when other problems have surfaced. Although these are best resolved by use of PMs, I think some explanations should also be given to allay fears that there is something wrong at this range of casinos. Well, you dont have to release any personal details, just a brief on why such things have occurred.

Over to you John.
 

kernow

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I don't think this has to do with any other casino or too many requests from Rival asking players for docs, especially notarized docs. We ask for docs from most players but in the cases of suspected fraud we ask for notarized docs. I don't want to accuse anybody here of that but when security asks for notarized documents usually it is a very serious issue and you can see on forums that that in 2 years this is rare and maybe the 2nd time I have ever heard of it being asked from Rival. This is not a case of the casino trying to keep funds and if it was then you should see many players on here saying the same thing.

John

Hi John,
Did you receive my pm? I sent it to you shortly after your original post. Thanks for helping me out with this.
 

kakata

Banned User - hyper flamming
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miami fl
Hello all,
I've read a few threads about casinos requesting notarized docs - are they well within their rights to do so?
I'm trying to withdraw $400 (hundred not thousand!) and DaVinci's want notarized docs!
I'm in the UK - and this must cost quite a lot and seems totally excessive for a $400 withdrawal - but can I do anything about it?
I've already sent them all the usual docs - and I've never been asked for notarized docs before in many many casinos and a good few years!
Thanks in advance



what about DNA? Have you been asked for?
NOOOO?
So what are u complaining about?
 

Kenny Lingus

Tard Counter
Joined
Dec 24, 2006
Location
Near Chicago, Illinois
I don't think this has to do with any other casino or too many requests from Rival asking players for docs, especially notarized docs. We ask for docs from most players but in the cases of suspected fraud we ask for notarized docs. I don't want to accuse anybody here of that but when security asks for notarized documents usually it is a very serious issue and you can see on forums that that in 2 years this is rare and maybe the 2nd time I have ever heard of it being asked from Rival. This is not a case of the casino trying to keep funds and if it was then you should see many players on here saying the same thing.

John

Ok, Mr. Rep, why don't online casinos ask for documents BEFORE accepting a deposit? And I'm not picking on Rival by any means as I've witnessed this ploy before by other types of casino operations; but IMO, this "fraud" excuse is nothing but a big pile of crap if it comes after the acceptance of a deposit and the resulting game play. It appears that if the casino benefits from fraud so be it, but ask them to payout and it becomes one for "thorough investigation". How can this practice be justifiable?
 

catrina m

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Its bad enough you have to email your drivers ID and copies of your bills that could be hijacked from an email, but to make you get these notarized!

If a brick and mortar started doing this it would fall flat on its ass in a month's time when word got out it was like applying for a bank loan to cash your win.

If you don't wan't the government regulating you why should you let an online casino act like its the govt. and enforce regulations that doesn't make sense.

If I ever get asked for notarized documents I will ABSOLUTELY quit gambling online. FOREVER

That is absurd.
 

thisisvegas

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As I stated earlier please go find a collection of complaints from users who have been asked for notarized docs from Rival casinos, they are indeed rare and I am told this is rarely exercised and only in the case of suspected fraud. These are rare cases and as much as people might want to jump on the bandwagon for shunning rivals or complaining about docs I really don't see our policies different than others from Microgaming, Playtech, and Real Time Gaming. The bottom line is if you don't like the terms and conditions then just don't play. Most places reserve the right to ask for docs/ID and this is done for numerous reasons but mostly in the name of fraud prevention. I think the comparisons to B&M casinos are unfair but once again I would expect most reputable casinos to ask for ID and they do.

If anybody has a real issue with this maybe you can PAB on it.

John
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
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John,

It's unfortunate that all these things are happening at the same time and it does seem that we are only hearing the players' side of the story. However, we are players also and will ask "Will this happen to me?". On the locked accounts, all we can see is that the accounts were locked and the decision is final. Shouldnt there be an avenue for appealing and if not why?. On the Notarized docs, it is only suspected fraud. If this proves to be true, fine and dandy and you may even confiscate the balances in the accounts. However, what happens if you screwed up and there is no fraud involved. Would you be paying back the fees for acquiring the notarized docs as the suspicion proves to be unfounded.

I am not taking you to task but I believe that these are issues in many a player's mind and if you address them correctly, it will go a long way to allaying their fears.
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
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Location
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This whole "notarized ID" business is a serious issue that is not going to go away any time soon.

