Casino Robots

jpm

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
Mar 29, 2002
What do you mean Lanidar? Are you talking about the Viper software or something else?
 

Clayman

Dormant account
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Mar 12, 2004
Location
Pennsylvania, USA
A little irresponsible to suggest

"Calculated after observing many thousands of hands of online Blackjack, the Casino Robots Advanced Strategy appears to eliminate the small percentage advantage usually enjoyed by online Casinos - thus tipping the scales in favour of the player."
 

jpm

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
Mar 29, 2002
I suppose that if you assume the scales are tipped heavily towards the casino, then tipping them back towards the player would be a more accurate statement. Unless its bringing its own cards to the table, its not going to eliminate the house edge :lolup:

Did you notice the inference to this being the way the pirate of c21 won the $1.3mil?
 

Clayman

Dormant account
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Location
Pennsylvania, USA
jpm said:
Did you notice the inference to this being the way the pirate of c21 won the $1.3mil?

Good point. I doubt more than very much if it's true.

Guess they forgot to mention, if it were true, and people had used their product, they would not have won anything. :)
 

jpm

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
Mar 29, 2002
Ok, that's what I thought you meant.

I don't think you could really call that a robot, its more of a game mode. I would think of a robot as something that would run concurrently with the casino software and take the place of the player. If its programmed correctly, it will play perfect strategy and take any 'human error' out of the game and maximize your return. But it can't give you any more return than the games odds allow. In otherwords, it can't turn a negative expectation game into a positive one, which is what they seem to be intimating in their ad.
 

lanidar

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Joined
Sep 5, 2003
Location
Avenel, New Jersey
jpm said:
Ok, that's what I thought you meant.

I would think of a robot as something that would run concurrently with the casino software and take the place of the player. If its programmed correctly, it will play perfect strategy and take any 'human error' out of the game and maximize your return.


Thank you JPM.
I truly appreciate your response and your opinion.
(You have ALL those little GREEN squares next to your name) :thumbsup:
I'm not being argumentative...not at all. :)
I just don't know much about this and I'm curious.
When some one uses Autoplay isn't the casinos software playing against the casinos software...using perfect strategy :confused:
 
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jpm

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
Mar 29, 2002
No problem Lanidar, I didn't think you were being arguementative at all.

I had the same thoughts regarding the casino playing against itself with the autoplay feature. I'm still not sure why they would give you a way to play perfect strategy on almost every game (though on slots, there really isn't such a thing). More than one person has said that you need to modify the strategy tables on the BJ games in order have the correct strategy for autoplay. It looks like the VP games are all playing correct strategy, at least the ones that I've done spot checks against Winpoker were right.

I guess since almost all, if not all, have a house edge, then they are still going to make money even if everyone plays perfect strategy. I don't think either of the deuces wild games are full pay, and those would be about the only ones I could think of that could give the player an advantage.

Now, if you add in comp points to a game with a very low house edge, you could potentially have a positive return (assuming they give you comps for those games).
 

lanidar

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Sep 5, 2003
Location
Avenel, New Jersey
jpm said:
More than one person has said that you need to modify the strategy tables on the BJ games in order have the correct strategy for autoplay.

I know what the strategy tables are.
Why and how does one modify the tables?
What would be changed?
At Lucky Nugget I play Europen Blackjack.

Thank JPM...I don't mean to be a pain.
Every little bit of an edge helps. :)
 

jpm

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
Mar 29, 2002
I read someone here (maybe Clayman or Grandmaster) who said to check the strategy table in the casino game against the basic strategy chart on Wizard of Odds. As I recall, there were only a couple of changes that needed to be made.

Go into the game and make sure you're in expert mode. You should see the Autoplay button and a Strategy button below it. Click on the strategy button and you can check and if necessary modify the table. Then be sure to save your change before you go back to the game.
 

Clayman

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Location
Pennsylvania, USA
jpm said:
I'm still not sure why they would give you a way to play perfect strategy on almost every game

My guess is that Viper was a good way to replace the single-deck game that had a 0.1% HA to one 4 times worse, while being able to increase WR's by claiming they have now allowed the "bad" players to play perfectly.

