Brexit - whats the difference.....

[mack341]

 

[ChopleyIOM]

That is an interesting juxtaposition to hold alongside strongly supporting the EU, where laws are being made centrally by unelected bureaucrats, even a choice of president isn't given to the people.

I believe the issue the uk govt face is having internal trade between the UK and NI attract tariffs, which is obviously madness, so they want to make sure that cannot happen. That's my understanding, but I could be wrong, hopefully all will be revealed tomorrow.

With respect mack there's a big difference between the history of Ireland (and the UK's terrible behaviour there) and the history of the UK as a member of the EU, at no point were we 'invaded' by the EU and subject to many of the atrocities that were seen in Ireland.

(And indeed, the EU project was in many ways borne out of the horrors of the history of war in Europe, and to avoid ever repeating those horrors. You can argue that it's gone too far in terms of political integration and 'Brussels Overreach', but honestly mack, you can't in good faith seek to find an equivalence between the EU project and the history of Ireland and the UK's role there.)

As for the current UK/NI situation mack, this is literally what Johnson 'negotiated', promoted, fought an election on, claimed a great victory, and now wants to renege on.

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[mack341]

With respect mack there's a big difference between the history of Ireland (and the UK's terrible behaviour there) and the history of the UK as a member of the EU, at no point were we 'invaded' by the EU and subject to many of the atrocities that were seen in Ireland.

(And indeed, the EU project was in many ways borne out of the horrors of the history of war in Europe, and to avoid ever repeating those horrors. You can argue that it's gone too far in terms of political integration and 'Brussels Overreach', but honestly mack, you can't in good faith seek to find an equivalence between the EU project and the history of Ireland and the UK's role there.)

As for the current UK/NI situation mack, this is literally what Johnson 'negotiated', promoted, fought an election on, claimed a great victory, and now wants to renege on.

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View attachment 141238

I'm scratching my head here thinking 'was I making a point that the EU's history & relationship with the uk has been similar to the one between ireland and the uk ?' ...not sure I was strictly making that point, more that the principle of a 'community/people asserting it's identity' doesn't really sit very well with a EU making decisions/laws centrally and the citizens not having much of a democratic input.

I think the brussel's overreach will continue to increase as each year passes, unless they change fundamentally, the EU objectives and structure are designed to go in that direction. You just need to read
verhofstadt's twitter to see where he wants things to go, an Eu army and central foreign policy plus new taxes, and he is very influential.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Latest issue of Private Eye has just dropped through our letterbox

 

[Slottery]

Was bored today and read article about that NI idea from Boris gang and i'm happy that i don't have to negotiate with them. It seem to be like trying to make three year old to understand something, not a first time within these negotiations when EU have to mention that "this is agreed long time ago, it's negotiated already, could we move forward?"

I understand that Bojo don't hold really great cards atm, but usually at some point you just have to fold your bad cards and save what you can save. Great PR for UK even to publish these kind of things that "we decided to break this and this, even these were agreed in contract, we decided we don't like them". Wonder who soon wanna make any remarkable deals with party who follow agreements when they feel to and change T&C:s like some rogue casino.

It's hard to admit that you don't walk away as big winner you hoped and have been very noisy about, but that often wisdom to understand that it's just not possible, instead of starting to do some desperate tricks in last minute, bluffing time is unfortunately over from Bojo&co, now just take what you can and be happy to have your power back and blue passports.

 

[goatwack]

Kind of impressive really, when claiming to uphold democratic values and principles and shun any talk of a 2nd 'post-fact' Referendum, that Boris is indeed disposing of said steadfast principles at the 11th hour by reneging on key points!

But hey, at least it was a great sound bite, for a while at least

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The game that Johnson and the government are playing is painfully obvious, i.e. behaving so abominably that the EU could (justifiably) walk away from the talks, but of course then the 'blame' for a No Deal would be on the EU, in their eyes at least.

'Look we wanted a deal! But the rotten EU spoiled it to punish us!'

