Yep, I'll have to do it from home, do PM's here allow attachments? It should follow the b/m game to the tee, it's a copyrighted game, I don't think wagerworks can change it, they just lease it from IGT.
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Cracking the slot reels - Here you go!
- Thread starter steinhaug
- Start date
Yep, I'll have to do it from home, do PM's here allow attachments? It should follow the b/m game to the tee, it's a copyrighted game, I don't think wagerworks can change it, they just lease it from IGT.
Here is a larger spin amount on Thunderstruck $45 (max) wagering. I will we waiting some time to get a bunch of theese before I post next time.
Attached is the data and screenshot. Note the data has some more info now from my parsing:
reel positions|freespin(bool)|spin name|win amount|win lines
Attached is the data and screenshot. Note the data has some more info now from my parsing:
reel positions|freespin(bool)|spin name|win amount|win lines
Maximum win combination "Loaded" when playing all 25-lines
This is the highest possible win at Loaded playing all 25 lines. Of course it has the 5 wilds win on one of the lines, but it is also interesting
that you can also hit five of the second highest paysymbols (girls) with *3 wild multiplier.
(W= wild symbol)
H H W C H
Y W Y W Y
W Y B Y W
Total win :10608
Scatter win:0
Line 1:180
Line 2:24
Line 3:0
Line 4:0
Line 5:7000
Line 6:0
Line 7:0
Line 8:0
Line 9:15
Line 10:5
Line 11:0
Line 12:0
Line 13:180
Line 14:240
Line 15:2400
Line 16:180
Line 17:0
Line 18:0
Line 19:180
Line 20:0
Line 21:24
Line 22:180
Line 23:0
Line 24:0
Line 25:0
This is the highest possible win at Loaded playing all 25 lines. Of course it has the 5 wilds win on one of the lines, but it is also interesting
that you can also hit five of the second highest paysymbols (girls) with *3 wild multiplier.
(W= wild symbol)
H H W C H
Y W Y W Y
W Y B Y W
Total win :10608
Scatter win:0
Line 1:180
Line 2:24
Line 3:0
Line 4:0
Line 5:7000
Line 6:0
Line 7:0
Line 8:0
Line 9:15
Line 10:5
Line 11:0
Line 12:0
Line 13:180
Line 14:240
Line 15:2400
Line 16:180
Line 17:0
Line 18:0
Line 19:180
Line 20:0
Line 21:24
Line 22:180
Line 23:0
Line 24:0
Line 25:0
Microgaming?
I'm wondering whether Microgaming has anything to say to this topic. Weighted reels in online 5reel video slots are something uncommon, and I'm wondering why this thread doesn't get more attention.
Brian, if you have some time during the renovation, could you please ask somebody at MG about this issue?
I'm wondering whether Microgaming has anything to say to this topic. Weighted reels in online 5reel video slots are something uncommon, and I'm wondering why this thread doesn't get more attention.
Brian, if you have some time during the renovation, could you please ask somebody at MG about this issue?
I would think not, for them to go down to grass roots levels and talk to simple players as us would probably just look un-professional for them since they would be pounded with questions from us anyway. They would most likely need a team of lawyers to forulate their statement not to start raving fires between the players in here for some weak sentence or whatever. there are several camps in here, and most likely one or two camps would be triggered on something.
Let Brian have a chat with them, that sounds like a much better idea. Then he can report in his own words, and they would be free from charges,
It is also a mystery to me why this has not caused a major riot yet. Maybe slots people are not so aware or care about this. Gambling authorities like WizardOfOdds etc. does also not care about slots. If his BJ card was weighted I think it would be another matter...
I am working on Cleopatra now, the first non-MG slot. And I can already tell you now that it is not weighted and IGT knows the exact maths of 5-reel slots and can also calculate the effect of free spins. They seems to be ahead of many online software providers even though it is actually not that advanced math. I know this because I was mailed some intersting documents from IGT.
Maybe slot people do not know or care, but it is interesting that they really seem to like the non-weighted slots. When Thunderstruck came it was huge succes and people also like IGT slots (I do!).
