Crown Vegas is trying to steal my winnings on a 4k royal

Thank you so much for the explanation. It was very kind of you to respond and take the time to help me to understand the difference between the two cash in limitations. Also, it never dawned on me to be careful when playing progressives. You are right, with my luck, thats when I will hit one...when I cant get paid...LOL.

Once again, thank you JPM.
Hi Jetset,

I notice that the cashout restrictions are listed on the actual email that is sent by CV. I must have used atleast a dozen of their promotional coupons and never realized the cashout limitation until Sunday, 6/1. I was just about to use my Sunday promotion when I noticed this and I wrote to Bryan immediately. That was why I asked if you wished to see the actual email, wherein this is stated. Let me know if I can be of any help.

Linda- :) )
I'm waiting to see if Bryan gets a response from CV on this - I would really like to know whether it is a widespread casino practice.

In the meantime we have written up the story and it will go out in our bulletins in the hope of encouraging other players to examine all offers CAREFULLY to ensure they do not fall prey to this sort of condition.
I've been seeing it more and more lately jetset, but mostly from little guys. I don't think I've ever seen it in any microgaming promo offer. I'm going to make it a point to notice where I see them now though, just to see if its limited to certain groups.

Glad to help Linda! Definately something to be aware of when playing, and I'm sure I'd hit the big one if I even went near a progressive game while playing one of these bonuses. That would just be the worst good luck you could have!
What vtrac is trying to say is that you should compare:
Outdated URL (Invalid) (the managers link)


You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
(taken from the cache on a computer)

Note when this document was last edited:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

The document the manager linked to was edited on May 19.
Vtrac, I think I can help you with Crown Vegas:
Please try and follow me as I explain. Vtrac, the promotion that you won the money on was QM7CA.
On May 20th, is when you were notified that you used a first time depositors bonus, yet on the email itself which I just looked at through your post above, the first line says:
*Max cashout is 10x deposit. All excess winnings will be voided.
Being that you were notified that they were not honoring your cashout on May 20th, I assume you used the promotion atleast 5 days prior to your problem. As I said, please stay with me.

Now, On May 19th, Jyde is able to prove through his links above that the document was edited on May 19th.

On May 21st, Nikki from CV posted the terms to your promotion, QM7CA. The first and second lines to the terms she posted was:
*These bonuses are for first time depositors only,
(which is the same as a sign up bonus).
*Max cashout is 10x deposit. All excess winnings will be voided.

If we go now to June 4th, Nikki is explaining the way the caps on the bonuses work. She said, and I quote, "The reason we cap it (the winnings) and this is common practice is because of the continuous high bonuses we give to existing players. We have this rule only on 100% bonuses
(not on sign up bonuses).

Whew! Now taking all this information into consideration, if your bonus was for first time depositors, as stated in CV's version of the terms, and CV stated on June 4th that first time caps on bonuses do NOT apply to first time depositors (which is the same as a sign up bonus, then why is the second line of their terms regarding your bonus "Max cashout is 10x deposit"?

Therefore, if in fact, the bonus you used was only for first time depositors there would be no reason to put that second line in about the Max Cashout! I think CV owes you some money Vtrac :) )))

A few questions here that ought to either be considered or addressed:


What it seems to me is that Vtrac took up two first time depositor's bonuses, won $$$$ on the first one, and didn't follow the rules for the second one. I have reviewed the mailer which went to the affiliate as well as a screenshot of the casino's backend showing when the coupon was created and the rules that were placed on the coupon when it was created. It is clearly a first time depositor's bonus and according to the casino's terms and conditions, this bonus may not be used if you have previously deposited. If you do, your winnings will be made void. According to the casino, vtrac's deposit has been returned to his Neteller account.