Unfortunately for them it doesn't seem to be working, the EU side have seen straight through the tactics and are behaving like the grown-ups in the room. At the same time Starmer isn't letting himself be baited by Johnson on Brexit either (as Johnson desperately tried to do at PMQs yesterday).

We also need to keep an eye on the USA, as they're very interested in the developing situation with regard to Ireland.

As Ian Dunt neatly summarises it. There's a shitstorm coming, and folks are making sure that Johnson and his government will be responsible for it, and have to own it.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This all seems to be going swimmingly well.

Who'd have thought that a nation state clearly signalling its intention to break international law and violate a binding agreement it'd signed less than a year earlier would have consequences?

I'm sure the German Car Manufacturers will be along shortly to sort everything out for us.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Repeat after me - it's what we voted for.

It's what we voted for.

It's definitely what we voted for.

Parity with the Euro for the pound a possibility? Ouch.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

When your country loses any and all moral authority it had on the international stage, in real time, right in front of you.

The costs of Brexit, on a multitude of fronts, are now incalculable.

 

[mack341]

Chop you don't think perhaps you're overblowing this withdrawal treaty change a little bit?

Why are the EU so upset about us changing something regarding our own kingdom, that we manage the trade ourselves between england, wales, scot and NI.

AFAIK we have not started constructing posts at the border with Ireland, so what changes re the good friday agreement; I can't see what the problem is in reality for the EU, are they worried cheap exports from the uk will slip into europe via ireland [republic] ?

People said at the time boris signed it, having a border in the irish sea was a fudge which didn't make a lot of sense. I suspect the uk govt were hoping a free trade deal would be agreed by now and therefore tariffs would never arise in any event.

 

[Kroffe]

Even if they gambled on a free trade deal being agreed by now, they lost that gamble.
Doesnt mean they can just back out of whats been promised already.
Or i mean, they can, but it wont look good.
Why would any country want to deal with a country who behaves like that?

Deadpool gets it!

 

[mack341]

Even if they gambled on a free trade deal being agreed by now, they lost that gamble.

Possibly the reason for that is the EU haven't been 'negotiating in good faith', which is part of the WA. Does 'we won't discuss a free trade deal, until you first agree for us to continue to have unfettered access to your fish' ring any bells?

And the withdrawal agreement had many frowning at the time; I must admit it seems odd and retarded the conservative govt agreed and signed it but now want to legislate to bypass parts of it, I'd like boris to have to answer that. I don't buy the not forseeable bs.

 

[mack341]

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^ warning big pdf on the withdrawal agreement from brexiteers


"The WA amounts to a ‘poison pill’, leaving the UK subjugated to the EU. There are specific terms in the Northern Ireland Protocol (the Protocol), as well as in other parts of the WA, giving power to the EU and encroaching on UK sovereignty with regard to State aid, EU citizens’ rights, ‘divorce payment’ liabilities, future financial liabilities, EU data protection laws, EU geographical indications of origin, provisions relating to UK sovereign bases in Cyprus and Gibraltar, as well as numerous other matters

– Separately, in the negotiations, the EU is demanding additional sovereignty renunciations with regard to fishing rights and demands for a ‘level playing field’

– The Political Declaration (PD) invites the UK to participate in various defence and industry schemes that would undercut our future independence and freedom of manoeuvre "

---------

No wonder the EU leaders were ecstatic and all smiles when bojo agreed it.

 

[sufferinsilence]

 

[Kroffe]

You know i aint reading that pdf. (my attention span wont allow me to)
If he had no intention to honor the deal, he probably shouldnt have signed it in the first place.
I dont think breaking international law to bypass it is the best solution.

Even Pikachu gets it, and english is not his first language.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

You know i aint reading that pdf. (my attention span wont allow me to)
If he had no intention to honor the deal, he probably shouldnt have signed it in the first place.
I dont think breaking international law to bypass it is the best solution.

Even Pikachu gets it, and english is not his first language.

View attachment 141359

But if he didn't sign it, we'd have been left in the same quandary as we were, with the opposition acting in such a way that parliament was paralysed.

