Brexit - whats the difference.....

[Kroffe]

It shouldn't really need pointing out TBH but there is the slight issue of geography when it comes to Canada and Japan getting a different trade deal to that being offered to the UK, namely that the UK is literally just a few miles away from the EU, on a ferry or through a tunnel, whereas both Canada and Japan are thousands of miles away.

Add in the fact that we're still being arsey about signing up to Level Playing Field provisions and it's pretty easy to see why the EU aren't falling over themselves to open up the floodgates to a load of cheap stuff coming across the channel from a third country, which is what the UK will be at that point.

(Also there's the fact that by all accounts our Customs infrastructure is nowhere near going to be ready for Jan 2021, plus we're basically just going to wave everything in to keep goods flowing into the UK, which will turn us into a smuggler's paradise, hence another reason the EU are being very wary.)

It's yet another example of Leaver Victimhood Syndrome, the EU are punishing us by not giving us what we want, why can't we have what they have over there?

The EU only ever said that the UK would be in 'Canada Style' deal territory after the UK drew all its red lines, not that it would get the exact same deal as Canada. This was pointed out time and time again, years ago, but of course it was just dismissed as Project Fear and German Car Manufacturers and they need us more than we need them etc etc.

Its almost like UK wants the perks of being in the EU, without having to abide by any of the rules.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Also, in other news.

Yes Covid has had an impact and continues to do so, but Brexit really is pouring petrol onto a bonfire. (Although ironically, petrol is one of the things we might be a short of.)

Note that this is a leaked UK Government paper, this is straight from the heart of government looking at how fucked up things might get as we move into 2021.

(Can I just play Leaver Buzzword Bingo and get something in here about the Remainer Civil Service.)

This is all fine and people totally understood that this is exactly what they were voting for.

And who's going to get hit hardest, those who already have least. Rich fuckers like Johnson and his cronies will be absolutely fine.

 

[dunover]

Also, in other news.

Yes Covid has had an impact and continues to do so, but Brexit really is pouring petrol onto a bonfire. (Although ironically, petrol is one of the things we might be a short of.)

Note that this is a leaked UK Government paper, this is straight from the heart of government looking at how fucked up things might get as we move into 2021.

(Can I just play Leaver Buzzword Bingo and get something in here about the Remainer Civil Service.)

This is all fine and people totally understood that this is exactly what they were voting for.

And who's going to get hit hardest, those who already have least. Rich fuckers like Johnson and his cronies will be absolutely fine.

View attachment 139753
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So you reckon we might yet after all have no pigs-in-blankets this Christmas?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I'm sure there will be, for those with the cash to weather out the storm.

 

[mack341]

It shouldn't really need pointing out TBH but there is the slight issue of geography when it comes to Canada and Japan getting a different trade deal to that being offered to the UK, namely that the UK is literally just a few miles away from the EU, on a ferry or through a tunnel, whereas both Canada and Japan are thousands of miles away.

Add in the fact that we're still being arsey about signing up to Level Playing Field provisions and it's pretty easy to see why the EU aren't falling over themselves to open up the floodgates to a load of cheap stuff coming across the channel from a third country, which is what the UK will be at that point.

(Also there's the fact that by all accounts our Customs infrastructure is nowhere near going to be ready for Jan 2021, plus we're basically just going to wave everything in to keep goods flowing into the UK, which will turn us into a smuggler's paradise, hence another reason the EU are being very wary.)

It's yet another example of Leaver Victimhood Syndrome, the EU are punishing us by not giving us what we want, why can't we have what they have over there?

The EU only ever said that the UK would be in 'Canada Style' deal territory after the UK drew all its red lines, not that it would get the exact same deal as Canada. This was pointed out time and time again, years ago, but of course it was just dismissed as Project Fear and German Car Manufacturers and they need us more than we need them etc etc.

That was a reply and questions to datch, funny how often that happens on this forum people answering my posts on behalf of others, but they never answer posts on behalf of me to others hmmm.

I don't mind debate from any direction, and I've probably done it myself a few times, but sometimes it does mean the thread is lost.

[and not all questions are replied to, e.g. what sovereignty have japan and canada given to the EU and vice versa? maybe no one knows but datch did say it was part of all trade deals. I am always open to being convinced on a point and other people have knowledge of things I don't, read and have access to different sources of news etc... ]

Because it was part of a logical debate in relation to previous posts; I said I favour a no-deal compared to a theresa may style deal, so this leaver victimhood syndrome you talk about is not really a label you should be applying in my direction. And I think there could be a bit of projection going on here, the victimhood mentality resides in remainers.

 

[Mr_Slot5]

@mack341 spot on mate, no deal would suit me fine...this applies to a lot of leavers too from what I've read. As you say, a lot of it is projection by remainers who are desperately trying to paint no deal as a catastrophe and that somehow leavers are lamenting the possibility.

