Corona virus - Covid 19 discussion

[mack341]

My Dad died after catching MRSA in a hospital!

I would imagine all the facts and figures, certainly in most European countries, will be looked over with a fine toothcomb in years to come, at the moment they just have to make some assumptions, which is unfortunate, but understandable.

So did my nan as a complication of surgery so it resonates for me, she died in 2000 and that article was from 2004, so the govt of the day dragged it's feet to admit it and tackle it. Makes me fucking angry to remember it all, fucking negligence, so it wouldn't surprise me if this is an issue with covid, a leopard never changes it's spots for me, something is wrong with the NHS at the top and it affects the whole performance and outcomes.

 

[dealer wins]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[mack341]

Slight diversion post ahead but I've got a bee in my bonnet now!

The last time I visited someone in the same local hospital was 2009, nothing much had changed, it still resembled a chaotic mess to my eyes, crowded with no room, food that would cause a prison riot, no fresh air. I don't see why we can't have bigger wards with more space, and separate rooms for certain illnesses, for example if somebody cannot manage the toilet. Cost shouldn't be the deciding factor when we waste so much on bureaucracy:


In 2010 the Health Select Committee found that running the NHS as a ‘market’

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.

The Select Committee noted that the NHS would have some administration expenses even if it didn’t run itself as a ‘market’. But they noted evidence from the NHS Chief Historian, Professor Charles Webster that in the pre-market late-80s, the NHS spent only 5% of its budget on administration.

The difference in administration costs pre- and post-market - 9% of the NHS budget - is over £10billion a year of the current £120bn budget. That’s more than the entire cost of every GP in the land.

The government tried to suppress the 14% figure, which was in a York University report it commissioned then refused to publish for 5 years. The York study found that ‘market’ mechanisms like “the purchaser-provider split, private finance, national tariffs…mean…transactions costs of providing care have increased, and may continue to increase.”

£10billion a year may be a conservative estimate

In fact the increase in administration costs due to the ‘market’ is likely to be even higher than £10bn.

Professor Colin Leys, author of ‘The Plot Against the NHS’, told OurNHS that these figures relate to 2003, before the second big wave of market ‘reforms’ including “the Independent Sector Treatment programme, the huge expansion of the Commercial Directorate of the Department of Health, the marketing division set up to help trusts learn to advertise and sell their services, the Competition and Cooperation panel, Monitor’s vast expansion...”

The market introduces ‘transaction costs’ - advertising, negotiating, contracting, invoicing, billing, auditing, monitoring contracts, collecting information, resolving disputes both in courts and out, all employing and training a ballooning bureaucracy - even leaving aside any profits extracted by the private sector.

Each competing NHS ‘provider’ Hospital and Ambulance Trust has executive officers on 6 figure sums, with their Chief Executives often earning more than the Prime Minister. Most spend millions on hiring even higher-paid management consultants in year after year, too - though these figures aren’t centrally collected anywhere.

Then there’s the 211 Clinical commissioning Groups, advised by soon-to-be privatised Commissioning Support Units and NHS England (the biggest quango in history). All of them shove a lot of cash at the management consultants, too (under central quango instructions).

And on and on, for anyone interested....https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ournhs/billions-of-wasted-nhs-cash-noone-wants-to-mention/

 

[Mr_Slot5]

something is wrong with the NHS at the top and it affects the whole performance and outcomes.

Yes. The plight of the NHS has little to do with underfunding and more to do with mismanagement of the funding it does get. So many people fail to realise this. It's a money pit in its current guise.

A great institution, woefully mismanaged.

 

[Kroffe]

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

The consequences in the article all assume people are wearing their mask like this guy.
It was like "If people use them wrong, it wont help", well duh.

Then it goes on to say this at the end.

" We strongly urge readers to carry on with good hand hygiene and social distancing, not touching their face and using reusable (rather than disposable) face coverings"

 

[Kroffe]

Now only $24.99

 

[mack341]

The consequences in the article all assume people are wearing their mask like this guy.
It was like "If people use them wrong, it wont help", well duh.
View attachment 145915

Then it goes on to say this at the end.