Can you not see, anyone who was not pro Brexit was deliberately trying to bring the whole thing down. Ally that to the stance of the EU and we have been backed completely into a corner. It has essentially been ''remain in the 'club' or else''

Can you also see that this side of the EU is not very pretty at all. You can certainly see the aspiration to become an empire by hook or by crook. Fair play if you want to be part of that, but vast swathes of the UK want no part in it.

 

[Kroffe]

But if he didn't sign it, we'd have been left in the same quandary as we were, with the opposition acting in such a way that parliament was paralysed.

Can you not see, anyone who was not pro Brexit was deliberately trying to bring the whole thing down. Ally that to the stance of the EU and we have been backed completely into a corner. It has essentially been ''remain in the 'club' or else''

Can you also see that this side of the EU is not very pretty at all. You can certainly see the aspiration to become an empire by hook or by crook. Fair play if you want to be part of that, but vast swathes of the UK want no part in it.

So he was forced to sign the deal to get out of the club?
But now he realized the deal he signed didnt really let him out of the club as much as he would have liked.
Seems to me he never had any intention whatsoever to honor the deal.
No way they didnt know about the things brought up now back then.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

So he was forced to sign the deal to get out of the club?
But now he realized the deal he signed didnt really let him out of the club as much as he would have liked.
Seems to me he never had any intention whatsoever to honor the deal.
No way they didnt know about the things brought up now back then.

Of course they knew. That's pretty much a given.

What I'm saying is that they literally had no choice at the time...politically we were in a quandary here. Parliament was useless because nothing could pass. Whilst we were in this position, other areas of governance were being neglected by default. Boris didn't have the numbers to push anything through. Therefore he needed a big majority. He got it...but he wouldn't have done unless the deal was signed. His whole campaign was based on 'get Brexit done'.

The people then voted him in to get Brexit done- but he could only do this with his majority in parliament.

At the time it was a catch 22 so it really was the only way to get any progress at all.

 

[goatwack]

Powerful, had to

 

[Kroffe]

Hows that a fiasco.
Any birthday party with a dildo-donkey is sure to be a great one.
Probably.

 

[Slottery]

Possibly the reason for that is the EU haven't been 'negotiating in good faith', which is part of the WA. Does 'we won't discuss a free trade deal, until you first agree for us to continue to have unfettered access to your fish' ring any bells?

Wouldn't really say it's EU who's not "negotiating in good faith", EU is negotiating good things to itself and all it's countries, it more seems that UK negotiators thought (and like that oven ready trade deal was promoted) that it's possible to cherry pick what they want and get it. Of course there are many things EU want and demand, there's not gonna be any birthday presents for leaving countries. Don't know where these all thoughts came that UK just tell what want and get it without anything. Now it seems that UK is not even happy to honor already signed deals.

It's really hard to see outside of UK that it would be EU here who just wanna be bad for UK and not negotiate. It seem to be otherway round that UK would be happy that EU would leave table that there would be somebody else to blame than Bojo&Co but that really don't seem to be the case. There are loads of words and some niche things which really are not that major which UK negotiators want to blame EU to be bad, but if talks for ever go around some fcking fishing things what shouldn't be really high priority (but it's made one to be symbolic to show how bad EU is and some other quite imaginary stories how EU still try to steal UK sovereignty which looks good in UK papers and give people feeling that it is big bad EU who want to revenge and destroy us because we left).

There's not that much time left anymore, then at least it's too late to bluff anymore, of course afterwards years and decades people there keep speaking how rude and evil EU was from us and it's their fault that some things are fcked up. Looking to mirror don't seem to be biggest strength of Bojo but maybe (or maybe not) he at one point have to admit to people that this great brexit wasn't that great success than we loudly promoted.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Dominic cummings wants to up govt investment into the technology sector, seems eminently sensible, and therefore we can't run the risk of the EU and its courts interfering & deciding what we can and can't do in this regard.

Yes, about that.....

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Of course they knew. That's pretty much a given.

