Corona virus - Covid 19 discussion

[mack341]

Daily mail saturday 18th june 2022:

WHO chief 'believes Covid DID leak from Wuhan lab' after a 'catastrophic accident' in 2019 despite publicly maintaining 'all hypotheses remain on the table'

While publicly the group maintains that ‘all hypotheses remain on the table’ about the origins of Covid, the source said Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, director-general of the World Health Organisation (WHO), had recently confided to a senior European politician that the most likely explanation was a catastrophic accident at a laboratory in Wuhan, where infections first spread during late 2019.

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The process of 'learning about a new virus' doesn't add up if it was man-made, because the wuhan scientists and research funders likely knew all about what Covid could do and how it would do it. Could be why the vaccine hasn't been particularly stellar as you're vaccinating against something that behaves in odd ways, was basically souped-up to enhance transmission, hence the vaccinated are still catching it.

 

[ladyhawke]

Daily mail saturday 18th june 2022:

WHO chief 'believes Covid DID leak from Wuhan lab' after a 'catastrophic accident' in 2019 despite publicly maintaining 'all hypotheses remain on the table'

While publicly the group maintains that ‘all hypotheses remain on the table’ about the origins of Covid, the source said Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, director-general of the World Health Organisation (WHO), had recently confided to a senior European politician that the most likely explanation was a catastrophic accident at a laboratory in Wuhan, where infections first spread during late 2019.

----------

The process of 'learning about a new virus' doesn't add up if it was man-made, because the wuhan scientists and research funders likely knew all about what Covid could do and how it would do it. Could be why the vaccine hasn't been particularly stellar as you're vaccinating against something that behaves in odd ways, was basically souped-up to enhance transmission, hence the vaccinated are still catching it.

The key words in the first part of the quote are "source" and "recently confided", without any evidence presented at all to confirm that statement. This from the Daily Fail, which is notorious for misquoting, misreporting, sensationalism and click-bait headlines.

However, Australia has been punished heavily by China - both economically and investment wise - for leading the push for an inquiry into both the origin and development of the virus, and how it managed to be released. If China was indeed not responsible for COVID, then why this very heavy-handed response?

It is possible (based on China's reaction to date ) that somehow or other, the virus occurred naturally, but had started to spread through the population, and China was trying to understand and control it through gain-of-function, when it escaped the lab. That could explain why the virus is behaving "in odd ways", and why no vaccine to date has been 100% effective, as it is a lethal combination of both natural and man-made.

 

[goatwack]

The thing with our Press is that there's no clear distinction between them anymore, or different takes, as one need only seek out any one piece currently being reported and find almost word-for-word copies, as any internet search will attest to! And this isn't exclusive to the Red Tops either, but the more 'distinguished' publications too

So for all its sins, the Daily Mail isn't alone in its quest for terrible journalism - near-enough all of them are run by illiterate hacks who simply regurgitate the same guff. What the DM excels at is having more than most, I'd even read a 'piece' not that long ago where the journo had typed 'Hungry' as a country, and found them repeating this throughout. But hey, lest we forget, there's no finer place if you want to see pap shots of a makeup-less celeb or 'throwback' galleries of Z-listers!

So short of having classified information on the exact source of the Covid outbreak, pretty much everyone goes by the slop they're fed in the News, and are left to figure out the pieces by themselves, with the official narrative changing almost daily, not to mention 'alternative' news outlets severely frowned upon.

And yet one can't help but wonder whether we've been 'had', or situations manipulated to suit certain parties, nor whether blackmailing people under threat of losing their freedoms was really the right way to go. You can rest assured that the next 'wave' of Covid is already in the works, as governments try to drum up more restrictions....

But the real questions still remains: did it come from bat soup? Is the bat soup theory still valid? I need to know!

 

[ladyhawke]

But the real questions still remains: did it come from bat soup? Is the bat soup theory still valid? I need to know!

Perhaps vegetarianism could be a wise move, here. Just sayin'.

 

[goatwack]

Perhaps vegetarianism could be a wise move, here. Just sayin'.

Ha! I knew it! You're a vegan saboteur! You want us all to eat bugs!!

 

[ladyhawke]

Ha! I knew it! You're a vegan saboteur! You want us all to eat bugs!!

Crickets!

