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Brexit - whats the difference.....

I'm a bit confused. You stated that we in the EU can't vote in politicians that can get a grip of the bureaucrats. I asked you why we can't (since I believed your statement was wrong).

To support your information you then posted personal blog that was full of lies and factual faults. When I pointed that out you now ask me to point you to an article that support your view. :confused:

What am I missing here?

no, an objective article on the EU democracy, the text I posted was on that subject. But you said it wasn't objective, so fair enough can you point me to an article [not a blog] that is?
 
Aww come on spoil sport saves mack the leg work if you find the article lol. Such fun :cheerleader: :lolup: :D
Will you stop sabotaging this fight, I've already stuck £20 on Mack taking a dive in the 8th
 
:eek2: :eek:

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no, an objective article on the EU democracy, the text I posted was on that subject. But you said it wasn't objective, so fair enough can you point me to an article [not a blog] that is?

So you actually believe it is objective. Sorry, I thought you were joking ;)

Here are parts from what you quoted:

The Commission is made up of 28 unelected commissioners, who cannot be held to account. Each commissioner has a specific policy area in which to create laws. The Commission has a President (currently Jean-Claude Juncker); unlike the other 27 commissioners he is personally elected by the European Parliament, however his was the only name on the ballot paper, not exactly democratic.

Of course they can be held to account. Actually the whole commission can be sacked by the EP.

My favourite part in what you posted is however:

Power is vested in the unelected and unaccountable elite who make laws - in secret - to preserve the status of large multinationals at the expense of small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs).

In secret. :eek::eek:Must be the Illuminate or The Clintons and Deep State that has joined forces. :lolup:

Returning to the subject; I can vote for a politician that has combating bureaucracy within the EU as his primary agenda, just so you know.
 
So you actually believe it is objective. Sorry, I thought you were joking ;)

Here are parts from what you quoted:

The Commission is made up of 28 unelected commissioners, who cannot be held to account. Each commissioner has a specific policy area in which to create laws. The Commission has a President (currently Jean-Claude Juncker); unlike the other 27 commissioners he is personally elected by the European Parliament, however his was the only name on the ballot paper, not exactly democratic.

Of course they can be held to account. Actually the whole commission can be sacked by the EP.

My favourite part in what you posted is however:

Power is vested in the unelected and unaccountable elite who make laws - in secret - to preserve the status of large multinationals at the expense of small and medium-sized enterprises (SMEs).

In secret. :eek::eek:Must be the Illuminate or The Clintons and Deep State that has joined forces. :lolup:

Returning to the subject; I can vote for a politician that has combating bureaucracy within the EU as his primary agenda, just so you know.

Have you managed to find an objective article on the EU democracy?

If not I have found my old post from last year regarding it and shall post the text of that, written by a professor of political science.

I understand what you mean about objective/subjective opinions but you really believe that a popular well known site like the huffington post would just publish 100% lies about the EU [which is a political institution sat there for everybody to see] with no foundation at all?
 
I'll post it anyway:

"The second crucial factor undermining democracy in Europe has been the European Union. The EU is a technocracy rather than a democracy: It was designed as a protected sphere of policymaking, free from direct democratic pressures. (Or as one astute observer of EU politics, Kathleen McNamara, put it, “The EU governs, rather than represents.”) Critical decisions made by unelected EU technocrats are made without any direct input from citizens who also, of course, lack the ability to throw technocrats out of office if their decisions prove unpopular or counterproductive.

In recent years, more and more policymaking responsibilities have fallen under Brussels’s purview, reducing the powers and policy instruments available to national democratic governments. This undermining of national democracy became particularly acute and noticeable during the 2008 financial crisis, when European countries’ lack of control over their own currencies made it harder to deal with economic challenges while at the same time the EU made decisions with immense distributional consequences — such as imposing austerity on many member states — without direct input by voters or the parties representing them at the national level.

Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European Commission, later expressed remorse for many of these actions, speaking out against the EU’s lack of democratic legitimacy and saying it had “sinned against the dignity” of people in the bailout countries."


from the foreignpolicy.com website and the writer was Sheri Berman, who is a professor of political science at Barnard College and the author of The Primacy of Politics: Social Democracy and the Making of Europe’s Twentieth Century and the forthcoming book Democracy and Dictatorship in Europe: From the Ancien Régime to the Present Day.'

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I'd say she was pretty liberal on the political spectrum but her broader point in the article is that politics as a whole is failing atm, there is a growing disconnect between citizens and political parties, and imo the large corporations are wielding more power, and that's where the EU structure fits that purpose like a glove.
 