What I'm saying is that they literally had no choice at the time...politically we were in a quandary here. Parliament was useless because nothing could pass. Whilst we were in this position, other areas of governance were being neglected by default. Boris didn't have the numbers to push anything through. Therefore he needed a big majority. He got it...but he wouldn't have done unless the deal was signed. His whole campaign was based on 'get Brexit done'.

The people then voted him in to get Brexit done- but he could only do this with his majority in parliament.

At the time it was a catch 22 so it really was the only way to get any progress at all.

The interesting thing about what you've said there Mr Slot is that you've literally just admitted that the only way to 'GET BREXIT DONE' and get the WA through parliament and get the British public to vote for the 'OVEN READY DEAL' was for everyone involved to lie their arses off about it.

i.e. Actually telling the truth about what the WA involved would have been unpalatable to both parliament and the public. Johnson lied and lied and lied about the implications of the WA (or rather, the lack of implications), lied about his 'oven ready deal', and lied to his own MPs, assuring them that they could 'change the WA later on' to get them to vote for it.

Also let's remember that the WA was only signed and ratified after Johnson had won the election with an 80 seat majority, so he could have paused for breath at that point and taken stock of what he was about to commit the UK to in international law.

 

[Slottery]

Yes, about that.....

View attachment 141370
View attachment 141371

Are there btw any concrete plans about these tech project or is it just start from point zero and let's do something? I have to admit that i have no idea how much tech companies and it as industry exist in UK these days. Just interested what some huge tech company will start to do or is it just planning in progress? It's also quite competitive industry with few huge and loads of smaller companies who are doing quite good products as possible with current technology, so just thinking what is the area where that huge tech project is going to make its market share? If there are already some great companies with good business plans and products, excuse me my lack of knowledge, just can't get any to my head right away.

Just meant that if there are no many good projects already or in pipeline, it's not really easy just decide to start to do something and compete with these giant companies who have been in business for very long time. Building better tech products and make people to change their Apples, Samsungs etc... to them is not really easy, investing $1tn doesn't yet give you anything.

 

[dunover]

Powerful, had to

"Hey ho! away we go, donkey riding, donkey riding, hey ho! away....."

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Are there btw any concrete plans about these tech project or is it just start from point zero and let's do something? I have to admit that i have no idea how much tech companies and it as industry exist in UK these days. Just interested what some huge tech company will start to do or is it just planning in progress? It's also quite competitive industry with few huge and loads of smaller companies who are doing quite good products as possible with current technology, so just thinking what is the area where that huge tech project is going to make its market share? If there are already some great companies with good business plans and products, excuse me my lack of knowledge, just can't get any to my head right away.

Just meant that if there are no many good projects already or in pipeline, it's not really easy just decide to start to do something and compete with these giant companies who have been in business for very long time. Building better tech products and make people to change their Apples, Samsungs etc... to them is not really easy, investing $1tn doesn't yet give you anything.

Rumours abound that it's a vehicle for Cummings and his pals to get very rich. (You only need to look at how the various health contracts have been issued during Covid to see which way the wind is blowing on that one.)

Also, as noted above, without data sharing agreements and suchlike (which the EU are hardly going to be falling over themselves to give us now, since we've proven ourselves to be completely untrustworthy), it's basically dead in the water anyway.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

And again on the Northern Ireland situation, this was known about years ago. The reason it didn't reach critical mass during the referendum campaign and in the years that followed, and has only reached nuclear level now, is that the Leave side has been lying and lying and lying about it.

But that's the thing with lies, eventually they get found out.

You can tell how far this one goes back just by the fact it refers to Theresa May's dilemma!

Like much of Brexit, the NI situation with regards to Brexit has always existed in 'D' - i.e. Impossible, magical thinking, unicorns.

 

[dunover]

Rumours abound that it's a vehicle for Cummings and his pals to get very rich. (You only need to look at how the various health contracts have been issued during Covid to see which way the wind is blowing on that one.)

Also, as noted above, without data sharing agreements and suchlike (which the EU are hardly going to be falling over themselves to give us now, since we've proven ourselves to be completely untrustworthy), it's basically dead in the water anyway.