 

[casguy2016]

Crickets!

honestly i'd trust eating a cricket over the beyond meat stuff. i fail to see how a burger that has more salt content is healthier than the real thing...but thats just me

 

[Kroffe]

But the real questions still remains: did it come from bat soup? Is the bat soup theory still valid? I need to know!

I almost cut out all bat from my diet in the beginning, only kept the daily bat-breakfast & bat-brunch so i wouldnt get withdrawals.


I cant believe Ladyhawke... 'vegetarianism could be a wise move'
Has she never heard of fruit bats? Does she think they are made out of meat?
'No fruit salad for me im afraid, its full of meat'

 

[ladyhawke]

I cant believe Ladyhawke... 'vegetarianism could be a wise move'
Has she never heard of fruit bats? Does she think they are made out of meat?
'No fruit salad for me im afraid, its full of meat'

Fruit bats are called flying foxes over here, and they can be an absolute nuisance. But they are very, very cute.

 

[Kroffe]

Fruit bats are called flying foxes over here, and they can be an absolute nuisance. But they are very, very cute.

 

[mack341]

The key words in the first part of the quote are "source" and "recently confided", without any evidence presented at all to confirm that statement. This from the Daily Fail, which is notorious for misquoting, misreporting, sensationalism and click-bait headlines.

However, Australia has been punished heavily by China - both economically and investment wise - for leading the push for an inquiry into both the origin and development of the virus, and how it managed to be released. If China was indeed not responsible for COVID, then why this very heavy-handed response?

It is possible (based on China's reaction to date ) that somehow or other, the virus occurred naturally, but had started to spread through the population, and China was trying to understand and control it through gain-of-function, when it escaped the lab. That could explain why the virus is behaving "in odd ways", and why no vaccine to date has been 100% effective, as it is a lethal combination of both natural and man-made.

Also from the DM earlier this year: [generally I take everything in the papers with a pinch of salt, other than the sports results, but this story below relates to emails written by top scientists between themselves]

Leading Western experts believed a lab leak was the 'likely' origin of Covid but were silenced because it could cause harm to Chinese scientists, bombshell emails show.

Sir Jeremy Farrar, who publicly denounced the theory as a 'conspiracy', admitted in a private email in February 2020 that a 'likely explanation' was that the virus was man-made.

The then-UK Government adviser said at the time he was '70:30 or 60:40' in favour of an accidental release versus natural origin.

In the email, sent to American health chiefs Dr Anthony Fauci and Dr Francis Collins, Sir Jeremy said it was possible Covid had been evolved from a Sars-like virus in the lab. He went on that this seemingly benign process may have 'accidentally created a virus primed for rapid transmission between humans'.

But the British scientist was shut down by his counterparts in the US who warned further debate about the origins of the virus could damage 'international harmony'.

He was told by other scientists with links to virus manipulation research that it could cause 'unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular'.

Sir Jeremy claimed in his emails that other respected scientists also believed the virus could not have emerged naturally. Names included Professor Mike Farzan, the Harvard researcher who first discovered how the original Sars virus binds to human cells.

Despite his concerns, Sir Jeremy went on to sign letters in The Lancet a fortnight later denouncing anyone who believed in the lab leak theory as bigoted.

 

[interlog]

omfg its exactly what they said! from Biden to Boris, Macron to Trudeaux, all the build back better WEF bullshitters, changed their tune months after when obv people were seeing it was rubbish, to you wont get the effects as bad, hahah thats not a vaccine!

Did they? I must have missed that one then. Care to link to some quotes were Boris Johnson has said that you don't get Covid if you are vaccinated.

 

[goatwack]

Now, everyone avert your eyes if the DM glare is too much to bear

Here's snippet of potential foul play in rushing out a vaccine in an unfinished state, to make a mint out of millions of people. Who'd have thunk it?

I guess with the vaccine Space Race that ensued it could never come to pass that any other government other than Russia's could do this, although it's worth bearing in mind that this is not something that couldn't be at least looked into in greater detail, even if just based on a 'team of researchers'......

Dr Sheldrick said his analysis 'doesn't necessarily mean the vaccine doesn't work' but admitted he would not take Sputnik himself

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[Kroffe]

Now, everyone avert your eyes if the DM glare is too much to bear

Here's snippet of potential foul play in rushing out a vaccine in an unfinished state, to make a mint out millions of people. Who'd have thunk it?

