Brexit - whats the difference.....

[mack341]

You're getting so painfully close to the correct answer mack, 'there will have been no point', what opportunity do you think has been missed, what chance was there for it to have been done better that no else could see?

Short of a No Deal Brexit the abomination that Johnson delivered when he GOT BREXT DONE was about the hardest possible option available, so you can't surely be thinking that 'MORE BREXIT' was the answer?

You've got to the correct answer already, there is no point to Brexit, the problems that needed fixing in the UK could never be fixed by leaving the EU, the problems were caused by six years of ruinous and unnecessary Tory austerity (by the time the 2016 referendum was held), and those problems have only got worse since then, because not only could leaving the EU not fix them, they actually made them worse.

The only variable that's left now is how long it takes for the penny to drop that Brexit was a massive con enacted by the rich for the benefit of the rich, who managed to persuade enough of the electorate to vote against their own best interests. The penny has already dropped truth be told, there's a consistent majority amongst the UK population who think that Brexit was a mistake and should be reversed, and that majority is only going to grow over time.

Brexit is the ultimate lose/lose scenario, those who didn't want it (like me!) aren't happy, and those who did want it (like you ) also aren't happy, did anyone get a positive result out of the entire fiasco?

People who can remember back to the 80s and even 90s know there has been a decline in many areas, inevitably given a chance to make a major change to the political landscape [i.e. leave the EU] many like me seized it. Unfortunately it could just end up making a minority richer and doing not much for anyone else.

You know many well known left wingers, like Tony Benn, [who however you view him wasn't stupid] were resolutely against the EU, have you ever figured out or wondered why?

One of the biggest problems with the EU is the lack of flexibility, the dictatorial way it carries on, it rubs people up the wrong way as it makes it very clear you will have no say on this or that decision.

That's likely to get worse as they take more power over national decisions and policies.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

People who can remember back to the 80s and even 90s know there has been a decline in many areas, inevitably given a chance to make a major change to the political landscape [i.e. leave the EU] many like me seized it. Unfortunately it could just end up making a minority richer and doing not much for anyone else.

You know many well known left wingers, like Tony Benn, [who however you view him wasn't stupid] were resolutely against the EU, have you ever figured out or wondered why?

One of the biggest problems with the EU is the lack of flexibility, the dictatorial way it carries on, it rubs people up the wrong way as it makes it very clear you will have no say on this or that decision.

That's likely to get worse as they take more power over national decisions and policies.

There are many things to have reservations about when it comes to the EU (which I have acknowledged time and time again in this very thread ), Tony Benn objected to it specifically on the democracy angle, he felt the EU's power structure was too far removed from being directly accountable to UK voters, which is a perfectly valid opinion to hold but one that I personally disagree with, particularly in light of all the appallingly anti-democratic legislation we've seen added onto the UK's statute books in the last 20 years or so (so yes, I am including New Labour in that).

I also think it's a very old-fashioned view to hold, and doesn't acknowledge how inter-connected the modern world is, the idea that the UK could remove itself from the EU and forge a bold path alone on the world stage was an 'empire era' delusional mindset and so it has proved to be the case.

Whatever the EU's flaws (and they are many), we would have always been better off remaining in it as a top-tier member with real clout and influence, rather than reducing ourselves to the status of a petulant child sulking on the sideline.

You talk about the EU's inflexibility there mack, and yet they've shown tremendous flexibility and willingness to compromise on the Windsor Framework, all it needed was the UK to act like an adult and sit down with them for a serious conversation, rather than the lazy insult-hurling that Johnson and Truss indulged in, which might have made for good copy in the Daily Mail but isn't how serious politicians conduct themselves.

 

[mack341]

There are many things to have reservations about when it comes to the EU (which I have acknowledged time and time again in this very thread ), Tony Benn objected to it specifically on the democracy angle, he felt the EU's power structure was too far removed from being directly accountable to UK voters, which is a perfectly valid opinion to hold but one that I personally disagree with, particularly in light of all the appallingly anti-democratic legislation we've seen added onto the UK's statute books in the last 20 years or so (so yes, I am including New Labour in that).

I also think it's a very old-fashioned view to hold, and doesn't acknowledge how inter-connected the modern world is, the idea that the UK could remove itself from the EU and forge a bold path alone on the world stage was an 'empire era' delusional mindset and so it has proved to be the case.

Whatever the EU's flaws (and they are many), we would have always been better off remaining in it as a top-tier member with real clout and influence, rather than reducing ourselves to the status of a petulant child sulking on the sideline.

You talk about the EU's inflexibility there mack, and yet they've shown tremendous flexibility and willingness to compromise on the Windsor Framework, all it needed was the UK to act like an adult and sit down with them for a serious conversation, rather than the lazy insult-hurling that Johnson and Truss indulged in, which might have made for good copy in the Daily Mail but isn't how serious politicians conduct themselves.

Some food for thought, however I don't agree the EU have been flexible on the windsor agreement, nothing Boris couldn't have got from them the first time around if he'd been stronger.

You say the world is inter-connected which is true but the basis of national economics is still competition, the french and germans won't want to do our british firms/economy any favours if we're competing with them in an area for exports. Wealthy countries in the EU [that compete economically] resent giving too much of the proceeds in support to the less well-off members, but if they don't then the EU structure/system will gradually look like it's only benefitting certain countries.