I dunno about Brexit, but you've just cost me £36......

 

[Slottery]

Rumours abound that it's a vehicle for Cummings and his pals to get very rich. (You only need to look at how the various health contracts have been issued during Covid to see which way the wind is blowing on that one.)

Also, as noted above, without data sharing agreements and suchlike (which the EU are hardly going to be falling over themselves to give us now, since we've proven ourselves to be completely untrustworthy), it's basically dead in the water anyway.

Ok, so they have nothing, get public investment for developing and doesn't matter what happen, they can pocket some dosh as dividends, salaries, buying things from companies they have connections and other such nice stuff.
Was just wondering that if they really have something, there are no any area in high tech where you just make product easily without long developing, great idea to do something better than others and loads of knowhow. These international tech giants are just so huge and in business so long time that you don't easily push ie. Google off from market and take their share, all parts of that industry have their big players who are miles ahead if you start from near zero so just saying that we invest £xxxxx to tech company(ies) don't really ring you anything, you can of course make some people rich if you get investments.

Starting to wait first UK big tech break through and if it's consumer product, will buy for support

 

[mack341]

Interesting interview that mentions the EU needs the city of London, because the currency isn't sovereign, in the traditional sense, the debt ought to be treated as riskier. So the companies in the EU raise a lot of finance from London at a cheaper cost than they ought, maybe this is the underlying reason for the uk govt's confidence that the EU will at some point compromise.

The govt don't seem worried at all re brexit, ditto the crushing covid lockdown effect on the economy, we'll just print the money it seems, '100 billion for a 'moonshot' testing scheme, sure why not'.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well that interview was seven months ago and I don't recall hearing any stories of dramatic EU concessions since then.....

One thing's for sure though, we don't have much longer to wait to see how it's all going to pan out.....

 

[mack341]

An extract from a piece written by reynolds in the daily telegraph; also throws light on why the EU covid rescue deal was so hard to agree, the rich north and comparatively poor south issue in the EU.
Which could be a political hot potato for the north to resolve with their electorate in the long term.

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The Telegraph, April 21st, Barnabas Reynolds

There is a critical defect at the heart of the Eurozone. It is becoming more obvious by the day that its finances are fundamentally flawed, and this is because there is no single sovereign entity raising capital for the whole Eurozone.

At present, all separate Eurozone countries raise monies on the debt capital markets without fear that any of them can be punished (as an individual country) by currency collapse. This is in particular because strong Eurozone states, especially Germany, now run very large surpluses. These surpluses are primarily due to the euro’s value being depressed, which in turn is because the southern Eurozone states have been and remain less competitive, heavily indebted, economies.

These surpluses also arise because Eurozone sellers, especially in the successful north, are subsidised by the Eurosystem’s fiscal arrangements which provide unlimited financing to their Eurozone-based buyers – massively increasing member debts, particularly in the south.

This is an unstable situation and, unless rectified, sooner or later the expense of debt servicing will overwhelm the southern states. Unless the north agrees to fix matters by “mutualising” southern debt while moving to an integrated union – more like the USA, resulting in a steady transfer of funds from the Eurozone’s north to south – this problem is likely to precipitate state bankruptcy in the south. However, the north currently emphatically refuses to consider mutualisation, thus enjoying unalloyed benefits from these self-funding arrangements. Now the additional and enormous cost brought on by the Covid-19 pandemic increases the threat of state bankruptcy in the south, hazarding consequences even more dangerous than before.

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This is what EU fanatics like verhofstadt want, closer union: central army, foreign policy and taxes, more or less one unified state.

 

[mack341]

Here you go remainer fear mongers ... the uk's first major trade deal is imminent:

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Let's not get too carried away, the government's own figures peg it at a 0.07% boost to UK GDP over the next fifteen years (no, really).

Compare that with the 5-7% loss to UK GDP that leaving the EU and Single Market is predicted to cost us.