I guess with the vaccine Space Race that ensued it could never come to pass that any other government other than Russia's could do this, although it's worth bearing in mind that this is not something that couldn't be at least looked into in greater detail, even if just based on a 'team of researchers'......

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Dr Sheldrick said his analysis 'doesn't necessarily mean the vaccine doesn't work' but admitted he would not take Sputnik himself

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Pfizer also 'shuffled' around with trial data to make it look like they wanted.
Just alot of negative stuff from trials that 'disappeared' or was ignored.

I guess that is what you get when companies compete to get first to the billion dollar prize.
Pfizer & Moderna have projected $51 billion in vaccine sales for 2022.
No wonder they are going to start vaccinating unders 5s in USA, all those shots have to go somewhere.

 

[casguy2016]

I think if you are trying to compare to Russia's handling you are reaching. In the end rushed or not rushed the numbers are there to support the vaccines even if it's just a very very good placebo effect.

 

[mack341]

 

[sufferinsilence]

What's so strange about Biden saying that? This one isn't over yet but there is always the chance for another pandemic around the corner.

It's not like this is something new, there have been pandemics for err... thousands of years.

 

[goatwack]

I think it's important to stay ahead of the curve, especially when Joe Bike-dent says there's definitely going to be one!

 

[mack341]

What's so strange about Biden saying that? This one isn't over yet but there is always the chance for another pandemic around the corner.

It's not like this is something new, there have been pandemics for err... thousands of years.

But another one within his term? Hopefully it is just the usual demand to 'shake the magic money tree' democrats and labour cannot live without, rather than the truth has slipped out due to any forgetfulness/dementia he might suffer from.

We can't go through the lockdowns again surely?

A pandemic is generally off the back of a new illness which the population has no protection to, afaik

 

[sufferinsilence]

But another one within his term? Hopefully it is just the usual demand to 'shake the magic money tree' democrats and labour cannot live without, rather than the truth has slipped out due to any forgetfulness/dementia he might suffer from.

We can't go through the lockdowns again surely?

A pandemic is generally off the back of a new illness which the population has no protection to, afaik

There could be another one tomorrow, or in 15 years time. We don't know.

I know you want to read into what he's saying as in there'll be one within the next couple of years while he's in office but I don't think that's what he meant. There has to be more funding going into general preparedness.

After the "dud" that was the Mexican flu we let our guard down and then another pandemic came along, not even a very severe one in terms of IFR, where too many people who didn't need to die died. People are still dying from this disease today. Cases are on the rise right now but we are living like nothing's happening while a couple of small mitigating factors could save lives and people suffering from long covid. But hey, when you wear a mask in a crowded area certain people posting in here will apparently laugh at you...

I'm not going to go through the whole discussion once again, it's been years and nobody of the frequent posters has changed their minds really. Not me, not you, none of the regulars. So I'll leave it at that.

 

[ladyhawke]

... Joe Bike-dent ...

Going on a rant here, Goatie. Apologies in advance.

But why do you find it funny - or hilarious if you are a DM reader - that a nearly 80-year old fell off his bike?

 

[mack341]

There could be another one tomorrow, or in 15 years time. We don't know.

I know you want to read into what he's saying as in there'll be one within the next couple of years while he's in office but I don't think that's what he meant. There has to be more funding going into general preparedness.

After the "dud" that was the Mexican flu we let our guard down and then another pandemic came along, not even a very severe one in terms of IFR, where too many people who didn't need to die died. People are still dying from this disease today. Cases are on the rise right now but we are living like nothing's happening while a couple of small mitigating factors could save lives and people suffering from long covid. But hey, when you wear a mask in a crowded area certain people posting in here will apparently laugh at you...

I'm not going to go through the whole discussion once again, it's been years and nobody of the frequent posters has changed their minds really. Not me, not you, none of the regulars. So I'll leave it at that.

It will be human activity causing a new virulent virus, one way or the other, either in a research laboratory or from intensive factory farming of animals, poor sanitation, wet markets and bushmeat etc..

I don't think the preparedness Biden, or other leaders want, is going to reduce these chances, if it was targeted at tackling the root causes and factors most capable of creating a new illness and pandemic that would be money well spent.