I would assume that this thread is brought to the coffetable up for discussion especially in MG-HQ, that doesn't mean that they will interact in this thread. It could just be that their system is fair, in that case this thread will infact strengthen their software since it's tested to the max. This would infact make everybody extremely happy I would think,
Confirmed
I can confirm the above payout% except for $5000 which is 90.65%, but that was only a typo. 90.8% is for $6000.
Base payout (i.e jackpot would be $1000) is 90.09%.
And that means that Lotsaloot is likely not weighted.
Updated analyzer is attached.
I can confirm the above payout% except for $5000 which is 90.65%, but that was only a typo. 90.8% is for $6000.
Base payout (i.e jackpot would be $1000) is 90.09%.
And that means that Lotsaloot is likely not weighted.
Updated analyzer is attached.
Here are some more spins, went for a smaller sample size this to get the overview.
Dont mind the first line on 5 reel drive, the one with rp:1, this is due to an empty line in the datafile.
- 5 Reel Drive
- Loaded
- Oriental Fortune
- Reel Strike
Dont mind the first line on 5 reel drive, the one with rp:1, this is due to an empty line in the datafile.
aka23
Dormant account
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2006
- Location
- Planet Earth
For Spectacular, I consistently get results matching your original post with the missing symbol 14 being empty. I am using HTTPAnalyzer, rather than HTTPWatch. I recall that HTTPWatch requires upgrading to the professional version (pay version) to view content on most web sites, but I am not certain about that.
I have a question about the B&M version of Enchanted Unicorn.
On the WagerWorks version the rules say retriggers only allowed up to a total
of 180 free spins. But I can not find this wierd rule in the B&M version papers I have on " Enchanted Unicorn". Anyone here that has played it live and can remember seeing this wierd rule?
For payout% this rule is negligible though.
Zoozie
On the WagerWorks version the rules say retriggers only allowed up to a total
of 180 free spins. But I can not find this wierd rule in the B&M version papers I have on " Enchanted Unicorn". Anyone here that has played it live and can remember seeing this wierd rule?
For payout% this rule is negligible though.
Zoozie
SlotsWizard
Dormant account
- Joined
- May 11, 2006
- Location
- North of Antarctica
I've played that game at a couple of B&Ms - but I didn't even know that it had a free spins feature! I thought its only feature was where you get the treasure chest on reels 1 and 5, which is similar to Chain Mail's bonus round. How on earth do you get the free spins? Obviously it must be pretty difficult because I played that game quite a bit and never got them once!
Anyway.... that's not why I came to this thread. I was actually going to put my thoughts in about the weighting of the 5-line 5-reel slots. I don't really see anything wrong with having 1 symbol on each reel, weighted, for this particular kind of game (more on that in a moment). Three things:
1. They were created back in the day, so they are probably similar to 3-reelers which of course use weighting. Plus, I don't think many people play these games much anyway.
2. There's no difference between having symbol A weighted to appear at a 5:1 ratio compared to symbol B, versus having an unweighted reel strip with five symbol A's and one symbol B.
3. The reason why this can only work for this kind of game is because there are no scatters. I think that's the key. Weighting wouldn't work if there were scatter symbols, because they appear 3 times as often as the payline symbols (you could weight them but it wouldn't be as effective as a non-scatter game).
So, that's my theory... I'm not sure if it's correct, it's just a hunch.
I've played that game at a couple of B&Ms - but I didn't even know that it had a free spins feature! I thought its only feature was where you get the treasure chest on reels 1 and 5, which is similar to Chain Mail's bonus round. How on earth do you get the free spins? Obviously it must be pretty difficult because I played that game quite a bit and never got them once!
1. They were created back in the day, so they are probably similar to 3-reelers which of course use weighting. Plus, I don't think many people play these games much anyway.
2. There's no difference between having symbol A weighted to appear at a 5:1 ratio compared to symbol B, versus having an unweighted reel strip with five symbol A's and one symbol B.
3. The reason why this can only work for this kind of game is because there are no scatters. I think that's the key. Weighting wouldn't work if there were scatter symbols, because they appear 3 times as often as the payline symbols (you could weight them but it wouldn't be as effective as a non-scatter game).
So, that's my theory... I'm not sure if it's correct, it's just a hunch.
