Cracking the slot reels - Here you go!

[sdaddy]

Got it!

I figured out the problem, and everything checks out now.

I was using 4562280 as the number of spins per jackpot cycle. That's actually the total number of reel combinations, but out of that number there will be eight combinations that will give the jackpot (because 4 of the reels have 2 wild symbols).

So that means there are now only 285142.5 spins per jackpot cycle, which gives an amount wagered of $712856.

That's now very close to the value of $713,024 obtained earlier using the Slotcharts data.

I think this is some solid confirmation that zoozie's slot analyzer is dead on.

 

[sdaddy]

...there will be eight combinations that will give the jackpot (because 4 of the reels have 2 wild symbols).

Sorry, that's a typo. I meant to say 16 jackpot combinations (2*2*2*2).

That's what I used in my analysis above, so nothing changes.

 

[nnguyensct]

Hello from the new member

Hello everyone!!!

 

[KasinoKing]

Hello everyone!!!

Strange way to enter the forum - bumping an old thread!

Never mind - welcome and enjoy!

KK

 

[steinhaug]

Cashapillar

Thought I'd keep this in the same thread. Noticed a few of you wanted the reels for Cashapillar, which is pretty impossible to do visually since they are long ones! So here they are.

Cashapillar:

Overview:
Reel 1: 79 symbols
Reel 2: 78 symbols
Reel 3: 74 symbols
Reel 4: 94 symbols
Reel 5: 94 symbols

Main game reels:

Reel 1: 0,0,0,0,0,5,7,1,9,3,6,1,7,5,9,3,7,1,9,3,5,7,1,3,10,5,7,9,3,11,7,9,3,1,7,5,3,9,1,7,3,9,1,5,3,7,9,5,3,1,7,2,5,3,9,1,3,7,9,1,5,3,9,7,1,5,9,7,8,1,9,7,5,4,9,7,5,1,9
Reel 2: 0,0,0,0,0,2,8,9,10,2,8,1,2,8,7,10,8,2,6,8,10,2,6,8,10,2,4,8,10,2,8,10,4,2,10,8,5,10,2,4,3,6,4,2,6,4,8,2,6,10,4,6,10,4,8,6,4,10,2,4,6,10,4,6,8,4,2,11,6,4,8,6,10,8,6,10,4,6
Reel 3: 0,0,0,0,0,9,3,5,7,3,1,9,5,10,3,7,6,5,3,9,7,2,9,5,8,10,3,9,7,5,10,3,7,5,9,3,7,5,9,7,3,9,7,3,5,9,3,7,11,9,7,5,9,3,5,7,3,9,5,7,3,5,7,9,4,7,5,9,3,7,5,9,3,5
Reel 4: 0,0,0,0,0,6,8,7,2,11,9,1,8,5,11,9,2,7,6,10,4,2,8,10,6,7,2,9,10,8,3,10,2,4,6,8,10,6,4,8,6,2,10,4,8,6,10,4,6,8,2,10,8,4,6,8,2,10,6,4,8,2,4,6,10,11,8,6,10,2,4,10,8,4,10,6,8,4,6,2,4,10,2,8,4,6,10,4,6,2,10,4,8,2
Reel 5: 0,0,0,0,0,7,5,9,8,7,9,1,7,9,6,7,9,5,7,8,9,1,7,9,5,7,9,4,5,8,7,6,10,1,7,5,3,7,9,5,7,9,6,1,7,9,6,8,5,7,9,10,8,3,7,11,9,5,7,9,1,7,6,9,7,5,9,7,5,9,10,3,5,9,7,1,11,9,7,5,9,10,3,9,5,10,2,9,5,7,3,9,5,7