 

[sufferinsilence]

It will be human activity causing a new virulent virus, one way or the other, either in a research laboratory or from intensive factory farming of animals, poor sanitation, wet markets and bushmeat etc..

I don't think the preparedness Biden, or other leaders want, is going to reduce these chances, if it was targeted at tackling the root causes and factors most capable of creating a new illness and pandemic that would be money well spent.

We don't usually agree but in this case 100% agreed!

 

[slot_zombie]

Cases are on the rise right now but we are living like nothing's happening

And that's exactly as it should be. Casedemic...

 

[sledge13]

And that's exactly as it should be. Casedemic...

Lol just wait a few months, its all planned...they are renaming Monkeypox aswell, the new fear for the sheeple...Germany already saying masks will be mandatory this autun/winter....will use the usual winter flu cold deaths yet again, this is the WEF/WHO in charge...control.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Wow, this thread has got a little heated.

I think people falling off of bikes is funny, no matter what age, don't want them hurt, it's just funny to me. And I think I have seen a change in some opinions as a result of our civilised discussions.

The announcement another pandemic is on the way is nothing new, but it being so prevalent in the press is, and I get the impression we are looking at yearly scaremongering now, rather than something to be fearful of every few decades.

The only logical conclusion that I can find from my limited understanding of this, is that it is because socially defunct mega-rich people want more money and control.

 

[goatwack]

Going on a rant here, Goatie. Apologies in advance.

But why do you find it funny - or hilarious if you are a DM reader - that a nearly 80-year old fell off his bike?

Apologies.....not accepted

Highlighting said fall or satirizing it isn't akin to someone keeling over in fits of laughter or finding it 'hilarious', but then any criticism of the great man himself results in default TDS, because how dare anyone mock this buffoon in whatever he does, eh!

Most people would agree that it's actually a tragedy that this dementia-ridden man is being wheeled out (pun intended) by people wishing to manipulate him when he's clearly not fit to run in office.

And if an 80-year old's daring enough to be cycling then with that comes potential risk, same as if a 10, 30 or 50-year old had done it. Is there an age limit as to when people are allowed to comment on someone falling off their bike? ?

The fact the he'd been going at about 2 MPH, stopped and keeled over whilst having his feet in the spokes, as one of many 'worrying' public cognitive failings of his, should be of grave concern to anyone, not ignored and gaslighted. Thankyou ?

 

[goatwack]

Remember when populations were forewarned of diseases resurfacing that we thought we'd collectively long subdued?

Well I present to you:

Polio!

And from London too!

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[Kroffe]

Remember when populations were forewarned of diseases resurfacing that we thought we'd collectively long subdued?

Well I present to you:

Polio!

And from London too!

View attachment 169055

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Im not saying this guy has anything to do with it..but i wouldnt rule it out.

 

[ladyhawke]

Apologies.....not accepted

Highlighting said fall or satirizing it isn't akin to someone keeling over in fits of laughter or finding it 'hilarious', but then any criticism of the great man himself results in default TDS, because how dare anyone mock this buffoon in whatever he does, eh!

Most people would agree that it's actually a tragedy that this dementia-ridden man is being wheeled out (pun intended) by people wishing to manipulate him when he's clearly not fit to run in office.

And if an 80-year old's daring enough to be cycling then with that comes potential risk, same as if a 10, 30 or 50-year old had done it. Is there an age limit as to when people are allowed to comment on someone falling off their bike? ?

The fact the he'd been going at about 2 MPH, stopped and keeled over whilst having his feet in the spokes, as one of many 'worrying' public cognitive failings of his, should be of grave concern to anyone, not ignored and gaslighted. Thankyou ?

What a truly nasty response.

You have jumped on the "Biden has dementia' bandwagon with a vengeance - a slur started by Trump and his acolytes.

Biden does NOT have dementia. Yes, occasionally he misspeaks - who hasn't done that, irrespective of age? - but he then corrects himself. He is coherent and articulate - no bigly or bestest or covfefe or stable genius references in his well-written, well-spoken speeches.

So he had an accident when cycling at a low speed, and you call that "worrying public cognitive failings". What about incidences of of that very same thing happening among professional sportsmen? Clumsiness and accidents are not just the province of the elderly.

The reason I made my original comment was due to an elderly man being the target of derision. The fact that it was Biden was incidental.

