Resolved Raging Bull Casino..unethical practice after months of loyalty

danchop

Newbie member
Joined
Sep 20, 2016
Location
new zealand
Being new to online casinos about a year back,i jumped in and got burnt by the lack of knowledge on what wagering and max cashouts meant...but i soon learnt..Early in the piece i joined raging bull casino,got a personal manager who even phoned me from south africa about a month after i joined for a good old chat.
When i rarely made a withdrawl it was in my account a few days later with absolute no hassles....once i learnt the negative aspects to wagering and especially max cashouts i felt using the bonuses at raging bull were a rip off, so i started using just cash only deposits.
I then graduated to thier Gold Bull VIP status and read on thier website this in relation to max cashouts for gold vip......

maximum cashout on deposit match bonuses:$20000 max cashout

and under terms and conditions was this....

For information regarding individual coupons, please visit the casino Cashier where the coupon information will be available, or contact an agent directly. Please refer to your VIP tier for more information on bonus max cashouts, etc

and in response to some historic threads on here about raging bulls max cashouts on bonuses,i found a quote from jason who is raging bulls rep,it was posted 5/8/2015 and it goes like this.....

Max cashouts are here to stay especially on the welcome bonus where we are giving you 3 x your deposit in bonus cash. Yes there is wagering attached to it and yes there are other brands that don't limit the cashouts, but we are not other Brands. We are a new brand and trying hard to build a solid operation. We have implemented a VIP program where your cashout terms are determined by your VIP status, with the top tier having no max cashouts. You guys want loyal and trustworthy casinos and we want loyal and trustworthy players. Is that so hard to understand

So now being Gold VIP i started using the bonus coupons again because 20grand was my max cashout,or so i thought....
8/9/2016 i deposited $50 using a coupon called madness which had 450% match,30 X wagering and 10 X max cashout.I finished wagering with a balance of just over $2000 and automatically my balance dropped straight to $500.
I instantly stopped and contacted live chat to inform them of my gold status,no luck there..........so i emailed my vip manager and this is where the saga began.After a couple of nonsense responses they came up with this as an out to my claim of my full balance.....

The $20000 max cashout is for the GOLDBULL coupon which you can claim twice a week. You can deposit up to $500 for this coupon to receive the maximum bonus of $1500

I replied that in no part of thier website does it say that gold tier members only recieve the $20000 max cashout reward using just one specific coupon,reading all tier levels on the website makes it obvious that your tier level denotes your max cashout,as in it overides it...
So overnight they CHANGED thier website to cover themselves and now it reads like this for Gold VIP benefits....

Maximum Cashout on Reward Tier Deposit Match Bonus: $20,000 Max Cashout

I hit a brick wall with no explanations as yet at all,the amended version of thier site just doesnt make sense because it obviously was not designed for using just the one coupon,ive pmed the jason rep from here with no response,i started a thread on raging bulls own website with no response from jason.So i resigned to cashing out my $500 plus $300 they gave as a goodwill gesture(which i declined but they wouldnt remove it from my balance)and im walking......yes walking to our nearest land casino because i simply dont trust ANYTHING online and theres diddly squat anyone can do if they simply dont respond.
 
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JasonFTA

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Location
South Africa
Hi danchop,

Thanks for the post.

I was under the impression that this matter was dealt with accordingly as when I got back the office, I was advised that you supplied your banking details and that your withdrawal was processed accordingly. Please afford me the opportunity to gather all relevant information from both your VIP host and my withdrawals manager, so that I can respond accordingly.

Thanking you in advance!

Regards
Jason
 

danchop

Newbie member
Joined
Sep 20, 2016
Location
new zealand
Far out you reply to this thread quick as anything?why nothing else was replied to?Anyway my vip manager offered me a $250 bonus with a max withdrawl of $500 first,i declined it and it was taken off....a couple of days later $300 cash was added to my balance and i said i dont want that either but it stayed there and i left my account alone hoping for some sense as to WHY the whole rewards was changed to something that now doesnt make sense?except to exclude my balance?
I hit a brickwall of no reply/explanation that i just had to accept it,ive got email convos but one was an actual phonecall from my vip manager.
It doesnt change the problem though,i have soo many unanswered questions....
Like why hasnt your sister casino with virtually the same content as yours for the rewards side,been changed at all?
Can you explain why the green and red tiers have this disclaimer in regards to the max cashouts ...20X deposit unless otherwise stipulated on coupon.....and yet the tiers above do not?
ill tell you why,its because the max cash out benefits originally listed in each tier section were intended for use with all bonus coupons and because red and green tier are entry level, you couldn't justify a 20X cashout on massive bonus giveaways like the madness coupon.
I would like your reason?
 