" We strongly urge readers to carry on with good hand hygiene and social distancing, not touching their face and using reusable (rather than disposable) face coverings"

That's the same type of mask I use on occasion, it's flimsy as ****, imagine someone has covid and they put one on and come into your house, and you're scared of covid, I highly doubt the mask would put you at ease! It's better than nothing I guess, can give you a false sense of protection I feel too, need to be careful not to touch them much. Mine for some reason starts to slip upwards, and the fabric touches my eyes, I can hardly see!

 

[sufferinsilence]

That's the same type of mask I use on occasion, it's flimsy as ****, imagine someone has covid and they put one on and come into your house, and you're scared of covid, I highly doubt the mask would put you at ease! It's better than nothing I guess, can give you a false sense of protection I feel too, need to be careful not to touch them much. Mine for some reason starts to slip upwards, and the fabric touches my eyes, I can hardly see!

Someone in your house? Ain't nobody entering my house without a negative covid-test and in full PPE!

 

[Kroffe]

That's the same type of mask I use on occasion, it's flimsy as ****, imagine someone has covid and they put one on and come into your house, and you're scared of covid, I highly doubt the mask would put you at ease! It's better than nothing I guess, can give you a false sense of protection I feel too, need to be careful not to touch them much. Mine for some reason starts to slip upwards, and the fabric touches my eyes, I can hardly see!

I really think its a non issue.
Even if it just helps a tiny bit with slowing the spread, its better than not wearing one imo.
I cant for the life of me understand how there are people out there faking disabilities just to get out of wearing a mask while shopping, riding the bus etc.
Seems like it would be more of a hassle doing that than just actually wearing a mask.

Also, its sooo nice taking off the mask after a long day of wearing it.

Old Attachment (Invalid)

 

[mack341]

Funny in the mail the other day they mentioned a nasal spray, that boots the chemist sell, is being tested on humans to see if it will prevent covid infection or reduce symptoms, after labs studies showed it could.

And maybe it is a similar principle to another spray I'd seen before, but dismissed it as a gimmick:

Vicks First Defence is a remedy for the frequent cold, that helps to capture the virus clinically proven to prevent a cold in its tracks. It can lessen the severity of your cold symptoms, which means that your cold will not last so long or be as hard to manage.

Vicks First Defence utilises a unique micro-gel formula to snare the cold viruses which begin to grow in the back of the nose. It lessens the pH levels in the rear of the nose to block the infection from spreading and multiplying. Ultimately, it disturbs your nose to help you to eliminate the virus by blowing the nose or sending it directly in your gut

[says it's clinically proven, maybe something similar could be created by our pharma companies for covid]

 

[pinnit2014]

So did my nan as a complication of surgery so it resonates for me, she died in 2000 and that article was from 2004, so the govt of the day dragged it's feet to admit it and tackle it. Makes me fucking angry to remember it all, fucking negligence, so it wouldn't surprise me if this is an issue with covid, a leopard never changes it's spots for me, something is wrong with the NHS at the top and it affects the whole performance and outcomes.

I think sometimes the issue with Health is the actual performance and outcome targets they work to; it leads to approaches that aren't necessarily in the interests of patients - right now still, and before Covid, there was an obsession with delayed discharges. NHS Boards reporting on this like it was the Holy Grail and, tbf to some of the management, getting hauled over the coals if it wasn't in line: what did a reduction in it mean? Well it just meant folk getting flung out of hospital in some/many cases too soon to hit that goal - it also simply transferred the cost over to the social care sector. Or, in layman's term, shovelling shite from one end to the other.

Not saying the NHS is whiter than white but the underfunded v mismanagement is a little more nuanced that some think (probably somewhere in the middle and given the ring fencing of money in certain areas, probably very service specific) - only a few years ago that the Scottish Government here had a medium term financial plan. Think about that - a (multi billion?) business that didn't look 3-5 years into the future and 2019, yeah 2019, was the first time the boards were told they needed to have a financial plan in place. Nuts.

