Casino Software coding ideas

Pulver

Dormant Account
webmeister
PABaccred
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Aug 5, 2009
Location
Tellus
Welcome to the forum and good luck with your plans, I will be checking out your project for sure. :thumbsup:
 

3Dice

Accredited Casino Representative
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Location
-
jstrike's recipy for player disaster ?

goodie goodie.

You just made me spit out my coffee. Let me try to say this in the nicest possible way. You clearly have absolutely no idea what you are talking about - or what you are doing. There are things wrong with just about everything you've suggested and its not just math knowledge you are lacking.

Let me illustrate one point. A 5k float and an American roulette that pays 36 to 1 on spots with a maximum bet of $5 ? .. recipe for disaster ..

I've wrote a quick simulation for you (you're real good at those - so feel free to verify) ..
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
. (runs a lot faster in google chrome). The difficult part is never writing the simulation - it is figuring out which simulation to write. This one calculates the odds you'll go bust on your first 50 players (depo 100, betting 5 on spots) with a 5k float. (odd first player wins over 5100 plus odd second player wins over 5200 etc .. )

That's over 20% (after 200k simulations).

That's a 1 in 5 chance you wont be able to pay in just the first 50 players.


It's also not taking into account transaction costs, server costs, staff, contingency, bonuses, the works.

I can think of a dozen of other reasons of why you'll go bust faster than the speed of light. You're so far out of your league its not even funny anymore. You wont often find me making predictions but here we go. I predict disappointment. For both you and your players.

Honestly, for 5k, you'll have a hard time finding someone that is actually capable of calculating the amount of float you need..

Unless you find proper funding - the only sensible advice is to stop.

Enzo
 

davey

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Joined
Oct 21, 2010
Location
Coffs Harbour Australia
Mate Here come's the negativety

Took longer than I thought for the negativety to arrive mate but there you go. Don't know how enzo knows all your financials - maybe he's with the tax office. You're a smart bloke and been around long enough to know what type of float you will need and I am sure you would have enough financial backers to cover the inevitable bad days.
Everyone knows fair dinkum casinos pay out around 97% so I would imagine all your planning would revolve around this fact.
Anyway mate go for your dreams and don't listen to the knockers and I hope you make a million or two... but don't forget to come back here and let us help you count it. (in front of enzo)
Best of luck
Davey
 

Nifty29

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Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Sorry, but enzo is right.

A $5k float? You may as well send a $100 to the first 50 signups and pack it in.

I also believe he is doing JS a favor........ but, you know what they say about a fool and his money.

Personally, I hope he succeeds. It ain't gonna happen this way though.
 

jstrike

Dormant account
Joined
Nov 16, 2010
Location
Europe
Yyyeah.

Hi Enzo. I've heard good things about you and about 3Dice, from everyone here. And yes, I'll admit I'm out of my depth, but that's not unusual for me. I take projects first and learn as I go along, and work at it until I get it right. For instance, the first time I ever contracted to write a piece of hotel management and reservations software, I was just a web designer. Didn't even know mySQL. I had to learn as I went, going back and rewriting earlier parts as I learned more later on. It took me almost nine months. But that software, which is about 100,000 lines of code, has been running with no crashes, no bugs, 24 hours a day in six locations with around sixty employees using it, for the last four years. This casino software is about 4x bigger and I've been working on it for three years. There's no way I'm going to let a little thing like being under-financed stop me from finding a way to make it work.

One little note about your test -- The roulette tables will have $1 max on inside bets to start, and a $5 max on outside bets. That, at least, gives me a 0% probability of going bust in the first 50 players, according to your sim, with a $5k float. (with 100 players, yes).

The initial float is $5k. There's a crisis option for another $5-10k. And that amount is separate from marketing, servers, legal and everything else, so let me clear that up. That's after all is said and done. All the house games are going to start with very low stakes. Like 5¢ slots with a max $100 jackpot. And if we find ourselves in danger early on, we'll let our players know that the house can't take further bets on those tables at the moment, and we'll go back to only poker and board games until we build up. Initially, this was conceived as a poker and parimutuel game club with no house games; those are secondary to the project and were added later. It would be nice to have them, but if they start to put too much strain on us, we'll have to turn them off before we get to a critical level, and build a bigger float. I think players will understand that. This is new software, a new site, and the first players will necessarily be early adopters looking for a boutique, small, social game experience.

