Brexit - whats the difference.....

[mack341]

You're getting so painfully close to the correct answer mack, 'there will have been no point', what opportunity do you think has been missed, what chance was there for it to have been done better that no else could see?

Short of a No Deal Brexit the abomination that Johnson delivered when he GOT BREXT DONE was about the hardest possible option available, so you can't surely be thinking that 'MORE BREXIT' was the answer?

You've got to the correct answer already, there is no point to Brexit, the problems that needed fixing in the UK could never be fixed by leaving the EU, the problems were caused by six years of ruinous and unnecessary Tory austerity (by the time the 2016 referendum was held), and those problems have only got worse since then, because not only could leaving the EU not fix them, they actually made them worse.

The only variable that's left now is how long it takes for the penny to drop that Brexit was a massive con enacted by the rich for the benefit of the rich, who managed to persuade enough of the electorate to vote against their own best interests. The penny has already dropped truth be told, there's a consistent majority amongst the UK population who think that Brexit was a mistake and should be reversed, and that majority is only going to grow over time.

Brexit is the ultimate lose/lose scenario, those who didn't want it (like me!) aren't happy, and those who did want it (like you ) also aren't happy, did anyone get a positive result out of the entire fiasco?

People who can remember back to the 80s and even 90s know there has been a decline in many areas, inevitably given a chance to make a major change to the political landscape [i.e. leave the EU] many like me seized it. Unfortunately it could just end up making a minority richer and doing not much for anyone else.

You know many well known left wingers, like Tony Benn, [who however you view him wasn't stupid] were resolutely against the EU, have you ever figured out or wondered why?

One of the biggest problems with the EU is the lack of flexibility, the dictatorial way it carries on, it rubs people up the wrong way as it makes it very clear you will have no say on this or that decision.

That's likely to get worse as they take more power over national decisions and policies.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

People who can remember back to the 80s and even 90s know there has been a decline in many areas, inevitably given a chance to make a major change to the political landscape [i.e. leave the EU] many like me seized it. Unfortunately it could just end up making a minority richer and doing not much for anyone else.

You know many well known left wingers, like Tony Benn, [who however you view him wasn't stupid] were resolutely against the EU, have you ever figured out or wondered why?

One of the biggest problems with the EU is the lack of flexibility, the dictatorial way it carries on, it rubs people up the wrong way as it makes it very clear you will have no say on this or that decision.

That's likely to get worse as they take more power over national decisions and policies.

There are many things to have reservations about when it comes to the EU (which I have acknowledged time and time again in this very thread ), Tony Benn objected to it specifically on the democracy angle, he felt the EU's power structure was too far removed from being directly accountable to UK voters, which is a perfectly valid opinion to hold but one that I personally disagree with, particularly in light of all the appallingly anti-democratic legislation we've seen added onto the UK's statute books in the last 20 years or so (so yes, I am including New Labour in that).

I also think it's a very old-fashioned view to hold, and doesn't acknowledge how inter-connected the modern world is, the idea that the UK could remove itself from the EU and forge a bold path alone on the world stage was an 'empire era' delusional mindset and so it has proved to be the case.

Whatever the EU's flaws (and they are many), we would have always been better off remaining in it as a top-tier member with real clout and influence, rather than reducing ourselves to the status of a petulant child sulking on the sideline.

You talk about the EU's inflexibility there mack, and yet they've shown tremendous flexibility and willingness to compromise on the Windsor Framework, all it needed was the UK to act like an adult and sit down with them for a serious conversation, rather than the lazy insult-hurling that Johnson and Truss indulged in, which might have made for good copy in the Daily Mail but isn't how serious politicians conduct themselves.

 

[mack341]

There are many things to have reservations about when it comes to the EU (which I have acknowledged time and time again in this very thread ), Tony Benn objected to it specifically on the democracy angle, he felt the EU's power structure was too far removed from being directly accountable to UK voters, which is a perfectly valid opinion to hold but one that I personally disagree with, particularly in light of all the appallingly anti-democratic legislation we've seen added onto the UK's statute books in the last 20 years or so (so yes, I am including New Labour in that).

I also think it's a very old-fashioned view to hold, and doesn't acknowledge how inter-connected the modern world is, the idea that the UK could remove itself from the EU and forge a bold path alone on the world stage was an 'empire era' delusional mindset and so it has proved to be the case.

Whatever the EU's flaws (and they are many), we would have always been better off remaining in it as a top-tier member with real clout and influence, rather than reducing ourselves to the status of a petulant child sulking on the sideline.

You talk about the EU's inflexibility there mack, and yet they've shown tremendous flexibility and willingness to compromise on the Windsor Framework, all it needed was the UK to act like an adult and sit down with them for a serious conversation, rather than the lazy insult-hurling that Johnson and Truss indulged in, which might have made for good copy in the Daily Mail but isn't how serious politicians conduct themselves.