Whatever the position, wide scale reform is needed but no one wants to touch that - seen it with Community Partnerships, Integrated Joint boards - they simply don't work (in Scotland here they are an omni shambles but the Nicola doesn't want to red flag this too much for obvious reasons) but keep on trying they do, to avoid having to do so. Mooted in the past about the Japanese Model - different demographics, healthier? populations in the main and the whole co-insurance mechanism for funding; must surely be getting to the point that the fundamental issues need to simply be addressed, rather than the current sticking plaster approach.

In terms of now...from my relatively small world of folk i know:
- Dad: sent for Chemo, turned up and they told him he should have been given some steroid thing so he couldn't get the treatment there - come back in 3 weeks
- Cousin - issue with bowel and had appointment last month or so. Turned up and like above, there was something not given to them so had to be sent away - still no re-arrangement.

and, this is a belter:

Nephew ; he had 2 issues, one was cleared up, leaving a procedure for the other thing....turned up? They had arranged for the other thing, signed off as being ok, to be looked at, not what he was there for - if i ever had to go in and get something out i'm for putting a big red X on my body so they don't get confused with 'ah, we took that kidney out but you meant YOUR left - I see....'

Only a handful of these from my personal POV but wouldn't be surprised if that's replicated over a larger population sample.

 

[mack341]

I think sometimes the issue with Health is the actual performance and outcome targets they work to; it leads to approaches that aren't necessarily in the interests of patients - right now still, and before Covid, there was an obsession with delayed discharges. NHS Boards reporting on this like it was the Holy Grail and, tbf to some of the management, getting hauled over the coals if it wasn't in line: what did a reduction in it mean? Well it just meant folk getting flung out of hospital in some/many cases too soon to hit that goal - it also simply transferred the cost over to the social care sector. Or, in layman's term, shovelling shite from one end to the other.

Not saying the NHS is whiter than white but the underfunded v mismanagement is a little more nuanced that some think (probably somewhere in the middle and given the ring fencing of money in certain areas, probably very service specific) - only a few years ago that the Scottish Government here had a medium term financial plan. Think about that - a (multi billion?) business that didn't look 3-5 years into the future and 2019, yeah 2019, was the first time the boards were told they needed to have a financial plan in place. Nuts.

Whatever the position, wide scale reform is needed but no one wants to touch that - seen it with Community Partnerships, Integrated Joint boards - they simply don't work (in Scotland here they are an omni shambles but the Nicola doesn't want to red flag this too much for obvious reasons) but keep on trying they do, to avoid having to do so. Mooted in the past about the Japanese Model - different demographics, healthier? populations in the main and the whole co-insurance mechanism for funding; must surely be getting to the point that the fundamental issues need to simply be addressed, rather than the current sticking plaster approach.

In terms of now...from my relatively small world of folk i know:
- Dad: sent for Chemo, turned up and they told him he should have been given some steroid thing so he couldn't get the treatment there - come back in 3 weeks
- Cousin - issue with bowel and had appointment last month or so. Turned up and like above, there was something not given to them so had to be sent away - still no re-arrangement.

and, this is a belter:

Nephew ; he had 2 issues, one was cleared up, leaving a procedure for the other thing....turned up? They had arranged for the other thing, signed off as being ok, to be looked at, not what he was there for - if i ever had to go in and get something out i'm for putting a big red X on my body so they don't get confused with 'ah, we took that kidney out but you meant YOUR left - I see....'

Only a handful of these from my personal POV but wouldn't be surprised if that's replicated over a larger population sample.

I wouldn't mind if the NHS got some extra funding, but only after the admin system and trust/market aspects were simplified.

I think a healthcare system like france has, would probably deliver better outcomes, but whether we have too many health and social problems now etc.. to adjust to a new way of doing things. The fact someone can have an accident, and call an ambulance and be taken to A&E [free at the point of use] and be saved is a great thing/concept, but the rest needs strong reform.

I remember going for an MRI scan, paid for by the NHS, in a private but separate clinic on the nhs hospital grounds, it was immaculate and well run, totally different to my experience of the outpatients dept. Must come down to the management I feel, and capacity needs building up once more.