I don't really expect to launch with 50 roulette players, either. I've launched sites for plenty of other people before. It ain't easy to get an audience these days, without media coverage, without huge marketing funds. I expect we'll probably pick up a couple new depositing players a day, at first. The whole plan is to grow sloowwwly. I'd like to reach 1,000 poker players by 6 months after launch. That would cover costs and pay for a couple of part time staff, and increase the float so we could start increasing some of the stakes. Before that, almost all of my marketing efforts are going to be toward building up specific poker tournaments, as opposed to promoting house games or trying to build a house around the clock, which is impossible without a foothold.

Don't worry man. We're not going to put you guys out of business. I think our game model is substantially different, unique in its own way, and will appeal to different players than yours. I know you're not really worried about it, you think I'm a damn fool and you're entitled to your opinion. I want you to know I have the greatest respect for you and your team. And I appreciate you taking the time to write that sim and respond with a thorough opinion.
 

jstrike

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Location
Europe
By the way. I noticed one little thing wrong with your sim, Enzo... shouldn't:

if (Math.random() < odd) bal+=pay*bet

read:

if (Math.random() < odd) {bal+=pay*bet} else {floatbal+=bet;}

? We're bootstrapping this. I never said the float was going to stay at $5k. It's just starting there.
 

3Dice

Accredited Casino Representative
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Location
-
By the way. I noticed one little thing wrong with your sim, Enzo... shouldn't:

if (Math.random() < odd) bal+=pay*bet

read:

if (Math.random() < odd) {bal+=pay*bet} else {floatbal+=bet;}

? We're bootstrapping this. I never said the float was going to stay at $5k. It's just starting there.

nope it shouldn't read that. every run the sim stores how much it goes over the initial float in this line :

Code:
ret[ Math.floor((bal - floatbal - startbalance) / startbalance)] = 1;

so if ret is [1,1,1,0,0,...]
if means this run went over 5100, 5200 and 5300.

the final odd is then calculated as the odd to go over 5100 + the odd to go over 5200 + the odd to go over 5300 etc .. this is also clearly printed in the listing if you run the simulation.

So the simulation assumes a float of 5100 for the first player, 5200 for the second player etc .. (i.e. if it doesn't bust you, you use the full deposit to increase your float).

Enzo.
 

jstrike

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Europe
Okay. I misunderstood what your simulation was doing. I usually think recursively, this is kind of an inversion of how I solve things. But I think I understand it now.

Tell me if I'm wrong about this. You're allowing that the odds of a single player going $100 over the float from a $100 starting balance, are the same as the odds of two players going over the float by a cent from the same start. Another way of saying it is that you're looking at how many times a single player would go over by $100, $200 and so on up to going over by $5000, the assumed total of starting balances plus the original float. And yet another way of saying it would be to say that one player could re-deposit 50 times and overrun the existing float, including his deposits N% of the time. Right...?

I have two things to say about this. The first is that, with an 80% probability of not busting, and higher if we restrict it to $1 tables, plus the parimutuel games kicking in rake as we go along, it's a bet I have to take. My alternative is spending the rest of my life in a fluorescent office space.

The other thing is, none of this is happening all at the same time. This is a process. No one player is going to take the float, because we'll have to close the game at some point before that and explain our situation to the player, cash them out and ask that they understand we're a small house and can't take bets beyond a certain point. By not being recursive, your sim doesn't provide for the fact that by the 50th player's 1000th spin, we'll have been in business for six months, and have enough money to bank the bet.

Sure. We could get wiped out right out of the box. My answer to that is, better to give away $5k and have tried. I'd rather give $5k to a bum in the street who promised me a rainbow than keep grinding out apps for other people for the rest of my life. So if that answers anyone's question about whether I'm an idiot, yeah, I guess I am. Life's too fucking short. I put thousands of hours into this thing, I saved my nickels and dimes. If it lasts two days and I give away $5k, well, fine. Take my money. To me, running this thing for two days is better than a vacation to the Bahamas.
 