As far as I was concerned back in 2016, a clean break from the EU is what we voted for?? It certainly wasn't a half in, half out balls up scenario.

 

[goatwack]

@mack341 spot on mate, no deal would suit me fine...this applies to a lot of leavers too from what I've read. As you say, a lot of it is projection by remainers who are desperately trying to paint no deal as a catastrophe and that somehow leavers are lamenting the possibility.

As far as I was concerned back in 2016, a clean break from the EU is what we voted for?? It certainly wasn't a half in, half out balls up scenario.

Reported for being a selfish Bracist thicko

 

[vorcirion]

@mack341 spot on mate, no deal would suit me fine...this applies to a lot of leavers too from what I've read. As you say, a lot of it is projection by remainers who are desperately trying to paint no deal as a catastrophe and that somehow leavers are lamenting the possibility.

As far as I was concerned back in 2016, a clean break from the EU is what we voted for?? It certainly wasn't a half in, half out balls up scenario.

Great. Bye!
Now EU can focus on more important things

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Great. Bye!
Now EU can focus on more important things

I have no ill feeling towards the EU nor its member states and hope that it can continue to do the best by the countries it has under its umbrella Every other European country will still be a friend of the UK.

 

[vorcirion]

I have no ill feeling towards the EU nor its member states and hope that it can continue to do the best by the countries it has under its umbrella Every other European country will still be a friend of the UK.

Sure and UK can always come back to the EU I'm sure. But in the meanwhile EU should use all the leverage it can to get the most favorable trade deal for the EU with the UK. Gonna need some extra cash to deal with problems inside the EU.

 

[datch]

I can sign Chopleys answer, but I wouldn't be able to formulate it that nice as English is not even my second language.

"Giving up sovereignty" was meant in a more general sense. Both sides set (negotiate) rules that both sides have to adhere to, which means a loss of sovereignty (standards for food or factory farming, etc).
To do this, you have to be ready to step back from your "red lines" or to change them. The UK-"negotiation" - team around Frost doesn't seem to want to move an inch in the negotiations. Out of the abstract fear of losing sovereignty, the uk-team wants to dictate and not negotiate.
That is excactly not how negotiations of trade deals work (at least if a party is in a weak position like the UK).
Hope I didn't create more confusion now

 

[ChopleyIOM]

sink them

 

[ChopleyIOM]

@mack341 spot on mate, no deal would suit me fine...this applies to a lot of leavers too from what I've read. As you say, a lot of it is projection by remainers who are desperately trying to paint no deal as a catastrophe and that somehow leavers are lamenting the possibility.

As far as I was concerned back in 2016, a clean break from the EU is what we voted for?? It certainly wasn't a half in, half out balls up scenario.

Well you're in the minority, because only 35% of Leave voters thought the UK would leave the Single Market at the time of the referendum, let alone end up leaving with No Deal.

I think there's a bit of revisionism going on in some camps. 'Ahhhhh yes this is exactly what I voted for. Even though absolutely no one was talking about us ever ending up in this position in the lead up to the referendum, I however could clearly see that not only was this situation a distinct possibility, it is indeed desirable'.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

In fact, let's refresh our memories a little bit. Because it seems to me that pretty much literally no one who was prominent in the Leave campaign was saying anything other than how easy Brexit would be, what a great deal we'd get, and everything would get better.

These are just a small sample. So the narrative now is, that folks heard what all these people were saying and concluded, 'They're all wrong, I'm voting Leave because I think No Deal is not only possible, but also desirable and I am voting on that basis'.

 

[mack341]

No one who has an inkling about the EU ever thought it would be easy to get a trade deal, the ball is in the EU's court, are they interested in free trade with one of their biggest export markets [by € ]or not.

They've created such a huge system of rules and laws [red tape] that they then have a problem 'how do we trade with countries outside of our red tape'

Is the uk better off trading under world trade rules [with tariffs] than accepting too much future 'rule making' by the EU, that's the question I think.

I'm sure there is a compromise somewhere, perhaps the EU need to be a bit less paranoid?

 

[vorcirion]

No one who has an inkling about the EU ever thought it would be easy to get a trade deal, the ball is in the EU's court, are they interested in free trade with one of their biggest export markets [by € ]or not.

They've created such a huge system of rules and laws [red tape] that they then have a problem 'how do we trade with countries outside of our red tape'

Is the uk better off trading under world trade rules [with tariffs] than accepting too much future 'rule making' by the EU, that's the question I think.

I'm sure there is a compromise somewhere, perhaps the EU need to be a bit less paranoid?

paranoid about what exactly?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

No one who has an inkling about the EU ever thought it would be easy to get a trade deal, the ball is in the EU's court, are they interested in free trade with one of their biggest export markets [by € ]or not.

They've created such a huge system of rules and laws [red tape] that they then have a problem 'how do we trade with countries outside of our red tape'

Is the uk better off trading under world trade rules [with tariffs] than accepting too much future 'rule making' by the EU, that's the question I think.