I really don't know what the current Viper default auto-cheat strategy table is but I do know I had to change several plays to adjust to a double-deck game at the Fortune Room.

Has anyone else had to make changes to the default strategy table? If so, I wonder how much using the default strategy table would cost the player against each of the various BJ games offered. Is the default strategy table correct for ANY offered BJ game?

Lanidar - best thing is to get the right strategy for the game you are playing and compare it to the default table. Initially set Viper at a slow speed until you are sure it plays all the hands correctly. Strictly from memory (that means completely unreliable) I had to make it hit a 9 vs 2 rather than double. Stand on an A,7 vs 8 rather than hit, and hit an A,7 vs 10 rather than stand. These last 2 plays are rather costly if played wrong. Also I'd check out all the low pairs to make sure auto-cheat is splitting properly instead of doing goofy stuff like hitting a 6,6 vs 2.
 

chucho

Bonus Pimp
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
Let's start by assuming the the Wizzard Of odd's Blackjack charts are correct. Then we should play Vegas Strip at Microgaming casinos as it has the best players odds, slightly better than Euro BJ. Then we should change 4 different default split options as set in the Viper software, 2,2, 3,3, 6,6, and 7,7. You can figure out what is wrong when comparing the default MG chart to the Wizzards chart. For example, the MG default autoplay settings have you split 3's against a dealer 7, when the correct play is to hit it. Now the real question is how can someone play at, for example, a Boss Media casino using autoplay? Is their such a software that works/exists and that is not detected my the casino?
 

GrandMaster

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Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
chucho said:
For example, the MG default autoplay settings have you split 3's against a dealer 7, when the correct play is to hit it.

No, the correct play is to split 3,3 vs 7 under any set of rules I can think of.

Here is my list of corrections to Viper autoplay default strategy:

Euro BJ
9 vs 2: double/hit
Soft 18 vs 8: stand
Soft 18 vs 10: hit
6,6 vs 2: split/hit

Vegas Downtown
Soft 18 vs 4,5,6: Double if possible, else stand

Atlantic City
Soft 18 vs 4,5,6: Double if possible, else stand
6,6 vs 7, 7,7 vs 8: Hit

Vegas Strip
Soft 18 vs 4,5,6: Double if possible, else stand
6,6 vs 7, 7,7 vs 8: Hit
9,9 vs 8 or 9: Split if possible, else stand.
 

Clayman

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Location
Pennsylvania, USA
GrandMaster said:
Euro BJ
9 vs 2: double/hit
Soft 18 vs 8: stand
Soft 18 vs 10: hit
6,6 vs 2: split/hit

Just what I remembered! I'm amazed.

I guess you have confirmed that the default is wrong for EVERY BJ game they offer.

If they were honest, they would make it play perfectly for at least one of the games. Heck, it would be simple to make auto-cheat play perfectly for each of the games - just make 4 or 5 tables. If they can do it for different VP games, they could do it for BJ.

Any chance you can easily figure out, guesstimate, how costly playing the default would be for any/all of the BJ games you mentioned? Just wondered how much extra the poor sucker who knows know better pays for using the auto-cheat. Probably not a huge amount but still....
 

chucho

Bonus Pimp
Joined
Oct 27, 2003
GrandMaster said:
No, the correct play is to split 3,3 vs 7 under any set of rules I can think of.

Here is my list of corrections to Viper autoplay default strategy:

Euro BJ
9 vs 2: double/hit
Soft 18 vs 8: stand
Soft 18 vs 10: hit
6,6 vs 2: split/hit

Vegas Downtown
Soft 18 vs 4,5,6: Double if possible, else stand

Atlantic City
Soft 18 vs 4,5,6: Double if possible, else stand
6,6 vs 7, 7,7 vs 8: Hit

Vegas Strip
Soft 18 vs 4,5,6: Double if possible, else stand
6,6 vs 7, 7,7 vs 8: Hit
9,9 vs 8 or 9: Split if possible, else stand.