Have you managed to find an objective article on the EU democracy?

If not I have found my old post from last year regarding it and shall post the text of that, written by a professor of political science.

I understand what you mean about objective/subjective opinions but you really believe that a popular well known site like the huffington post would just publish 100% lies about the EU [which is a political institution sat there for everybody to see] with no foundation at all?

Huffpost shut the blog platform down 2 years ago. One of the mayor reasons was because all the fake news. No shit :lolup:

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I'll post it anyway:

"The second crucial factor undermining democracy in Europe has been the European Union. The EU is a technocracy rather than a democracy: It was designed as a protected sphere of policymaking, free from direct democratic pressures. (Or as one astute observer of EU politics, Kathleen McNamara, put it, “The EU governs, rather than represents.”) Critical decisions made by unelected EU technocrats are made without any direct input from citizens who also, of course, lack the ability to throw technocrats out of office if their decisions prove unpopular or counterproductive.

In recent years, more and more policymaking responsibilities have fallen under Brussels’s purview, reducing the powers and policy instruments available to national democratic governments. This undermining of national democracy became particularly acute and noticeable during the 2008 financial crisis, when European countries’ lack of control over their own currencies made it harder to deal with economic challenges while at the same time the EU made decisions with immense distributional consequences — such as imposing austerity on many member states — without direct input by voters or the parties representing them at the national level.

Jean-Claude Juncker, the president of the European Commission, later expressed remorse for many of these actions, speaking out against the EU’s lack of democratic legitimacy and saying it had “sinned against the dignity” of people in the bailout countries."


from the foreignpolicy.com website and the writer was Sheri Berman, who is a professor of political science at Barnard College and the author of The Primacy of Politics: Social Democracy and the Making of Europe’s Twentieth Century and the forthcoming book Democracy and Dictatorship in Europe: From the Ancien Régime to the Present Day.'

-----------

I'd say she was pretty liberal on the political spectrum but her broader point in the article is that politics as a whole is failing atm, there is a growing disconnect between citizens and political parties, and imo the large corporations are wielding more power, and that's where the EU structure fits that purpose like a glove.

I ask you to show me proof of your statement that we in the EU can't vote in politicians that can get a grip of the bureaucrats and this are supposed to be it?

As I stated in my original post "Democracy comes in many forms and shapes. I think the current system has it's flaws but I haven't seen any alternative that I think works better considering primarily language barriers and the difference in population between member states. "
 
Huffpost shut the blog platform down 2 years ago. One of the mayor reasons was because all the fake news. No shit :lolup:

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Well that article is still being hosted by them as we speak. You can say he was exaggerating things to make a point but 100% untrue with no foundation?

[I had to delete my history earlier as I couldn't access CM, but I could probably find it again.]

His opinion fits closely to what the professor of political science wrote.
 
I ask you to show me proof of your statement that we in the EU can't vote in politicians that can get a grip of the bureaucrats and this are supposed to be it?

As I stated in my original post "Democracy comes in many forms and shapes. I think the current system has it's flaws but I haven't seen any alternative that I think works better considering primarily language barriers and the difference in population between member states. "

well name a politician who's done it then? [one would do]

we had our pm cameron go to europe with a begging bowl of requests for reform, he was basically shown the door and we got the brexit referendum.
 
Well that article is still being hosted by them as we speak. You can say he was exaggerating things to make a point but 100% untrue with no foundation?

[I had to delete my history earlier as I couldn't access CM, but I could probably find it again.]

His opinion fits closely to what the professor of political science wrote.

II didn't say that it was 100% untrue. You are putting words in my mouth again. That is namely the basic problem when trues are mixed with lies and when people don't question where the facts come from. and believe that since one part is true everything must be true. I pointed you to a couple of lies in the article. I'll leave it with that.
 
well name a politician who's done it then? [one would do]

we had our pm cameron go to europe with a begging bowl of requests for reform, he was basically shown the door and we got the brexit referendum.

Honestly Mack I give up. It's late. Let's discuss something else when it comes to Brexit, down the road. I don't think we will come much longer in this one.
 
If you look back to the early pages of this thread ternur, I went to some great lengths to explain how all this stuff worked, how the UNELECTED BUREAUCRATS are actually, y'know, elected, and so on.

It didn't make any difference.

Something something blue passports something something sovereignty fishing.
 
If you look back to the early pages of this thread ternur, I went to some great lengths to explain how all this stuff worked, how the UNELECTED BUREAUCRATS are actually, y'know, elected, and so on.