I'm sure there is a compromise somewhere, perhaps the EU need to be a bit less paranoid?

Why is the ball in the EU's court? They laid out a negotiating position years ago, and told the UK what would and wouldn't be available to us as a third country, and clarified further around the red lines that were drawn by the UK.

They've stuck to that negotiating position throughout, it's the UK that's throwing a strop about not being able to cherry pick the bits of being in the EU it likes whilst refusing to sign up to the responsibilities that come with the good stuff.

Also, implicit in your post there mack is that you knew full well that every single prominent Leaver was either knowingly lying their arses off or didn't have the first earthly clue what they were talking about. Not exactly a shining endorsement of the campaign.

Did you communicate that to people at the time, like, your mate Fred from down the road who was going to vote Leave? So when Fred was talking to you about how he was going to vote Leave because we'd get a great trade deal and be better off, you corrected him and were like, 'Well actually Fred, it's going to be incredibly difficult to get a good trade deal with the EU, even one that leaves us in roughly the same position as we are now. You don't want to believe anything that the Leave campaign is saying to you because it's all bollocks'.

 

[mack341]

paranoid about what exactly?

Paranoid about other countries leaving, about losing the power/control they've obtained and their superstate project, or the UK doing comparatively better outside their rules etc...

They are some of the things that come to mind; if you have a mentality/system that is all about control, then you fear any challenge or change to that.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Paranoid about other countries leaving, about losing the power/control they've obtained and their superstate project, or the UK doing better comparatively outside their rules etc...

They are some of the things that come to mind; if you have a mentality/system that is all about control, then you fear any challenge or change to that.

If you look at the opinion polls from other EU countries, their populations are now more pro-EU than they were at the time the UK voted to leave in 2016. The shift isn't massive, but it is there. The notion that Brexit would precipitate the collapse of the EU was a fallacy in 2016, and it's a fallacy now.

Other EU countries have, in essence, looked at the utter shitshow we've foisted upon ourselves and said, 'Yeah, on balance, whilst the EU isn't perfect, it's certainly a lot better than what the UK is doing.'

 

[vorcirion]

Paranoid about other countries leaving, about losing the power/control they've obtained and their superstate project, or the UK doing better comparatively outside their rules etc...

They are some of the things that come to mind; if you have a mentality/system that is all about control, then you fear any challenge or change to that.

Oh that sounds like there are some outside forces that's controlling all these countries
You know these EU countries stay together 'cause they want to. Any one of them can leave just like UK did if they wanted to.

 

[mack341]

Why is the ball in the EU's court? They laid out a negotiating position years ago, and told the UK what would and wouldn't be available to us as a third country, and clarified further around the red lines that were drawn by the UK.

They've stuck to that negotiating position throughout, it's the UK that's throwing a strop about not being able to cherry pick the bits of being in the EU it likes whilst refusing to sign up to the responsibilities that come with the good stuff.

Also, implicit in your post there mack is that you knew full well that every single prominent Leaver was either knowingly lying their arses off or didn't have the first earthly clue what they were talking about. Not exactly a shining endorsement of the campaign.

Did you communicate that to people at the time, like, your mate Fred from down the road who was going to vote Leave? So when Fred was talking to you about how he was going to vote Leave because we'd get a great trade deal and be better off, you corrected him and were like, 'Well actually Fred, it's going to be incredibly difficult to get a good trade deal with the EU, even one that leaves us in roughly the same position as we are now. You don't want to believe anything that the Leave campaign is saying to you because it's all bollocks'.

Chop Life is a bit more complicated and nuanced than that as you well know following current affairs and politics. I also knew the politicians from the remain side were also lying and using fear to get people to vote their way. [edit: exaggerating is probably the better term for both sides]

Well if the EU want to shoot themselves and us in the foot, it's up to them; their negotiating red lines leaves us in a position of having hardly left, we'll still have to follow their rules [new and old] etc...

I am expecting some sort of UK compromise simply because of the establishment are mainly remainers, and they get what they want, we will have the appearance of brexit though.

The fact david frost is solidly sticking to his guns has surprised me a bit, as it's totally different to the way negotiations were handled before, however I struggle to believe it's about haulage rules or other side issues, even fishing as we hardly have any fishermen left to fish our waters.

After reading these two articles/blogs below, I tend to think it's more likely about financial services and the city of london, and who will make their rules, the UK or the EU.

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[mack341]

Oh that sounds like there are some outside forces that's controlling all these countries
You know these EU countries stay together 'cause they want to. Any one of them can leave just like UK did if they wanted to.

I think things are different on the continent, but there are still plenty of eurosceptics, and it's growing amongst the left too. eg. they weren't happy with the TTIP. Let's wait and see once the EU tables more of it's plans and objectives how people react, they have a new president now who will have her goals.