It's also substantially the same as the EU-Japan trade deal we'd have got anyway as an EU member (despite what the UK government are saying (hint - lying) about it).

Don't get me wrong, it's still a good thing overall, but it also neatly demonstrates how getting Deals as opposed to No Deals, is actually a good thing.....

 

[mack341]

I won't comment on what I think about James o'brien, but I remember him using his morning radio show to strongly advocate for the Iraq war, which helped me along the road to realise what a con the new labour project was. So nothing changes, nearly 20 years later, and he is still on the same page as Tony Blair. [a fellow eu fanatic]

If we can conclude this deal with japan why is it so hard to get a deal with the EU, something we were a part of for 40 odd years, I am convinced it is the EU being unreasonable, they are still more interested in their power grabbing project than getting a good FTA.



-----------

I also read elsewhere that NI has to vote for the arrangements in the WA to continue, which I did not know:

The Withdrawal Agreement effectively places Northern Ireland under EU economic jurisdiction – a kind of EEA-for-NI deal. At the same time, NI remains within the UK customs area. So NI can benefit from certain aspects of changes to UK tariffs or from trade agreements the UK does with non-EU countries. But its regulations are largely set by the EU.

The arrangement is not permanent. Northern Ireland has to vote to continue with the arrangements, once every four years (or 8 years under certain technical circumstances). If it does not vote to continue, the arrangements lapse and Northern Ireland comes back under UK regulatory jurisdiction.

 

[mack341]

This clip of barnier is very telling [0.46] when the subject of the backstop comes up " for me there is also a strategic and tactical reason, which is using ireland for future negotiations"



So a deliberate ploy by the EU to leverage the Irish troubles and situation for their own (power mad) ends, and in order to thwart the outcome, in reality, of the brexit vote; and remainers in the uk govt like theresa may, olly robbins etc.. gladly went along with it.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes it's definitely the EU's fault, those tricky tricksters.

Just so we're clear, by using some form of advanced mind control they manged to make Johnson do the following with regards to the WA.

1) Negotiate it
2) Agree to it
3) Call it 'oven-ready'
4) Campaign for a general election on the basis of it
5) Win an election mandate off the back of it
6) Transpose it into law on a three-line whip

None of this is ever the Leavers fault is it? Apparently there's a world where they just don't have to own ANY of this, and it's all down to the dastardly EU - it's cognitive dissonance on a biblical scale.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Wow, sucks to be the guy who negotiated and signed the WA.

 

[mack341]

Yes it's definitely the EU's fault, those tricky tricksters.

Just so we're clear, by using some form of advanced mind control they manged to make Johnson do the following with regards to the WA.

1) Negotiate it
2) Agree to it
3) Call it 'oven-ready'
4) Campaign for a general election on the basis of it
5) Win an election mandate off the back of it
6) Transposed it into law on a three-line whip

None of this is just ever the Leavers fault is it? Apparently there's a world where they just don't have to own ANY of this, and it's all down to the dastardly EU - it's cognitive dissonance on a biblical scale.

I agree re Johnson, no idea what was going through his mind entirely, slot5 explained it a few posts back but to me it still doesn't make full sense, I would like to see several MP's ask him on this very point, boris was bigging the deal up as well, so that was blatant bs to the public.

However to me the EU still bear the brunt of criticism, at the bottom of it they are quite happy to ignore the results of democratic votes, it's happened before [I think with the lisbon treaty vote in ireland?] as well. They've been getting too big for their boots, and will carry on doing so once the covid crisis moves on.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I agree re Johnson, no idea what was going through his mind entirely, slot5 explained it a few posts back but to me it still doesn't make full sense, I would like to see several MP's ask him on this very point, boris was bigging the deal up as well, so that was blatant bs to the public.

The explanation is clear once you understand and accept that Johnson is an opportunistic chancer who will say anything and everything if it gets him over the immediate hump of whatever it is that's causing him trouble at any given time, and absolutely will tell baldfaced lies if it suits his agenda.

---------------------

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I dunno about Brexit, but you've just cost me £36......