"But then any criticism of the great man himself results in default TDS, because how dare anyone mock this buffoon in whatever he does, eh!.."

I am at a loss to understand where this vitriol is coming from. At one point in time, I loved reading your posts, as they were well balanced, and factual.

Not any more, as you really have taken the art of belittlement and demeaning someone to another level totally

And to those who liked your post - birds of a feather, and all that.

 

[goatwack]

What a truly nasty response.

You have jumped on the "Biden has dementia' bandwagon with a vengeance - a slur started by Trump and his acolytes.

Biden does NOT have dementia. Yes, occasionally he misspeaks - who hasn't done that, irrespective of age? - but he then corrects himself. He is coherent and articulate - no bigly or bestest or covfefe or stable genius references in his well-written, well-spoken speeches.

So he had an accident when cycling at a low speed, and you call that "worrying public cognitive failings". What about incidences of of that very same thing happening among professional sportsmen? Clumsiness and accidents are not just the province of the elderly.

The reason I made my original comment was due to an elderly man being the target of derision. The fact that it was Biden was incidental.

"But then any criticism of the great man himself results in default TDS, because how dare anyone mock this buffoon in whatever he does, eh!.."

I am at a loss to understand where this vitriol is coming from. At one point in time, I loved reading your posts, as they were well balanced, and factual.

Not any more, as you really have taken the art of belittlement and demeaning someone to another level totally

And to those who liked your post - birds of a feather, and all that.

Correctomundo! I'm a hate-filled Trump-supporting bigot that positively revels in mocking the elderly!

To be honest, I couldn't care less about your strange assertions and your righteous indignation if something doesn't align with your views, so short of carrying on with this bilge you can happily block me and I'll block you, and everyone's happy

And for the record, I'll happily resume calling out or commentating on topical issues, whether it be Biden falling off his bike, Boris, Macron or Jimmy Carter, and not because Ladyhawke deems it worthy of censorship. Thanks for the memories

 

[sufferinsilence]

It's getting hot in here ?

 

[goatwack]

edit: oh shit, it's about me!

 

[sufferinsilence]

But seriously, what's going on? First monkeypox, earlier today we hear about polio in London and now I just read this

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It's all going down at once, no pun intended.

 

[goatwack]

I was going to 'add' this earlier but didn't want to bestow too much good news in one day:

> Forbes link. Can't be DMing everything!

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[ladyhawke]

To be honest, I couldn't care less about your strange assertions and your righteous indignation if something doesn't align with your views,

Yup...starting a new group called The Righteous Sisters. I still fail to see how one comment about an elderly man has now caused your own righteous wrath to be directed my way.

so short of carrying on with this bilge you can happily block me and I'll block you, and everyone's happy

Block me. Who cares. I am not going to return the favour as I am not a coward.

And for the record, I'll happily resume calling out or commentating on topical issues, whether it be Biden falling off his bike, Boris, Macron or Jimmy Carter, and not

Calling someone out "on topical issues" is totally different to what you were doing.

because Ladyhawke deems it worthy of censorship. Thanks for the memories

So....freedom of speech is only valid for you, not for anyone else? Disagree with you on any issue, and hoo boy, you start screaming censorship! censorship! censorship!

But of course, you won't be reading any of this, as you have now blocked me....happy trails.

 

[casguy2016]

But seriously, what's going on? First monkeypox, earlier today we hear about polio in London and now I just read this

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It's all going down at once, no pun intended.

i'm not sure the experts even know for sure and i'm no expert but I'm guessing it's a combination of people not vaccinating their kids (and themselves) like they used to which makes herd immunity harder to do for various viruses. As well a lot of people not getting exposed to various viruses over the last couple of years suddenly mingling with each other....(I'm not talking sex parties here but i'm sure those are happening as well lol)

 

[goatwack]

Yup...starting a new group called The Righteous Sisters. I still fail to see how one comment about an elderly man has now caused your own righteous wrath to be directed my way.


Block me. Who cares. I am not going to return the favour as I am not a coward.


Calling someone out "on topical issues" is totally different to what you were doing.


So....freedom of speech is only valid for you, not for anyone else? Disagree with you on any issue, and hoo boy, you start screaming censorship! censorship! censorship!

But of course, you won't be reading any of this, as you have now blocked me....happy trails.