With the greater inter-connection comes risk from inter-dependence, look what's happened to credit suisse, and when the down times come all the problems and debt is reverted back to the national govt to deal with, whereas during the good times the owners and shareholders do very well. That's not true capitalism, more crony.

The Brexit revolt against the Remain establishment has only just begun - daily telegraph​

The divide in British politics – and in the rest of the developed world – has, if anything, widened. The first camp believes in the top-down rule of experts, social engineers, lawyers, economists and philosopher-kings, empowered to construct, enforce and impose a “better”, more “rational” world; the second camp believes that power flows upwards, that we should listen to and respect the values, voices and opinions of ordinary people of all ethnicities and creeds who play by the rules, work hard, love their country and seek to improve their families’ lives.
The Tories must once again be the voice of this second group, or they are finished.

The future of the Tory party is on the radical centre-Right. To win next year, Sunak must fix immigration (and much else besides); if he fails, the next Tory leader will be chosen by the party membership and will be a Brexiteer, anti-ECHR and anti-woke. Partygate’s ludicrous shenanigans may or may not finish off Johnson’s political career, but it won’t destroy his entire legacy. The next Tory PM will have to be more of a Johnsonite than Boris ever was.

 

[justdoit]

This weekend's Brexit gift is the UK paying half a billion quid to build a detention centre for migrants in France, whilst also being told by France to fuck off when we asked them to replicate some of the Dublin Regulation framework we lost when we stropped out of the EU and lost the legal right to, erm, return migrants to France (or any other EU country).

So what was enshrined as an EU member as a right (that we absolutely did exercise), now costs us hundreds of millions of pounds and doesn't even come close to replacing what we lost.

Brexit in a nutshell.

View attachment 180638

they also paid £140m to Rwanda to exchange refuges

 

[ChopleyIOM]

John 'Thicky' Redwood being caught telling porkies on his blog, claiming he didn't support the NI Protocol when in fact, he actually voted for it in the Commons back in 2020.

Fortunately the 'rebellion' earlier in the week turned out to be nothing of the sort, with only 22 Tories voting against the government, so the Windsor Framework passed without any reliance on Labour or Lib Dem votes. It's quite amazing really, these are people who voted FOR the NI Protocol and yet now vote AGAINST Sunak's efforts to fix some of the shittiest aspects of it.

The way Brexit continues to eat its own children is nothing short of remarkable. I honestly think it'll go down as one of the biggest acts of collective madness in UK history.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Typically excellent analysis from Chris Grey here of the week's developments, (including some technical detail around what was actually voted on in the Commons this week, my previous post isn't entirely accurate in that detail), whilst they are opinion pieces in many regards, they're also grounded entirely in reality and cite endless reams of facts and evidence.

If you're genuinely curious to learn the truth about the absolute folly of Brexit, you could do a lot worse than read this blog.

Also here's the DAVIS DOWNSIDE DOSSIER, the current numbers on that are 966 downsides and..... 22 upsides, and it should be noted that some of those upsides are stuff like how well NI is doing in some regards with its unique access to the EU Single Market and the UK market, since the rest of the UK decided to blow its own feet off in that regard.

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[ChopleyIOM]

In many regards there's not much left to say about Brexit, it's clearly failed by any metrics, you only need to look at the circular firing squads its proponents have formed for ample evidence of that. Dover melted down again last weekend, yes there were various factors in play but having to check and stamp everyone's passports instead of coaches full of people just vaguely waving their passports at the French officials didn't help either - even the government had to row back from their nonsensical line that it was 'Nothing to do with Brexit' when they were laughed out of the building.

What is interesting though is the increasing majority of people in the UK who think Brexit was a mistake, and particularly how the number of 'Don't Knows' is consistently falling and aligning with the 'It was a mistake' camp. This does indicate that people are appraising the situation and using the evidence of their own eyes and experiences to inform their judgement, for example I think it's probably safe to say that anyone who endured Dover last weekend has some opinions about the subject now.

Also in play is the fact that, not to put too fine a point on it, the referendum was back in 2016, and many older people who voted for Brexit (because it was the old who secured the 'victory' of the UK leaving the EU) are now, quite frankly - dead, and they are not being replaced by people who are of the same opinion as them.

I fully expect these numbers to ultimately end up somewhere around 70/30, there are always going to be some diehards who will stick their fingers in their ears, close their eyes, and absolutely insist Brexit was the right thing to do for <INSERT NONSENSE JUSTIFICATIONS HERE>, but this majority will never, ever swing back the other way now - and IMO that puts us on the clock for the UK rejoining the EU, albeit I don't expect it to happen for quite a while yet.

Still, even the biggest of messes can get cleaned up eventually.

 

[Daavid63]

In many regards there's not much left to say about Brexit, it's clearly failed by any metrics, you only need to look at the circular firing squads its proponents have formed for ample evidence of that. Dover melted down again last weekend, yes there were various factors in play but having to check and stamp everyone's passports instead of coaches full of people just vaguely waving their passports at the French officials didn't help either - even the government had to row back from their nonsensical line that it was 'Nothing to do with Brexit' when they were laughed out of the building.

What is interesting though is the increasing majority of people in the UK who think Brexit was a mistake, and particularly how the number of 'Don't Knows' is consistently falling and aligning with the 'It was a mistake' camp. This does indicate that people are appraising the situation and using the evidence of their own eyes and experiences to inform their judgement, for example I think it's probably safe to say that anyone who endured Dover last weekend has some opinions about the subject now.