ThePOGG

Meister Member
webmeister
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Location
UK
Hi danchop,

Thanks for the post.

I was under the impression that this matter was dealt with accordingly as when I got back the office, I was advised that you supplied your banking details and that your withdrawal was processed accordingly. Please afford me the opportunity to gather all relevant information from both your VIP host and my withdrawals manager, so that I can respond accordingly.

Thanking you in advance!

Regards
Jason

Hi Jason

First off apologies to the OP for this derail and no further posts will be made in this thread regarding this issue.

We've actually got an open complaint against RagingBull and I've been emailing yourself and another rep about this since late June. It was initially a productive conversation but we stopped getting responses from you at the end of July. I realise you may have chosen to disengage from the conversation, but wanted to give you a heads-up where I knew you'd see it in case this was unintentional and something like spam filters were preventing our emails getting through.

Feel free to drop me an email at [email protected] if you want to pick the conversation up again.

Thanks,

TP
 

JasonFTA

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Location
South Africa
Hi Jason

First off apologies to the OP for this derail and no further posts will be made in this thread regarding this issue.

We've actually got an open complaint against RagingBull and I've been emailing yourself and another rep about this since late June. It was initially a productive conversation but we stopped getting responses from you at the end of July. I realise you may have chosen to disengage from the conversation, but wanted to give you a heads-up where I knew you'd see it in case this was unintentional and something like spam filters were preventing our emails getting through.

Feel free to drop me an email at [email protected] if you want to pick the conversation up again.

Thanks,

TP

Hi There

Yeah, I recall the conversation but never received further correspondence. I will respond to the above mentioned email addy and cc [email protected]. Please ensure that you reply to all when replying. In the event that my FTA email address blocks the email, I can at least pick it up in the VIP inbox.

Regards
Jason
 

JasonFTA

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Location
South Africa
Far out you reply to this thread quick as anything?why nothing else was replied to?Anyway my vip manager offered me a $250 bonus with a max withdrawl of $500 first,i declined it and it was taken off....a couple of days later $300 cash was added to my balance and i said i dont want that either but it stayed there and i left my account alone hoping for some sense as to WHY the whole rewards was changed to something that now doesnt make sense?except to exclude my balance?
I hit a brickwall of no reply/explanation that i just had to accept it,ive got email convos but one was an actual phonecall from my vip manager.
It doesnt change the problem though,i have soo many unanswered questions....
Like why hasnt your sister casino with virtually the same content as yours for the rewards side,been changed at all?
Can you explain why the green and red tiers have this disclaimer in regards to the max cashouts ...20X deposit unless otherwise stipulated on coupon.....and yet the tiers above do not?
ill tell you why,its because the max cash out benefits originally listed in each tier section were intended for use with all bonus coupons and because red and green tier are entry level, you couldn't justify a 20X cashout on massive bonus giveaways like the madness coupon.
I would like your reason?


Hi Dan,

Thanks for your added feedback.

The coupon in question that you claimed was called MADNESS which is not a VIP coupon. On our website it says that max cashout on VIP MATCH BONUSES is $20000, this is pertaining to the GOLDBULL VIP coupon and not the MADNESS coupon that you redeemed and subsequently withdrew from.

The MADNESS coupon was a standard monthly retention coupon which had no exclusivity and was sent to our entire depositing database and not targeted to specific VIP groups.

You mention the Grand Fortune rewards program, one the supreme tier (similar to GOLD VIP) it mentions "Exclusive range of bonuses". The $20K max cashouts apply to those exclusive range of promotional offers and not to all retention offers.