Freespin reels

Reel 1: 0,0,0,0,0,5,7,1,9,3,6,1,7,5,9,3,7,1,9,3,5,7,1,3,10,5,7,9,3,12,7,9,3,1,7,5,3,9,1,7,3,9,1,5,3,7,9,5,3,1,7,2,5,3,9,1,3,7,9,1,5,3,9,7,1,5,9,7,8,1,9,7,5,4,9,7,5,1,9
Reel 2: 0,0,0,0,0,2,8,9,10,2,8,1,2,8,7,10,8,2,6,8,10,2,6,8,10,2,4,8,10,2,8,10,4,2,10,8,5,10,2,4,3,6,4,2,6,4,8,2,6,10,4,6,10,4,8,6,4,10,2,4,6,10,4,6,8,4,2,12,6,4,8,6,10,8,6,10,4,6
Reel 3: 0,0,0,0,0,9,3,5,7,3,1,9,5,10,3,7,6,5,3,9,7,2,9,5,8,10,3,9,7,5,10,3,7,5,9,3,7,5,9,7,3,9,7,3,5,9,3,7,12,9,7,5,9,3,5,7,3,9,5,7,3,5,7,9,4,7,5,9,3,7,5,9,3,5
Reel 4: 0,0,0,0,0,6,8,7,2,12,9,1,8,5,12,9,2,7,6,10,4,2,8,10,6,7,2,9,10,8,3,10,2,4,6,8,10,6,4,8,6,2,10,4,8,6,10,4,6,8,2,10,8,4,6,8,2,10,6,4,8,2,4,6,10,12,8,6,10,2,4,10,8,4,10,6,8,4,6,2,4,10,2,8,4,6,10,4,6,2,10,4,8,2
Reel 5: 0,0,0,0,0,7,5,9,8,7,9,1,7,9,6,7,9,5,7,8,9,1,7,9,5,7,9,4,5,8,7,6,10,1,7,5,3,7,9,5,7,9,6,1,7,9,6,8,5,7,9,10,8,3,7,12,9,5,7,9,1,7,6,9,7,5,9,7,5,9,10,3,5,9,7,1,12,9,7,5,9,10,3,9,5,10,2,9,5,7,3,9,5,7

Symbol overview:
0 : Wild Cashapillar
1 : Cashapillar
2 : Heart bug
3 : Snail
4 : Bug
5 : Bee
6 : A
7 : K
8 : Q
9 : J
10 : 10
11 : Bonus cake - main game
12 : Bonus cake - freespins

 

[winbig]

Wow. No wonder it's so hard to get the free spins.

Reel 1: 1fs
Reel 2: 1fs
Reel 3: 1fs
Reel 4: 3fs
Reel 5: 2fs

Same goes for ANY 5oak hits, with so many symbols on Reel 4.

 

[sdaddy]

Hey kimss,

Did you happen to have the reels for the game Wowpot?

Just trying to figure out the payout % using Zoozie's program.

Thanks

 

[KasinoKing]

Hey kimss,

Did you happen to have the reels for the game Wowpot?
Just trying to figure out the payout % using Zoozie's program.

Thanks

Kim hasn't posted this year - so I don't know what your chance of getting an answer is...

I could possibly plot out the reels for you, but it would take many hours which I just don't have right now.

KK

 

[aka23]

Hey kimss,

Did you happen to have the reels for the game Wowpot?

Just trying to figure out the payout % using Zoozie's program.

Thanks

I don't see Wow Pot in the flash casino, so I can't lookup the reels. However, if anyone does want reels for flash casino games, now would be a good time to ask since my trial version of HTTP Debugger expires in 1 day.

Reels for Isis are below, which were previously requested in the thread.

Reel 1 ="0,9,10,11,8,5,11,4,7,8,12,7,3,6,2,7,4,8,2,7,8,12,9,11,3,10,11,9,5,10,9,8,1,6,10,11,3,10,1,11,9,10,11,9,10,5,6"
Reel 2="0,11,10,4,11,10,5,11,8,9,12,11,10,1,11,10,5,11,8,9,12,10,1,11,10,5,7,6,2,9,6,3,7,8,2,9,8,4,7,6,4,10,9,3,7,9,8"
Reel 3="0,10,8,11,5,10,8,1,11,9,12,11,10,5,11,10,1,11,10,4,9,10,5,11,8,3,6,7,2,9,7,4,9,2,7,8,3,9,8,3,6,7,4,6,9"
Reel 4 ="0,6,5,10,9,1,11,7,10,11,12,10,5,11,8,3,10,9,1,11,7,4,8,10,4,8,7,2,11,6,4,7,9,2,7,8,3,9,8,4,9,6,3,7"
Reel 5="0,7,11,8,5,10,11,9,1,7,12,10,11,5,10,11,9,1,10,11,4,9,8,3,7,6,3,8,6,2,9,4,10,8,2,9,3,8,4,6"

0=Isis
1=eye
2=staff
3=circle like symbol
4=sarcophagus
5=fan
6=A
7=K
8=Q
9=J
10=10
11=9
12=eagle

 

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

I don't see Wow Pot in the flash casino, so I can't lookup the reels. However, if anyone does want reels for flash casino games, now would be a good time to ask since my trial version of HTTP Debugger expires in 1 day.

