'Crack Cocaine of the highstreet'

[dunover]

Getting back on track after derail.....

Government votes against reform yesterday - the hideous £300 per minute losing potential on FOBTs remains:

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They are supposedly looking at other reform though.

 

[Richas]

With the greatest of respect Richas (and ordinarily your posts make a great deal of sense and I tend to agree with them), I'm utterly bemused by your position on this issue.

FOBTs are an aberration, they have absolutely no place on the high street whatsoever, and the sooner they're outlawed the better. (Or at least knocked down to a maximum stake of £2.)

Games such as this belong in casinos, that's all the 'no' campaign is saying as far as I can tell, and I see no reason to see that online gaming is the next 'target'.

Here is the draft website for a new campaign to ban all gambling advertising across the EU. If you check the My Story tab you can see it is by the same people who hve embraced the "FOBT bad" mantra. It is an add on spin off from that lobby group.

The (ex)gambling addicts behind it have some good ideas, like banning reverse withdrawals and getting the online industry to adopt a code like the new ABB one unfortunately they are centrally wedded to the banning of all gambling advertising, including online, a condition that would harm legitimate online forms disproportionately.

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I said the antis would be after online next...they are. Sheldon Adelson and co want gambling restricted to casinos - it is called regulatory capture in busines terms.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Does gambling really need to be advertised?

I was in the pub last week when the footy was on (I wasn't there for the footy I was there for the AWPs ) and every advert break was just an assault of advertising for gambling in various forms, it was very distasteful.

People who want to gamble know where to go, it doesn't need to be advertised on mainstream television.

 

[Richas]

Does gambling really need to be advertised?

I was in the pub last week when the footy was on (I wasn't there for the footy I was there for the AWPs ) and every advert break was just an assault of advertising for gambling in various forms, it was very distasteful.

People who want to gamble know where to go, it doesn't need to be advertised on mainstream television.

If you want a competitive market for the punter then yes, gambling does need to be advertised. This is particularly true for newer products with multiple new entrants with new brands like we have with online gambling. Banning advertising is a major barrier to new entrants.

People know where to go via advertising, they make choices between providers via advertising and promotions and punters get better prices as a result of the competition between advertisers.

You are right that FOBTs and AWP machines don't have much in the way of advertising - people know that you find them in bookies and pubs respectively so they are effectively advertised by the physical outlet and its signage. The spate of ads you are seeing now are about getting Apps on to people's smart phones - it is like a klondike gold rush to sign up as many to each suppliers app as they can get. Once they have become ubiquitous and well known by all they will spend less on advertising.

 

[dunover]

This bloke did Ok from the FOBTs....

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And admitted he was challenging the boundaries of laws and regulations...


And here is the serious attitude they give to SE...

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[Slotster!]

I'm against regulation of anything, generally speaking, firmly in the camp of people should always be allowed to make up their own mind and make their own decisions.

There comes a point however that the more capable in society need to look out for the less capable; that is not happening here.

On the rare occasion I've popped into an actual bookies - every single time there's been one or more people glued to the screen pumping money into it like it's going out of fashion. Of course you see exactly the same thing in casino's, but that's what you go there for, they are not next to the chemist on the high street and most people can't nip in to a casino without the Mrs noticing. I've played them and lost or done OK or in-between - but I'm able to do so at the same £1 spins I'd play online with a dedicated budget. Plus, I'm not keen on roulette. Usually the environment isn't conducive to a good time either so I'll fill out my accumulator or whatever and make myself scarce.

With FOBT's - the balance of profit versus responsibility has tipped way way way too far in the bookies favour -- and coming from someone who''ll gladly spend three hours solid watching pretty reels spin round and round on the off chance a feature hits -- that's saying something.

 

[Richas]

With FOBT's - the balance of profit versus responsibility has tipped way way way too far in the bookies favour -- and coming from someone who''ll gladly spend three hours solid watching pretty reels spin round and round on the off chance a feature hits -- that's saying something.

FYI 30% of the revenues from these machines come from the £2 max B3 slot style games.

Here is another anti FOBT petition, calling for a ban on roulette. Please note how it ends, blaming FOBTs for the much worse online gambling...

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its like any drug and addiction it starts off small using the machines in bookies then leads to online gambling in the confort of ur own home you become trapped and surrounded by it we need to cut the root of the problem

If you don't defend the freedoms of those that choose gambling products you don't like then you risk losing those products that you do.