View attachment 141375

You'll have to let us know what you think of it

There are actually a lot of words per issue and a lot of stuff to consume. Not to put too fine a point on it, I read it when I'm sat on the bog and between Private Eye (bi-weekly) and my subscriptions to Custom PC and PC Pro (both monthly), I can pretty much always have something to read when I'm having a shit.

Private Eye are entirely equal opportunities when it comes to ripping things to pieces, although in terms of politics the Tories perhaps get the brunt of it at the moment as they're in power. During the Blair years Private Eye routinely went for the jugular of what was going on in government.

 

[geordiecolin]

You'll have to let us know what you think of it

There are actually a lot of words per issue and a lot of stuff to consume. Not to put too fine a point on it, I read it when I'm sat on the bog and between Private Eye (bi-weekly) and my subscriptions to Custom PC and PC Pro (both monthly), I can pretty much always have something to read when I'm having a shit.

Private Eye are entirely equal opportunities when it comes to ripping things to pieces, although in terms of politics the Tories perhaps get the brunt of it at the moment as they're in power. During the Blair years Private Eye routinely went for the jugular of what was going on in government.

I save my newspaper for the very same purpose.

Its just as well we are leaving the EU because such practices are soon to be outlawed by the EU under new health and safety laws and enforced by bog police so I'm told

 

[Slottery]

It really doesn't matter what happen, it's decided by many already that it's all EU:s fault when all the EU countries are just not happy to give UK everything they willing to ask and change agreements when they wish to. Of course EU is negotiating best interest to EU countries, dunno where these ideas are coming UK should just be allowed to write whole Brexit contract and decide rules by themselves. EU have still quite many members who best interest EU should try to secure and negotiate everything best for itself.

It's not really EU who is at the moment making things hard but other part who decided to start to play really weird games by breaking agreements etc... which why nothing really happen at the moment. It's clear already that Johnson don't really give a shite about how well UK get out of this, he knows very well that it's not EU who is unreasonable but that's something he never gonna admit.

Like posted earlier, it's gonna be at least decades that UK blames EU being unreasonable and not in good faith when they didn't give us all cherries from cake what we asked. It was well known how what things brexit for sure going to bring, they of course were not promoted as mentioning negative things before referendum is not best way to get winning result.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Conservative MP Tobias Ellwood publicly states he cannot vote for the Internal Market Bill in its current form, makes his reasons very clear.

He voted Remain but following the referendum result stated it should be respected and no attempt should be made to reverse it.

 

[mack341]

Can you find an MP who campaigned for brexit that is against this bill?

Some sensible points by Daniel Hannan, and thank goodness boris has set a deadline for middle of oct, stop this rigmarole dragging on for any longer:

 

[ChopleyIOM]

A devastating piece from Jonathan Lis.

There is a certain weapons-grade irony in that the person instigating all this chaos is, of course, the unelected bureaucrat Dominic Cummings. By all accounts he got bored of Brexit some time ago and moved onto nurturing his Dr Evil style techno-shenanigans, and only showed an interest again when he realised that the State Aid situation would screw him over on handing out lucrative contracts to his chums and companies that he has some sort of personal involvement with. (i.e. He wants to be able to throw all the money around in secret and without any public accountability, which wouldn't be allowed under the current State Aid provisions.)

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The final aggrieved party is the one discussed the least: the British electorate. This deal formed the key plank of the Conservative Party’s election platform last December and won them an 80-seat majority. You might, indeed, term it the “will of the people.” Certainly, it was the means to “get Brexit done” and sold as “oven-ready.” The bakers knew it was toxically inedible but served it up to voters anyway. Now they will break the law rather than admit the truth.

Nobody forced this deal upon the Brexiters: not Theresa May, not Remainers, and not Brussels. Johnson’s government negotiated it, praised it, signed it and now owns it. The intrusion of reality, and desperate need to conceal it, is the story of Brexit. But the government’s newest and deepest breach of trust betrays something even more damaging. It is not just that the government has been lying to people with impunity for the last year, and for the three years before that. It is not even that people are being newly criminalised for gathering in parks at the same moment the government breaks any law it chooses. This is now a rogue government. It has lost its legitimacy. It no longer acknowledges limits or restraint. It will do whatever it likes, to whomever it likes, and believes nothing can stop it.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Can you find an MP who campaigned for brexit that is against this bill?