 

[vorcirion]

I think things are different on the continent, but there are still plenty of eurosceptics, and it's growing amongst the left too. eg. they weren't happy with the TTIP. Let's wait and see once the EU tables more of it's plans and objectives how people react, they have a new president now who will have her goals.

I'm pretty sure that the population knows nothing about some TTIP. And UK is giving a great example how you can screw things up with Brexit and whatnot. I don't think other countries want to go that route any time soon...so I guess I should thank you brexiteers?

 

[mack341]

I'm pretty sure that the population knows nothing about some TTIP. And UK is giving a great example how you can screw things up with Brexit and whatnot. I don't think other countries want to go that route any time soon...so I guess I should thank you brexiteers?

Thank goodness Trump torpedoed it:

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Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) today voted to pass a resolution on the secretly negotiated EU-US trade deal, the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP).

The vote, which passed by 436 to 241, highlighted serious splits in the European Parliament (EP) on the issue, especially among the Socialist and Democrat (S&D) bloc which includes Labour MEPs.

There was uproar from some MEPs in today's vote, including among members of EP president Martin Schulz's own S&D bloc, at what they perceived to be manipulation of voting procedures to ensure no anti-'ISDS' (investor-state dispute settlement) amendment would be voted on.

The vote took place at the second time of asking: it was originally scheduled to take place in June, but was controversially postponed at the last minute at the request of Schulz, due to fears that the vote would be lost.

War on Want Executive Director John Hilary said: “More than 2.3 million people across Europe are calling for an end to TTIP negotiations in the biggest trade campaign we've seen to date. Yet MEPs have chosen to ignore the wishes of their own constituents, siding instead with the business lobby against the people of Europe.

“TTIP offers a nightmare vision of a world sold into corporate slavery. If our elected representatives betray us by backing this vision, we will have no choice but to escalate the campaign.”

Ahead of the vote, there was political wrangling and deal-making over one of the most controversial elements of the deal, the corporate court system of ISDS which allows business to sue states for policies threatening future profits.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well if the EU want to shoot themselves and us in the foot, it's up to them; their negotiating red lines leaves us in a position of having hardly left, we'll still have to follow their rules [new and old] etc...

I am expecting some sort of UK compromise simply because of the establishment are mainly remainers, and they get what they want, we will have the appearance of brexit though.

So hang on a minute, is No Deal Brexit something to fear or not? Because on the one hand you're saying that the EU has the ability to 'shoot us in the foot' but on the other hand No Deal is nothing to be fearful of because we're better off with a clean break and can get on with being buccaneering Britain again. (And indeed Mr Slot asserts that's actively what he voted for, to be 'shot in the foot', apparently.)

The EU's negotiating 'red lines' are simply the rules of the club, I don't know how many times I can possibly explain this, or rearrange the words into a different order, but the rules have always been crystal clear, and were clearly explained many years ago, there's the well known graphic that shows how the UK basically ruled everything out with its actual red lines, that under EU rules left it getting a Canada STYLE deal, (not the exact same deal as Canada, as already covered).

I mean, wasn't one of the main points of Brexit to ESCAPE FROM THE RULES OF BRUSSELS? So we can hardly call foul when we leave the EU and then, as a third country, the EU erm, apply those rules to us based on what level of level of access we wish to retain. (Which we absolutely are doing, witness the issues around hauliers' rights that cropped up last week.)

This all comes full circle back to how Brexit works as a slogan, but it doesn't work in reality, and the second any sort of scrutiny is applied to it, the only comeback from Leavers is that it's still the EU's fault.

On that point, I note how you're already setting up the 'betrayal narrative' so that if the UK should compromise to get a deal, then Brexit will have been betrayed, because it's not 'proper' Brexit.

But then, what is 'proper' Brexit, the one that shoots us in the foot? (Your words, not mine! )

 

[mack341]

So hang on a minute, is No Deal Brexit something to fear or not? Because on the one hand you're saying that the EU has the ability to 'shoot us in the foot' but on the other hand No Deal is nothing to be fearful of because we're better off with a clean break and can get on with being buccaneering Britain again. (And indeed Mr Slot asserts that's actively what he voted for, to be 'shot in the foot', apparently.)

just digesting the rest of your post chop, but to answer this quickly, free trade is probably better than having tariffs where this extra cost could ultimately passed onto the consumer, but it seems the EU is requiring a bit too much in exchange for free trade [which would benefit both sides, probably more the EU as the uk has a 100bn goods deficit iirc]

As Mr frost has pointed out we want the same kind of trade deal any sovereign nation would want with another nation [and gets in the case of japan and canada it seems]

Excuse the pun but it's a trade off between the advantages and disadvantages of leaving not judged by tomorrow or next week but years and decades, and not just going by the retail prices on an imported EU product.