As for vtrac's screenshots, I am wondering why it has taken so long to create them and actually post them on the site. He also states on the forum - "Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of the email anymore. I copied and pasted the terms, AS THEY WERE, to a text document and deleted the email. My hotmail account has since emptied my deleted emails" and then later on he states (at WOL) "the original email would help, as it had a copy of the original terms and conditions at the bottom of it." Now, if the terms and condition were on the bottom of the mailer, (which they aren't) as he states, where does this screenshot come from?

Finally, why hasn't anyone else come forward with the same problem. Vtrac received this email from an affiliate, who I'm sure emailed a large number of players. Why is it that vtrac is seemingly the only player who received this mailer? And the only player who had this problem?

It makes absolutely no sense for the casino to change the rules concerning this coupon, especially if this is a coupon that is used widespread. One point to consider, RealTimeGaming software is NOT set up to automatically void coupons when they are not used according to terms and conditions. So it is up to the PLAYERS to ensure that they are using the coupons accordingly NOT THE CASINO.

On another note, as for the "Max Cash out 15x Deposit, excess winnings will be voided" rule, they casino places this rule on the larger bonuses. Players are not obligated to take up the bonuses if they are not happy with the conditions. If a player wins the progressive jackpot using one of these coupons, then there max cashout rule on the winnings will be voided, not the excess winnings.
I have a major problem with this as well. Something is not kosher.

Vtrac, do you mean to tell us that three weeks ago, you visited exactly EIGHT sites the entire week?

Furthermore, why is Hotmail not one of them? If this email was sent to you through Hotmail, the only way it could have been stored on your cache would be if you had visited Hotmail. And had you clicked on a link in Hotmail, you would have been taken to the link - with a HOTMAIL FRAME and redirect.

It looks pretty damn clear to me that this computer is used for the purpose of gambling only. Which is unusual in itself.

I'm with Bryan. Though I'm still a bit skeptical about Nikki's response as well.
I don't know how you can say that I requested two first time bonuses. I would not have gone through all this trouble if I was in the wrong. I would have just kicked myself and moved on.

Although I suppose I an incorrect, I had thought that CV sometimes includes the T&C's at the bottom of the mailers, although that doesn't prevent me from checking the website to make sure they correspond. The screenshot comes from my Temporary Internet Files cache.

Bryan, Spearmaster:
The screenshots are from my laptop, where I originally read the email. My laptop is configured to use Outlook Express to login to hotmail and read the mails. That way, I just open up Outlook Express and see the emails, without having to actually loading up a browser, and typing my login info. It is a matter of convenience to me. In OE using hotmail, there are two main folders - a local folder and the online hotmail version. Unless I copy emails from the online hotmail version to the local folder, they stay online. So when I click delete to an incoming email, it goes to the online delete of hotmails (which get automatically emptied every few days or so). This is why you don't see on my histories list.

Now, why did I take this long to get this screenshot? As you can see from my history, the last entry before "Today" was "Two Weeks Ago." What happened to last week? Well, two weeks ago, my laptop died. I finally got it back up and quickly put it in offline mode before searching through the history. Otherwise, it would have updated the site with the T&C's with the new version. If you still don't believe that, then here's an email I sent to Slycin on the 22nd of May:

<, <, <, ----- Original Message -----
<, <, <, From: Victor T
<, <, <, To:
<, <, <, Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 3:01 AM
<, <, <, Subject: Help with Crown Vegas
<, <, <,
<, <, <,
<, <, <, Thanks for your offer to help. I really have presented
<,everything I
<, <, <,have
<, <, <, for my case on WOL and casinomeister. Anything you can do would
<, <,really
<, <, <,be
<, <, <, appreciated.
<, <, <,
<, <, <, I think I have one last hope. I did open the email on my laptop
<, <,last
<, <, <,week,
<, <, <, and visited CV's site to review the T&Cs. So I believe the
<, <, <,T&C's
<, <, <, that I saw will be available on my browser's temporary files
<, <, <, However, to top off my incredibuly bad luck this week, my laptop
<, <, <,also
<, <, <, died. I'm in the process of seeing if I can recover the data
<,off my
<, <, <,laptop.
<, <, <, So perhaps I can come up with the original T&C website for
<, <,promo,
<, <, <,but
<, <, <, who knows..
<, <, <,
<, <, <, Let me know what I need to do to get this matter straightened
<, <, <,
<, <, <, Thanks,
<, <, <, Victor

Yes, this laptop is used for gaming online. I don't like having a bunch of extraneous software on my main computer. I think that is my prerogative if I choose to do that.

