Brexit - whats the difference.....

It shouldn't really need pointing out TBH but there is the slight issue of geography when it comes to Canada and Japan getting a different trade deal to that being offered to the UK, namely that the UK is literally just a few miles away from the EU, on a ferry or through a tunnel, whereas both Canada and Japan are thousands of miles away.

Add in the fact that we're still being arsey about signing up to Level Playing Field provisions and it's pretty easy to see why the EU aren't falling over themselves to open up the floodgates to a load of cheap stuff coming across the channel from a third country, which is what the UK will be at that point.

(Also there's the fact that by all accounts our Customs infrastructure is nowhere near going to be ready for Jan 2021, plus we're basically just going to wave everything in to keep goods flowing into the UK, which will turn us into a smuggler's paradise, hence another reason the EU are being very wary.)

It's yet another example of Leaver Victimhood Syndrome, the EU are punishing us by not giving us what we want, why can't we have what they have over there?

The EU only ever said that the UK would be in 'Canada Style' deal territory after the UK drew all its red lines, not that it would get the exact same deal as Canada. This was pointed out time and time again, years ago, but of course it was just dismissed as Project Fear and German Car Manufacturers and they need us more than we need them etc etc.
Its almost like UK wants the perks of being in the EU, without having to abide by any of the rules.


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Also, in other news.

Yes Covid has had an impact and continues to do so, but Brexit really is pouring petrol onto a bonfire. (Although ironically, petrol is one of the things we might be a short of.)

Note that this is a leaked UK Government paper, this is straight from the heart of government looking at how fucked up things might get as we move into 2021.

(Can I just play Leaver Buzzword Bingo and get something in here about the Remainer Civil Service.)

This is all fine and people totally understood that this is exactly what they were voting for.

And who's going to get hit hardest, those who already have least. Rich fuckers like Johnson and his cronies will be absolutely fine.

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Also, in other news.

Yes Covid has had an impact and continues to do so, but Brexit really is pouring petrol onto a bonfire. (Although ironically, petrol is one of the things we might be a short of.)

Note that this is a leaked UK Government paper, this is straight from the heart of government looking at how fucked up things might get as we move into 2021.

(Can I just play Leaver Buzzword Bingo and get something in here about the Remainer Civil Service.)

This is all fine and people totally understood that this is exactly what they were voting for.

And who's going to get hit hardest, those who already have least. Rich fuckers like Johnson and his cronies will be absolutely fine.

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So you reckon we might yet after all have no pigs-in-blankets this Christmas?

 
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It shouldn't really need pointing out TBH but there is the slight issue of geography when it comes to Canada and Japan getting a different trade deal to that being offered to the UK, namely that the UK is literally just a few miles away from the EU, on a ferry or through a tunnel, whereas both Canada and Japan are thousands of miles away.

Add in the fact that we're still being arsey about signing up to Level Playing Field provisions and it's pretty easy to see why the EU aren't falling over themselves to open up the floodgates to a load of cheap stuff coming across the channel from a third country, which is what the UK will be at that point.

(Also there's the fact that by all accounts our Customs infrastructure is nowhere near going to be ready for Jan 2021, plus we're basically just going to wave everything in to keep goods flowing into the UK, which will turn us into a smuggler's paradise, hence another reason the EU are being very wary.)

It's yet another example of Leaver Victimhood Syndrome, the EU are punishing us by not giving us what we want, why can't we have what they have over there?

The EU only ever said that the UK would be in 'Canada Style' deal territory after the UK drew all its red lines, not that it would get the exact same deal as Canada. This was pointed out time and time again, years ago, but of course it was just dismissed as Project Fear and German Car Manufacturers and they need us more than we need them etc etc.

That was a reply and questions to datch, funny how often that happens on this forum people answering my posts on behalf of others, but they never answer posts on behalf of me to others hmmm.

I don't mind debate from any direction, and I've probably done it myself a few times, but sometimes it does mean the thread is lost.

[and not all questions are replied to, e.g. what sovereignty have japan and canada given to the EU and vice versa? maybe no one knows but datch did say it was part of all trade deals. I am always open to being convinced on a point and other people have knowledge of things I don't, read and have access to different sources of news etc... ]

Because it was part of a logical debate in relation to previous posts; I said I favour a no-deal compared to a theresa may style deal, so this leaver victimhood syndrome you talk about is not really a label you should be applying in my direction. And I think there could be a bit of projection going on here, the victimhood mentality resides in remainers.
 