Yes, I've blocked you, naturally. Even though I haven't. But as you were

I recall you singling out my apparent glee as an avid DM- reader at an elderly man's mishap. What you'll find is various instances of his diminished mental capacity peppered in various comments, but of course you went with the pre-emptive attack about an 80-year old man.

I don't profess to like Biden or his presidency, but of course you had to turn it personal! Like I said, put any prominent figure in that clip and it would have got equal coverage

 

[pinnit2014]

It's getting hot in here ?

'So take off all your clothes?'

Done - what next?

 

[bamberfishcake]

Commenting on Biden does not make you a Trump sympathiser, supporter or anything else you want to call someone.

It seems impossible to have an opinion nowadays without pigeon-holing the thought into left, right, or wherever else others decide another person's opinion should sit.

Personally have nothing against either Trump or Biden, but come on, let's get real, would you put either in charge of running a country? It's a laughable mockery of a so-called democratic system. And if you cannot see the wool being pulled over your own eyes, you are more brainwashed than you know.

Falling off of a bike is funny to some, and not to others. The guy can barely hold court on a microphone - that's not world leadership quality. Just because he is old, doesn't mean you should feel sorry for him and the position he is in, what a circus western democracy is.

p.s. Football Managers get sacked after a season of poor results, our world leaders get voted in for another 4 years, now that is hilarious...or is it?

 

[Rodemar]

I look, apparently, I didn't retreat much, the situation has normalized

 

[bamberfishcake]

 

[dunover]

Younger blokes fall off of bikes too.

 

[pinnit2014]

Some people fall off chairs as well - takes all sorts, i guess.

 

[dunover]

Yes, I've blocked you, naturally. Even though I haven't. But as you were

I recall you singling out my apparent glee as an avid DM- reader at an elderly man's mishap. What you'll find is various instances of his diminished mental capacity peppered in various comments, but of course you went with the pre-emptive attack about an 80-year old man.

I don't profess to like Biden or his presidency, but of course you had to turn it personal! Like I said, put any prominent figure in that clip and it would have got equal coverage

Actually, for all his faults Boris does rather well on bikes, even rides them competently around indoor obstacles.

(Although less well on the Krypton Factor-style 3D puzzle)

 

[goatwack]

I suppose one shouldn't be so wary, I'm pretty sure this rollickin' rollout will be the sole preserve of the most vulnerable in society, and not be the start of governmental Covid strong-arming. Just no more graphs, PLEASE!

"Uh-oh"

And just five times more effective? FIVE!?!

Makes it ten, then we'll talk

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[goatwack]

Hey, remember when the Government, and specifically Boris called the NHS our greatest asset? How 'we will win because of our NHS'? How they were the shining ray of hope in a time of uncertainty, and its workers to be revered, as the plaudits kept rolling?

Well, forget that shit, seems like that's a distant memory now. Back to being overworked and underpaid it is then, now that the worst is over!

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[paul7388]

Hey, remember when the Government, and specifically Boris called the NHS our greatest asset? How 'we will win because of our NHS'? How they were the shining ray of hope in a time of uncertainty, and its workers to be revered, as the plaudits kept rolling?

Well, forget that shit, seems like that's a distant memory now. Back to being overworked and underpaid it is then, now that the worst is over!

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To be fair tho NHS staff get better sick pay conditions than most.

A lot of workers only get sick pay for a couple of weeks at the most and many just get statuatory sick pay,

The NHS normal conditions are six months full sick pay so they know any time they are off for a few weeks they will still get full pay.

 

[pinnit2014]

To be fair tho NHS staff get better sick pay conditions than most.

A lot of workers only get sick pay for a couple of weeks at the most and many just get statuatory sick pay,

The NHS normal conditions are six months full sick pay so they know any time they are off for a few weeks they will still get full pay.

It's been something they've been trying to make tacit steps to review over the years. When i was there there were calls to introduce a condition of not being paid for the first X days sickness but all that would have achieved would have been people staying off for longer, even if fit to return, so talk around it was scrapped.

But yeah, lower base pay/less overtime? v suped up pensions/occupational maternity pay and sickness: hard to know many private companies matching some of that.

 

[mack341]

Worth a full listen, seems to me he's in truthful mode here, unexpected things can happen with experimental new vaccines. Now be fully honest again, have they with the present jabs.