Does seem to be a lot of errors happening like your family examples, perhaps because they're rushing and worrying about these targets? The last time I went for something they'd made a mistake with the appointment, and just cancelled it so was a wasted journey, and the staff at the reception desk always seem to struggle with the appointment system, lots of confused peering at the computer trying to work out what they need to press.

Seen some pics of nurses on twitter tonight, they really look like they've been at the coalface, they are doing a very difficult job wearing masks and PPE for hours. I feel Covid has caught us out more than countries like Germany, and exposed the issues the NHS has [the poor management and systems]

I wonder if we went back to look at the NHS in the 1950s, which I consider a bit of a heyday with matrons whether they set targets etc..or did things a different way ?

 

[pinnit2014]

I wouldn't mind if the NHS got some extra funding, but only after the admin system and trust/market aspects were simplified.

I think a healthcare system like france has, would probably deliver better outcomes, but whether we have too many health and social problems now etc.. to adjust to a new way of doing things. The fact someone can have an accident, and call an ambulance and be taken to A&E [free at the point of use] and be saved is a great thing/concept, but the rest needs strong reform.

I remember going for an MRI scan, paid for by the NHS, in a private but separate clinic on the nhs hospital grounds, it was immaculate and well run, totally different to my experience of the outpatients dept. Must come down to the management I feel, and capacity needs building up once more.

Does seem to be a lot of errors happening like your family examples, perhaps because they're rushing and worrying about these targets? The last time I went for something they'd made a mistake with the appointment, and just cancelled it so was a wasted journey, and the staff at the reception desk always seem to struggle with the appointment system, lots of confused peering at the computer trying to work out what they need to press.

Seen some pics of nurses on twitter tonight, they really look like they've been at the coalface, they are doing a very difficult job wearing masks and PPE for hours. I feel Covid has caught us out more than countries like Germany, and exposed the issues the NHS has [the poor management and systems]

I wonder if we went back to look at the NHS in the 1950s, which I consider a bit of a heyday with matrons whether they set targets etc..or did things a different way ?

When i used to work in the NHS in a capacity the performance targets were a red herring a lot of the time - you'd see Trusts's getting praised for their waiting times but unless you analysed the other side, it was pointless - reduce waiting times because you're rattling through them like me through a Bonanza deposit, comes at the cost of x,y,z being incorrectly diagnosed, isn't necessarily a good thing, funnily enough.

Thing with these targets and the subsequent government reporting is that you end up employing a Performance Manager and a Team etc etc - further adding to a layer of bureaucracy.

Northern Ireland was one of the worst - 5 Health Boards, 13 Health Trusts for a country you can drive from one end to another in less than 2 hours? Meant 18 payroll teams, 18 finance departments etc etc - they've changed that now but to this day i don't know what a lot of them did.

The systems were fun, and awful - not that long ago one of them we had to do work on kept their waiting list on Excel - no lie

 

[Borgie]

18 areas in England where Covid rates are still rising

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Sent via @updayUK

 

[shadow123]

Sounds like some of us may get the first covid jab this month, on the priorty list I think I am in section 5 or 6.Would like to volunteer to help
if they need people, dont think I am confident enough to administer the jabs which is what they really need people to be trained for but would be happy
to be involved in transport.Only problem is that i am in a vulnerable group and would have had to have finished the vaccine course first.
Want to help if I can but also need some motivation and purpose in life since my wife passed.Still its really good news that the vaccines have been
approved and ready for roll out.

 

[maxd]

So I get a warning for pointing out abuse towards another poster!
Someone getting upset about me calling the abuser out over abusing another poster and reporting me. Yet Max takes the side of the abuser.

Nice try. Go back and read your post. Calling another forum member "infantile" is uncalled for and unwelcome. Banging on about how shit you think Casinomeister is is uncalled for and unwelcome. Hence the Warning. Also, another Warning for this for dissing the staff.

And for those commenting on these things there were no Reports. This Warning and the last were based on posts of his that I'd come across on my own.