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@mack341 spot on mate, no deal would suit me fine...this applies to a lot of leavers too from what I've read. As you say, a lot of it is projection by remainers who are desperately trying to paint no deal as a catastrophe and that somehow leavers are lamenting the possibility.

As far as I was concerned back in 2016, a clean break from the EU is what we voted for?? It certainly wasn't a half in, half out balls up scenario.
 
@mack341 spot on mate, no deal would suit me fine...this applies to a lot of leavers too from what I've read. As you say, a lot of it is projection by remainers who are desperately trying to paint no deal as a catastrophe and that somehow leavers are lamenting the possibility.

As far as I was concerned back in 2016, a clean break from the EU is what we voted for?? It certainly wasn't a half in, half out balls up scenario.
Reported for being a selfish Bracist thicko

:eek:
 
@mack341 spot on mate, no deal would suit me fine...this applies to a lot of leavers too from what I've read. As you say, a lot of it is projection by remainers who are desperately trying to paint no deal as a catastrophe and that somehow leavers are lamenting the possibility.

As far as I was concerned back in 2016, a clean break from the EU is what we voted for?? It certainly wasn't a half in, half out balls up scenario.

Great. Bye!
Now EU can focus on more important things :p
 
I have no ill feeling towards the EU nor its member states and hope that it can continue to do the best by the countries it has under its umbrella :) Every other European country will still be a friend of the UK.

Sure and UK can always come back to the EU I'm sure. But in the meanwhile EU should use all the leverage it can to get the most favorable trade deal for the EU with the UK. Gonna need some extra cash to deal with problems inside the EU.
 
I can sign Chopleys answer, but I wouldn't be able to formulate it that nice as English is not even my second language. :D

"Giving up sovereignty" was meant in a more general sense. Both sides set (negotiate) rules that both sides have to adhere to, which means a loss of sovereignty (standards for food or factory farming, etc).
To do this, you have to be ready to step back from your "red lines" or to change them. The UK-"negotiation" - team around Frost doesn't seem to want to move an inch in the negotiations. Out of the abstract fear of losing sovereignty, the uk-team wants to dictate and not negotiate.
That is excactly not how negotiations of trade deals work (at least if a party is in a weak position like the UK).
Hope I didn't create more confusion now :)
 
@mack341 spot on mate, no deal would suit me fine...this applies to a lot of leavers too from what I've read. As you say, a lot of it is projection by remainers who are desperately trying to paint no deal as a catastrophe and that somehow leavers are lamenting the possibility.

As far as I was concerned back in 2016, a clean break from the EU is what we voted for?? It certainly wasn't a half in, half out balls up scenario.

Well you're in the minority, because only 35% of Leave voters thought the UK would leave the Single Market at the time of the referendum, let alone end up leaving with No Deal.

I think there's a bit of revisionism going on in some camps. 'Ahhhhh yes this is exactly what I voted for. Even though absolutely no one was talking about us ever ending up in this position in the lead up to the referendum, I however could clearly see that not only was this situation a distinct possibility, it is indeed desirable'.

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In fact, let's refresh our memories a little bit. Because it seems to me that pretty much literally no one who was prominent in the Leave campaign was saying anything other than how easy Brexit would be, what a great deal we'd get, and everything would get better.

These are just a small sample. So the narrative now is, that folks heard what all these people were saying and concluded, 'They're all wrong, I'm voting Leave because I think No Deal is not only possible, but also desirable and I am voting on that basis'.

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No one who has an inkling about the EU ever thought it would be easy to get a trade deal, the ball is in the EU's court, are they interested in free trade with one of their biggest export markets [by € ]or not.

They've created such a huge system of rules and laws [red tape] that they then have a problem 'how do we trade with countries outside of our red tape'

Is the uk better off trading under world trade rules [with tariffs] than accepting too much future 'rule making' by the EU, that's the question I think.

I'm sure there is a compromise somewhere, perhaps the EU need to be a bit less paranoid?
 
No one who has an inkling about the EU ever thought it would be easy to get a trade deal, the ball is in the EU's court, are they interested in free trade with one of their biggest export markets [by € ]or not.

They've created such a huge system of rules and laws [red tape] that they then have a problem 'how do we trade with countries outside of our red tape'

Is the uk better off trading under world trade rules [with tariffs] than accepting too much future 'rule making' by the EU, that's the question I think.

I'm sure there is a compromise somewhere, perhaps the EU need to be a bit less paranoid?

paranoid about what exactly?
 