Sorry, my mistake. I was talking about "Cleopatra"! But I wrote "Enchanted Unicorn by mistake"
2. Yes, you this is correct.
3. "Five Reel Drive" have scatters and is still weighted, so you are a little wrong here.
Bonus games
Three or more Sphinx symbols in any position on any reel initiate the Cleopatra Free Spin Bonus. The game automatically plays 15 free spins at triple the pays based on the original wager. 3 or more scatter Sphinx symbols during the bonus game re-triggers the bonus and you are awarded an additional 15 free spins. The bonus ends when the free spin meter reaches 0 or 999 free bonus spins have been played. You are then shown the total win for the bonus, credits added to the credit meter, taken back to the base game and any line and scatter pays from the initiating play are then added to the credit meter.This bonus feature accounts for up to 9% of the total return for this game.
Three or more Sphinx symbols in any position on any reel initiate the Cleopatra Free Spin Bonus. The game automatically plays 15 free spins at triple the pays based on the original wager. 3 or more scatter Sphinx symbols during the bonus game re-triggers the bonus and you are awarded an additional 15 free spins. The bonus ends when the free spin meter reaches 0 or 999 free bonus spins have been played. You are then shown the total win for the bonus, credits added to the credit meter, taken back to the base game and any line and scatter pays from the initiating play are then added to the credit meter.This bonus feature accounts for up to 9% of the total return for this game.
Mousey
Ueber Meister Mouse
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2004
- Location
- Up$hitCreek
First off, most of this is all waaay over my head. :notworthy However, I do greatly appreciate the hard work, particularly Zoozie and kimss, and your sharing all this info with the forum. Payout percentages per slot is highly interesting and appreciated, and is much more info than we receive from the casinos. Perhaps when all is said and done, a list of slots (and clones) w/payout percentages could be shared?
And the fact that 5 reelers are weighted, while it doesn't surprise me, doesn't sit well with me as a player.
And again, thank you all.
And the fact that 5 reelers are weighted, while it doesn't surprise me, doesn't sit well with me as a player.
And again, thank you all.
Thank you. Where do you have this information from? But if it is true we know that the IGT games are not identical in the B&M and online version. What a shame. I am still examing the reel on Cleopatra. Will return later.
When I played 5-reel freespin in Australia and LV I never read about this 'max number of free spins' allowed though I did read the rules. It does not mean much because it almost never happens, but it is still a wierd rule.
SlotsWizard
Dormant account
- Joined
- May 11, 2006
- Location
- North of Antarctica
Thank you Zoozie! I guess my theory was just that, a theory.
I haven't checked, but is "What a Hoot" weighted as well? I like that game, and it has scatters too. I have a hunch that it's weighted. It seems like they only weighted the non-feature slots?
I wonder if the reason for that is because it was faster to develop by weighting the symbols instead of making a long, unweighted reel strip?
I haven't checked, but is "What a Hoot" weighted as well? I like that game, and it has scatters too. I have a hunch that it's weighted. It seems like they only weighted the non-feature slots?
I wonder if the reason for that is because it was faster to develop by weighting the symbols instead of making a long, unweighted reel strip?
Rusty
Banned User - repetitive flaming
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2006
- Location
- Manchester UK
What a fantastic thread, how did I miss it?
This maybe the most important thread ever posted here.
The reason that reel weighting is unacceptable is because there is absolutely no way of knowing the true % payout without knowing exactly how the reels are weighted.
Also this weighting could be live and dynamic.
Infact that is one good reason to weight a 5 reel slot.
It is really NOT difficult to design a slot where the reels are NOT weighted and have it well balanced.
If there is 1 Wild symbol on a 30 symbol reel I want it to have a 1 in 30 chance of landing on line 1.
That is a fair game.
The only way the payout % of a slot should be determined is through the paytable (adjusted to reflect the probability of each win).
Again, fantastic informative thread and special thanks to the main contributors.
I will read on with interest.
This maybe the most important thread ever posted here.
The reason that reel weighting is unacceptable is because there is absolutely no way of knowing the true % payout without knowing exactly how the reels are weighted.
Also this weighting could be live and dynamic.
Infact that is one good reason to weight a 5 reel slot.