Based on the MADNESS coupon, you were eligible for payment of AU$ 497.37 after converting the coupon to AU$500 and playing a bit down to AU$ 497.37. Please bear in mind that we did not remove the sticky bonus of 225 from your payment. We also added an additional AU$ 302.63 to your withdrawal to make it a total of AU$ 800 and sent that to your bank account on Friday.

We made these adjustments in your payment because you are a VIP customer and to make up for any confusion caused regarding the whole GOLDBULL tier max cashout system.

Point 10. In our Bonuses and Promotions Terms and Conditions we state: “All bonuses, unless otherwise stated, have max cashouts and wagering requirements. Please consult the Cashier or a support agent for more information pertaining to specific bonuses”

When I look further into this coupon I noticed at the time of converting your coupon (completing the wagering requirements) your balance was AU$ 2006.51 and a coupon reversal of AU$ 1506.51 was done to leave you with the maximum amount that you can cashout which is AU$ 500 (10 X AU$ 50 as stated on the MADNESS coupon terms and conditions). At no point was your balance AU$ 20000 in order for you to withdraw.

My final conclusion to resolve and close this matter as well as to retain you as a VIP with our casino is as follows:

Pay you the remaining amount due once the coupon reversal and cashout of AU$ 800 was complete, this will result in us paying you the remainder of AU$ 1206.51 – Balance at the time of coupon reversal LESS the amount already paid to you (AU$ 2006.51 – AU$ 800).

Regards
Jason
 

spintee

Ueber Meister
webby
mm2
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Location
Northants
I am glad that your still about Jason, I have sent a few players to your site in the last few days, from across the waters, I just showed them the path to your site without and credits to myself, (affiliate)

I have not played due to the block elwaltes have done from U.K but might take a look in a bit,

Now from the OP's perspective is that it would be unviable to have no max cashout on every bonus, Hense it makes sense for only on them speicial VIP offers,
 

danchop

Newbie member
Joined
Sep 20, 2016
Location
new zealand
i never said i had 20grand aud,and yes,now the site states the max cashout for Gold VIP members only pertains to the one VIP coupon,BUT the site and the rules were changed when i brought up my issue....
Anyway im not going to harp on more about it,if indeed you intend to repay my balance back to $2006 as you say above.
I also never intended to cash out at that point either as it was the start of the weekend for me,and as you know jason from my previous history,ive played away balances over $2000 down to nothing quite a bit...i only stopped because of the problem..anyway thanks
 

Googobucs

Meister Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Location
Florida, USA
Jason

I have been playing at Raging Bull for a long time and noticed a similar issue a while back. I dont uses bonuses any more so it's not an issue for me but your VIP tiers state:
Maximum Cashout on Reward Tier Deposit Match Bonus: *20X Deposit unless otherwise stipulated on coupon.

When I did use a bonus many moons ago I wondered why the max cashout was not 20X as stated. This statement reads to me that based on this tier, my max cashout on Deposit match bonuses is 20X. I do not read this as you intend that only the tier bonus is 20X.

Again, not an issue for me since I dont use a bonus but you may want to re-word this or just remove it completely and put it on the specific bonus coupon.
 

BMWSTACK

Ueber Meister
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Location
US
once i learnt the negative aspects to wagering and especially max cashouts i felt using the bonuses at raging bull were a rip off, so i started using just cash only deposits.
I then graduated to thier Gold Bull VIP status and read on thier website this in relation to max cashouts for gold

and in response to some historic threads on here about raging bulls max cashouts on bonuses,i found a quote from jason who is raging bulls rep,it was posted 5/8/2015 and it goes like this.....

Max cashouts are here to stay especially on the welcome bonus where we are giving you 3 x your deposit in bonus cash. Yes there is wagering attached to it and yes there are other brands that don't limit the cashouts, but we are not other Brands. We are a new brand and trying hard to build a solid operation. We have implemented a VIP program where your cashout terms are determined by your VIP status, with the top tier having no max cashouts. You guys want loyal and trustworthy casinos and we want loyal and trustworthy players. Is that so hard to understand

I had always commented their max cashouts were a rip off. They even put a max cashout on a 50% match.

I do recall the conversations of no max cashout based upon tier. Very disappointing that they even play games with that by only allowing a special coupon to have no max cashout.