Pulver

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webmeister
PABaccred
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Tellus
Good luck, but I would seriously try to get some backers... If your software turns out to be good, I am sure there are people willing to invest in the project. I don't think anyone would play in a casino where they know funds are scary low, and at a place where you don't have the chance to hit "the big one", let alone get paid if you do.

Anyways, I admire your courage and your fighting spirit.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
Players definitely lose confidence in casinos that they perceive to be underfunded.

There may be a middle ground between never doing it and doing it right now, allowing you to find additional funding, or save further to increase your float.
 

jstrike

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Location
Europe
I hear that, Jasmine. I think starting heavy on poker and board games is my best option. This whole conversation is making me reconsider opening table games at all before I've got the funds... but if I do, it'll be good odds, but really cheap stakes only. And the watchword is, paid the same day, always. I mean, maybe there's not much of a crowd for $1 blackjack, but I'm only going to bank what I can afford. As long as it's understood that no payout is ever late, and I'd close down the site before I let that happen, I'm hoping I can build a little cult following. That's all I ever really wanted out of life anyway.

I'm not saying I'm not doing this for money, because obviously I like money. But if I were to consider all my options and the ways I could use my skills, and weight that against the odds of success, this wouldn't even make the top ten things I could be spending three years of my life on. So somehow it's either a ...I don't want to say like a kamikaze death dive, although according to Enzo maybe that's what it is... it's just being what I am. And perceptions can be what they're gonna be, as long as everybody gets paid at the end of the day, and there's nothing to pitch a bitch about. I'm not actually giving up my day job, in case anyone here's afraid for my sanity. This is just...my ultimate garage project. Which I hope people will take for what it is. Personally, I'd rather play cards in the garage of a guy I knew, than on a site owned by a billionaire with a private jet somewhere. That ain't the sales pitch, but maybe it should be.
 

asianeyes

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U.K.
Hi, Jstrike. I think you have some positive ideas and i believe you will make the players your #1 priority.

P.S. I like the sales pitch.
 

pevangel

Meister Member
Joined
Mar 23, 2005
Location
FLORIDA USA
Hi jstrike, Welcome to Casinomeister forum and I think you will do great, I am anxious as everyone else to see the final product:D.


pevangel
 

Simmo!

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
Sounds like an interesting project. For the record and feedback though I would need to see it licenced in a pucker jurisdiction and be transparent in info/funding were I to play.

GL though

Simmo!
 

jstrike

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Location
Europe
Thanks, Simmo.
I've actually been in touch with the Curacao people, and if all goes well I want to have it licensed and moved over there within a year or so...as soon as I can afford to do it. Right now, their licensing and bandwidth costs would eat my budget for breakfast. But I recognize the value in it. 'Til then, I'm just going to make as much information public as I can, and be extremely transparent to make up for not having a government officially behind me. I also want to invite some world class gaming analysts to come over and try it out, if they're willing to give it an independent look see for a reasonable price. Haven't contacted the Wizard yet, I hear he's pretty hard to get. But I've been in touch with a respected guy who does a lot of similar work on new table games.
I realize it's a handicap not being licensed, so it's a top priority. I figure it will double how far my marketing money goes, when I have that seal of approval. First I have to actually get this monster running and making some money though. It's kinda like building an airplane out of spare parts and then trying to get it certified. Basically I know it can fly if I'm flying it, and I'm going to add passengers one at a time and watch and see what happens, and fix what needs to be fixed. And once it flies, I know I can get it certified. But there's a lot to be done between here and there.
 

Casinomeister

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Staff member
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Welcome to the forum jstrike :D

Btw - I'm renaming and moving this thread to the Online Casino section since it'll probably get more exposure/responses over there.

Cheers!

Bryan
 

StaceyLee

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Joined
Jun 17, 2010
Location
Australia
Oh geez, it's late and I'm tired and I am gonna get my arse kicked for this post but here goes and I will eat my humble pie in due course.