It is really NOT difficult to design a slot where the reels are NOT weighted and have it well balanced.
If there is 1 Wild symbol on a 30 symbol reel I want it to have a 1 in 30 chance of landing on line 1.
That is a fair game.
The only way the payout % of a slot should be determined is through the paytable (adjusted to reflect the probability of each win).
Again, fantastic informative thread and special thanks to the main contributors.
I will read on with interest.
SlotsWizard
Dormant account
- Joined
- May 11, 2006
- Location
- North of Antarctica
I do agree with you there - it should operate like video poker. How can they expect us to hack, reverse-engineer, or analyze a game if they don't provide us with everything we need to be able to do so accurately?
From an analysis standpoint, it would be much better to have an unweighted reel strip versus a weighted one (assuming the weights are unknown).
And... I shouldn't really have said "us" since I personally haven't been anything more than an observer in this thread ... so by "us" I mean Zoozie, kimss, aka23, brianzz and gerilege.
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It is weighted as well, and so are: Gophers Gold ,Crazy Chameleons ,Oriental Fortune
Brianzz and gerilege has been helping as well.
Need more data for 5reeldrive
I extrapolated the weighted results, but the overall payout is very sensitive to the scatter payout and the weights around scatters.
First of all I assumed (learned the hard way) that the real positions you posted are for the middle line. (Either top or bottom line would produce too high scatter payout). But I need more exact data near the scatter symbols. For the line winnings it doesn't really matter. But the below results are not accurate regarding scatter wins because of the sample size:
Analyzing weighted 5 reel drive:
Number of spins: 248832
Total line win as multiples of total bet per spin: 186200.99473494824
Scatter win: 66046.05549368466
Payout ratio: 1.0137243209419724
I don't think that the line wins will change a lot, but the scatter wins will.
Just to illustrate how does weighting influence the payout, I reduced the probability of a scatter at 3rd row on reel1 (i.e. only one position of the three possible on only one reel of the fice were reduced from ~10 to ~5 percent!!!) to the half of what you gave, and:
Analyzing 5 reel drive:
Number of spins: 248832
Total line win as multiples of total bet per spin: 185607.6903637479
Scatter win: 51896.985657074656
Payout ratio: 0.9544780254180434
I extrapolated the weighted results, but the overall payout is very sensitive to the scatter payout and the weights around scatters.
First of all I assumed (learned the hard way) that the real positions you posted are for the middle line. (Either top or bottom line would produce too high scatter payout). But I need more exact data near the scatter symbols. For the line winnings it doesn't really matter. But the below results are not accurate regarding scatter wins because of the sample size:
Analyzing weighted 5 reel drive:
Number of spins: 248832
Total line win as multiples of total bet per spin: 186200.99473494824
Scatter win: 66046.05549368466
Payout ratio: 1.0137243209419724
I don't think that the line wins will change a lot, but the scatter wins will.
Just to illustrate how does weighting influence the payout, I reduced the probability of a scatter at 3rd row on reel1 (i.e. only one position of the three possible on only one reel of the fice were reduced from ~10 to ~5 percent!!!) to the half of what you gave, and:
Analyzing 5 reel drive:
Number of spins: 248832
Total line win as multiples of total bet per spin: 185607.6903637479
Scatter win: 51896.985657074656
Payout ratio: 0.9544780254180434
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The reelpositions are the accual position on the reels, and for all three symbols not the middle symbol. A zero (0) would mean that the reel is in its first possition showing the three first symbols from the top. First number is reel 1 from top to bottom, next is second reel and lastly the third number is the final reel.
I also have the data for the symbols on each reel, however this data is meaningsless and why I dropped it in the text file. I can regenerate the text files with more data if someone would have interest in this. I can also set a flash casino to do 10.000 spins, however the data from my spins clearly shows that the reels are weighted.
Breaking news
I guess I have it now. After experiencing problems with the scatter payout I realized that if the reels are weighted, winlines DO matter. You can't simplify the analysis to one winline any more. I try to explain it. Basically it's because the symbols are not equally likely on different positions on a reel. With other words the fact that a symbol has double weighting on reel1 at middle position means that the symbol below it will have double probability of landing on bottom position on reel1. And 5reel drive has only one payline starting from the middle position. So analyzing different individual winlines will lead to different payout, and you have to analyze all paylines.