For the bonus users--If people become the highest tier that means typically lots of deposits, hence a majority of people at a higher level will be significantly down. How about the one time you win good and you have a max cashout because of bonus usage :eek:. Bonus usage at this casino = house dominance with never a way to get ahead.

Hi Jason

First off apologies to the OP for this derail and no further posts will be made in this thread regarding this issue.

We've actually got an open complaint against RagingBull and I've been emailing yourself and another rep about this since late June. It was initially a productive conversation but we stopped getting responses from you at the end of July. I realise you may have chosen to disengage from the conversation, but wanted to give you a heads-up where I knew you'd see it in case this was unintentional and something like spam filters were preventing our emails getting through.

Feel free to drop me an email at [email protected] if you want to pick the conversation up again.

Thanks,

TP

Sometimes the public attention will help in getting a response. Understand on having to jump in. Do you have the records that show the unanswered contacts? Not the you need to show them, just want to know that multiple contact have gone unanswered. I really hate the old "I didn't see any other messages from you" when we all know they went answered unintentionally.

I am glad that your still about Jason, I have sent a few players to your site in the last few days, from across the waters, I just showed them the path to your site without and credits to myself, (affiliate)

I have not played due to the block elwaltes have done from U.K but might take a look in a bit,
,

Sorry Spin but this looks like nothing more than a nudge for a free Hindus for those "referrals " in the "last few days". ;)
 

spintee

Ueber Meister
webby
mm2
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Location
Northants
Sorry Spin but this looks like nothing more than a nudge for a free Hindus for those "referrals " in the "last few days". ;)

May be :eek2: Was not ment to be, I am sure If I really wanted a free chip for doing that than I would of message Jason with the user's name/s

Infact it was not even two days I pointed R Bull out to theses people, Its been some time since I played RTG and the last site was RB
 

danchop

Newbie member
Joined
Sep 20, 2016
Location
new zealand
Jason

I have been playing at Raging Bull for a long time and noticed a similar issue a while back. I dont uses bonuses any more so it's not an issue for me but your VIP tiers state:
Maximum Cashout on Reward Tier Deposit Match Bonus: *20X Deposit unless otherwise stipulated on coupon.

When I did use a bonus many moons ago I wondered why the max cashout was not 20X as stated. This statement reads to me that based on this tier, my max cashout on Deposit match bonuses is 20X. I do not read this as you intend that only the tier bonus is 20X.

Again, not an issue for me since I dont use a bonus but you may want to re-word this or just remove it completely and put it on the specific bonus coupon.
Thats my whole point....the terms now dont make sense,the site terms were changed the night i queried my case.Before september those terms you quoted above read exactly this....(and note these are the terms for green and red which are the two lowest tiers)

• Maximum Cashout on Deposit Match Bonuses: *20X Deposit unless otherwise stipulated on coupon.

This made complete sense in that the terms were intended for any bonus used, not one specific bonus related to your tier.When it was rehashed that night,Deposit Match Bonuses was replaced with Reward Tier Deposit Match Bonus, but they mistakenly left the original disclaimer in,which is why i say that it now makes no sense..
I told my Vip manager this,i alerted them through thier own websites forum about it,and yet its still there?
I agree that a casino has the right to change its terms and conditions at any stage,BUT please dont condemn the customer who played by every rule fairly when the original terms meant he was correct.The situation could have been handled better,and this is what the first response to me from my Vip manager should have read like....

Hi dan,because we are a relatively new casino, you are the first to bring this to our attention regarding our reward tier cashout terms.You are correct in that how it reads now, your balance of $2006 will be reinstated,minus the initial bonus amount of $225.
The terms however are not what the casino intended and will be revised and changed for the future,but good spotting and great luck with your balance.
 

JasonFTA

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 14, 2015
Location
South Africa
Hi Dan,

Honestly, I was not aware of any changes made to the t's and c's as I will booked off ill when this incident occurred. Bottom line is, the VIP program and related bonuses have a different set of terms and conditions than general promotional offers, thus the general t's and c's also state that the max cashouts on all bonuses are 20 x deposit unless stated otherwise.