Munchkins please, i could not go thru all pages so if it had already been posted, i apologize.

 

[aka23]

Munchkins please, i could not go thru all pages so if it had already been posted, i apologize.

The reels for Munchkins are below:

Reel 1="0,7,5,4,6,8,3,2,7,6,4,9,8,5,1,7,3,6,8,7,2,8,6,7,8,6"
Reel 2="0,7,6,2,5,6,8,4,1,7,0,4,7,8,6,1,8,9,5,6,3,8,7,2,8,6,7,3"
Reel 3="0,8,2,1,7,6,8,4,3,5,4,7,9,8,5,3,7,4,6,8,2,6,5,3,7,1,6,4,3,5,6,8,2,7"
Reel 4="0,2,7,3,6,1,5,3,8,7,6,5,4,1,3,2,6,1,8,9,7,6,2,4,6,1,4,3,5,4,8,6,4,1,7,2,5,8"
Reel 5="0,8,7,6,2,1,7,5,9,8,3,4,2,6,5,1,3,4,7,3,5,1,4,9,6,2,8,1,6,5,3,7,2,4,8,3,1,6"

0=wild
1=homework
2=wallet
3=key
4=A
5=K
6=Q
7=J
8=10
9=scatter

Edit -- After typing this out, I believe these are the same reels as Ho Ho Ho, which is in Zoozie's simulator.

 

[KasinoKing]

Munchkins please, i could not go thru all pages so if it had already been posted, i apologize.

Try this:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[aka23]

I entered Isis in Zoozie's slot simulator (not including increased respins for 4+ scatters) and am getting a payout of >100%. A screenshot of my setup is attached. Does anyone see what I am missing? Or perhaps entering new games like this is not supported?

EDIT: I see the screeshot is getting shrunk too small to view details. A larger screenshot is at

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.

 

[KasinoKing]

Does anyone see what I am missing?

Nope.
I've checked all the figures you entered and actually the only error is that the program does not allow for the fact you get more than 20 free-spins for 4 or 5 scatters (25 & 30 respectively) which you already spotted - but of course, this would INCREASE the return slightly.

So either your reel layouts are wrong, Zoozie's program is wrong, or the slot is not actually random.

KK

 

[deucebag]

Don't know about Isis, but some MG slots have different reels during free spins.

 

[Simmo!]

Isis and the two clones thereof are among the highest variance slots so is it possible that the return is over 100%, but the risk of ruin is so high that it offsets itself in the real world? iNetBet's Joker Poker multi-hand has (well, had, not sure if it still does) +ev but again it's high variance.

 

[aka23]

Isis and the two clones thereof are among the highest variance slots so is it possible that the return is over 100%, but the risk of ruin is so high that it offsets itself in the real world? iNetBet's Joker Poker multi-hand has (well, had, not sure if it still does) +ev but again it's high variance.

I'm guessing you viewed the iNetBet and Joker Poker tabs in my screenshot. Yes, 2 out of the 3 RTG paytables give the player a slight edge in Joker Poker. However, there are some key differences between Joker Poker & Isis.

1-- Video poker requires optimal strategy to get the maximum payout. If a game is slightly over 100% payback with optimal strategy, the casino still can still expect to make a profit on the game since the majority of players do not use perfect strategy. Isis is a different story. You don't have a lot of players who are getting a worse payback due to using non-optimal strategy.

2 -- The payout calculated for Isis was a few percent above 100%, not almost exactly 100% like Joker Poker. For each 100k was wagered on Isis, the casino would be expected to lose several thousand. This setup would not work for the long term.

3 -- Finally, there is little precedence for a >100% payout on slots, like there is with VP. You can find several VP games that payout >100%, both online and in land based casinos. However, I've never seen a slot that consistently had a >100% payout. If anything, the precendence is for higher variance to correlate with a lower payout. When a game is higher variance, players are less likely to notice a low payout. The most extreme example is the lottery. The Microgaming slots with the highest variance (prorgessive ones) as a whole have a lower payout than the normal variance ones.

So in short, I do not think the game really has a >100% payout (note that I played in practice mode, where some of the above issues would not be a problem). Instead, I think one of the 3 things KK listed or Duecebag's comment about free spin reels is true.

 

[aka23]

I figured out the problem. Now I get realistic house edge values for Isis.