Also in play is the fact that, not to put too fine a point on it, the referendum was back in 2016, and many older people who voted for Brexit (because it was the old who secured the 'victory' of the UK leaving the EU) are now, quite frankly - dead, and they are not being replaced by people who are of the same opinion as them.

I fully expect these numbers to ultimately end up somewhere around 70/30, there are always going to be some diehards who will stick their fingers in their ears, close their eyes, and absolutely insist Brexit was the right thing to do for <INSERT NONSENSE JUSTIFICATIONS HERE>, but this majority will never, ever swing back the other way now - and IMO that puts us on the clock for the UK rejoining the EU, albeit I don't expect it to happen for quite a while yet.

Still, even the biggest of messes can get cleaned up eventually.

 

[pinnit2014]

*also compatible with Indy Ref supporters

 

[mack341]

France is the core of the EU - along with germany - so it could be argued membership is not contributing much of a feel good factor to their citizenry atm.

The dutch farmers' party have recently won lots of seats in the Netherlands:

Commentator Ben Coates described the result as "something of an earthquake in Dutch politics".

Although their policies are very much focused on opposing the government's environmental policies, he told the BBC most people would characterise them as a right-wing, populist party that was quite anti-EU, anti-immigration and in favour of banning burkas for Muslims.

 

[dunover]

France is the core of the EU - along with germany - so it could be argued membership is not contributing much of a feel good factor to their citizenry atm.

The dutch farmers' party have recently won lots of seats in the Netherlands:

Commentator Ben Coates described the result as "something of an earthquake in Dutch politics".

Although their policies are very much focused on opposing the government's environmental policies, he told the BBC most people would characterise them as a right-wing, populist party that was quite anti-EU, anti-immigration and in favour of banning burkas for Muslims.

The filth and corruption continues, remind yourselves why we told the bent corrupt EU to f-off.....

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[ChopleyIOM]

The filth and corruption continues, remind yourselves why we told the bent corrupt EU to f-off.....

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'In any large organisation there will be some rotters', shocker!

Any updates on the Pope's praying habits or where bears like to have a shit?

Where corruption exists it should be rooted out, exposed, and punished appropriately, which appears to be what is happening here. This applies as much to EU politics as it does UK politics.

Still, at least we don't have any of that sort of thing in the UK now we've left the nasty old EU. British corruption for the British!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Farage coming dangerously close to actually understanding something here. (i.e. You can't fight for something that is plainly broken at a fundamental level, hence there are so few people left defending it, it's like trying to make a car with square wheels work properly when the round wheels are literally just right over there.)

The thing with Brexit is it feels very much like dancing on the grave of the dead at this point, as it has so clearly and patently failed on every single level (Farage himself said the three words 'Brexit has failed' a couple of weeks ago).

I'm curious about a couple of things, is there anyone left who will still try to defend Brexit, perhaps it was the right idea but not done properly? (Which was always the right wing cat call about Socialism never working.) But more importantly, as public opinion in the UK shifts further and further towards the position that Brexit was a mistake, how do we fix it?

Would anyone really cry too many years if the UK rejoined the Single Market and Customs Union at this point, even with the EU rule following it entails? Our economy is bleeding out relative to our competitors, the USA and the EU are currently gearing up for a massive programme of subsidies to get EVs and other new green tech developed into major industries, and we're just a bit-player in the sidelines with no influence and no clout.

Both the EU and the USA recognise China as the real elephant in the room here, and they've got the muscle to make massive changes and bring back production to their own lands, the UK just doesn't have that, and outside the EU with all the trade barriers Brexit threw up, we can't really make ourselves attractive to foreign investment either, and our own economy is so fucked we can't pay for it.

We made ourselves a medium sized player in a world full of giants, when we could have been a top tier member of the club of giants.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Turns out Brexit was all about taking on the woke banks and Carol Vorderman.

This is the pivot I'm increasingly seeing now, since even your average mole has keen enough eyesight to work out Brexit has crashed and burned in apocalyptic fashion, it now has to have been about something completely different all along.

 

[bamberfishcake]

For someone who seems to be quite knowledgeable and a learned man, I find it hard to believe you still subscribe to the divisive design of UK politics Choppers.

Tories or Labour? It's all designed to keep us divided and occupied with the propaganda. We should be voting for the Reclaim Party, it seems they are the only ones concerned with reality rather than fantasy.

 

[DaftDog]

I've never really understood why some people treat their chosen political party leaders like movie stars. Seems a bit cultish.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Brainwashed.

 

[dunover]

Brexit?

Oh yeah, that thing that happened years ago, had forgotten all about it.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Brexit?

Oh yeah, that thing that happened years ago, had forgotten all about it.

'Happened' as in, 'we haven't even managed to put up a proper border yet'. (The EU did, which is why British business has been struggling with exports ever since we came out of transition, but we have, as of August 2023, failed to 'take back control' of our own fricking border.)

------------------

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UK ministers are set to confirm a fifth delay to the implementation of post-Brexit border controls on food and fresh products coming from the EU, pushing the launch of the new regime into next year.

Jeremy Hunt, the chancellor, backed the delay owing to fears that the new red tape will push up food prices during an inflationary crisis, while traders have also asked for more time to get ready for the new system.