On the one hand you have casinos who really do need to fight fraud and the notarized documents thing is an effective and reasonably reliable way to do that.

For instance, some of the people involved in this very thread have refused to provide the requested documents even though thousands of dollars are at stake. The casinos report that they have some evidence that those same people are involved in one kind of fraud or another. It seems perfectly reasonable to me for them to stick to their guns and demand the identity verification. This would be an example where the "notarized ID" thing is doing the job it was intended to do.

On the other hand the ID thing is obviously open to abuse. What's to keep a shady operation from demanding notarized ID for every nickel and dime a player asks to withdraw? In some cases nothing and therein lies the legitimacy of some player complaints.

So, how to tell the proper use of ID requests from abuse? It's got to be a frequency issue: if the casino asks for notarized ID from everyone all the time then they're likely abusing it. If their requests are infrequent, specific and pointed then it may well be legitimate and acceptable.

For those of you who have concerns about getting your documents done ... what can I say, in some cases it may be a problem. But let's be realistic about this: we live in an age where identity verification is a pretty common and often necessary inconvenience.

I personally have had identity documents notarized in three countries and two languages and it's never been that big a deal. Is it fun? No, of course not. Is it cheap? Not usually, but it's not outrageous either. Is it fairly straightforward, yes, generally speaking, and normally you do not have to give them detailed explanations of why you are getting it done because that's not really their business. Their business is document verification for which they are getting paid a fee so a general answer, such as "for passport purposes" or "for an international financial transaction", will usually suffice. Been there, done that.

Would I run out and do this for every $50 withdrawal? No, but then it shouldn't be necessary to do so either. Photocopies of notarized documents are often accepted. And if it really comes down to it then once in a while you may have to say "to hell with it" and scratch that casino off your list. Welcome to the bleeding edge: that's life in a risk-based, largely unregulated industry.

And yes, I'm aware that in some countries document verification _is_ a difficult and/or expensive procedure. That's a bummer, but I assure you that your particular difficulty in having this done is not going to change the casino industry's need to have it done. So talk to them about it up front, find out what they'll need and when, etc. As ever, do a little research and you'll probably save yourself some agony down the line.

Are droves of people going to start doing this now that might mouse, er, Max, has suggested they do so? No, of course not, but it is what it is so what can I say? You either do it sooner or you do it later but you almost certainly will have to do it. Your choice when and how.

Finally, for those that say things like "hey, I live in the barrio and nobody here has such documents" then I say welcome to the 21st Century: nowadays identity papers are the norm so either get some or find a new hobby. I'm not being elitist or discriminatory here, it's just reality so deal with it or don't as you see fit.
 

Casinomeister

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Ok, Mr. Rep, why don't online casinos ask for documents BEFORE accepting a deposit? And I'm not picking on Rival by any means as I've witnessed this ploy before by other types of casino operations; but IMO, this "fraud" excuse is nothing but a big pile of crap if it comes after the acceptance of a deposit and the resulting game play. It appears that if the casino benefits from fraud so be it, but ask them to payout and it becomes one for "thorough investigation". How can this practice be justifiable?

...Always funny how they require so much information and corroboration when you try to withdraw, and yet you can deposit hassle-free. :what:

This question - that seems to feed off of the pessimism that many players have - is a legitimate one, but it's easily answered.

If you have ever been in Vegas, you probably understand that the casinos there are successful mainly because of their easy access and location. You walk in - there is no check-in counter, no ID check, no dress code, it's wide open. Sure, there are signs "No Minors Allowed" but no staff checking IDs. Anyone can sit at a slot machine and feed it cash.

You can cash out coins, but in most cases it's a cash receipt which you need to bring to the cashier. No biggie - no ID.

But if your winnings are $1000 plus, then expect to produce your passport or DL, and you'll be signing forms from the US IRS.

Online is similar, asking for documentation would drastically slow down the sign-up process probably by days.

Be honest with yourself - I would guess that 99% of you would skip that casino and go to one that doesn't require ID upfront. :rolleyes:

So what are you complaining about? :D
 

vinylweatherman

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Location
United Kingdom
It would help allay fears if the process were not so secretive. It is far more secretive than is necessary to prevent copycat fraud. There should be figures compiled and released that show what percentage of players are "flagged" and have to go through extra hoops to get paid, and for what kinds of amounts. Further, there should be figures on how often the casino gets it wrong, and accuses an innocent player of fraud.