With 3+ scatters triggering 20 free spins, I get a payout of 94.61%. If I average the increased payout for 25 spins and 30 spins with 4+ scatters at the corresponding ratio of the chance of 4 and 5 scatters, I get a net payout of 94.81%. I believe this is the true payout. So as I suspected, payout is a bit less than normal 5-reel, as it is higher variance than just about all other non-progressive slots.

Other stats from Zoozie's program are below:
Base payback(no free spins):0.4963801551046911
Probability for getting a feature each spin:0.006559066216716737~1/152
Hit frequency (1-line):0.08908356425275846

 

[KasinoKing]

I figured out the problem.

Care to share.... please?

 

[aka23]

Care to share.... please?

I listed reel 3 as the following:

Reel 3="0,10,8,11,5,10,8,1,11,9,12,11,10,5,11,10,1,11,1 0,4,9,10,5,11,8,3,6,7,2,9,7,4,9,2,7,8,3,9,8,3,6,7, 4,6,9"

While cutting and pasting to forums a space got inserted between the bolded 1 0 above. It should instead be:

Reel 3="0,10,8,11,5,10,8,1,11,9,12,11,10,5,11,10,1,11,10 ,4,9,10,5,11,8,3,6,7,2,9,7,4,9,2,7,8,3,9,8,3,6,7, 4,6,9"

Having a 10 instead of a 1 and 0 makes a big difference in terms of overall payout since lower numbers mean higher payouts for non-scatter symbols.

 

[Zoozie]

I figured out the problem. Now I get realistic house edge values for Isis.

With 3+ scatters triggering 20 free spins, I get a payout of 94.61%. If I average the increased payout for 25 spins and 30 spins with 4+ scatters at the corresponding ratio of the chance of 4 and 5 scatters, I get a net payout of 94.81%. I believe this is the true payout. So as I suspected, payout is a bit less than normal 5-reel, as it is higher variance than just about all other non-progressive slots.

Other stats from Zoozie's program are below:
Base payback(no free spins):0.4963801551046911
Probability for getting a feature each spin:0.006559066216716737~1/152
Hit frequency (1-line):0.08908356425275846

:notworthy

Thank you! I have been awaiting an analysis of Isis for years, but missed the reels until now. You approximation is indeed a 100% exact. What was the average number of freespins won/feature ? I would guess something like 20.25, which is a little higher than the 20 from 3 scatters which you hits most often.

The data shows the base payout is only 49% which just states it is indeed a very high variance slots, which we already knew of course. This is much lower than any of the other slots.

So I trust my program (of course) and your finding of the reels also. As you saw just a little mistake will alter the payout% a lot. And the final value near the 95% mark is a very strong indication also that it is correct - since all other analyzed MG are very close to the 95% payout.

 

[aka23]

:notworthy

Thank you! I have been awaiting an analysis of Isis for years, but missed the reels until now. You approximation is indeed a 100% exact. What was the average number of freespins won/feature ? I would guess something like 20.25, which is a little higher than the 20 from 3 scatters which you hits most often.

The freespins/feature was 23.02 with 3 scatters and 29.90 with 4 scatters. I estimate the overall average to be 23.12.

 

[Zoozie]

The freespins/feature was 23.02 with 3 scatters and 29.90 with 4 scatters. I estimate the overall average to be 23.12.

Okie, I thought you had estimate the average number of freespins won at feature by using weighted average over 3,4,5 spins, and then used this number in the #feature spins box.

But the result will be the same of course.

 

[aka23]

Okie, I thought you had estimate the average number of freespins won at feature by using weighted average over 3,4,5 spins, and then used this number in the #feature spins box.

But the result will be the same of course.

I believe you'd near a linear relationship with free spins to use the weighted average number of freespins... that is unless you multiplied weights by a factor related to the chance of retrigger or similar. I found it easier to compute three sets of results and weight the results accordingly.

 

[WonderingSpirit]

One small question.

Why do some slots, when you enter, show a shitload of scatters? 2 or 3 scatters one one reel.

Im pretty sure there are only one scatter pr reel.

Is it a bug?

Here are 2 screenshots. One from Happy Valley and one from MedievalMoolah

 

[KasinoKing]

One small question.
Why do some slots, when you enter, show a shitload of scatters? 2 or 3 scatters one one reel.
Im pretty sure there are only one scatter pr reel.
Is it a bug?

I've seen this a few times too, and I don't believe it's a bug, just sloppy programming.
I think they just put random symbols into all the positions on start up, because it doesn't really matter.
WHY they do this is beyond me...

KK