The new regime for animal and plant products was originally meant to start in 2021, but the latest delay will mean that new paperwork will not be required until January and checks on imports will not start at ports until April 2024.The Cabinet Office said an announcement of the new regime and timetable would be made “shortly”; officials said it would come as early as Thursday — or by next week at the latest.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Turned out well then.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Old Frosty slightly letting the cat out of the bag here, calling the Windsor Framework a load of wank because it's too similar to the deal he himself negotiated, but the fact his deal was shit doesn't matter because the plan was never to honour it anyway.

This man was actually in charge of things.

I don't think I've ever seen so much damage caused in the political realm by such a load of clearly incompetent chancers, liars, and charlatans.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Brexit?

Oh yeah, that thing that happened years ago, had forgotten all about it.

'Thing that happened years ago' update, new raft of costs and hurdles to UK businesses from today as UK government finally starts to implement post-Brexit border controls after putting them off five times.

The lovely Ms Ridge also notes that the UK's population is due to surge to new all time highs in the next few years, fuelled mostly by immigration from non-EU countries.

'If Brexit were a videogame, I don't think we'd even be at the boss level yet'.

 

[dunover]

'Thing that happened years ago' update, new raft of costs and hurdles to UK businesses from today as UK government finally starts to implement post-Brexit border controls after putting them off five times.

The lovely Ms Ridge also notes that the UK's population is due to surge to new all time highs in the next few years, fuelled mostly by immigration from non-EU countries.

'If Brexit were a videogame, I don't think we'd even be at the boss level yet'.

Fuelled by a weak, spineless, inept traitorous government and opposition.

When a population is run by cowards, they will end up being bullied.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Fuelled by a weak, spineless, inept traitorous government and opposition.

When a population is run by cowards, they will end up being bullied.

So here we are in the aftermath of Brexit, which has signally failed to deliver every single thing that the liars who peddled it said it would.

But rather than accept that maybe Brexit itself is the problem, instead it was done wrong, or it was betrayed by traitors, or cowards wouldn't see it through properly.

Here's Sammy Wilson of the DUP, a party which wins the lifetime award for exceptional achievement in the realms of blowing your own feet off, explicitly stating they did nothing wrong and instead have been done over by a bunch of frauds.

Experts in NI politics - (the experts Mr Gove said we were all so bored of) - saw this coming a mile off, and shouted loud and clear that NI would end up getting fucked by Brexit, and yet the DUP helped cheerlead (and vote for it) all the way through.

But nope, not my fault guv'nor......



I mean, it's not like they weren't warned about this, including by two former UK Prime Ministers who were intimately involved in the NI peace process.

 

[dunover]

A Hamas sympathiser (unelected) or her:

Apart from not being invaded by terrorists, scroungers, rapists, paedophiles & criminals, poor Scots are even worse off than us.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The Torygraph has a novel explanation for why Brexit has failed, and it turns out it's your fault - yes you! For being scared of freedom, apparently.

It'll be interesting to see what the next UK government does on Brexit, because there's a MASSIVE 5% uplift to UK GDP sat right there on the table (basically getting back the billions upon billions that Brexit has cost us). We could get most of it back by rejoining the Single Market and Customs Union (so technically not back in the EU).

Assuming Labour do win, they'll have five years to show some results, and that sort of boost to the economy would stand them in very good stead.

 

[mack341]

Chop, Thames water is about to go bankrupt, the Royal mail is heading that way. Labour are about to win a huge majority [if polls are to be believed] why would you want to straitjacket yourself and give away a govt's freedom to act in whatever way it chooses is best, when the state might have to take over some big utilities/services, or could have an option to.



"It has to be pointed out, however, that a Member State nationalising a private undertaking has to act like a private market economy operator as regards both the purchase price and the management of the nationalised undertaking. Otherwise, State aid rules (Articles 107 and 108 TFEU) would apply."

--------------

Independent 2019 re nationalisation of rail in the single market

"So EU rules do not prevent you having a public railway company, or from subsidising it to whatever absurd degree you fancy. But it's important to be clear what restrictions the EU does place on member states' railways: or to be precise, what restrictions it will place on them."

This is because the situation in the EU is changing: in 2016 the bloc approved a package of legislation called the Fourth Rail Package, which will come into force from 2023. This includes a series of new rules whose intention is to bring the private sector and market competition into the railways. Looking at the situation in member states now might not be a very good guide to what they will look like in a few years' time.

Under the Fourth Rail Package, subsidised routes will have to be put out to open tender, and private companies be allowed to bid for them in a commercial process. The existing state incumbents will also be able to bid – and in many cases they will win; in others, they will not.

A UK government committed to public ownership for the whole railway could perhaps try and ignore the regulations, facing down Brussels – though as our experience with Brexit shows, we're not very good at that. Going rogue would also leave the government open to being taken to the European Court of Justice by private companies angry that they are missing out on lucrative contracts; it could also face infringement action from the Commission. Alternatively, the UK could work to try and change the EU’s rules – though it would be swimming against a very powerful tide."

 

[TheAddict]

Sherelle (whoever the fuck knows, or cares) just went blunt. Holy shit guys.