In the terms of the MADNESS coupon it stated that the 660% match had a 10x max cashout and the 450% and 280% bonuses a 20x max cashout. Those were the promo specific terms. If the intention was to base the max cashout terms on VIP tiers, we would have stated so in the MADNESS promotion terms and conditions.

Hey Spintee, long time no chat!! Regarding those referrals, I guess you did not use the referral system (as you being blocked) - I guess a THANKS is in order though.

Regards
Jason
 

SlotsLover

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Location
California
max cashouts = ripoffs

As I've said many times on this forum, max withdrawals are a ripoff. I don't have the ability to do the exact analysis, but I'm willing to wager that with any reasonable wager size on any medium variance game or higher (say even 5% of starting balance = 10% of deposit on a 100% bonus) the effective return to player with a 10x max cashout is LESS THAN 80% and probably much lower. All of the 1000x thread payouts at $5/spin would be reduced from $5000 to $500 (assuming $50 deposit) and every random jackpot would be halved if not much worse.

I just don't understand why people don't see this. Raise the wagering requirements, whatever you like, but NO MAX CASHOUTS, they really are cheating the unwitting player. Imagine what the effective RTP would be on GUTS with a 10x max cashout??? I shutter to think.
 

chiya

Senior Member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Location
Earth
As I've said many times on this forum, max withdrawals are a ripoff. I don't have the ability to do the exact analysis, but I'm willing to wager that with any reasonable wager size on any medium variance game or higher (say even 5% of starting balance = 10% of deposit on a 100% bonus) the effective return to player with a 10x max cashout is LESS THAN 80% and probably much lower. All of the 1000x thread payouts at $5/spin would be reduced from $5000 to $500 (assuming $50 deposit) and every random jackpot would be halved if not much worse.

I just don't understand why people don't see this. Raise the wagering requirements, whatever you like, but NO MAX CASHOUTS, they really are cheating the unwitting player. Imagine what the effective RTP would be on GUTS with a 10x max cashout??? I shutter to think.

Too bad you're somewhat mistaken here. Jason has explicitly stated multiple times on this very forum that the max cashouts they have on their bonuses do NOT apply to random jackpots. So if you win a 5K random jackpot, when your max cashout is $500, you should still receive that 5000 .. on top of the 500 I believe.

I hope it's not just all talk though from JasonFTA as I'd hate to one day win the said random jackpot and then have my balance automatically reduced once wagering was completed due to the maximum cashout rule.
 

SlotsLover

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Location
California
Too bad you're somewhat mistaken here. Jason has explicitly stated multiple times on this very forum that the max cashouts they have on their bonuses do NOT apply to random jackpots. So if you win a 5K random jackpot, when your max cashout is $500, you should still receive that 5000 .. on top of the 500 I believe.

I hope it's not just all talk though from JasonFTA as I'd hate to one day win the said random jackpot and then have my balance automatically reduced once wagering was completed due to the maximum cashout rule.

In this particular case I agree to stand corrected about random jackpots, but the majority of the 1000x payouts thread are not random jackpots anyway. Adding in the randoms was just gravy to my argument.

Anyone with a slots simulator care to determine how much the max cashout costs players and reduces rtp?
 

ThePOGG

Meister Member
webmeister
Joined
Feb 17, 2012
Location
UK
Sometimes the public attention will help in getting a response. Understand on having to jump in. Do you have the records that show the unanswered contacts? Not the you need to show them, just want to know that multiple contact have gone unanswered. I really hate the old "I didn't see any other messages from you" when we all know they went answered unintentionally.

We retain records on the progress of every complaint submitted to the site, even if we can see immediately that it's non-valid. However in this instance I don't believe that the above is likely to be an accurate reflection of the situation. I can't go into too much detail at the present time but after communications stopped, the player has subsequently received a couple more instalments of their balance. That being the case it would seem that Raging Bull do have every intention to pay and there's been some failure in the communication chain, though that failure is still significant as it would prevent us managing other issues.

Jason - I will respond to your emails as I work through our complaints today. I would have responded yesterday, but had to travel to a meeting with the UKGC and the WIFI on the train wasn't working.