No one who has an inkling about the EU ever thought it would be easy to get a trade deal, the ball is in the EU's court, are they interested in free trade with one of their biggest export markets [by € ]or not.

They've created such a huge system of rules and laws [red tape] that they then have a problem 'how do we trade with countries outside of our red tape'

Is the uk better off trading under world trade rules [with tariffs] than accepting too much future 'rule making' by the EU, that's the question I think.

I'm sure there is a compromise somewhere, perhaps the EU need to be a bit less paranoid?

Why is the ball in the EU's court? They laid out a negotiating position years ago, and told the UK what would and wouldn't be available to us as a third country, and clarified further around the red lines that were drawn by the UK.

They've stuck to that negotiating position throughout, it's the UK that's throwing a strop about not being able to cherry pick the bits of being in the EU it likes whilst refusing to sign up to the responsibilities that come with the good stuff.

Also, implicit in your post there mack is that you knew full well that every single prominent Leaver was either knowingly lying their arses off or didn't have the first earthly clue what they were talking about. Not exactly a shining endorsement of the campaign.

Did you communicate that to people at the time, like, your mate Fred from down the road who was going to vote Leave? So when Fred was talking to you about how he was going to vote Leave because we'd get a great trade deal and be better off, you corrected him and were like, 'Well actually Fred, it's going to be incredibly difficult to get a good trade deal with the EU, even one that leaves us in roughly the same position as we are now. You don't want to believe anything that the Leave campaign is saying to you because it's all bollocks'.
 
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paranoid about what exactly?


Paranoid about other countries leaving, about losing the power/control they've obtained and their superstate project, or the UK doing comparatively better outside their rules etc...

They are some of the things that come to mind; if you have a mentality/system that is all about control, then you fear any challenge or change to that.
 
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Paranoid about other countries leaving, about losing the power/control they've obtained and their superstate project, or the UK doing better comparatively outside their rules etc...

They are some of the things that come to mind; if you have a mentality/system that is all about control, then you fear any challenge or change to that.

If you look at the opinion polls from other EU countries, their populations are now more pro-EU than they were at the time the UK voted to leave in 2016. The shift isn't massive, but it is there. The notion that Brexit would precipitate the collapse of the EU was a fallacy in 2016, and it's a fallacy now.

Other EU countries have, in essence, looked at the utter shitshow we've foisted upon ourselves and said, 'Yeah, on balance, whilst the EU isn't perfect, it's certainly a lot better than what the UK is doing.'
 
Paranoid about other countries leaving, about losing the power/control they've obtained and their superstate project, or the UK doing better comparatively outside their rules etc...

They are some of the things that come to mind; if you have a mentality/system that is all about control, then you fear any challenge or change to that.

Oh that sounds like there are some outside forces that's controlling all these countries :p
You know these EU countries stay together 'cause they want to. Any one of them can leave just like UK did if they wanted to.
 
Why is the ball in the EU's court? They laid out a negotiating position years ago, and told the UK what would and wouldn't be available to us as a third country, and clarified further around the red lines that were drawn by the UK.

They've stuck to that negotiating position throughout, it's the UK that's throwing a strop about not being able to cherry pick the bits of being in the EU it likes whilst refusing to sign up to the responsibilities that come with the good stuff.

Also, implicit in your post there mack is that you knew full well that every single prominent Leaver was either knowingly lying their arses off or didn't have the first earthly clue what they were talking about. Not exactly a shining endorsement of the campaign.

Did you communicate that to people at the time, like, your mate Fred from down the road who was going to vote Leave? So when Fred was talking to you about how he was going to vote Leave because we'd get a great trade deal and be better off, you corrected him and were like, 'Well actually Fred, it's going to be incredibly difficult to get a good trade deal with the EU, even one that leaves us in roughly the same position as we are now. You don't want to believe anything that the Leave campaign is saying to you because it's all bollocks'.

:laugh: Chop Life is a bit more complicated and nuanced than that as you well know following current affairs and politics. I also knew the politicians from the remain side were also lying and using fear to get people to vote their way. [edit: exaggerating is probably the better term for both sides]

Well if the EU want to shoot themselves and us in the foot, it's up to them; their negotiating red lines leaves us in a position of having hardly left, we'll still have to follow their rules [new and old] etc...

I am expecting some sort of UK compromise simply because of the establishment are mainly remainers, and they get what they want, we will have the appearance of brexit though.