Some sensible points by Daniel Hannan, and thank goodness boris has set a deadline for middle of oct, stop this rigmarole dragging on for any longer:

This is literally, patently, and completely untrue. There is no promise of a trade deal in the WA, there never was, the only person who promised one was Boris Johnson when he lied his arse off about the thing to win an election.

I can understand Brexiteers such as Hannan wishing to attempt to rewrite history, since what is happening now is so far removed from what was promised - but a lie is still a lie.

 

[mack341]

A devastating piece from Jonathan Lis.

There is a certain weapons-grade irony in that the person instigating all this chaos is, of course, the unelected bureaucrat Dominic Cummings. By all accounts he got bored of Brexit some time ago and moved onto nurturing his Dr Evil style techno-shenanigans, and only showed an interest again when he realised that the State Aid situation would screw him over on handing out lucrative contracts to his chums and companies that he has some sort of personal involvement with. (i.e. He wants to be able to throw all the money around in secret and without any public accountability, which wouldn't be allowed under the current State Aid provisions.)

-----------------

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The final aggrieved party is the one discussed the least: the British electorate. This deal formed the key plank of the Conservative Party’s election platform last December and won them an 80-seat majority. You might, indeed, term it the “will of the people.” Certainly, it was the means to “get Brexit done” and sold as “oven-ready.” The bakers knew it was toxically inedible but served it up to voters anyway. Now they will break the law rather than admit the truth.

Nobody forced this deal upon the Brexiters: not Theresa May, not Remainers, and not Brussels. Johnson’s government negotiated it, praised it, signed it and now owns it. The intrusion of reality, and desperate need to conceal it, is the story of Brexit. But the government’s newest and deepest breach of trust betrays something even more damaging. It is not just that the government has been lying to people with impunity for the last year, and for the three years before that. It is not even that people are being newly criminalised for gathering in parks at the same moment the government breaks any law it chooses. This is now a rogue government. It has lost its legitimacy. It no longer acknowledges limits or restraint. It will do whatever it likes, to whomever it likes, and believes nothing can stop it.

Does cummings look like the kind of guy overly interested in the trappings of wealth, what is the proof of this narrative it's all an elaborate scheme to make himself and friends rich off the back of the taxpayer?

According to this article below, cummings is interested in setting up a uk equivalent of ARPA - Advanced Research Projects Agency - [ Now called darpa in the US ] Sounds like a good idea to me seeing as technology is crucial to the economy:

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He draws a few distinct lessons from ARPA’s history. The first is about the value of high-risk research. Cummings argues that even though many of ARPA’s projects failed, the “trillions of dollars of value” its successes created justify the investment. The second is about how to organise very high performing teams. Cummings sees ARPA’s success in this period as a result of its approach – low bureaucracy, high trust – and the management style of leaders like Licklider, who brought in “great people” and gave them a lot of leeway, while making sure they also connected with one another. It was its way of working, Cummings argues, that made 1960s ARPA an “extreme outlier” in performance.

He sees ARPA as a key part of a post-Brexit strategy for the UK, making it “the best place in the world to invent the future”.

Cummings is also vocal about his frustrations with the civil service and argues that the government could perform much better by cutting bureaucracy and hiring very talented people.

 

[mack341]

This is literally, patently, and completely untrue. There is no promise of a trade deal in the WA, there never was, the only person who promised one was Boris Johnson when he lied his arse off about the thing to win an election.

I can understand Brexiteers such as Hannan wishing to attempt to rewrite history, since what is happening now is so far removed from what was promised - but a lie is still a lie.

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He says 'accompanied' perhaps he doesn't mean it was written in the actual text eg. 'we promise there will be a trade deal' but I'll have to go and look it up more now...