 

[pinnit2014]

Hopefully we don't see Rees Mogg and his nanny at the next election

Though i did hear he called Maggie Thatcher 'Mummy' ?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Chop, Thames water is about to go bankrupt, the Royal mail is heading that way. Labour are about to win a huge majority [if polls are to be believed] why would you want to straitjacket yourself and give away a govt's freedom to act in whatever way it chooses is best, when the state might have to take over some big utilities/services, or could have an option to.



"It has to be pointed out, however, that a Member State nationalising a private undertaking has to act like a private market economy operator as regards both the purchase price and the management of the nationalised undertaking. Otherwise, State aid rules (Articles 107 and 108 TFEU) would apply."

--------------

Independent 2019 re nationalisation of rail in the single market

"So EU rules do not prevent you having a public railway company, or from subsidising it to whatever absurd degree you fancy. But it's important to be clear what restrictions the EU does place on member states' railways: or to be precise, what restrictions it will place on them."

This is because the situation in the EU is changing: in 2016 the bloc approved a package of legislation called the Fourth Rail Package, which will come into force from 2023. This includes a series of new rules whose intention is to bring the private sector and market competition into the railways. Looking at the situation in member states now might not be a very good guide to what they will look like in a few years' time.

Under the Fourth Rail Package, subsidised routes will have to be put out to open tender, and private companies be allowed to bid for them in a commercial process. The existing state incumbents will also be able to bid – and in many cases they will win; in others, they will not.

A UK government committed to public ownership for the whole railway could perhaps try and ignore the regulations, facing down Brussels – though as our experience with Brexit shows, we're not very good at that. Going rogue would also leave the government open to being taken to the European Court of Justice by private companies angry that they are missing out on lucrative contracts; it could also face infringement action from the Commission. Alternatively, the UK could work to try and change the EU’s rules – though it would be swimming against a very powerful tide."

The honest answer is mack I don't really know enough about this area to fully comment, although I'm not even advocating for rejoining the EU (that's a 10-15 year project IMO), the immediate concern is trying to fix some of the awful economic damage of Brexit, which means Customs Union and Single Market, and alignment to EU standards where possible, to help get British businesses back in the game.

My suspicion would be however, that as with all things EU related, fudges and deals and compromises would be available, especially where we're talking about privatised industries failing completely and needing massive bail outs with public money. Large chunks of the UK railways are already back in government hands. In the case of Thames Water, it had all its debt wiped out by Thatcher prior to privatisation (as did all the water companies), and yet has managed to end up essentially bankrupt, whilst pumping millions of gallons of shit into our rivers and seas, and having creamed off billions in shareholder dividends, whilst leaving customers with some of the highest bills in Europe. Oh yes and it's got one of the leakiest networks in Europe too.

The success of private enterprise! Still, at least the shareholders made out like bandits, and fuck everyone else.

 

[dunover]

The **__** Large chunks of the UK railways are already back in government hands. In the case of Thames Water, it had all its debt wiped out by Thatcher prior to privatisation (as did all the water companies), and yet has managed to end up essentially bankrupt, whilst pumping millions of gallons of shit into our rivers and seas, and having creamed off billions in shareholder dividends, whilst leaving customers with some of the highest bills in Europe. Oh yes and it's got one of the leakiest networks in Europe too.

The success of private enterprise! Still, at least the shareholders made out like bandits, and fuck everyone else.

I heard the monster (I had my famous TFTUT incident with back in Dec 2016 after too much codeine) is still banging into pleasure craft on the river Severn.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Stuff like this is happening all the time and often goes little reported or even noticed, although the effect is choice being reduced in shops, and prices creeping up and up, as these costs are absorbed into the supply chain and ultimately passed on to consumers.

It does however give lie to the claim that Brexit is 'done' - the damage rolls on, and on, and on.

It's stuff like this that has mortally wounded the UK economy, Labour will really need to grasp this nettle, assuming they get into power, because until the endless slow puncture of Brexit is fixed, the UK's economy is holed below the waterline.

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[mack341]

I thought we agreed a 'free' trade deal, apparently this charge has been delayed 5 times to allow firms to adjust to brexit, which begs the question have the EU already implemented a similar charge their end?

 

[pinnit2014]

Stuff like this is happening all the time and often goes little reported or even noticed, although the effect is choice being reduced in shops, and prices creeping up and up, as these costs are absorbed into the supply chain and ultimately passed on to consumers.

It does however give lie to the claim that Brexit is 'done' - the damage rolls on, and on, and on.

It's stuff like this that has mortally wounded the UK economy, Labour will really need to grasp this nettle, assuming they get into power, because until the endless slow puncture of Brexit is fixed, the UK's economy is holed below the waterline.

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View attachment 195383
View attachment 195384

I know and work with companies who talk of the negative effective Brexit has had in terms of their bottom line and logistics etc. Not from a political POV, just hard numbers. But it seems to have disappeared from all political parties thoughts - i find it amusing that people who have no skin in the game regarding effects, easily dismiss it - personally, it's been weird having a country vote to impose economic sanctions on themselves but hey, it's done, so got to roll what you've been given.

Rishi claiming he'd go one step further today/yesterday and leave the ECHR cos of the (massive waste of money, it's nearly criminal) Rwanda Act/Bill, is amusing though - you'd need to give 6 months notice and the ramification of it would ripple through everything so good posturing there but no cigar.

People claiming the horrors of a Labour Govt i don't think grasp the fact Starmer is almost centre right and lets be honest, i don't think they could do worse than this current mob.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I thought we agreed a 'free' trade deal, apparently this charge has been delayed 5 times to allow firms to adjust to brexit, which begs the question have the EU already implemented a similar charge their end?

