Brexit - whats the difference.....

[steveh35]

A good commentary from last night.

A lot of MPs looked exhausted & emotionally wrung out tonight. They're making hellishly difficult choices under a hail of emotional & physical abuse, while the doomsday clock ticks down to midnight. No one thinks clearly in these conditions. For all our sakes, we need a time out.

We are trying to cram into three days a debate that should have begun three years ago: exploring what the options might be, what trade-offs they involve and whether they command a majority. It hardly matters any longer who's to blame: this is an insane way to decide our future.

No one *wants* another year of this, but it's more important to do this well than to do it quickly. So let's extend for a year & use the summer - & the EP elections - for a serious ventilation of the options. Citizens Assemblies, town-hall meetings, seminars for MPs - the lot.

Let's do what we should have done in the first place & open up a serious public debate, which accepts that we're choosing from imperfect alternatives - all of which (including Remain) come with costs & trade-offs. Then let's try again, refreshed & better informed, in the Autumn.

Extend??? MP's voted for article 50 two years ago they knew what was going to happen on March 29 and they voted for it, some of the baffoons in parliament seem to forget this.

The last thing we want, the EU wants or any other country is for this farce to go on, let's leave on 12 April and as a woman from Stockton On Tees said on CNN last night we take the hit but we are British and we get back up and rebuild ourselves, it's what Britain does.

 

[Gina Wild]

Britain voted to leave, so leave then without a deal, that's you voted for and this is what you should get.

 

[dunover]

A good commentary from last night.

A lot of MPs looked exhausted & emotionally wrung out tonight. They're making hellishly difficult choices under a hail of emotional & physical abuse, while the doomsday clock ticks down to midnight. No one thinks clearly in these conditions. For all our sakes, we need a time out.

We are trying to cram into three days a debate that should have begun three years ago: exploring what the options might be, what trade-offs they involve and whether they command a majority. It hardly matters any longer who's to blame: this is an insane way to decide our future.

No one *wants* another year of this, but it's more important to do this well than to do it quickly. So let's extend for a year & use the summer - & the EP elections - for a serious ventilation of the options. Citizens Assemblies, town-hall meetings, seminars for MPs - the lot.

Let's do what we should have done in the first place & open up a serious public debate, which accepts that we're choosing from imperfect alternatives - all of which (including Remain) come with costs & trade-offs. Then let's try again, refreshed & better informed, in the Autumn.

That's just it - they AREN'T making choices and none of the demonstrative votes have done much better than May's dog of a deal.

Poor MP's with their 4 months holidays a year on the public purse. Nice to see them working hard for once rather than fiddling expenses for porn channels in hotels etc.

 

[steveh35]

Britain voted to leave, so leave then without a deal, that's you voted for and this is what you should get.

If our damn stupid remain MP's would stop voting against it we could leave, the remain MP's voted to trigger article 50 we should have gone on March 29th it was written into law now 12 April is written into law this should be it.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

at least we will have a democratic process where we have a say in how the country is run, what laws we want to see come in or be changed.

72 out of 34,105 we objected to.

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[dunover]

If our damn stupid remain MP's would stop voting against it we could leave, the remain MP's voted to trigger article 50 we should have gone on March 29th it was written into law now 12 April is written into law this should be it.

Yep. Hopefully that horrid little speaker won't be a hypocrite and exercise the same authority on these continuous votes to overturn the leaving date legislation already passed, as he did with May and her repeatedly trying the same deal.

 

[mack341]

Incidentally I still don't get how Scotland wants independence then wants to sign up to a club it can never leave which will dictate it's laws and rules forever.

100% agree, it's nonsensical, can only be based on hatred of being ruled by the english elite/establishment in London, they'd rather be ruled over by brussels. It's madness, we're one island and brits, and can all get along nicely, I'm 25% scottish myself but I can't stand that snp bloke in parliament, and sturgeon, yuck. There's an elite in scotland mismanaging the country themselves for years, unable to resolve the social problems, crime and drugs etc..

 

[steveh35]

Yep. Hopefully that horrid little speaker won't be a hypocrite and exercise the same authority on these continuous votes to overturn the leaving date legislation already passed, as he did with May and her repeatedly trying the same deal.

How has the house of commons with it's 326 MP's pnly just found out that the speaker can do what he wants? Did no one ever realise the power this person has?

 

[colinsunderland]

Yes, and no. The £350m is correct, but what it didn't mention was the fact that it was not a net amount and that a proportion of it came back via dev grants etc. Typical politics with lies, damn lies and statistics.

That said, it did demonstrate the stupidity of us sending billions to foreigners of which they decide to redirect some back for certain expenditure in OUR country of THEIR choice. Insane. And therein lies the 'taking back control' aspect of the argument which is undeniable.