 

[sufferinsilence]

 

[slotplayer]

Brian Williams?

YT brian williams scandal

 

[sufferinsilence]

Brian Williams?

YT brian williams scandal

I know about that but it would be quite a feat if he made that Fox host lie about masks

 

[slotplayer]

I know about that but it would be quite a feat if he made that Fox host lie about masks

I didn't hear any lie.

 

[mack341]

Maybe the idea of the way we're using masks is similar to having a handkerchief permanently in place over your nose and mouth, to limit the stuff that comes out when you cough, [droplets] not as an air filter that would prevent airborne microscopic particles getting through when you breathe in 6 litres of oxygen every minute.

 

[slotplayer]

View attachment 146099

Maybe the idea of the way we're using masks is similar to having a handkerchief permanently in place over your nose and mouth, to limit the stuff that comes out when you cough, [droplets] not as an air filter that would prevent airborne microscopic particles getting through when you breathe in 6 litres of oxygen every minute.

I think you need a certified n95 mask to block microscopic particles.

An N95 FFR is a type of respirator which removes particles from the air that are breathed through it. These respirators filter out at least 95% of very small (0.3 micron) particles. N95 FFRs are capable of filtering out all types of particles, including bacteria and viruses.

I see an over the counter type mask as cutting down the droplets travel velocity. Similar to sneezing or coughing into the sleeve or hands but not as effective. However any barrier provides some protection.

 

[geordiecolin]

Nice try. Go back and read your post. Calling another forum member "infantile" is uncalled for and unwelcome. Banging on about how shit you think Casinomeister is is uncalled for and unwelcome. Hence the Warning. Also, another Warning for this for dissing the staff.

And for those commenting on these things there were no Reports. This Warning and the last were based on posts of his that I'd come across on my own.

Please highlight where I posted that I thought that casinomeister was shit so that the reader and I can understand

 

[mack341]

I think you need a certified n95 mask to block microscopic particles.

An N95 FFR is a type of respirator which removes particles from the air that are breathed through it. These respirators filter out at least 95% of very small (0.3 micron) particles. N95 FFRs are capable of filtering out all types of particles, including bacteria and viruses.

I see an over the counter type mask as cutting down the droplets travel velocity. Similar to sneezing or coughing into the sleeve or hands but not as effective. However any barrier provides some protection.

I've got 1 of those which I'm keeping for emergencies, or covid 20! It's a bit more of a fiddle to put on, whereas the blue cloth one I can just slip around my lug holes.

If people want to wear any sort of mask then it's fine by me, but I do start to worry about the govt forcing the population to or face criminal charges, then I think the scientific evidence must be strongly in favour/support, and I don't think it is from what I have read.

 

[maxd]

Please highlight where I posted that I thought that casinomeister was shit so that the reader and I can understand

I suspect no one is having problems understanding. Request declined.

 

[geordiecolin]

I suspect no one is having problems understanding. Request declined.

So you are just bullying.Thanks

 

[slotplayer]

I've got 1 of those which I'm keeping for emergencies, or covid 20! It's a bit more of a fiddle to put on, whereas the blue cloth one I can just slip around my lug holes.

If people want to wear any sort of mask then it's fine by me, but I do start to worry about the govt forcing the population to or face criminal charges, then I think the scientific evidence must be strongly in favour/support, and I don't think it is from what I have read.

My mask ties on. I'm not sure how good it is. When my sister showed up last week with some banana bread she brought some filters for it. She's the one who gave me the mask in the first place. I did get to see her new dog which was cool.

As long as they don't make me wear it inside I'm fine with it all.

 

[The Dude]

Enjoy your position in a decreasingly worthy forum of your making*

Directed at Max, btw.

Why did you not do that in the first place instead of playing daddy? We are adults.
...

Directed at Max again.

...
Borgies infantile personal "passive aggressive"response is so typical of what is left in this forum. It is left with just mostly like minded posters and maybe why so many people have abandoned posting in CM?