If things were so doom and gloom for the uk's prospects after brexit compared to the continent, why would so many EU citizens be seeking permanent residency?

edit: shooting in the foot was just the phrase I used, mr slot5 may not agree at all, but I'm sure it wasn't done to try to create a bit of argy bargy/wedge between leave voters

 

[mack341]

The EU's negotiating 'red lines' are simply the rules of the club, I don't know how many times I can possibly explain this, or rearrange the words into a different order, but the rules have always been crystal clear, and were clearly explained many years ago, there's the well known graphic that shows how the UK basically ruled everything out with its actual red lines, that under EU rules left it getting a Canada STYLE deal, (not the exact same deal as Canada, as already covered).

I mean, wasn't one of the main points of Brexit to ESCAPE FROM THE RULES OF BRUSSELS? So we can hardly call foul when we leave the EU and then, as a third country, the EU erm, apply those rules to us based on what level of level of access we wish to retain. (Which we absolutely are doing, witness the issues around hauliers' rights that cropped up last week.)

This all comes full circle back to how Brexit works as a slogan, but it doesn't work in reality, and the second any sort of scrutiny is applied to it, the only comeback from Leavers is that it's still the EU's fault.

On that point, I note how you're already setting up the 'betrayal narrative' so that if the UK should compromise to get a deal, then Brexit will have been betrayed, because it's not 'proper' Brexit.

But then, what is 'proper' Brexit, the one that shoots us in the foot? (Your words, not mine! )

A lot of this rules of the club stuff appeals to remainers like theresa may etc..she wanted us to still be in the EU club and supported remain in the referendum, then she got the gig to carry out the brexit negotiations.

I think most of the leave voting public thought we'd leave shortly after the vote not 4 dragged-out years later.

Isn't it just the newspapers/bbc calling foul regarding these rules and the EU wanting to stick to them, that and the collective remainer angst still featuring heavily on the web [twitter and reddit etc..]?
To leave voters the EU/barnier are acting to form, not surprising anyone.

I am pleased that Frost seems to be a tough negotiator, but I won't be surprised however if concessions and compromises are made at the 11th hour, things that could water down brexit and still keep us close to the EU and it's laws.

That is not about me getting a betrayal narrative ready, but living with the reality the uk govt [the civil service/actual permanent govt] didn't want brexit in the first place, and they have a say in things as advisers to the politicians.

[How many times have people in the uk voted for something and then the politicians actually delivered on their promises it's not often I feel.]

A proper brexit is based around reclaiming sovereignty, so that our parliament [answerable to us the voters] decides our laws. [edit: and policies]

 

[ChopleyIOM]

A proper brexit is based around reclaiming sovereignty, so that our parliament [answerable to us the voters] decides our laws.

Seems like an awful lot of pain and effort for the 0.21% of EU laws that were enacted during our membership that we actually objected to. (72 out of 34,105.)

 

[mack341]

not forgetting this quote from Barnier:

“I’ll have done my job if, in the end, the deal is so tough on the British that they’d prefer to stay in the EU”.

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"He is reported in the French current affairs weekly Le Point as having spoken those words to EU leaders in 2016. The article adds that most of the leaders shared his view, as well as that of Jean-Claude Juncker, who said that Brexit must be a form of “punishment” for deserters.

There is no reason to doubt the authenticity of the quotation. It accords with everything the EU has said and done since the referendum result was announced. Brussels negotiators have dragged their feet over the smallest things, while all the time publicly telling us that “the clock is ticking”. They have made a series of demands that they know to be outrageous, and that they would never dream of making of any other country, including a period of non-voting membership, the regulatory annexation of Northern Ireland and EU control of our trade policy after we leave.

In the debilitating culture war that followed the referendum, plenty of British politicians and commentators were determined to side with Brussels, however unreasonable its demands. Although many Remainers accepted the referendum result in good faith, some Europhile peers, MPs and businessmen were determined to overturn it. They therefore lined up behind even the most preposterous EU positions, because they shared the goal of making Brexit so painful that Britain would drop the whole idea.

They didn’t put it that way, of course, at least not in public. Instead, they would typically say things like, “The EU has to follow its own rules, you can’t enjoy the privileges of the club without being a member, what else did you Eurosceptics expect?”

.... Sadly, our negotiators never faced up to the fact that Brussels did not want a mutually beneficial deal. Eurocrats could hardly have been clearer. Theresa May kept saying she wanted the EU to succeed; her EU counterparts kept responding that they wanted Brexit to fail.

 

[Sidmanaman73]

I didn't realise we had negotiators. Oven ready Brexit we were told, should be a piece of piss in the working man's parlance. Sadly under stated consequences and horribly under prepared for what is effectively telling our neighbours to go do one. Don't expect the Calais to Dover boat race to be ending any time soon now we've withdrawn from the Dublin Regulation. Something else I had little to no idea about until starting to read these forums (been quite educational all told)

 

[paul7388]

Personally i would have remained in EU.

Yes things might be tough for a few years but i think you are really over dramatising things Chopley.

Plenty of countries survive fine without being in EU.