Jstrike you are good, you are very, very good. But sorry I'm with Enzo on this one! "Web Designer" etc, etc. You are out to make a quick buck, actually a retirement buck, which is a lot of money in one foul swoop and granted, if in truth this has been a 3 year project then it's well worth it. It has taken 3 years of playing with other revenue internet projects and major research in this industry to capitalize.

You found the niche - what is the weak spot in this industry! Player dissatisfaction because of low returns and suspicion about being given a fair go!!! Okay, so how can one capitalize on that! Umm....make an offer too good to refuse by marketing the weak spot. So lets say you get just 10% of THIS forum to "give it a go" that's, (sorry forgive my ignorance but let's just look at the most viewers on-line stats of about 10,000) - so 10% of 10,000 get warm and fuzzy with you and deposit, say $100, to "give it a go" coz you reak of a guy that is "true blue" and you deserve a "fair go mate" just like the the rest of us - that's a deposit into your casino of $100,000 .... mmm that's a tidy sum just from here! And all you have to back this up is 5K. Your quote:

"Sure. We could get wiped out right out of the box. My answer to that is, better to give away $5k and have tried. I'd rather give $5k to a bum in the street who promised me a rainbow than keep grinding out apps for other people for the rest of my life. So if that answers anyone's question about whether I'm an idiot, yeah, I guess I am. Life's too fucking short. I put thousands of hours into this thing, I saved my nickels and dimes. If it lasts two days and I give away $5k, well, fine. Take my money. To me, running this thing for two days is better than a vacation to the Bahamas. "

"Life's too fucking short" is very professional and I'm sure mate that you'll be running this thing for less than 48 hours and vacationing in the Bahamas while you concoct your next internet marketing scam!

Sure for the first X amount of hours before the shit hits the fan you can make a few payouts using your 5K, then cry "broke", which you have done as a possibility in a few of your posts, and walk away with a cool $95,000 just from this site! And the worst that's happened to you is you're out of business and ended up in the rogue pit, which you knew was gonna happen anyway. And yay you're happy with that coz you planned it every step of the way - hell I'd go into the rogue pit if it meant I was paid to do it!

I don't have time to pick this to pieces to justify my argument here, but briefly you quote:

"No one player is going to take the float, because we'll have to close the game at some point before that and explain our situation to the player, cash them out and ask that they understand we're a small house and can't take bets beyond a certain point."

So I guess it's just bad luck for the lucky winner who has to wait to see if your "true blueness" is gonna pull through, while in the meantime you walk away. Many of your players are gonna "jag" a winning streak early in the piece, be it martingale or some other betting strategy that's gonna lose money for them in the long run - how you gonna hold off the early winning streaks and keep a reputation. But, I think you know all this - you've done your research buddy and you know what to say.

Verification also seems to be a bit of a bitch in the forum and you nicely soothe that one over by saying you will, what, personality check everyone by visually looking at their photo's. You must have a lot of people working for you, coz I can't see how you are going to have the time to personality check 10,000 people in a day - so how are they all going to be paid with a 5K business float?

You quote that you have legal advisers but a big question over this is found in your quote:

"'Til then, I'm just going to make as much information public as I can, and be extremely transparent to make up for not having a government officially behind me. I also want to invite some world class gaming analysts to come over and try it out, if they're willing to give it an independent look see for a reasonable price. Haven't contacted the Wizard yet, I hear he's pretty hard to get. But I've been in touch with a respected guy who does a lot of similar work on new table games."

Nice, very nice, mention the Wizard, without verification from the Wizard, then quickly back it up with your "respected guy", which implies that "your unkown guy is as reputable as the wizard". Come on! Oh, sorry yes, you are also very skilled at marketing hypnosis and the wonderful power of suggestive marketing.

Your marketing strategy here is "honesty"! I hope, in the name of sincerity that you cut the mustard, but sorry, you can count me out!

Sorry members, I know this is rushed, messy and needed a lot more structure and back-up. But, what the hell, honesty is a virtue and if in the long run this proves itself then I will join the ranks. But as much as I am a player, I am continuing to play 5 months later "having made one initial deposit, (which was withdrawn once doubled) and a few $K withdrawals since being made from my winning bankroll" - because I always protect my bankroll along the way.