What is left in CM is dominated by so few yet it is killing the site due to bullying folk from expressing an opinion that they do not agree with.

So I get a warning for pointing out abuse towards another poster!
Someone getting upset about me calling the abuser out over abusing another poster and reporting me. Yet Max takes the side of the abuser.

So you are just bullying.Thanks

You are pushing my patience.

Do NOT disrespect the administrators or moderators in this forum. You have no less that 12 warnings over the past couple of years - mostly for trollish comments or dissing mods. This is ending now.

 

[geordiecolin]

You are pushing my patience.

Do NOT disrespect the administrators or moderators in this forum. You have no less that 12 warnings over the past couple of years - mostly for trollish comments or dissing mods. This is ending now.

You asked in a thread how best to address forum issues and I gave you a perfectly sensible and reasonable solution to it in that thread. You chose to do nothing about addressing the issue other than ponder over the question you raised. I am guilty of highlighting what I see as the biggest issue in this forum-re disrespectful responses to folk who have a differing opinion.
If you do not fix an issue it will always remain regardless of you banning the likes of me who highlight disrespectful posts to fellow members

 

[The Dude]

Well Geordie, this is like the teapot calling the kettle black, or whatever. I could go through your infractions and point out it is you who is posting disrespectful responses, and it is you who is giving this forum a negative vibe, and it is you who has been warned numerous times about doing so.

 

[The Dude]

I would appreciate to keep this discourse contained within PMs and let the Corona conversation here continue. Thank you.

 

[geordiecolin]

I would appreciate to keep this discourse contained within PMs and let the Corona conversation here continue. Thank you.

I would be very happy to talk with you via PM about the issues I have raised and I have zero wish to give the forum a negative vibe. As I have stated I have gave a perfectly good solution to the discourteous behavior of forum members-including me

 

[The Dude]

I would be very happy to talk with you via PM about the issues I have raised and I have zero wish to give the forum a negative vibe. As I have stated I have gave a perfectly good solution to the discourteous behavior of forum members-including me

OK. Thank you.

 

[geordiecolin]

OK. Thank you.

And just to point out publicly-and as anyone who talks to me privately would concur- I have total respect for you personally Bryan and for Casinomeister itself

 

[colinsunderland]

14,879 cases in the UK. -2,676
414 deaths in the UK. -84
1,350 patients admitted to hospital in the UK. -84
15,236 patients in hospital in the UK. -1,105
1,315 patients on ventilation in the UK. -165

(minus figures are compared to 1 week ago)

Everything still dropping, hopefully it keeps going that way.
Really hope we don't start seeing a massive rise a couple of weeks after Christmas when they lift the restrictions.

 

[Borgie]

14,879 cases in the UK. -2,676
414 deaths in the UK. -84
1,350 patients admitted to hospital in the UK. -84
15,236 patients in hospital in the UK. -1,105
1,315 patients on ventilation in the UK. -165

(minus figures are compared to 1 week ago)

Everything still dropping, hopefully it keeps going that way.
Really hope we don't start seeing a massive rise a couple of weeks after Christmas when they lift the restrictions.

Yes there are 2 things .

Firstly lets see how things are in 2 /3 weeks now shops etc have reopened. Shutting stuff obviously had a good effect as the numbers show everything falling.

Secondly we wait with baited breath for 2/3 weeks after xmas to see what affect the mixing of famlies has on numbers.

Additionally the vaccine will be starting soon so hopefully will help.

 

[Jono777]

Need to drop a quick "mini survey" in here

Regarding the Vaccine, who on here will be going ahead, no hesitation and having it?

To keep things simple, "Like" this post if you are and " " if you're not

Cheers!

 

[colinsunderland]

Need to drop a quick "mini survey" in here

Regarding the Vaccine, who on here will be going ahead, no hesitation and having it?

To keep things simple, "Like" this post if you are and " " if you're not

Cheers!

I will, but bear in mind it will probably be 6 months before I can get it, so might change my mind before then!
If I was offered it next week then I probably would.

Reported for begging for likes

 

[dealer wins]

The virus now can tell if you are elite or not.