Meanwhile Problem Gambling rates are no worse now that in 1999 before the rise of FOBTs and Internet gambling. The Internet and FOBTs do not cause Problem Gambling, they are attractive products for problem gamblers and such addiction can have terrible consequences but banning one form of gambling would solve nothing.

 

[dunover]

Well, the 'protective measures' are now compulsory from Friday last week:

Dirk Hansen of 'Gamcare' (paid for/funded by gambling profits) said without a hint of embarrassment:

"These new measures will not only educate players to the risks associated with gambling but also empower individuals to get support when they need it”

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[catapultaudio]

I really hate the garbage spouted in the media about these machines. Sure, they are 'addictive' - in that they are fun to play and the potential for reward is attractive enough to make people want to return to play again - what exactly is different about it to any other form of gambling or gaming? ... If these machines are banned, it will only be a matter of time before on-line gambling becomes the target and it may not be banned (here in the UK at least) but their could VERY LIKELY end up being disgusting rules and restrictions that work AGAINST the player, whether degenerate or recreational.

A very relevant example: William Hill have a bonus card scheme whereby you earn points for your play on the machines. I used to receive a text every wednesday and saturday offering me free points, slot spins, blackjack hands etc if i went in and used the machine before the following wednesday/saturday. I stopped receiving these around November time and when I enquired I was told the freebies had been stopped in response to pressure on them for 'incentivizing' people to come and play ...

So somewhere down the line all the first deposit bonuses and free spins offers etc online could also end up disappearing, and who wants that?! ...

 

[sparkz]

That phrase makes me chuckle. It's a load of crap really. You may as well call online gambling the "crack cocaine" because you can bet way more online than you can on a FOBT, plus thanks technology such as mobile phones and tablet's you can gamble anywhere at any point. £100 a spin on roulette every 10 seconds?? So what, online it can be much more than that.

Why is it that only roulette is ever mentioned in the same sentence as FOBT and "crack cocaine" ? Simple, because it's the FOBT roulette that can cause people problems. However FOBT's as a whole are branded the "crack cocaine", not "Roulette on the FOBT's".

I think theres maybe 3 types of roulette on a FOBT, but the majority of games are slots which are £2 max spin (not "crack cocaine" stake's).

You can actually class pub fruit machines "the crack cocaine" based on this argument because actually FOBT slots are better and pay out much more for what is put in.

Pub fruity:

- £100 jackpot
- 25p/50p/£1 a spin
- Average payout % is a low 76% (some are just 70%)
- Compensated machines (If someone emptied it before you walked in, you are screwed before you even realise)

FOBT slot:

- £500 max prize in 1 game (I don't call it jackpot because it uses an RNG, so just like online, even if a big win was just taken, it can pay again)
- 25p/50p/£1/£2 a spin (Apart from "Fortune spins", usually are super spins that are 4 for £10 or mega spins that are 4 for £20. These increase the payout % by a few % and give extra bonus features).
- Average payout around 92/94% (Increased with fortune spins).
- Slots are random

FOBT slots seem to be like playing online. Actually many of the slots on FOBT's are featured online (Harry Trotter, Rainbow Riches). Yes the payout is slightly lower but if you win, you get cold hard cash right away and not have to wait days for it to hit your bank.

I for one would much prefer to put £200 into FOBT slots knowing that any spin could give me a very nice win opposed to shoving it into a pub fruity knowing that even if that £200 forced the jackpot, it probably wont repeat.


The responsible gambling rules that come in place with FOBT's where you can set limits wont work as a problem gambler won't set a limit, or even if they did they could just go to another bookies.

The bottom line though is just because roulette is £100 max a spin, it doesn't mean people should be betting that high. Same as online, we can bet much more in 1 spin, but many of us don't unless we are a high roller and have that money to blow

 

[Richas]

Well this campaign keeps on rolling. This time the Mail is off saying how bad Playtech are, whilst forgetting to mention that when the Mail launched their own Slots and Bingo site they launched using Playtech as their partner run by the "jailbird pornographer" Teddy Sagi

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now I know some here don't think this campaign will spill over on to restricting online gambling but if they win it will. Already it is shifting to companies that supply both markets.