I only checked Vegas Strip against the wizzards chart and the only thing that needs to be changed is 6,6 against a dealer 7 hit, not split, and 7,7 against a dealer 8, hit not split. Everything looked the same as the wizzards chart.
 

lanidar

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Joined
Sep 5, 2003
Location
Avenel, New Jersey
lanidar said:
Thanks JPM. :notworthy
I'm going to play European Blackjack tomorrow at Lucky Nugget.
I'll post my outcome.
I deposited $50 got the $200 bonus....
I was destroyed!!!
ALL GONE

My sons played here and this was the FIRST time we ever lost . :confused:
Just a bad day. :oops:
 

GrandMaster

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Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
chucho said:
I only checked Vegas Strip against the wizzards chart and the only thing that needs to be changed is 6,6 against a dealer 7 hit, not split, and 7,7 against a dealer 8, hit not split. Everything looked the same as the wizzards chart.
Read carefully what I wrote and check again.
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
If they were honest, they would make it play perfectly for at least one of the games.

It's not an honesty issue. It's more of a stupidity issue. You can be sure that the managers have been given quite a mouthful of choice words. Unfortunately, that's what happens when you try to do everything yourselves secretly without consulting some trusted people to verify certain things - this is one of Microgaming's biggest faults.

However, I trust that these bonehead mistakes will NO LONGER occur.
 

Clayman

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Location
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spearmaster said:
However, I trust that these bonehead mistakes will NO LONGER occur.

To what bonehead mistakes are you referring? - just the fact that the default strategy table for BJ is wrong? If so, why do you think it will no longer occur?

Not that I've seen MG claim anywhere that their auto-cheat will play perfectly.
In fact I have some vague recollection they tried to make it emulate the play of the "average joe" who plays less than perfectly.

Are you saying you just think the Viper programmers are good at computers but not BJ and that it's an honest mistake it plays all BJ games wrong? I would think it harder to make it play VP perfectly which, from what I read, it does.

Surely by now they could offer a version that would play perfectly. They simply choose not to is my guess. They figure the players that would play perfectly anyway will change the table because they know what they are doing and the players that don't, won't. So why allow them to play better than they normally would.
 

jpm

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
Mar 29, 2002
lanidar said:
I deposited $50 got the $200 bonus....
I was destroyed!!!
ALL GONE

My sons played here and this was the FIRST time we ever lost . :confused:
Just a bad day. :oops:

Ouch! Sorry to hear that. :(
 

GrandMaster

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Location
UK
Clayman said:
Not that I've seen MG claim anywhere that their auto-cheat will play perfectly.
In fact I have some vague recollection they tried to make it emulate the play of the "average joe" who plays less than perfectly.

Are you saying you just think the Viper programmers are good at computers but not BJ and that it's an honest mistake it plays all BJ games wrong? I would think it harder to make it play VP perfectly which, from what I read, it does.
If the software emulated the average joe, it would have to make some terribly bad plays and return something like 97-98%. :)

While MG may not have claimed the default strategy is perfect, Trevor Penn, manager of Crazy Vegas is on the record at
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claiming that "Expert Mode will automatically play the best strategy for you, allowing the very best return possible. And it empowers players with more information about the games."

There is a difference between VP and BJ autoplay. I believe that VP autoplay works by calculating the expected value of each possible choice, at least that's the only sensible way to do it. The equivalent thing for BJ would be like a card counting computer, making the optimal composition dependent decision at each step.
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
I don't think it was a programming mistake - rather, it appears they were given bad advice as to the correct strategy for each particular game.

And what I referred to when I said "NOT OCCUR" is that Microgaming will think twice before accepting the words of an "expert" without getting a second opinion.

Mind you - the errors that some of you have discovered in strategy probably (without analyzing, so I could be wrong) don't make that much of a difference - AND - there may be some reason for some expert to deviate from the commonly accepted version (like the Wiz) that we have no knowledge of.

Not that I believe the latter part, of course... LOL...
 
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