The virus has now made UK laws that don't apply evenly and fairly to its citizens.

The virus has now officially turned the UK into a fascist state.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Tories in 'one rule for them and their rich friends but a different rule for everyone else' shocker.

You've seen the Conservative Party before, right?

 

[dealer wins]

Tories in 'one rule for them and their rich friends but a different rule for everyone else' shocker.

You've seen the Conservative Party before, right?

Labour obv agree too, they haven't opposed any of it all year. Makes them worse IMO.

 

[ternur]

Need to drop a quick "mini survey" in here

Regarding the Vaccine, who on here will be going ahead, no hesitation and having it?

To keep things simple, "Like" this post if you are and " " if you're not

Cheers!

TBH, I'm not sure. Probably yes though.

Also didn't understand your convoleted instructions, so I chose differently

 

[Steviedoo]

Brian Williams?

YT brian williams scandal

He wouldn’t have survived if that scandal happened today. No way.
Cancel culture is so ready to cancel anyone and everyone who doesn’t step in line with the times.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Labour obv agree too, they haven't opposed any of it all year. Makes them worse IMO.

They haven't opposed any of it in the Commons, but they have explained their reservations every step of the way and why they also feel it necessary to support the motions, and on the most recent vote they abstained.

(I watch most parliamentary debates and every PMQs, and have done all year, so to say that Labour haven't 'opposed' any of it is extremely reductive, because I've watched the debates in the House of Commons.)

As Starmer said at the last PMQs, when he abstains he comes to the Commons and explains his reasoning to the house, when Johnson abstains (as he did on a Brexit vote whilst Foreign Secretary) he fucks off to Afghanistan on a jolly to avoid it completely and lands the taxpayer with a £25K bill in the process.

Ultimately with the majority the Tories have they can get anything they want through anyway, so to say that Labour are 'worse' than the government with the 80 seat majority, you know, the one that's actually implementing the legislation and making the laws, is quite the stretch.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Need to drop a quick "mini survey" in here

Regarding the Vaccine, who on here will be going ahead, no hesitation and having it?

To keep things simple, "Like" this post if you are and " " if you're not

Cheers!

I'm not sure what the vaccination regime will look like here, obviously we're not under the same pressure as we're Covid-free and have been since June, and as a healthy bloke in his 40s with no underlying health conditions I can't imagine I'll be at the top of the list, but as soon as it's made available to me I will get vaccinated.

Getting vaccinated (not just for Covid, but in general), is one of the best things we can do for ourselves, other people, and society at large, I think a lot of us are spoiled because we've grown up in a world where many horrible diseases have effectively been eliminated thanks to vaccines, and that only happened thanks to the scientists who invented the vaccines, and the population who then took them.

It's so easy, so safe, and so obviously a 'good thing' that we can do for each other, I can't get inside the head of people who resist it, if I'm honest.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Im in a bit of a quandary in that i believe the human race, over time, has diminished its resistance to disease. Natural selection for me, would have been the way for us to evolve. However, breakthroughs in medicine, 'playing god', virus development in labs, austerity/poverty etc means that natural selection and natural immunity has gone somewhat by the wayside - i believe.

My problem is this. I believe i am fine and will happily take the risk. But what about my kids?

In my heart i believe their best chance is to stay away from vaccines as much as possible. Of course, polio etc is and has been a matter of fact for years and they have got those but for me the flu jab is still an uncertainty.

So, in light of this years events (the pandemic) has anybody changed their opinion about getting the flu jab?

Edit: Ive just seen the previous post by Choppers lol. Get in my head @ChopleyIOM ! Get in my head!

 

[mack341]

Chop you make it sound like you're deciding this on the basis of loyalty to vaccines, i.e. they've given so much to us in the past it would be mean to say no this time

And If it's 'so safe' why do the various pharma firms need exemptions from being sued due to potential harm caused?

In a press conference with journalists on Wednesday, Ben Osborn, Pfizer’s UK managing director, refused to explain why the company needed an indemnity.
He said: “We’re not actually disclosing any of the details around any of the aspects of that agreement and specifically around the liability clauses.”