Also of all the people who use these machines 43% also use online slots. Now that is today so if they restrict the machines the next target is obvious...those prevented from playing in shop will migrate online bringing the moral panic brigade with them. The other point is that your fellow online players are FOBT users already, show a bit of solidarity. Unfortunately the bookies are a bit incompetent, they have a petition in store that is a bit pants - they have an onlie site here that is pretty pants (and does not include the petition on the front page

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If you want to sign it you would need this link:

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As I say the wording is a bit pants but have a look

“My local bookie is part of my community. I should be able to spend time and money there if I choose, and I don’t support government action that threatens to take away that freedom and also puts jobs at risk.”

 

[dunover]

Well this campaign keeps on rolling. This time the Mail is off saying how bad Playtech are, whilst forgetting to mention that when the Mail launched their own Slots and Bingo site they launched using Playtech as their partner run by the "jailbird pornographer" Teddy Sagi

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now I know some here don't think this campaign will spill over on to restricting online gambling but if they win it will. Already it is shifting to companies that supply both markets.

Also of all the people who use these machines 43% also use online slots. Now that is today so if they restrict the machines the next target is obvious...those prevented from playing in shop will migrate online bringing the moral panic brigade with them. The other point is that your fellow online players are FOBT users already, show a bit of solidarity. Unfortunately the bookies are a bit incompetent, they have a petition in store that is a bit pants - they have an onlie site here that is pretty pants (and does not include the petition on the front page

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If you want to sign it you would need this link:

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As I say the wording is a bit pants but have a look

I'm surprised they'd have funds to play online slots afterwards.....
Plus the FOBT's are a UK phenomenon and online gaming supplied from overseas-licensed sites cannot be as easily restricted so it's disingenuous to infer that cracking down on a localized issue will be replicated online.
Plus you have tools to limit the budget in online sites, unlike FOBT's plus more effective SE tools.
So, comparing FOBT's to online games is a chalk-and-cheese scenario.
Scaremongering by the High Street chains jealously guarding their vast and easy revenues from FOBT's.
I personally don't know another online player that uses FOBT's anyway.

 

[Richas]

I'm surprised they'd have funds to play online slots afterwards.....
Plus the FOBT's are a UK phenomenon and online gaming supplied from overseas-licensed sites cannot be as easily restricted so it's disingenuous to infer that cracking down on a localized issue will be replicated online.
Plus you have tools to limit the budget in online sites, unlike FOBT's plus more effective SE tools.
So, comparing FOBT's to online games is a chalk-and-cheese scenario.
Scaremongering by the High Street chains jealously guarding their vast and easy revenues from FOBT's.
I personally don't know another online player that uses FOBT's anyway.

The legal and practical barriers for our US cousins don't actually stop them, but it has made things a lot worse for them.

If you really think that the moral panic anti gambling crowd will stop if they get B2 games banned (in dry bookies, where children are not allowed and staff can intervene to help) and will just ignore higher stake, higher jackpot online games of the exact same type then you really don't understand how their moral self righteousness makes them sure that they know what you should do or be allowed to do better than you.

Online has the potential to be socially responsible in its offer but the things you point to are by no means universal and the industry has a record in many areas of dubious practice. Bookies do need better self exclusion and better systems. As the games are essentially the same they could move to account betting entirely, except of course many of their customers do not want that. All the advantages you claim (in theory) for online vs FOBTs could be implemented on these machines.

One example I will point out is the publication of RTPs, on the FOBTs it is a minimum requirement to have an accurate published RTP and that is enforced. Online the way RTPs have been kept secret, likely been changed and/or the optimal strategy altered or varied between the same games on different sites or over time. In this way the FOBTs are superior to much of the online offer - there is better game information on the FOBTs.

I am saddened that so much of the propaganda has been swallowed by some who play essentially the same games online rather than in shop.

 

[mathsboy1975]

Well this campaign keeps on rolling. This time the Mail is off saying how bad Playtech are, whilst forgetting to mention that when the Mail launched their own Slots and Bingo site they launched using Playtech as their partner run by the "jailbird pornographer" Teddy Sagi

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I just read that article and it is a crock of sh*te even by Daily Mail standards. Tearing strips off someone for providing technology that allows people to lose money. Doing the same by betting on horses or football teams is clearly OK though...

How does it differ from these abysmal "virtual" horse racing and greyhounds. It is all just a front end on a back end RNG generator at the end of the day.

This line really made me roll my eyes

They have been blamed for an increase in problem gambling, and are said to have an almost hypnotic effect that leaves players like ‘zombies’."

The latter part of that also applies to kids on playstations and xbox.