It is now up to this country what they make of it all and how they advance. Yes there might be No Deals at the moment. But sorry i do not think it will be all doom and gloom for ever. Simple fact that you do not seem to want to grasp is that in the End deals will be done.

Sorry but if you have a product that some other country wants or you want to buy from countries then they will deal. German Car manafacturers are not going to go we won't deal with UK as they walked out on us. Countries are not going to suddenly go we won't deal with UK and we no longer want their whisky.

Simple fact is we import a lot and export a lot. The products are wanted and needed so deals will eventually be done.

So many EU countries depend on the income from British tourists as this virus has shown. Anything that would affect that will have those countries wanting to get a deal in the end.

 

[Playford7]

;-)

 

[goatwack]

Looks like Brexit's taken a turn for the worse much quicker than I'd ever anticipated.

Without the E.U's protection I find the United Nations straight on my case, perhaps to send the frighteners up me in this lawless new world order I'm about to embrace? They are from the IAMCID, let's not forget.

Here's Cartman's mom of all people, haranguing me for 150 Dollars, and it's not even December. I mean give a guy a chance ffs

What do I do guys?

 

[dionysus]

Looks like Brexit's taken a turn for the worse much quicker than I'd ever anticipated.

Without the E.U's protection I find the United Nations straight on my case, perhaps to send the frighteners up me in this lawless new world order I'm about to embrace? They are from the IAMCID, let's not forget.

Here's Cartman's mom of all people, haranguing me for 150 Dollars, and it's not even December. I mean give a guy a chance ffs

What do I do guys?

View attachment 139984

looks legit

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Personally i would have remained in EU.

Yes things might be tough for a few years but i think you are really over dramatising things Chopley.

It's hard to know how to reply to that paul because you're arguing points that no one has actually made, least of all myself.

I'll go point by point.

<<<< Plenty of countries survive fine without being in EU. >>>>

Yes, they do, no one has ever claimed otherwise. What other countries have not done is removed themselves from the EU without any sort of plan, following decades of close integration, without any real thought as to how to manage the switchover and/or mitigate the damage.

<<<<It is now up to this country what they make of it all and how they advance. Yes there might be No Deals at the moment. But sorry i do not think it will be all doom and gloom for ever. Simple fact that you do not seem to want to grasp is that in the End deals will be done.>>>>

Putting aside the fact that No Deal was explicitly ruled out by, erm, everyone in the Leave campaign in the run up to the referendum. Of course deals will be done eventually, they have to be, by definition, since we are going to carry on trading with the EU following the end of transition. How shitty, expensive, and nightmarishly bureaucratic those deals will be compared to what we have now is a different matter.

<<<<Sorry but if you have a product that some other country wants or you want to buy from countries then they will deal. German Car manafacturers are not going to go we won't deal with UK as they walked out on us. Countries are not going to suddenly go we won't deal with UK and we no longer want their whisky.>>>>

Again, no one has ever said that you won't be able to walk into a local Audi dealer and buy the new A4 in a post-Brexit world. Although relatively speaking it'll cost a lot more thanks to the pound getting fucked.

It's far more complex than 'we will still buy their cars' and 'they will still want our whiskey', and with the greatest of respect it's that sort of massively simplified view of the complexities of international trade that's part of why we've ended up where we have.

<<<<Simple fact is we import a lot and export a lot. The products are wanted and needed so deals will eventually be done.>>>>

Yes, they will, eventually. But they will be shit deals and far worse than what we had as a member of the EU, and an awful lot of UK companies are going to go under as a result.

The 'WTO Deal' that many folks seem so keen on would be ruinous for many UK industries. Moreover, the 'WTO Deal' basically involves following a load of rules decided on by unelected bureaucrats in far off lands so woohoo for that I suppose.

<<<<So many EU countries depend on the income from British tourists as this virus has shown. Anything that would affect that will have those countries wanting to get a deal in the end.>>>>

That is literally just 'BUT GERMAN CAR MANUFACTURERS' with the words changed. In the same way BMW don't get to decide to EU trade and negotiation policy, neither does the Costa Del Sol.

 

[Sidmanaman73]

Looks like Brexit's taken a turn for the worse much quicker than I'd ever anticipated.

Without the E.U's protection I find the United Nations straight on my case, perhaps to send the frighteners up me in this lawless new world order I'm about to embrace? They are from the IAMCID, let's not forget.

Here's Cartman's mom of all people, haranguing me for 150 Dollars, and it's not even December. I mean give a guy a chance ffs

What do I do guys?

View attachment 139984

You can trust Cartman's mom. It was Kyle's mom who was a bitch...

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well known left-wing Remoaner agitator rag the, erm, oh, The Grocer - the industry publication for the food retail industry, warns that the UK Government is replacing perceived unaccountable control from Brussels with even more secrecy and coercion from...... The UK Government.

Damning indictment from what is generally speaking a very tame publication.