Some food for thought, however I don't agree the EU have been flexible on the windsor agreement, nothing Boris couldn't have got from them the first time around if he'd been stronger.

You say the world is inter-connected which is true but the basis of national economics is still competition, the french and germans won't want to do our british firms/economy any favours if we're competing with them in an area for exports. Wealthy countries in the EU [that compete economically] resent giving too much of the proceeds in support to the less well-off members, but if they don't then the EU structure/system will gradually look like it's only benefitting certain countries.

With the greater inter-connection comes risk from inter-dependence, look what's happened to credit suisse, and when the down times come all the problems and debt is reverted back to the national govt to deal with, whereas during the good times the owners and shareholders do very well. That's not true capitalism, more crony.

The Brexit revolt against the Remain establishment has only just begun - daily telegraph​

The divide in British politics – and in the rest of the developed world – has, if anything, widened. The first camp believes in the top-down rule of experts, social engineers, lawyers, economists and philosopher-kings, empowered to construct, enforce and impose a “better”, more “rational” world; the second camp believes that power flows upwards, that we should listen to and respect the values, voices and opinions of ordinary people of all ethnicities and creeds who play by the rules, work hard, love their country and seek to improve their families’ lives.
The Tories must once again be the voice of this second group, or they are finished.

The future of the Tory party is on the radical centre-Right. To win next year, Sunak must fix immigration (and much else besides); if he fails, the next Tory leader will be chosen by the party membership and will be a Brexiteer, anti-ECHR and anti-woke. Partygate’s ludicrous shenanigans may or may not finish off Johnson’s political career, but it won’t destroy his entire legacy. The next Tory PM will have to be more of a Johnsonite than Boris ever was.

 

[justdoit]

This weekend's Brexit gift is the UK paying half a billion quid to build a detention centre for migrants in France, whilst also being told by France to fuck off when we asked them to replicate some of the Dublin Regulation framework we lost when we stropped out of the EU and lost the legal right to, erm, return migrants to France (or any other EU country).

So what was enshrined as an EU member as a right (that we absolutely did exercise), now costs us hundreds of millions of pounds and doesn't even come close to replacing what we lost.

Brexit in a nutshell.

View attachment 180638

they also paid £140m to Rwanda to exchange refuges

 

[ChopleyIOM]

John 'Thicky' Redwood being caught telling porkies on his blog, claiming he didn't support the NI Protocol when in fact, he actually voted for it in the Commons back in 2020.

Fortunately the 'rebellion' earlier in the week turned out to be nothing of the sort, with only 22 Tories voting against the government, so the Windsor Framework passed without any reliance on Labour or Lib Dem votes. It's quite amazing really, these are people who voted FOR the NI Protocol and yet now vote AGAINST Sunak's efforts to fix some of the shittiest aspects of it.

The way Brexit continues to eat its own children is nothing short of remarkable. I honestly think it'll go down as one of the biggest acts of collective madness in UK history.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Typically excellent analysis from Chris Grey here of the week's developments, (including some technical detail around what was actually voted on in the Commons this week, my previous post isn't entirely accurate in that detail), whilst they are opinion pieces in many regards, they're also grounded entirely in reality and cite endless reams of facts and evidence.

If you're genuinely curious to learn the truth about the absolute folly of Brexit, you could do a lot worse than read this blog.

Also here's the DAVIS DOWNSIDE DOSSIER, the current numbers on that are 966 downsides and..... 22 upsides, and it should be noted that some of those upsides are stuff like how well NI is doing in some regards with its unique access to the EU Single Market and the UK market, since the rest of the UK decided to blow its own feet off in that regard.

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[ChopleyIOM]

In many regards there's not much left to say about Brexit, it's clearly failed by any metrics, you only need to look at the circular firing squads its proponents have formed for ample evidence of that. Dover melted down again last weekend, yes there were various factors in play but having to check and stamp everyone's passports instead of coaches full of people just vaguely waving their passports at the French officials didn't help either - even the government had to row back from their nonsensical line that it was 'Nothing to do with Brexit' when they were laughed out of the building.

What is interesting though is the increasing majority of people in the UK who think Brexit was a mistake, and particularly how the number of 'Don't Knows' is consistently falling and aligning with the 'It was a mistake' camp. This does indicate that people are appraising the situation and using the evidence of their own eyes and experiences to inform their judgement, for example I think it's probably safe to say that anyone who endured Dover last weekend has some opinions about the subject now.

Also in play is the fact that, not to put too fine a point on it, the referendum was back in 2016, and many older people who voted for Brexit (because it was the old who secured the 'victory' of the UK leaving the EU) are now, quite frankly - dead, and they are not being replaced by people who are of the same opinion as them.