In other words JStrike I made your 5K in a couple of months with $1 bets, how many losers do you need before you gonna please me?????

Cheers
StaceyLee
 
Last edited:

jstrike

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Europe
First of all, like you said, three years and endless amounts of research that take up all my free time, night times and weekends, isn't what I'd call a "quick buck". I mean, I don't even expect to see a profit from this business for the first year. I'd say what I'm doing is the total opposite of a quick buck. It's the hardest project I could imagine doing. It takes all my time, all my thought when I'm not working my day job, to handle everything from programming to filing patents to graphics, marketing, and that's not even including running the beta tests and tournaments, and taking the feedback from players and rewriting over and over again, or the dent it's putting in me to spend another $10k right now on servers and lawyers out of my own pocket. I've got a compulsive personality. I put it into this.

And I don't know what's wrong with me trying to make money off of my hard work.

About three years ago, I finished a big programming project that paid me around $70k over six months. The owners then cashed it out for about 5x that, based on hype. Their buyers then went out of business because there was no revenue model, like a lot of hyped up websites. I sat down and I wrote a list of what I could do with my skills, for myself, that would make me the most money in the long run. And starting a casino was at the top, but it was also the hardest and the riskiest. I fell in love with the idea anyway, and I started writing code, and just kept plugging away at it.

I want to be clear I'm not trying to make false claims here, I'm not saying I'm offering better odds, hell, a lot of my odds will probably be marginally worse than bigger casinos because my profit margin will be slim at first. The niche that I see is that people are unsatisfied with a lot of the big casinos for a whole bunch of other reasons. And there's room for a small house that grows slowly, focuses on doing a few games well, and has a personal relationship with its players. So much of the software out there is terrible too, and the casinos have no incentive to reinvent the wheel. Well, I have incentive. And that's how progress gets made. That's capitalism.

And of course I'd like people from this site to give it a try once I get it started, that ain't a big secret. I don't see why that's a crime. I'm not coming on here with some piece of existing software and making a bunch of claims that I'm gonna run a fairer, friendlier site with better odds than the next guy. I'm on here to ask for advice on something I've built from scratch, that I'm still making changes to, so that before I start, hopefully I've taken all the good advice I can here so I can deliver a site that people would want to play at. If big casino reps got on here and asked all the time, "what would you like to see us improve on," and then actually took that advice and spent the next three days rewriting their software, maybe there wouldn't be so many unhappy players out there, and there wouldn't be a niche for me.

Anyway, you wanna knock me for trying to build something so I can get out of my 9 to 5 once and for all? I mean, why should anybody take a risk and sacrifice their time and energy trying to do anything great, if there's no pot of gold out there at the end of it.
 

jstrike

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Location
Europe
I'm sorry, only the first couple paragraphs of your post had shown up before I responded. I just read the rest.

All I can say is hooey. I'm starting small -- I mean, I'm taking MAX a couple hundred signups in the first couple days no matter how many people want to sign on. I doubt if I'll even get that many. 10,000 deposits?! Are you nuts? This is only going to grow as fast as I think is responsible, and when I can afford to grow it right. I'm NOT just trying to run a casino, I'm also trying to build a reputation for my software which is worth more than any one casino would ever be. And much, much, much more than a hit and run scam would be. And forget about the damage to my reputation.

You got me all wrong. I'm sorry you're bitter and angry and are so ready to assume that I'm a liar, but you've got no right to accuse me of things when you have no idea who I am, what I've done or how much of my own reputation is going on the line with this project. I don't want you at my damn website and I wouldn't take your money if you were throwing it at me. How dare you accuse me of spending three years of my life cooking up a scam.

And I DID try to contact the Wizard and he didn't get back to me, but I had a player who knows him, and gambles with him sometimes, and who does similar work, testing my site for awhile. I didn't try to lie about any of that. I won't name him because he's not part of the project and he hasn't done a full analysis yet and I'm not going to use him as proof of anything.