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[mack341]

parliament is back on the 1st sept I think, so hopefully the mp's from both sides can start to examine govt policies. It is a slight problem that some [mainly labour and liberals/snp] will still probably want to argue from the perspective of revisiting the issue of remain/leave, while they have that as their goal [reversing brexit] they will not be able to scrutinise the govt's current actions/ideas effectively.

As deep down they don't care about getting the right procedures in place after brexit, just interested in going back into the EU.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

TBH mack I don't think anyone's fighting that battle now, I was keeping an eye on the Lib Dem leadership campaign and neither candidate went anywhere near anything remotely resembling a 'reversing Brexit' agenda and indeed both openly acknowledged that their position at the last general election totally fucked them.

As for Labour, Starmer has kept pretty well clear of the whole topic, his personal preference was to Remain of course but everyone's accepted the reality of the situation, the UK has left the EU, if we're ever to rejoin we're talking 10-15+ years down the line, no one's going to want to die on the hill of trying to reverse Brexit for a long time.

I fully accept it, we've left, transition is coming to an end, it'll be a shitshow, but that's where we are.

There are no significant noises coming from either Labour or the Lib Dems around anything other than making the best of a bad job.

In fairness I don't fully see how you've managed to go from the article I linked in The Grocer to 'it's going to be the Remainers' fault once parliament reconvenes'!

Also, you do know that in the last parliament the government passed legislation to actually limit the ability of parliament to debate and scrutinise what it does next? British democracy in action.......

 

[mack341]

In fairness I don't fully see how you've managed to go from the article I linked in The Grocer to 'it's going to be the Remainers' fault once parliament reconvenes'!

Also, you do know that in the last parliament the government passed legislation to actually limit the ability of parliament to debate and scrutinise what it does next? British democracy in action.......

well in so much as the grocery article was saying scrutiny was required, I just don't think you can scrutinise brexit policy/unaccountable govt etc properly if your real intention/ motivation is to argue let's not bother with brexit. The base point from which they will argue is 'well the arrangement we had with the EU was better than this'

The lid dems/labour/snp might not make public announcements now about reversing brexit, but I'm not convinced they've got it out of their systems yet after 3 years of bitter debating. Do they really want to make a success out of brexit is another way of looking at it hmmm not sure about that.

As I was saying a year back or so, if the EU come up with a brilliant idea/policy there is nothing stopping us from adopting it ourselves.

No I did not know that about the legislation, missed the bbc highlighting it too, we rely on the media to do a neutral [as far as possible] job of reporting these things so there can be a debate, time and again they're too selective.

 

[thr0b]

We'll be back in the EU within a decade or so. Any sensible realist can see that.

Right now, the Labour and Lib Dem parties are just letting the Tories own the clusterfuck they created. No point in arguing when it's already happened and the consequences are yet to follow. It's too early in a fixed-term parliament to expect the opposition to win any votes from Tories, especially when Dominic will happily sack any dissenters.

The SNP will happily do the opposition to the Brexit debacle simply as they are a pro-EU party from a pro-EU country.

 

[mack341]

well that is another way of putting it, how are they going to be able to scrutinise the govt's brexit policy constructively, if they simply see brexit as a cluster**** that the tories have to own. [And they shouldn't forget the millions of working class labour voters who also voted to leave the EU] The two modes of thought are incompatible.

 

[thr0b]

Not really - right now, they can't win any votes. The Tories won't vote in significant numbers against their own party, so it's all on them.

Fixed term parliaments - something that should never have been agreed. It was always a power grab, and voting for it was nonsensical.

 

[mack341]

I agree the fixed term act should be repealed, it's a load of BS, every govt already had the option of sitting out their full term, the act just got rid of the flexibility in the system.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Not really - right now, they can't win any votes. The Tories won't vote in significant numbers against their own party, so it's all on them.

As per the famous Napoleon quote - 'Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake'

You're quite right dan, there are no votes in Brexit right now, it's the ultimate poisoned chalice, and the Tories will have nowhere to hide and no one else to blame, this is entirely their clusterfuck.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

And indeed, on that note.....

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Refusing to extend the transition period was a huge tactical error on Johnson’s part, which will become obvious as the clock ticks down to the end of the transition period. With just days left to get the principles of a future trade deal agreed, Johnson has boxed himself in once more and has just one option – to accept a thin, highly asymmetric deal tilted in the EU’s favour.

No other outcome is now possible.

Despite all the threats of leaving without a deal, Johnson knows coronavirus has made what was always an unlikely outcome, an inconceivable one. British businesses, woefully unprepared for a no deal Brexit and already reeling from the economic impact of Covid-19, will suffer a second body blow when furloughing support comes to an end in October. A third, self-inflicted one would be political suicide.

Bloomberg reports that companies not only lack the cash to stockpile for a no deal Brexit, but are “unwilling to pay further Brexit-related costs on top of those already incurred preparing for previous deadlines”.