I know this won't come as a big surprise mack, but Boris Johnson was and is a massive liar, so when he said we had a 'free trade deal' with the EU what he meant was we'd agreed not to impose any tariffs on each other, apart from that we're basically a third country outside the EU, which is what we were insisting we wanted to be treated as all along - you remember it all I'm sure, buccaneering on the world stage, glory days of empire and all that shite.

The EU had all the checks and charges on their side ready to go from day one once the UK left transition, but because we were (and are) a shambolic mess of a country after fourteen years of Tory misrule, we're only getting round to it now. Brexit is the world's worst gift, and it just keeps on giving pain and damage.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I know and work with companies who talk of the negative effective Brexit has had in terms of their bottom line and logistics etc. Not from a political POV, just hard numbers. But it seems to have disappeared from all political parties thoughts - i find it amusing that people who have no skin in the game regarding effects, easily dismiss it - personally, it's been weird having a country vote to impose economic sanctions on themselves but hey, it's done, so got to roll what you've been given.

Rishi claiming he'd go one step further today/yesterday and leave the ECHR cos of the (massive waste of money, it's nearly criminal) Rwanda Act/Bill, is amusing though - you'd need to give 6 months notice and the ramification of it would ripple through everything so good posturing there but no cigar.

People claiming the horrors of a Labour Govt i don't think grasp the fact Starmer is almost centre right and lets be honest, i don't think they could do worse than this current mob.

Sounds a bit like Project Fear to me pinnit, you're not one of these 'experts' are you? Because Michael Gove wants a word if so.

The ECHR posturing over Rwanda is nonsensical, I'd like to see how like they'll pitch the campaign for that - 'TAKE BACK CONTROL, THIS TIME WE DEFINITELY MEAN IT'.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Those who voted Remain haven't really changed their voting intentions, which essentially points to the fact that Brexit has panned out how they were expecting it to (an unmitigated disaster), which is why they voted against it in the first place.

Among Leave voters however, you can see how Tory support has absolutely cratered, benefiting both Labour and Reform. Here in the year 2024, the truth is plain for all to see, Brexit has failed, continues to fail, and will do so into the future until it starts to get rolled back.

Unfortunately, in the interim, the UK remains mortally wounded and our economy continues to bleed out.

The thing I find most upsetting about all of this, is plenty of people knew exactly what was going to happen and explicitly warned about the dangers of leaving the EU, what was once Project Fear, is now Project Reality - Leave voters can see it too.

 

[TheAddict]

Support for the tories has dropped? You've gotta be at least semi retarded to give support to any of the latest blackmailed clowns pretending to represent the peoples interests, tbf. No offense to most people, and fuck the EU

 

[pinnit2014]

Sounds a bit like Project Fear to me pinnit, you're not one of these 'experts' are you? Because Michael Gove wants a word if so.

The ECHR posturing over Rwanda is nonsensical, I'd like to see how like they'll pitch the campaign for that - 'TAKE BACK CONTROL, THIS TIME WE DEFINITELY MEAN IT'.

It's like the mulit-millionaire Non-Dom folk, just aren't really happy even though they've got all they wanted

I do laugh when folk say Farage/Dice/Mogg are anti establishment: they are the epitome of it/are it

It's the false equivalence model of debate that has developed - you get a expert v a gossip columnist and you give as much credence to the latter - it's mental.

 

[mack341]

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[geordiecolin]

Macron demanded that no party could be tolerated in control of France because they are anti semitic. With him refusing to put party members in a government and the response by the controlling party there is a staillmate.
How will the French people respond to that given that Macron is clearly hated and acting like a dictator?

And the owner of Telegram- which I never visit- was arrested for the fact that his platform has too many pictures, groups and chat about child sexual abuse by the French. But that is not true. There are 8 platforms that are more depraved than them. Instergram and facebook are miles ahead of them. I damn them all.
The owners of tick tock where forced to sell to American interests because they knew that the platform had power of influence.
I would hope that Musk never flies into Europe because they would soon have his balls tied to the grid.
How does that tie in with EU reason?

 

[mack341]

Don't know if it's worth a post, but apparently in upcoming germany elections a new populist but left wing party is set to do well.

BBC:

"Meanwhile another insurgent party – the Sahra Wagenknecht Alliance (BSW) – has catapulted itself in the polls up to third place in this state.

Ms Wagenknecht, a former communist and long one of the most prominent politicians in eastern Germany, has had success in blending cultural conservatism with economically left-wing policies."

They're are opposed to mass immigration and they're not keen on the EU, believing it to be undemocratic and captured by oligarchy.

Between them and the afd, the political centrist boat (blair world in essence) could be about to get rocked.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

All things come full circle in the end I suppose. And so it is that in year 2024, Daniel 'Wrong' Hannan proclaims that Britain just needs to believe more and the UK will get what it wants out of the EU.

This is word-for-word the shite he and his ilk were shitting out the better part of a decade ago in the run up to the original referendum, and we all know how that worked out.

At least the grown-ups are back in charge now.

 

[mack341]

Hannan is a bit of a busted flush, everything is wrong but the conservatives are also great.

Though I think he's right here, somehow we continue to be in a strong position compared to europe but more specifically the EU, which grows in unpopularity.