Look, in the end, you'll see that it's not a scam, and you'll see who I am, and that I have a lot more to lose by trying to cheat people than I could ever gain from that. Until then, this is a bunch of unfounded accusations that I don't think I did anything to deserve.
 

jstrike

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Location
Europe
Hey and ALSO, saying I could run out of float and have to stop some games for awhile is NOT the same as walking off with anybody's money. That's where you really go off the rails. Alright. You think I'm some lousy scumbag. Sour grapes is all I hear. Enough. I don't even want to hear any more of this. I gotta go have a drink and cool off.
 

rockycatt

meistercatt
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Location
Boston
well jstrike you seem to have a passion to give the casino thing a go

i like the idea of new blood entering the game as did 3 dice a few years back and they got raked over ,but proved to be a asset to the gaming community

you remind me of them because your propriety owned soft ware

the players today are way smarter than in the past and will reward you
if what you say is true /and destroy you if you aren't honest

that being said im a optimist the glass is always half full
caveat here is only one sentence for a thief the rogue pit

i hope you turn out a good product , R C
 

rockycatt

meistercatt
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Location
Boston
Hey and ALSO, saying I could run out of float and have to stop some games for awhile is NOT the same as walking off with anybody's money. That's where you really go off the rails. Alright. You think I'm some lousy scumbag. Sour grapes is all I hear. Enough. I don't even want to hear any more of this. I gotta go have a drink and cool off.

jstrike i hope that you dont have to run for a drink every time some one with literary skills shoots at you
being a casino owner that wont shine in front of your workers or players
i hope you have the stamina for this type of endeavor
 

jstrike

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Europe
Nope. Just needed a minute to get some fresh air and cool down. Stacy's attack was well written, but totally unnecessary and vicious. I don't think anything I've said or done here should have called my basic motivations and my integrity into question to the degree that someone's gonna call me a thief before I've even started my site. Hell. If I wanted to steal a bunch of money, Stacey, why would I go around telling people I'm starting this site on a $5k float, with $1 roulette? Or you think that's all part of my evil plan somehow, too?

I know there's some people who just want to rake you over the coals no matter what, and that's fine, that's why I needed to cool my jets a minute out there. Stacey, instead of thinking, "if this guy's the sneakiest, evillest guy ever, what would he do," and then applying your smarts to imagining what the worst possible thing I could do would be, and then accusing me of planning it, maybe you could give me the benefit of the doubt for a bit. I don't even have a site yet. I'm asking people here what they'd like to see in a new piece of casino software, while it's still being revised. ok...?

edit: By the way, rockycat...I did have a drink. I don't know if you caught this thread when it started in the Introduction section, but the name of it was, "I'm JS and I'm an alcoholic". I'm not proud, or ashamed. Just about a 4 on a scale from 1 to 10.
 

StaceyLee

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Jun 17, 2010
Location
Australia
JStrike enjoy your drink, but do it for pleasure! I'm actually chuffed that I could be responsible for driving someone to drink, when in fact on occasion I have been the victim of someone driving me to have a drink.

As for "lousy scumbag" - cmon JStrike you are trying to market yourself for what may well be legit reasons, which means you want people to "give their money to you". How the hell are you gonna protect your "reputation", (need to know exactly what that is, by the way), when you cannot professionally engage in a conversation with a potential client that is doing what a majority of people do before purchasing a product, i.e.test drive it, challenge it, ask about warranty, etc, etc, etc.

Is this the type of response that I, (sorry not I, but your future clients, as you have banned me before you've opened your doors), are to expect when they have a problem. Is this your way of resolving disputes?

I'm actually a nice, honest person too, but are you going to believe that just because I tell you so. Why don't you give me your 5K, I will double it for you in 2 months, (while you work on the logistics of your venture), and then give it back. Having then proved myself to you maybe I will be privileged to be accepted into your "club of honesty".

Don't get me wrong - read into this what you want - But I would love nothing more than a world where one doesn't have to take off the "rose coloured glasses". So I am, believe it or not, quite in favour of the type of business you purport and do actually wish you well, if there is no "scumbag" hidden agenda.

But as warm, fuzzy and attractive as your ideals sound, you didn't sell me. No loss to you, of course, as I am merely one in a million. Perhaps you could prepare yourself in future for those disguised "devils advocates" - for how we react in life is often very determinable on what happens next!

Cheers
StaceyLee
 

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