Here are a few things that I realized:
1.) I probably didn't receive the email around May 12-13 as I had previously thought. It is obvious from:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
that I had read the T&C's at CV's site on the 16th. That particular HTML page was last modified on 4/2. Why did they need to modify it again on the 19th?
2. I may have recieved the email in early April, but somehow missed it until a month later. This is possible, since I can get 20 emails a day to that account sometimes. However, I'm generally good about keeping up with my emails, so I don't know.

I don't think anyone else has come forward with this same problem is because probably no one else won a big sum. I am fully convinced that had I NOT hit a royal and only won 200-300, I would have been paid promptly like my first time. I am also fully convinced that CV changed the rules because of my cashout. It probably would have been changed on the 15th had another player hit a royal and cashed out on the 14th.

I'm not in the business of trying to steal money that is not rightfully mine. Prior to this experience, I thought CV was wonderful. I had never gotten paid out so quickly and effortlessly for a win at an RTG before. Now they're showing their roots. The truth will come out. It is only a matter of time.

(Message edited by vtrac on June 06, 2003)
OK, I noticed something odd here. The links that are from vtrac's IE cache from back in April or May are from the same internet address (Outdated URL (Invalid) ) that the CV rep posted here last month.

The problem with this is that it appears that this link was setup on May 21st to show us the coupon details and is not the regular link that is included with the promos sent thru email.

The emails have links in the coupons as: Outdated URL (Invalid) for example. When CV first posted that other link, I fooled with the URL to see if it was a mirror site for their webpage or something and found that there was nothing else on there. Also,I tried pasting the URL on to
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
(after removing the part) to see if it showed up there and it didn't.

I'd love to see someone else come up with the original email so we'd know once and for all
Hi everyone,
I just called CV and questioned whether coupon number QM7CA is still usable or did it expire. I spoke with a very nice gentleman, and he said while it is still an active promotion, that it is for first time users only.
Bryan, I still think something is wrong with this whole scenario. I went to their site as if I were a new player and clicked on their first time promotional coupons and read the rules. At no time do they mention a cap on how much you can win. So why was a cap stated on this first time promotional offer only? Also, there is a section
on their homepage where it says to go here to read our "terms and conditions". When you click on that, you go to a page that says "Error, etc." and there is not any terms and conditions. Why would a casino not have a full listing of their terms and conditions available for you to read?
I am not very computer savvy, maybe someone can help me with this? Thanks, Linda
Linda, what was the URL that you were using when you got the error message trying to read the T&C page? I tried the T&C link on a number of different pages on their website and it pulled it up ok each time.

I was on CV's website homepage. At the very bottom it said click here to see our complete list of terms and conditions. I clicked on it, and up came a blank white page with "Error, etc" on it. I hope this helps. JPM, I know I can ask you questions that most people would think are ridiculous and must think I am stupid, but here a URL the address that you type in the toolbar on top of your screen. For example,
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
Thanks JPM, I am trying hard to learn how to become more computer literate.
Hi Linda,