Places like Germany have spent the last decade making all the mistakes we made earlier, embracing mass immigration while at the same time cutting industrial jobs to move production to cheaper labour countries.

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We still have a lot of commonwealth ties, which helps exports and also the city of London, because those countries will put money into our stock markets and investment banks.

Starmer and Co were meant to be the grownups but badly failing so far, even the bbc have just posted an article talking about the feeling of doom and gloom Starmer's govt seems keen to present.

 

[mack341]

Not sure how you do twitter links anymore, general gist in case the link thingy doesn't work:

In 1990 the EU of 12 states made up 26.5% of world GDP. Today its 27 states make up just 16.1%.

^Any thoughts on this record of decline, Chop?



Edit: The link worked like a dream, back in the game.

 

[geordiecolin]

Not sure how you do twitter links anymore, general gist in case the link thingy doesn't work:

In 1990 the EU of 12 states made up 26.5% of world GDP. Today its 27 states make up just 16.1%.

^Any thoughts on this record of decline, Chop?



Edit: The link worked like a dream, back in the game.

We could start with the utter waste on infrastructure, expensive buildings, expensive travel, huge wages and expenses , big wages for family- I mean staff, and security costs. Does funding for the likes of WHO, WEF, NATO ,Immigration, gain of function and labs and Christmas presents for each other account for anything?

 

[dunover]

Not sure how you do twitter links anymore, general gist in case the link thingy doesn't work:

In 1990 the EU of 12 states made up 26.5% of world GDP. Today its 27 states make up just 16.1%.

^Any thoughts on this record of decline, Chop?



Edit: The link worked like a dream, back in the game.

I haven't read the article but I'd suggest the emergent economies in the intervening time like China, India and Brazil etc. would be the likely and obvious explanation. I'd say the EU in that time has risen in GDP significantly, but the world GDP cake is considerably bigger so their overall percentage has fallen. So I'm not sure that figure has a whole lot of significance. Although to be fair, Germany is up against the wall right now, seems they are beginning the painful process the UK has ostensibly been through already, the transition to a post-industrial economic model.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Not sure how you do twitter links anymore, general gist in case the link thingy doesn't work:

In 1990 the EU of 12 states made up 26.5% of world GDP. Today its 27 states make up just 16.1%.

^Any thoughts on this record of decline, Chop?



Edit: The link worked like a dream, back in the game.

I haven't read the article but I'd suggest the emergent economies in the intervening time like China, India and Brazil etc. would be the likely and obvious explanation. I'd say the EU in that time has risen in GDP significantly, but the world GDP cake is considerably bigger so their overall percentage has fallen. So I'm not sure that figure has a whole lot of significance. Although to be fair, Germany is up against the wall right now, seems they are beginning the painful process the UK has ostensibly been through already, the transition to a post-industrial economic model.

For my money this is all going to come to a head in the not too distant future.

From an EU perspective we are starting to see the failure of centrism. Raising everyone up 'a bit', when those at the top are carving out an ever greater percentage of the pie actually makes those who aren't at the top poorer, because relatively speaking they have less.

If 99 people get £1000 per year more they might feel £1000 better off, but then notice they still don't have fuck all and are basically priced out of everything, especially housing, despite being 'wealthier'. Because if the remaining 1 out of that 100 has £1,000,000 more then that's why. The 99's collective wealth has increased by £99K, but the one at the top has a million more and he's going to fuck everyone else over with it.

What we're seeing in Germany now, which dunover refers to above, and especially with VW, will be very instructive and a sign of more to come.

From a UK perspective, and TBH I see it as all part of the same thing now, if Labour's first budget next month just tinkers around the edges, and/or hits anyone except those at the top in terms of more taxes and cuts, then they've fucked it IMO.

I just had one of my oldest friends staying with me for a long weekend (the guy out of Gambling Low Ebbs Part #1 whose student house I trashed). He came from the same poor background as me, but he's really made it, to such an extent that he retired when he was 48 years old, and will live comfortably for the rest of his life off what he earned/invested/pensioned during his working life of just 27 years.

We were talking politics over a few beers, putting the world to rights as you do, and pondering the fact that his path to success just doesn't exist now.

The excellent state provided education, from infant school through to college, that he had access to, smashed to pieces.

The free university education that he had access to, where he excelled. Gone. He wouldn't have even dared to go in the first place if he'd been staring down anything like the sort of debt young people now are facing.

The stable home environment he had, despite being a single parent home with two children in it. Still viable with a single wage, and enough to even (just about) pay the the mortgage on a small terraced house.

High quality healthcare, ready access to a GP, ready access to a dentist, always available throughout his younger years. All provided by the state, which is good, because neither his family or him could have remotely afforded to do any of it privately.

He was one of the last through the door at his company that had access to a final salary pension scheme, within three years of him starting there, they'd closed it to new applicants. With a combination of earning well, and canny investments, he's managed to time it so that he'll be OK until his final salary pension kicks in. (He keeps in touch with colleagues who weren't able to retire when he did, they report a very difficult working environment, with wages being squeezed and benefits slashed, whilst the executive class there make out like bandits and the company's headline profits keep growing.)

You get the idea, other things too, but they're the main points. I said to him 'The path you walked down, the doors you went through, they're gone now, no one else from the wrong side of the tracks in Radcliffe, with fuck all money to their name and a poor family, gets to do that ever again' - and he was just like, 'Yeah, I know, it's shit'.