It didn't make any difference.

Something something blue passports something something sovereignty fishing.

Skimmed a lot of pages.

If this is the case, I give up. :p
 
@mack341

I have to ask. Do you actually know how the EU enacts legislation and how the member states are represented?

What is your definition of democracy?

Well I have a rough idea of how it works...

But your democracy question [and the EU's 'version' of it ] inspired a little bit of research which has provided some interesting articles and information.

I'll get round to posting that tonight but I couldn't resist sharing this one on a slightly different topic, the crookery of the former president against the actual interests of EU citizens, interesting how he was rewarded with the presidency:

Jean-Claude Juncker blocked EU curbs on tax avoidance, cables show

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[The guardian newspaper]

The president of the European commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, spent years in his previous role as Luxembourg’s prime minister secretly blocking EU efforts to tackle tax avoidance by multinational corporations, leaked documents reveal.

Efforts by a majority of member states to curb aggressive tax planning and to rein in predatory tax policies were regularly delayed, diluted or derailed by the actions of a few of the EU’s smallest members, frequently led by Luxembourg.

The leaked papers ... are highly embarrassing for Juncker, who served as Luxembourg’s prime minister from 1995 until the end of 2013. During that period he also acted as finance and treasury minister, taking a close interest in tax policy.


Despite having a population of just 560,000, Luxembourg was able to resist widely supported EU tax reforms, its dissenting voice often backed only by that of the Netherlands.

A later cable read: “It is impressive to see how some member states present themselves outwardly as proponents of [international tax reforms] and at the same time to watch how they actually behave in EU discussions, protected by confidentiality.”

Jean-Claude Juncker’s record as Luxembourg’s prime minister has cast an enduring shadow over his presidency of the European commission.

Hundreds of the multinational corporations rushed to channel international profits through subsidiaries in the country, among them McDonald’s, Fiat, Amazon, Shire Pharmaceuticals and Skype.

The secret to this success was exposed in 2014 when the Luxleaks scandal revealed the terms hidden within hundreds of private deals, known as “tax rulings”, that Luxembourg had handed out to multinational businesses behind closed doors.

The rulings effectively rubber-stamped complex tax structures that global corporations used to access ultra-low tax rates, often less than 1%, for profits shifted to Luxembourg.

--------------


And then after overseeing all this he's gets to be the EU president for 5 years you couldn't make it up :laugh:
 
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Well I have a rough idea of how it works...

But your democracy question [and the EU's 'version' of it ] inspired a little bit of research which has provided some interesting articles and information.

I'll get round to posting that tonight but I couldn't resist sharing this one on a slightly different topic, the crookery of the former president against the actual interests of EU citizens, interesting how he was rewarded with the presidency:

Jean-Claude Juncker blocked EU curbs on tax avoidance, cables show

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
[The guardian newspaper]

The president of the European commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, spent years in his previous role as Luxembourg’s prime minister secretly blocking EU efforts to tackle tax avoidance by multinational corporations, leaked documents reveal.

Efforts by a majority of member states to curb aggressive tax planning and to rein in predatory tax policies were regularly delayed, diluted or derailed by the actions of a few of the EU’s smallest members, frequently led by Luxembourg.

The leaked papers ... are highly embarrassing for Juncker, who served as Luxembourg’s prime minister from 1995 until the end of 2013. During that period he also acted as finance and treasury minister, taking a close interest in tax policy.


Despite having a population of just 560,000, Luxembourg was able to resist widely supported EU tax reforms, its dissenting voice often backed only by that of the Netherlands.

A later cable read: “It is impressive to see how some member states present themselves outwardly as proponents of [international tax reforms] and at the same time to watch how they actually behave in EU discussions, protected by confidentiality.”

Jean-Claude Juncker’s record as Luxembourg’s prime minister has cast an enduring shadow over his presidency of the European commission.

Hundreds of the multinational corporations rushed to channel international profits through subsidiaries in the country, among them McDonald’s, Fiat, Amazon, Shire Pharmaceuticals and Skype.

The secret to this success was exposed in 2014 when the Luxleaks scandal revealed the terms hidden within hundreds of private deals, known as “tax rulings”, that Luxembourg had handed out to multinational businesses behind closed doors.

The rulings effectively rubber-stamped complex tax structures that global corporations used to access ultra-low tax rates, often less than 1%, for profits shifted to Luxembourg.