TP
 

BMWSTACK

Ueber Meister
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Location
US
As I've said many times on this forum, max withdrawals are a ripoff.

I just don't understand why people don't see this. Raise the wagering requirements, whatever you like, but NO MAX CASHOUTS, they really are cheating the unwitting player.

Agreed. It's easy to get addicted, brainwashed and so on. I have heard so many excuses from people who want to defend these horrible terms. People do things that are harmful everyday so I guess it's just human nature. Now the best one they have is the 50% bonus with 20x max. Can you imagine someone depositing $20 to get $10 and it turns it into a max cashout of 20x because of a $10 50% bonus. :confused: Bernie Madoff could have used a scam like this and he wouldn't have gone to jail.

Anyone with a slots simulator care to determine how much the max cashout costs players and reduces rtp?

I couldn't even imagine the amount of money that gets removed. I am sure it's huge. Keep in mind that the people that get a large win and know they have max cashout will start betting large and some will get huge wins that are worthless.

I am sure the real RTP is low, but I am sure that it's based upon what the machine pays out and not what the cashier pays out. This looks better for raging on paper, and makes it look like a large RTP.

Just look at their list of winners or the winners they post in their forum. I have seen multiple large wins on the same machine, so yes indeed they are not all randoms, and I agree a tiny percentage are randoms. Most of those "winners" are misleading because most get a small percentage, and again a lot of those are people just playing the money they will never get playing in a "fun mode" mentality betting large.

We retain records on the progress of every complaint submitted to the site, even if we can see immediately that it's non-valid. However in this instance I don't believe that the above is likely to be an accurate reflection of the situation. I can't go into too much detail at the present time but after communications stopped, the player has subsequently received a couple more instalments of their balance. That being the case it would seem that Raging Bull do have every intention to pay and there's been some failure in the communication chain, though that failure is still significant as it would prevent us managing other issues.

TP

Looks like a slow pay. Such a shame when they have $2500 weekly limits (low limit) and they still can't pay people on time. I have seen other complaints out there on slow pays.
 

spintee

Ueber Meister
webby
mm2
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Location
Northants
You have to remember guys bonus is an option and not compulsory,

I can bring up just about every casino bonus terms in one way or another, If you do not like the bonus than do not take it,

No one is holding funds or deposit by ransom, The rules are clearly there and to be fair albeit them sites are not the most trusted (some we can let off) But have some of the most transparent rules going,

If you do not like the bonus than do not accept it, If you know the max withdraw is below your threshold than do not play,

We can bang on all day about how bad rules are and alot of sites have got them,

I do know this post was about a rule change max capp on wins but come on, You cannot expect to take all bonus and have no limits,

I am a bonus man, Twice I have been stiffed in way over 10 years due to most stupid rles on the planet, No one with a bit of brains would alow theses rules with the U.K regs

I am not saying what the rules are are right, But they are the rules
 

shewoff

Senior Member
webby
mm1
Joined
May 13, 2015
Location
northeast
I have read this thread from start to finish and I have my 2 cent's to put in.I at first felt that RB was a good casino for the average and above player's. But after a few small win's and a good deal of not being paid the correct amount.
I stopped all play at RB because of the apparent difference between what is owed and what is paid? I disagree with the option's at the time of WD's it was Wire Transfer's and Check if I recall maybe BTC before my involvement with them.I had a few small win's and there was a large lag in time submitted and time paid. Mainly on the 2nd win?

I contacted Jason via PM here with my concern's and admittedly so he tried to be helpful and then the VIP manager became involved and it all went to hell.I'm sure you may recall Jason,If not I still have all of the PM's we had.

It appear's that there was some size and amount difference's between the charge for wire's and fee's?And at the end of it all i'am still owed $20.00 by the casino That I was told by the VIP manager would be paid on my next win.
I have to say impressed I was not! The fact that a $20.00 bill was too much just to add in to my acct.Maybe but no next time? Well I have to say NO WAY!No next time to get short cut for winning.

Some may disagree and some may not But the fact remain's that even at a early start RB seemed unable to get the T&C and the fee's and charge's correct.Any naysayers will be meet with the PM's in full.Peace Out! Out Of The Mist! shewoff
 

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