And the government itself is struggling to get the necessary infrastructure and IT systems ready in time. Amazingly, the Goods Vehicle Movement Service required to avoid massive queues at the Channel Ports is still in the research phase, with fewer than 90 working days to go.

 

[goatwack]

Yes it is late in the day, but ultimately this is what tough negotiations amount to, the aim being that both/ all parties leave having secured a beneficial outcome on their end!

As it stands it's become a game of 'who blinks first', because presently this messy divorce leads to the EU getting the house, car & garden with the pond in it that has all the fish, the latter being the main bone of contention.

So a fairly non-beneficial outcome for the UK I'd say, with the alternative being a No Deal looming, the kind where you get to return to the drawing board and set your own autonomy without being hen-pecked into accepting a dud deal.

And businesses have been woefully ill-prepared for a No Deal, well we've only had the four years to acclimatize to that scenario, albeit not 'officially' until we Brexited.

Are we to assume no pre-deals were put in place, anywhere? Or verbal agreements made? Hmmm

So whilst the current standoff does indeed look fishy, it just smacks of more post-Brexit Brexiteer- bashing.

Is Bojo out of his depth? Probably, but he was the choice presented to us, Labour and Lib Dims don't count

Are Brexiteers racist uninformed pigheaded bigots, based on one Referendum? Undoubtedly, we'd established that one yonks ago (not to mention being on the wrong side of history)

Will Britain cease to be, and will its people end up foraging for food in its once green lands whilst typhoid-ridden and feral? Yep

Seemingly then the art of negotiating is to cave in to the demands of the person you're negotiating with, this makes one a bad negotiator. Chances are both will reach a compromise or just as likely we'll have a No Deal! Because ultimately that's the risk you take

 

[ChopleyIOM]

It's all so shit and messy, with no apparent upsides, and indeed with the UK now scrabbling to get into a position that even remotely resembles one as beneficial as being an EU member, that one almost wonders, dare I say it, why we're even bothering at all.

Oh yes I remember, it's sovereignty, so that we can revoke the 0.21% of EU laws that were foisted upon us against our will during the entire period of our membership of the EU. (I note the economic argument has dropped off the radar completely now, since Brexit has already cost the UK more than what we paid in to the EU during the years of our membership, and it only goes downhill from here.)

Totally worth it.

 

[goatwack]

It's all so shit and messy, with no apparent upsides, and indeed with the UK now scrabbling to get into a position that even remotely resembles one as beneficial as being an EU member, that one almost wonders, dare I say it, why we're even bothering at all.

Oh yes I remember, it's sovereignty, so that we can revoke the 0.21% of EU laws that were foisted upon us against our will during the entire period of our membership of the EU. (I note the economic argument has dropped off the radar completely now, since Brexit has already cost the UK more than what we paid in to the EU during the years of our membership, and it only goes downhill from here.)

Totally worth it.

Yes but hasn't that been the M.O all along?

Leave club that gives you advantages if in it (rightly or wrongly)

Acknowledge you're now at an instant disadvantage due to leaving said club

Aim to restore parity and get as much of what you had before prior to 'the big breakup'

I don't think anyone realistically stated the UK would be in a better position post-EU. Only thing we've had is those with a penchant for Remain reminding people how much worse everything'd be after the fact!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

A decent piece here IMO.

There's a very important point here too, in that the EU doesn't really care all that much about Brexit now, it's happened, it's past tense, they're purely looking after their own interests and they will try to avoid a No Deal if possible but it will hurt us an awful lot more than it will hurt them, and they'll weather it better than we will.

They will also put the preservation of the EU and its principles above giving the UK a good deal, which is a fatal miscalculation the Leave side has always made.

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That isn’t to say that no deal is inevitable, or that the government has decided on that course. In fact, I suspect the truth is as simple as that the government genuinely believes the dogma of the Brexit echo chamber it now entirely inhabits which insists that ‘the EU always blinks at the last minute’. So on the one hand we’re seeing that strategy repeated and, on the other, getting a taste of how the government and media will present things if no deal turns out to be the consequence: ‘we tried to warn the EU what would happen if it didn’t meet our perfectly reasonable requests but they wouldn’t believe us’.

The logic of this is circular in that the more the EU makes it clear that it will countenance no deal if necessary, the more it confirms the Brexiter view that nothing will change until the very last moment. At the same time, it’s a highly peculiar strategy given that the adverse effects of no deal will be felt much more heavily by the UK than the EU. In effect, it’s a game of chicken which has strapped every man, woman and child in the UK in the path of an oncoming train, and the closer a collision comes the more it justifies staying there. The fallback plan, apparently, is to tell the maimed victims that it was the train driver’s fault.

So that’s the first and, clearly, the foremost blame game on display, that between the UK and the EU. Again, it’s a purely domestic game, because the EU itself won’t be that interested in it, and the member states even less so.