The biggest problem is not players having to produce extra information & documents, but that CS suddenly treat them like something the cat dragged in last night, rather than affording them the courtesy expected between business and customer - and this happens BEFORE any case is proven either way.

Production of documents is the norm, however, the insistence on a photo ID is not justified by the checking process available to the casino, as they have no means of verifying the photo on the document against the face of the player, since they never meet face to face. What is important is not the presence of a photo, but the nature and authority of the document itself. A GOVERNMENT issued document that gives certain rights to the holder should be good enough, photo or not, since the rights given imply the authorities have had to check that the applicant has earned them, such as a FULL drivers licence (not provisional), and a Passport (which has long had a photo anyway). Because of the lack of a national identity card system here in the UK, it is down to local government to issue such documents on request, but unfortunately they differ in form, some have a photo, and some don't. Britain is considered to be "in the 21st century", so this should not be a problem, so why is it?

Getting documents notarised in the UK should not normally be expensive, but you have to know where to go. A solicitor will usually charge a fortune, but their are cheaper ways, such as a "swearer of oaths" (Notary), who will charge around 5 per page/copy. The Notary will photocopy the document, and then attach a seal to signify they have "Notarised" it. ONLY where a request for NOTARISED documents has been made, does a photo become relevant, as the Notary will have the opportunity to meet the applicant in person, and can notarise that the photo on the document matches the applicant.

There has been a considerable shift towards demanding increasing levels of documentation from players from ALL casinos, not just Rival. SOME players are getting caught out by this because they have been playing for some time and have never had to produce documents before, and are unprepared when asked.

Players should try to make sure they have one form of PHOTO ID, and one other form of ID that independently verifies their address. This should be considered a MINIMUM. Players unable to meet this minimum MUST get themselves verified by the casino BEFORE they play, as they would be unable to comply with the routine request on withdrawal. The casino can then either pass or reject the player at that point (and casinos CANNOT OK a player, and then change their mind when they win, this would be considered rogue behaviour).

What is also needed is a guide for players in how to deal with these ID issues, especially when they have fallen foul of them, and need to know how to best go about verifying their ID without making themselves look even worse, such as thinking of adding their photo by photoshopping a non-photo ID document just to comply with the casinos request for a photo on it - this may be a foolish attempt to comply, but looks like the person knows about fraud, and makes them look more like a fraudster.
 

bellerock

Casino Representative
Joined
Dec 1, 2003
Location
South Africa
Hi All,

The demand for ID verification is growing all the time. Most reputable casinos in reputable jurisdictions are required to adhere to specific anti money laundering codes and with the release of the latest directive the requirement for verification is only going to grow.

Please note that the verification request is not only made if fraud or ML is suspected but is required as soon as any number of flags are triggered. Players must please keep in mind that when documents are requested we are not accusing them of anything untoward, we are simply meeting our AML requirements. We could lose our license if we cannot produce the required documentation for the regulators if a trigger has been activated.

Please follow VWM's advice and have the correct documentation available as it is only a matter of time before most of you will be asked by a casino for verification documents and possibly to have them notarized.

Best regards,

Belle Rock
 

kernow

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If I ever get asked for notarized documents I will ABSOLUTELY quit gambling online. FOREVER

I wouldn't do that, just don't play at casinos that have a bad rep for demanding notarized docs :)

I really don't see our policies different than others from Microgaming, Playtech, and Real Time Gaming. The bottom line is if you don't like the terms and conditions then just don't play. Most places reserve the right to ask for docs/ID and this is done for numerous reasons but mostly in the name of fraud prevention.
If anybody has a real issue with this maybe you can PAB on it.

John

I think my account was "flagged" because I logged in from more than one country at different times. This has indeed caused some concern at other software providers' casinos but I have never been asked for notarized documents. I am ready and gladly willing to supply any quantity of other documents that I can do with screenshots or scans from my own home and without cost. But asking for notarized docs for a $400 withdrawal? Come on! What kind of big fraud operation takes away $400 INCLUDING the original deposit!?

As you say, I just won't play at this software provider/group of casinos/regulatory authority again - EVER.

That's the beauty of all UK/EU regulated casinos - there is a solid regulatory base, unlike the various specs-in-the-ocean bodies.


On the Notarized docs, it is only suspected fraud. If this proves to be true, fine and dandy and you may even confiscate the balances in the accounts. However, what happens if you screwed up and there is no fraud involved. Would you be paying back the fees for acquiring the notarized docs as the suspicion proves to be unfounded.