--------------


And then after overseeing all this he's gets to be the EU president for 5 years you couldn't make it up :laugh:

The EU is to honesty what AG is to affiliate sites.
 
Ah excellent. Mack's back from black

:laugh: I think I may have over-egged the anticipation for my next post, but I'm building this case slowly and with limited resources :p

I'll wait till I get a substantive reply from the remainer crew and EU fanboys :D re the juncker post above, otherwise I'm just having a thread conversation with myself :rolleyes: :laugh:
 
:laugh: I think I may have over-egged the anticipation for my next post, but I'm building this case slowly and with limited resources :p

I'll wait till I get a substantive reply from the remainer crew and EU fanboys re the juncker post above, otherwise I'm just having a thread conversation with myself :rolleyes: :laugh:
I thought Jelena had wiped your history again because your name was noob black lettering. Either that or you were mourning yesterday's Matti mauling :eek:

My profile colour seems to have demoted too. I was a A-Tier Paladin and for some unbeknownst reason am now a lvl.2 Smurf
 
:laugh: I think I may have over-egged the anticipation for my next post, but I'm building this case slowly and with limited resources :p

I'll wait till I get a substantive reply from the remainer crew and EU fanboys :D re the juncker post above, otherwise I'm just having a thread conversation with myself :rolleyes: :laugh:

Talking to yourself can work. Not much arguing and plenty of back slapping :cheerleader: :lolup: :eek2:
 
Ternur doesn't read the words of mortals, especially in Brexit threads. He gets his evil imps to proofread every last opinion.

Some of them even comment

That's true, he sent me a letter that had a load of these funny looking squiggles.

Still trying to work out when i'm being sacrificed from it.

Either that, or a love letter.

Screenshot 2020-03-03 at 18.20.38.webp
 
That's true, he sent me a letter that had a load of these funny looking squiggles.

Still trying to work out when i'm being sacrificed from it.

Either that, or a love letter.

View attachment 124385
Think that means 12 noon death by killer ants. Thursday week lol . Bye pinnit nice knowing you lol :machinegunner:
 
:laugh: I think I may have over-egged the anticipation for my next post, but I'm building this case slowly and with limited resources :p

I'll wait till I get a substantive reply from the remainer crew and EU fanboys :D re the juncker post above, otherwise I'm just having a thread conversation with myself :rolleyes: :laugh:

Superb job mack, singling out one of dozens of PMs, finance ministers, presidents etc.

You could ask the same of Guernsey&Jersey, Ireland, Liechenstein etc etc.

Would be also interesting to find out what big incentives companies like Toyota, major banks and others got to set up shop in the UK. Care to research for a balanced discussion? Or are you just looking for reasons to hate the EU that will justify your stance on Brexit? :rolleyes:
 
Superb job mack, singling out one of dozens of PMs, finance ministers, presidents etc.

You could ask the same of Guernsey&Jersey, Ireland, Liechenstein etc etc.

Would be also interesting to find out what big incentives companies like Toyota, major banks and others got to set up shop in the UK. Care to research for a balanced discussion? Or are you just looking for reasons to hate the EU that will justify your stance on Brexit? :rolleyes:

:confused: you've lost me...two wrongs make a right ? Juncker just happens to be the outgoing EU president, if you can't see this multinational corporate tax evasion he set up as detrimental to the same europeans he ruled over then I'm amazed. Not only that he deliberately blocked/vetoed the EU from reform in this area prior to becoming the eu president.

Incentives to open a car factory in a high unemployment area in the uk, is nowhere near on the same moral level as ensuring an ongoing tax avoidance scheme for multinationals so they only 1% tax on profit.
 
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:confused: you've lost me...two wrongs make a right ? Juncker just happens to be the outgoing EU president, if you can't see this multinational corporate tax evasion he set up as detrimental to the same europeans he ruled over then I'm amazed. Not only that he deliberately blocked/vetoed the EU from reform in this area prior to becoming the eu president.

Incentives to open a car factory in a high unemployment area in the uk, is nowhere near on the same moral level as ensuring an ongoing tax avoidance scheme for multinationals so they only 1% tax on profit.

None is right but it is neither OK to single out one out of the dozens.

It is not just a car factory.... e.g. banks, insurance companies, hedge funds and more set-up shop in London. Don't you think they received incentives?

Your PMs blocked/vetoed a lot more regarding EU reform than Juncker ever did. Again, it makes it not right but they all did what they were convinced at the time to be the best for their country.
 