I fully expect these numbers to ultimately end up somewhere around 70/30, there are always going to be some diehards who will stick their fingers in their ears, close their eyes, and absolutely insist Brexit was the right thing to do for <INSERT NONSENSE JUSTIFICATIONS HERE>, but this majority will never, ever swing back the other way now - and IMO that puts us on the clock for the UK rejoining the EU, albeit I don't expect it to happen for quite a while yet.

Still, even the biggest of messes can get cleaned up eventually.

 

[Daavid63]

In many regards there's not much left to say about Brexit, it's clearly failed by any metrics, you only need to look at the circular firing squads its proponents have formed for ample evidence of that. Dover melted down again last weekend, yes there were various factors in play but having to check and stamp everyone's passports instead of coaches full of people just vaguely waving their passports at the French officials didn't help either - even the government had to row back from their nonsensical line that it was 'Nothing to do with Brexit' when they were laughed out of the building.

What is interesting though is the increasing majority of people in the UK who think Brexit was a mistake, and particularly how the number of 'Don't Knows' is consistently falling and aligning with the 'It was a mistake' camp. This does indicate that people are appraising the situation and using the evidence of their own eyes and experiences to inform their judgement, for example I think it's probably safe to say that anyone who endured Dover last weekend has some opinions about the subject now.

Also in play is the fact that, not to put too fine a point on it, the referendum was back in 2016, and many older people who voted for Brexit (because it was the old who secured the 'victory' of the UK leaving the EU) are now, quite frankly - dead, and they are not being replaced by people who are of the same opinion as them.

I fully expect these numbers to ultimately end up somewhere around 70/30, there are always going to be some diehards who will stick their fingers in their ears, close their eyes, and absolutely insist Brexit was the right thing to do for <INSERT NONSENSE JUSTIFICATIONS HERE>, but this majority will never, ever swing back the other way now - and IMO that puts us on the clock for the UK rejoining the EU, albeit I don't expect it to happen for quite a while yet.

Still, even the biggest of messes can get cleaned up eventually.

 

[pinnit2014]

*also compatible with Indy Ref supporters

 

[mack341]

France is the core of the EU - along with germany - so it could be argued membership is not contributing much of a feel good factor to their citizenry atm.

The dutch farmers' party have recently won lots of seats in the Netherlands:

Commentator Ben Coates described the result as "something of an earthquake in Dutch politics".

Although their policies are very much focused on opposing the government's environmental policies, he told the BBC most people would characterise them as a right-wing, populist party that was quite anti-EU, anti-immigration and in favour of banning burkas for Muslims.

 

[dunover]

France is the core of the EU - along with germany - so it could be argued membership is not contributing much of a feel good factor to their citizenry atm.

The dutch farmers' party have recently won lots of seats in the Netherlands:

Commentator Ben Coates described the result as "something of an earthquake in Dutch politics".

Although their policies are very much focused on opposing the government's environmental policies, he told the BBC most people would characterise them as a right-wing, populist party that was quite anti-EU, anti-immigration and in favour of banning burkas for Muslims.

The filth and corruption continues, remind yourselves why we told the bent corrupt EU to f-off.....

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[ChopleyIOM]

The filth and corruption continues, remind yourselves why we told the bent corrupt EU to f-off.....

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'In any large organisation there will be some rotters', shocker!

Any updates on the Pope's praying habits or where bears like to have a shit?

Where corruption exists it should be rooted out, exposed, and punished appropriately, which appears to be what is happening here. This applies as much to EU politics as it does UK politics.

Still, at least we don't have any of that sort of thing in the UK now we've left the nasty old EU. British corruption for the British!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Farage coming dangerously close to actually understanding something here. (i.e. You can't fight for something that is plainly broken at a fundamental level, hence there are so few people left defending it, it's like trying to make a car with square wheels work properly when the round wheels are literally just right over there.)

The thing with Brexit is it feels very much like dancing on the grave of the dead at this point, as it has so clearly and patently failed on every single level (Farage himself said the three words 'Brexit has failed' a couple of weeks ago).

I'm curious about a couple of things, is there anyone left who will still try to defend Brexit, perhaps it was the right idea but not done properly? (Which was always the right wing cat call about Socialism never working.) But more importantly, as public opinion in the UK shifts further and further towards the position that Brexit was a mistake, how do we fix it?

Would anyone really cry too many years if the UK rejoined the Single Market and Customs Union at this point, even with the EU rule following it entails? Our economy is bleeding out relative to our competitors, the USA and the EU are currently gearing up for a massive programme of subsidies to get EVs and other new green tech developed into major industries, and we're just a bit-player in the sidelines with no influence and no clout.