Yes the URL (universal resource locator, I believe) is the address in your browser. For instance, the one I look at when I check the T&C page on the CV website is
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I just tried it now to get this URL and it worked ok. Must be some type of error with your browser.
Thank you very much for once again helping me and answering my question. You are most kind.
I get embarrassed asking such questions, however, 4 years ago I had a terrible brain injury and am trying very hard to go on with my life even though my memory and my learning abilities were severely damaged. Its quite ironic actually, I was in the Tropicana casino and the Air Conditioning vent cover fell from the ceiling and hit me on my head. Figures that my injury should have to do with Thanks again to you and everyone who always take the time to answer questions that most 10 year olds know the answers to. Your kindness is a Godsend. Most people would just call me a moron and ignore me. That has happened before and it makes me feel even worse. Thank you again, and thanks to everyone on this forum who helps me. God Bless.
Wow that's awful Linda, I'm so sorry to hear about that. I hope at least that you got a nice settlement from their very deep pockets. Feel free to ask any 'silly' questions you'd like! As someone said once before, the only dumb questions are the ones not asked.
Bryan, Jetset, spearmaster:

I've presented my evidence, answered your questions, and would really like to hear what you guys have to say.
Okay, my thoughts.

It obvious that this bonus, or coupon number is only for first time deposits only. As it was mentioned in this thread, the coupon is still active. Crown Vegas produced a backend screenshot which illustrates this.

So the question is why Vtrac played this coupon?
Was it mistakenly or unknowingly?

What I don't get is this case has gotten a lot of exposure. It's been posted at WOL which gets quite a bit of traffic as well as here. With this type of exposure, I was expecting a number of other similar complaints. But there hasn't been any.

I've also made inquiries to other webmasters to come up with the "flyer" Vtrac received...and nothing.

So what happened? I'm thinking that the affiliate may have doctored the "flyer" that was sent out; the one that Vtrac received and used. But that would not make any sense since it makes the gameplay null and void, thus the affiliate would make zilch, and players would get miffed and alienated. Doesn't make sense.

Or perhaps vtrac mistakenly used this coupon and tried to cover up his tracks. This is not a good scenerio because this would imply that vtrac tried to cheat the casino.

So I'm a bit at a loss. It still seems odd to me that this is the only player that received this. It's unfortunate that no one else came up with the same email since that would have been more or less conclusive.
Bryan: I understand that is what the coupon currently says. Why is it impossible that CV doctored that screen shot or changed their backend software to reflect the "new user bonus."

Sure, lets say the coupon code always said new user only on it. Then the following must be true:
1. I played the coupon code mistakenly
2. For no reason whatsoever, the HTML file that describes the coupon code on CV's site was modified on 5/19.
3. For no reason whatsoever, the >,br<, tag for the new player only line is capitalized.
4. I somehow doctored THREE screenshots, showing the same URL as CV used for the promo, showing the same file creation date, showing the access date of the 5/16, etc.

You're wondering why no one came up with the email. Is it because it was sent out two months ago or is it because I'm tne only one who got it. Which makes more sense? If I made all of this up, I would think at least someone would forward you a copy of the email showing you that I'm a big fat liar. But maybe I'm the only one in the whole world that got this email, and Crown Vegas created this coupon code just for me.

Bryan, all I want you to know is that you are being lied to by RTG and Crown Vegas. They have put a sheet over your head and you're accepting it. I know without a single doubt that I am telling the truth, and it burns me to see this act of theivery take place.

From my point of view, I've got an absurd amount of evidence pointing my way, and Crown Vegas has a single backend SS that looks easily doctored. What will it take, Bryan? Want a GHOST image of my laptop's harddisk so you can see my cache files for yourself? Its not so much about my losses anymore, but about the fact that you're letting RTG and CV take advantage of you.
Hi Vtrac,

I note your frustration. RTG or CV has no sheet over my head. I'm just pointing out some things that need to be addressed. There have been shitloads of people who have been reading this thread here and at WOL. Why hasn't anyone else come up with the same email? This affiliate was more than likely one of the larger ones; so perhaps thousands of players received this email. Yet not one of them has produced a copy besides you.

Right now it seems like a case of he said, she said. I know you have the screen shots. I just want to see something from a third or fourth party.

I'll even inquire about this in my next newsletter. Perhaps that will turn up something.

Any other comments??? Spear? Jetset? Rainfall?

(Message edited by admin on June 10, 2003)

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