So in order to make my post ok/balanced I would have to also list dozens of other instances involving PMs and finance ministers... I'm just sat here with google on my todd, it was a copy and paste from the guardian [who are hardly anti EU].

One off sweetners are different to setting up a whole tax regime to allow multinationals to dodge tax payments, there's an issue of scale here.

I've never thought the uk govts [major, blair, cameron and may's] had totally clean hands re EU activities, I don't know if they rubber stamped Juncker's appointment, they certainly knew he'd set up this tax dodge for the mega corporations but the point of that article was he went one step further and ' obstructed the bloc’s tax reforms efforts '

If the citizens of the EU had a direct vote for the president, no way would they have chosen Juncker if they knew about his tax evasion scheme, reform blocks and closeness with the corporatocracy.

Who knows what other things Juncker has pushed while president, that the mega corporations want and lobbied him for, against the interests of EU citizens?
 
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It gets better, Juncker resigned as Luxembourg PM due to a spy scandal:

Jean-Claude Juncker, prime minister since 1995 and the European Union’s longest serving government chief, tendered his resignation to Grand Duke Henri, the royal head of state who himself has been implicated in media reports of espionage.

The catalyst for the resignation was a parliamentary inquiry published last week that said Luxembourg’s security agency illegally bugged politicians and members of the public, purchased cars for private use and took payments and favors in exchange for access to influential officials.

In a scene reminiscent of a spy novel, former security chief Marco Mille recorded a conversation with Juncker in 2008 using a microphone in his watch.

Mille told Juncker he had reliable reports that Grand Duke Henri was in constant contact with Britain’s secret services, according to one newspaper. The Grand Duke’s office has denied the allegation.

The government was already under pressure due to renewed interest in a mysterious series of sabotage bomb attacks in the 1980s, known as the Bommeleeer affair, whose targets included electricity pylons and a
n airport radar system as well as a newspaper office.

[reuters]


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My last post on monsieur Juncker, from the Guardian:

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I'm tempted to copy and paste the whole thing even though it is written from the left viewpoint :p
[It also states many large british firms routed capital through luxembourg to avoid tax.]

"I admit that Jean-Claude does not appear at first glance to be the man most likely to promote the European socialists' goal of "ensuring that our societies become fairer". Nor at a second, third or fourth glance either. Juncker has dedicated his career to ensuring that society becomes less fair; that wealthy institutions and individuals can avoid the taxes little people and small businesses must pay.

"... Luxembourg is a far greater menace than the Caribbean laundromats. It benefits from the European Union's free movement of capital, while the Cayman Islands, say, cannot. More dangerously, it inspires the Netherlands, Ireland and other EU states following beggar-thy-neighbour tax policies to join it in a race to the bottom."

The basic standards of honest government ought to disbar him from the presidency. The European Commission he presumes to lead is investigating the Luxembourg he created. It wants to know how Amazon could put £11bn through its Luxembourg-based subsidiary in 2013, while paying only £4m in UK corporation tax on goods sold to British customers, packaged in British warehouses and moved on British roads. Ireland and the Netherlands are co-operating with the inquiry into illicit tax advantages. Luxembourg, however, has compelled the commission to go to court to secure the relevant documents.

Juncker is asking to be put in charge of a European Commission that is engaged in legal action against his tax regime. He will be supervising an investigation into deals he insisted as prime minister of Luxembourg should remain hidden. I do not see how he can be trusted with such power, not least because the EU's lax rules place no obligation on Juncker to declare a conflict of interest.
 
It's a comical remark, but it makes a serious point, imagine if we end up having actual real shortages of things after a disorderly crash out of the EU in January.....

1583754080178.webp
 
Left-wing Remainer rag, oh hang on, The Telepgraph, so literally as Brexity as you can get, reporting that we are due for mountains of red tape and delays at our borders once the transition period ends.

Haulage, shipping and freight industries said to be 'up in arms'.

1583754825961.webp

1583754837375.webp
 
Today's instalment of, 'Yes, this all seems fine'.

Remember folks, we have absolutely no experience in negotiating trade deals because the EU have done it for us, for decades.

The USA are going to eat us for breakfast.

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Chop are the EU psychic? we'd surely have had to negotiate with them to put forward our interests in the EU deals they did with other countries?

I am a bit worried about the US trade deals, as they seem to have an extreme capitalist approach/philosphy, not necessarily in line with how we want things here.

However many people [europeans on the mainland] on the left were unhappy at the new deal the EU were attempting to do with the US, saying it damaged their rights and put corporations in the driving seat over democratically elected govts.
 

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