Take the following imaginary reel segment for the first reel, x means the weighting, so if there's 12 symbols on a reel, 2x means 2/12 chance, 1x means 1/12 chance.
2x 0.2x 1x 0.1x 1x
Pie, Dice, Wheel, Scatter, Yellow truck
If that weighting is for the middle reel, than the wheel will be in middle position with 1/12 chance, at bottom position with 0.2*(1/12) chance, and at top position with 0.1*(1/12) chance. But please note that middle position on reel 1 is crossed by only one payline, but top and bottom positions are crossed by 4 paylines each. So if you only measure the middle straight payline with that weighting, you will get false results, because you calculate the wheel on reel1 on a winline with 1/12 (=0.0833) probability. In fact it is 1/12 probability on the middle straight winline, 4*(0.2)/12 probability on the bottom, and similarly 4*(0.1)/12 on the top. That means that the real probability for the Wheel being on first reel on a winline is:
(1/12 + 0.8/12 + 0.4/12)/9 ~= 0.02 instead of the above 0.0833.
I hope it was clear. After finding that out, I went back to a version of my program with all winlines, set the winlunes up for middle position weighting, and the results are much accurate I guess:
Number of spins: 248832
Total line win: 1541986.3517717584
Scatter win: 66046.05549368466
Total win as multiplies of total bet: 171331.81686352871
Payout ratio: 0.9539684299335028
But it would be still interesting to see a larger sample.
The attached file has two versions of the calculation, one with all winlines included (method analyze1), and another with only a single winline (method analyze). Furthermore I added the weights from kimss (weightreel), and a uniform weighting (weightreel1). You can easily switch between the reel weightings by exchanging their names. It's funny to see that the two methods give the same result in case of uniform reels, but differ in case of weighted reels.
I guess I have it now. After experiencing problems with the scatter payout I realized that if the reels are weighted, winlines DO matter. You can't simplify the analysis to one winline any more. I try to explain it. Basically it's because the symbols are not equally likely on different positions on a reel. With other words the fact that a symbol has double weighting on reel1 at middle position means that the symbol below it will have double probability of landing on bottom position on reel1. And 5reel drive has only one payline starting from the middle position. So analyzing different individual winlines will lead to different payout, and you have to analyze all paylines.
Take the following imaginary reel segment for the first reel, x means the weighting, so if there's 12 symbols on a reel, 2x means 2/12 chance, 1x means 1/12 chance.
2x 0.2x 1x 0.1x 1x
Pie, Dice, Wheel, Scatter, Yellow truck
If that weighting is for the middle reel, than the wheel will be in middle position with 1/12 chance, at bottom position with 0.2*(1/12) chance, and at top position with 0.1*(1/12) chance. But please note that middle position on reel 1 is crossed by only one payline, but top and bottom positions are crossed by 4 paylines each. So if you only measure the middle straight payline with that weighting, you will get false results, because you calculate the wheel on reel1 on a winline with 1/12 (=0.0833) probability. In fact it is 1/12 probability on the middle straight winline, 4*(0.2)/12 probability on the bottom, and similarly 4*(0.1)/12 on the top. That means that the real probability for the Wheel being on first reel on a winline is:
(1/12 + 0.8/12 + 0.4/12)/9 ~= 0.02 instead of the above 0.0833.
I hope it was clear. After finding that out, I went back to a version of my program with all winlines, set the winlunes up for middle position weighting, and the results are much accurate I guess:
Number of spins: 248832
Total line win: 1541986.3517717584
Scatter win: 66046.05549368466
Total win as multiplies of total bet: 171331.81686352871
Payout ratio: 0.9539684299335028
But it would be still interesting to see a larger sample.
The attached file has two versions of the calculation, one with all winlines included (method analyze1), and another with only a single winline (method analyze). Furthermore I added the weights from kimss (weightreel), and a uniform weighting (weightreel1). You can easily switch between the reel weightings by exchanging their names. It's funny to see that the two methods give the same result in case of uniform reels, but differ in case of weighted reels.
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