A nice angle! Yes, I would not have nearly so much of a problem with it were that the case.


As far as the comments from the CM team go: where should I go from here?
I'm in the UK - is taking a colour photocopy of my driving license to a bank and getting them to stamp it enough? What exactly does notarizing documents entail?
Also, should I PAB about it, as thisisvegas keeps truculently suggesting?
 

kernow

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Getting documents notarised in the UK should not normally be expensive, but you have to know where to go. A solicitor will usually charge a fortune, but their are cheaper ways, such as a "swearer of oaths" (Notary), who will charge around 5 per page/copy. The Notary will photocopy the document, and then attach a seal to signify they have "Notarised" it. ONLY where a request for NOTARISED documents has been made, does a photo become relevant, as the Notary will have the opportunity to meet the applicant in person, and can notarise that the photo on the document matches the applicant.

Thanks for the comment! How do I get in touch with a swearer of oaths? (sounds like someone from the middle ages! I guess I am playing at DaVinci's Gold...:))

You can cash out coins, but in most cases it's a cash receipt which you need to bring to the cashier. No biggie - no ID.

But if your winnings are $1000 plus, then expect to produce your passport of DL, and you'll be signing forms from the US IRS.

My winnings are $400 - so I wouldn't even be ID'd by a Vegas casino? This really is rather rich behaviour in that case.
 

kernow

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(I am getting this error each time I try to PAB: "Your submission could not be processed because a security token was missing or mismatched.")
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
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Location
Saltirelandia
Sounds like it might be a cookie issue. First suggestion is to log out and log back in again.

FYI, I'll PM the CM so he knows about this ASAP. :D

As to the Notary thing ... do they have Yellow Pages in the UK? If so try looking in there, you'll probably find more of them than you can shake a stick at. Back in Canada there were more listings for Notaries then there were for garages and used cars.

As to the bank stamp thing I couldn't say, but ask the casino people. They'll know what they're willing to accept.
 

kernow

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Sounds like it might be a cookie issue. First suggestion is to log out and log back in again.

FYI, I'll PM the CM so he knows about this ASAP. :D

As to the Notary thing ... do they have Yellow Pages in the UK? If so try looking in there, you'll probably find more of them than you can shake a stick at. Back in Canada there were more listings for Notaries then there were for garages and used cars.

As to the bank stamp thing I couldn't say, but ask the casino people. They'll know what they're willing to accept.

Thanks, I did log in/out earlier but didn't work.
I've just tried again, however, and it's working now.
And as for the notaries: oh yes, silly me, there are thousands! 31 within 5 miles of my house!
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
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... there are thousands! 31 within 5 miles of my house!

Ya, that sounds about right. Don't be surprised if some of them seem a bit dodgy. After all they take money to look at a couple pieces of paper, whack them with a stamp and note it in a ledger somewhere. As long as they're up to that task who cares what their personal habits are.
 

catrina m

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I do not have a problem with producing my ID ( drivers liscense) my utility bills to prove I live where I say I do, but that should be enough.

To go find a notary public and pay them to notarize goverment issued identification is going too far.

If I won 10k, sure, I'll get my cats paw print notarized if need be, but it seems to me a clever way for a casino to stall your withdrawal.

How do you know which casino will ask for this? I have played at first web for at least 2 years, but not lately. When I finally do win a small amount back, I get hit with a document request. I still live in the same place and my name is still the same as the last documents I sent in. I wan't my withdrawal now, not 2 weeks from now. And I do not want to call support and be told they didn't receive them. It all seems like delay tactics that really makes you wan't to break out the visa and go through it all over again.

Will I have to do this every time?

I have a list of casino's I have cashed out at and trusted them. Then click2pay abandoned the US.

I thought quicktender was a good solution so when I started using it I played only from my list of trusted casinos that already had my documents.

It is growing smaller

The casinos don't trust the players, the players don't trust casino's that act funny with their money,

Who can you trust anymore?

If I get asked to notarize a govt. issued ID and resend it I will wait for govt. regulation before I play again.
 

kernow

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Well I think that I can go to my bank and get them to stamp and sign a copy of my ID for me for free.
Anyway, I'm going to try and get them to do it for me as soon as I can find somewhere with a colour photocopier.
DaVinci's have said that a bank certified document will suffice, so the PAB is more a matter of principle than anything, as hopefully the problem itself will be resolved soon.
 
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