This isn't just a UK or an EU problem, it's the USA, Australia, and all other well developed first world economies, the post war consensus that sought to give everyone the solid foundations to live a good life, and the opportunity to succeed if they were willing to put in the effort, are being stripped away.

Wealth inequality is what's going to fuck us all, as the planet boils away and the ultra-rich and their corporations seek to grow and grow to infinity, because endless growth, making the line go up and 'enhancing shareholder value' is the only game in town - and fuck everyone else.

You can't get infinite growth out of a finite resource. We only have one planet. The last man standing will be the richest, nastiest, most mercenary cunt ever to curse the human race, as he surveys his ultimate kingdom, a dying, pestilent planet, inhabited by the desperate, scrabbling poor, tearing each other's eyes out just to make it to the next day.

 

[geordiecolin]

For my money this is all going to come to a head in the not too distant future.

From an EU perspective we are starting to see the failure of centrism. Raising everyone up 'a bit', when those at the top are carving out an ever greater percentage of the pie actually makes those who aren't at the top poorer, because relatively speaking they have less.

If 99 people get £1000 per year more they might feel £1000 better off, but then notice they still don't have fuck all and are basically priced out of everything, especially housing, despite being 'wealthier'. Because if the remaining 1 out of that 100 has £1,000,000 more then that's why. The 99's collective wealth has increased by £99K, but the one at the top has a million more and he's going to fuck everyone else over with it.

What we're seeing in Germany now, which dunover refers to above, and especially with VW, will be very instructive and a sign of more to come.

From a UK perspective, and TBH I see it as all part of the same thing now, if Labour's first budget next month just tinkers around the edges, and/or hits anyone except those at the top in terms of more taxes and cuts, then they've fucked it IMO.

I just had one of my oldest friends staying with me for a long weekend (the guy out of Gambling Low Ebbs Part #1 whose student house I trashed). He came from the same poor background as me, but he's really made it, to such an extent that he retired when he was 48 years old, and will live comfortably for the rest of his life off what he earned/invested/pensioned during his working life of just 27 years.

We were talking politics over a few beers, putting the world to rights as you do, and pondering the fact that his path to success just doesn't exist now.

The excellent state provided education, from infant school through to college, that he had access to, smashed to pieces.

The free university education that he had access to, where he excelled. Gone. He wouldn't have even dared to go in the first place if he'd been staring down anything like the sort of debt young people now are facing.

The stable home environment he had, despite being a single parent home with two children in it. Still viable with a single wage, and enough to even (just about) pay the the mortgage on a small terraced house.

High quality healthcare, ready access to a GP, ready access to a dentist, always available throughout his younger years. All provided by the state, which is good, because neither his family or him could have remotely afforded to do any of it privately.

He was one of the last through the door at his company that had access to a final salary pension scheme, within three years of him starting there, they'd closed it to new applicants. With a combination of earning well, and canny investments, he's managed to time it so that he'll be OK until his final salary pension kicks in. (He keeps in touch with colleagues who weren't able to retire when he did, they report a very difficult working environment, with wages being squeezed and benefits slashed, whilst the executive class there make out like bandits and the company's headline profits keep growing.)

You get the idea, other things too, but they're the main points. I said to him 'The path you walked down, the doors you went through, they're gone now, no one else from the wrong side of the tracks in Radcliffe, with fuck all money to their name and a poor family, gets to do that ever again' - and he was just like, 'Yeah, I know, it's shit'.

This isn't just a UK or an EU problem, it's the UK, Australia, and all other well developed first world economies, the post war consensus that sought to give everyone the solid foundations to live a good life, and the opportunity to succeed if they were willing to put in the effort, are being stripped away.

Wealth inequality is what's going to fuck us all, as the planet boils away and the ultra-rich and their corporations seek to grow and grow to infinity, because endless growth, making the line go up and 'enhancing shareholder value' is the only game in town - and fuck everyone else.

You can't get infinite growth out of a finite resource. We only have one planet. The last man standing will be the richest, nastiest, most mercenary cunt ever to curse the human race, as he surveys his ultimate kingdom, a dying, pestilent planet, inhabited by the desperate, scrabbling poor, tearing each other's eyes out just to make it to the next day.

That is the globalist agenda that Starma is fully committed too and what we will see most of Europe and America rail against in the coming years. And the bought and paid for media will call far right extremists.
Has your political position shifted?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

That is the globalist agenda that Starma is fully committed too and what we will see most of Europe and America rail against in the coming years. And the bought and paid for media will call far right extremists.
Has your political position shifted?

I'll wait and see what Labour's first budget is. The grab on the pensioner winter fuel allowance doesn't bode well but the argument is there it's means tested and removes it from those who don't need it. Why they chose to start with that though I have no idea.

If Labour come out swinging next month, like, seriously, to start to try and properly tax wealth in the UK and put that money into public services for the majority, and some basic redistributive measures, then that would give me some hope on the direction of travel. (Capital Gains Tax is an obvious one, why should money accrued via doing basically nothing attract a lower tax rate than that accrued by actually going out to work?)

Rishi Sunak's net worth is six hundred and fifty million pounds, and on most of his income he was paying 22% tax as he was taking it as Capital Gains.

So I'll wait for the first budget at least, and appraise from there.