Both the EU and the USA recognise China as the real elephant in the room here, and they've got the muscle to make massive changes and bring back production to their own lands, the UK just doesn't have that, and outside the EU with all the trade barriers Brexit threw up, we can't really make ourselves attractive to foreign investment either, and our own economy is so fucked we can't pay for it.

We made ourselves a medium sized player in a world full of giants, when we could have been a top tier member of the club of giants.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Turns out Brexit was all about taking on the woke banks and Carol Vorderman.

This is the pivot I'm increasingly seeing now, since even your average mole has keen enough eyesight to work out Brexit has crashed and burned in apocalyptic fashion, it now has to have been about something completely different all along.

 

[bamberfishcake]

For someone who seems to be quite knowledgeable and a learned man, I find it hard to believe you still subscribe to the divisive design of UK politics Choppers.

Tories or Labour? It's all designed to keep us divided and occupied with the propaganda. We should be voting for the Reclaim Party, it seems they are the only ones concerned with reality rather than fantasy.

 

[DaftDog]

I've never really understood why some people treat their chosen political party leaders like movie stars. Seems a bit cultish.

 

[bamberfishcake]

Brainwashed.

 

[dunover]

Brexit?

Oh yeah, that thing that happened years ago, had forgotten all about it.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Brexit?

Oh yeah, that thing that happened years ago, had forgotten all about it.

'Happened' as in, 'we haven't even managed to put up a proper border yet'. (The EU did, which is why British business has been struggling with exports ever since we came out of transition, but we have, as of August 2023, failed to 'take back control' of our own fricking border.)

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UK ministers are set to confirm a fifth delay to the implementation of post-Brexit border controls on food and fresh products coming from the EU, pushing the launch of the new regime into next year.

Jeremy Hunt, the chancellor, backed the delay owing to fears that the new red tape will push up food prices during an inflationary crisis, while traders have also asked for more time to get ready for the new system.

The new regime for animal and plant products was originally meant to start in 2021, but the latest delay will mean that new paperwork will not be required until January and checks on imports will not start at ports until April 2024.The Cabinet Office said an announcement of the new regime and timetable would be made “shortly”; officials said it would come as early as Thursday — or by next week at the latest.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Turned out well then.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Old Frosty slightly letting the cat out of the bag here, calling the Windsor Framework a load of wank because it's too similar to the deal he himself negotiated, but the fact his deal was shit doesn't matter because the plan was never to honour it anyway.

This man was actually in charge of things.

I don't think I've ever seen so much damage caused in the political realm by such a load of clearly incompetent chancers, liars, and charlatans.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Brexit?

Oh yeah, that thing that happened years ago, had forgotten all about it.

'Thing that happened years ago' update, new raft of costs and hurdles to UK businesses from today as UK government finally starts to implement post-Brexit border controls after putting them off five times.

The lovely Ms Ridge also notes that the UK's population is due to surge to new all time highs in the next few years, fuelled mostly by immigration from non-EU countries.

'If Brexit were a videogame, I don't think we'd even be at the boss level yet'.

 

[dunover]

'Thing that happened years ago' update, new raft of costs and hurdles to UK businesses from today as UK government finally starts to implement post-Brexit border controls after putting them off five times.

The lovely Ms Ridge also notes that the UK's population is due to surge to new all time highs in the next few years, fuelled mostly by immigration from non-EU countries.

'If Brexit were a videogame, I don't think we'd even be at the boss level yet'.

Fuelled by a weak, spineless, inept traitorous government and opposition.

When a population is run by cowards, they will end up being bullied.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Fuelled by a weak, spineless, inept traitorous government and opposition.

When a population is run by cowards, they will end up being bullied.

So here we are in the aftermath of Brexit, which has signally failed to deliver every single thing that the liars who peddled it said it would.

But rather than accept that maybe Brexit itself is the problem, instead it was done wrong, or it was betrayed by traitors, or cowards wouldn't see it through properly.

Here's Sammy Wilson of the DUP, a party which wins the lifetime award for exceptional achievement in the realms of blowing your own feet off, explicitly stating they did nothing wrong and instead have been done over by a bunch of frauds.

Experts in NI politics - (the experts Mr Gove said we were all so bored of) - saw this coming a mile off, and shouted loud and clear that NI would end up getting fucked by Brexit, and yet the DUP helped cheerlead (and vote for it) all the way through.

But nope, not my fault guv'nor......



I mean, it's not like they weren't warned about this, including by two former UK Prime Ministers who were intimately involved in the NI peace process.

 

[dunover]

A Hamas sympathiser (unelected) or her:



Apart from not being invaded by terrorists, scroungers, rapists, paedophiles & criminals, poor Scots are even worse off than us.