The fact david frost is solidly sticking to his guns has surprised me a bit, as it's totally different to the way negotiations were handled before, however I struggle to believe it's about haulage rules or other side issues, even fishing as we hardly have any fishermen left to fish our waters.

After reading these two articles/blogs below, I tend to think it's more likely about financial services and the city of london, and who will make their rules, the UK or the EU.

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Oh that sounds like there are some outside forces that's controlling all these countries :p
You know these EU countries stay together 'cause they want to. Any one of them can leave just like UK did if they wanted to.

I think things are different on the continent, but there are still plenty of eurosceptics, and it's growing amongst the left too. eg. they weren't happy with the TTIP. Let's wait and see once the EU tables more of it's plans and objectives how people react, they have a new president now who will have her goals.
 
I think things are different on the continent, but there are still plenty of eurosceptics, and it's growing amongst the left too. eg. they weren't happy with the TTIP. Let's wait and see once the EU tables more of it's plans and objectives how people react, they have a new president now who will have her goals.

I'm pretty sure that the population knows nothing about some TTIP. And UK is giving a great example how you can screw things up with Brexit and whatnot. I don't think other countries want to go that route any time soon...so I guess I should thank you brexiteers? :p
 
I'm pretty sure that the population knows nothing about some TTIP. And UK is giving a great example how you can screw things up with Brexit and whatnot. I don't think other countries want to go that route any time soon...so I guess I should thank you brexiteers? :p

Thank goodness Trump torpedoed it:

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Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) today voted to pass a resolution on the secretly negotiated EU-US trade deal, the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP).

The vote, which passed by 436 to 241, highlighted serious splits in the European Parliament (EP) on the issue, especially among the Socialist and Democrat (S&D) bloc which includes Labour MEPs.

There was uproar from some MEPs in today's vote, including among members of EP president Martin Schulz's own S&D bloc, at what they perceived to be manipulation of voting procedures to ensure no anti-'ISDS' (investor-state dispute settlement) amendment would be voted on.

The vote took place at the second time of asking: it was originally scheduled to take place in June, but was controversially postponed at the last minute at the request of Schulz, due to fears that the vote would be lost.

War on Want Executive Director John Hilary said: “More than 2.3 million people across Europe are calling for an end to TTIP negotiations in the biggest trade campaign we've seen to date. Yet MEPs have chosen to ignore the wishes of their own constituents, siding instead with the business lobby against the people of Europe.

“TTIP offers a nightmare vision of a world sold into corporate slavery. If our elected representatives betray us by backing this vision, we will have no choice but to escalate the campaign.”


Ahead of the vote, there was political wrangling and deal-making over one of the most controversial elements of the deal, the corporate court system of ISDS which allows business to sue states for policies threatening future profits.
 
Well if the EU want to shoot themselves and us in the foot, it's up to them; their negotiating red lines leaves us in a position of having hardly left, we'll still have to follow their rules [new and old] etc...

I am expecting some sort of UK compromise simply because of the establishment are mainly remainers, and they get what they want, we will have the appearance of brexit though.

So hang on a minute, is No Deal Brexit something to fear or not? Because on the one hand you're saying that the EU has the ability to 'shoot us in the foot' but on the other hand No Deal is nothing to be fearful of because we're better off with a clean break and can get on with being buccaneering Britain again. (And indeed Mr Slot asserts that's actively what he voted for, to be 'shot in the foot', apparently.)

The EU's negotiating 'red lines' are simply the rules of the club, I don't know how many times I can possibly explain this, or rearrange the words into a different order, but the rules have always been crystal clear, and were clearly explained many years ago, there's the well known graphic that shows how the UK basically ruled everything out with its actual red lines, that under EU rules left it getting a Canada STYLE deal, (not the exact same deal as Canada, as already covered).

I mean, wasn't one of the main points of Brexit to ESCAPE FROM THE RULES OF BRUSSELS? So we can hardly call foul when we leave the EU and then, as a third country, the EU erm, apply those rules to us based on what level of level of access we wish to retain. (Which we absolutely are doing, witness the issues around hauliers' rights that cropped up last week.)

This all comes full circle back to how Brexit works as a slogan, but it doesn't work in reality, and the second any sort of scrutiny is applied to it, the only comeback from Leavers is that it's still the EU's fault.

On that point, I note how you're already setting up the 'betrayal narrative' so that if the UK should compromise to get a deal, then Brexit will have been betrayed, because it's not 'proper' Brexit.

But then, what is 'proper' Brexit, the one that shoots us in the foot? (Your words, not mine! :) )

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