The Department of Health and Social Care confirmed an indemnity was in place for Pfizer and added that the government would be adding the

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

to the list of vaccinations covered by the Vaccine Damages Payments Act.
This pays out a one-off £120,000 payment to people who are permanently disabled or harmed as a result of a listed vaccination.

--------------

A rogue strain of the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine caused deafness in children, the Government has admitted.

Katie Stephen, 21, who lost the use of her left ear days after being inoculated, is the first known victim to prove her case to the Vaccine Damage Payments Unit.

But she has been refused the £120,000 payout for vaccine injury because she still has hearing in her other ear.

To qualify for the program, a person must be severely disabled as a result of a vaccination, and the disablement must be assessed as at least 60%.


------------

Tbh I'm struggling to get inside the heads of people that are very keen to get vaccinated with a new type of technology, for a virus with a 0.25% mortality rate on average, and which taking vit d cuts the already low risk of dying by half.

 

[Slottery]

Kind of understand that kind of exemption to be sued and some fixed amount for possible damages. All who been reading news within last 6 months, have seen and heard experts explaining how long time and testing vaccinations normally go through, some things you only can see after time and most probably if you vaccinate so huge amount of people, even under 0.01% get some damages to their health, it's more than one or two people.

It would be bit unfair to tell somebody to make 100% safe vaccine which wouldn't cause any harm for anyone, we have allergies and most of the medicines have negative side effects for a small amount of people.

It's decision made that vaccination is wanted and related risks seen smaller than covid itself, hope that nobody is not forced to take it, not really looking forward when some forced person getting any symptoms and we have big stories about it everywhere. Think it's good that people who want, can have their shot at least we get one step to some direction instead of on/off restrictions.

 

[mack341]

I haven't done a massive look into the indemnity aspect, but I'm struggling to believe if you were to develop a serious reaction [even a few years down the road] unless it amounts to a 60% disability you get bugger all. [and if it is, the compensation is limited to a maximum £120,000]

I hope someone else is willing to look into it, or knows about it already ...must make the proposition of mandatory or coercion tactics very unlikely.

 

[vorcirion]

Chop you make it sound like you're deciding this on the basis of loyalty to vaccines, i.e. they've given so much to us in the past it would be mean to say no this time

And If it's 'so safe' why do the various pharma firms need exemptions from being sued due to potential harm caused?

In a press conference with journalists on Wednesday, Ben Osborn, Pfizer’s UK managing director, refused to explain why the company needed an indemnity.
He said: “We’re not actually disclosing any of the details around any of the aspects of that agreement and specifically around the liability clauses.”

The Department of Health and Social Care confirmed an indemnity was in place for Pfizer and added that the government would be adding the

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

to the list of vaccinations covered by the Vaccine Damages Payments Act.
This pays out a one-off £120,000 payment to people who are permanently disabled or harmed as a result of a listed vaccination.

--------------

A rogue strain of the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine caused deafness in children, the Government has admitted.

Katie Stephen, 21, who lost the use of her left ear days after being inoculated, is the first known victim to prove her case to the Vaccine Damage Payments Unit.

But she has been refused the £120,000 payout for vaccine injury because she still has hearing in her other ear.

To qualify for the program, a person must be severely disabled as a result of a vaccination, and the disablement must be assessed as at least 60%.


------------

Tbh I'm struggling to get inside the heads of people that are very keen to get vaccinated with a new type of technology, for a virus with a 0.25% mortality rate on average, and which taking vit d cuts the already low risk of dying by half.

Alright...I'll start asking from you. How many people get those kind of severe adverse effects from vaccines?

By the way if all people have gotten covid in the UK. Mortality rate would be about 0,1% already (0.09%). With current numbers it's more like 3,6%. Let's say there are double the amount of covid infected people than the stats show. It still would be 1,8% mortality rate.
And where the hell you get this info that vitamin D saves 50% of those people? You're like a well of disinformation. You like to make things sound simple and good and stuff. But you're just lying or are misinformed.