And that is exactly my point. People were voting not having a clue exactly what they were voting on. How on earth can anyone think, putting a decision like this into the hands of people who don't know exactly what they are voting for, can end up a good thing? And lets be fair, a lot of people voting are not exactly the brightest sparks. Around the time of the vote I heard such classic reasons as 'yeah leave, get rid of all the f*cking p*kis' , 'leave, ship all the foreign c*nts back to their own country' etc etc. The second one was especially good as one person who said it is close to retirement and is wanting to emigrate to Spain to retire . Nissan workers wanting to leave, despite the fact they only have a job because we are in the EU, and the strong rumour around the plant is that they won't have jobs in 10 years time if we leave.

You understand the lies and have the intelligence to look further into the claims, then make a reasoned decision based on facts. Many people don't, or didn't bother, just believing the headlines.

 

[dunover]

72 out of 34,105 we objected to.

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View attachment 106906

And? That's 72 too many, 72 we wouldn't have had if we hadn't ceded sovereign powers to foreigners. Laws are like a continuous string of DNA and whether 1 or 72 or 350, it can turn the whole string rotten, into something else. Did this guy bother to mention to gravity or effects of any of those specific 72 laws?

 

[mack341]

72 out of 34,105 we objected to.

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View attachment 106906

yes but that is just 72 laws the uk govt/civil service objected to, not the british public, statistics will never change the core underlying democratic flaws of the EU. We can change our govt and mp's but we cannot as a voting public have the same control/protection re the EU

 

[steveh35]

And that is exactly my point. People were voting not having a clue exactly what they were voting on. How on earth can anyone think, putting a decision like this into the hands of people who don't know exactly what they are voting for, can end up a good thing? And lets be fair, a lot of people voting are not exactly the brightest sparks. Around the time of the vote I heard such classic reasons as 'yeah leave, get rid of all the f*cking p*kis' , 'leave, ship all the foreign c*nts back to their own country' etc etc. The second one was especially good as one person who said it is close to retirement and is wanting to emigrate to Spain to retire . Nissan workers wanting to leave, despite the fact they only have a job because we are in the EU, and the strong rumour around the plant is that they won't have jobs in 10 years time if we leave.

You understand the lies and have the intelligence to look further into the claims, then make a reasoned decision based on facts. Many people don't, or didn't bother, just believing the headlines.

That's another thing you hear from remainers, people did not know what they were voting for, they shouldn't have given people the vote, then they say "let's have a people's vote let them have their say".

The brick wall I am banging my head against is almost falling down.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

And? That's 72 too many, 72 we wouldn't have had if we hadn't ceded sovereign powers to foreigners. Laws are like a continuous string of DNA and whether 1 or 72 or 350, it can turn the whole string rotten, into something else. Did this guy bother to mention to gravity or effects of any of those specific 72 laws?

Yes, have a look at the Twitter thread I linked, he provides the details of all 72 of them.

 

[colinsunderland]

That's another thing you hear from remainers, people did not know what they were voting for, they shouldn't have given people the vote, then they say "let's have a people's vote let them have their say".

The brick wall I am banging my head against is almost falling down.

I disagreed with the referendum well before it happened. Nothing to do with being a leaver or remainer, just a belief that a decision like this should not be made by people who have no clue what it means. Now it has happened, now people are starting to see what it means, then people should be allowed to vote again based on actual information and facts. Doesn't change my view, it should never have happened in the first place.

 

[mack341]

And? That's 72 too many, 72 we wouldn't have had if we hadn't ceded sovereign powers to foreigners. Laws are like a continuous string of DNA and whether 1 or 72 or 350, it can turn the whole string rotten, into something else. Did this guy bother to mention to gravity or effects of any of those specific 72 laws?

I think our own politicians are just as capable of bringing in bad, unnecessary laws as the EU, you've only got to look how parliament is operating atm to lose trust in their wise governance. But at least we have the ballot box, the only effective non violent way of deciding how we're going to be governed.

We need to get shot of Theresa May asap, she's been totally deceptive for over two years...

 

[colinsunderland]

yes but that is just 72 laws the uk govt/civil service objected to, not the british public, statistics will never change the core underlying democratic flaws of the EU. We can change our govt and mp's but we cannot as a voting public have the same control/protection re the EU

So, again, which laws do you think shouldn't have been passed?

 

[Okman]

You've described their policies as 'ultra conservative' but if you went back 30 years they'd just be mainstream conservative. The liberal elite have been shifting the goal posts on the back of their political correctness project, and it seems anyone who opposes globalism [which includes a federal EU ] is labelled far right. I don't know much about their policies, I just thought she spoke a fair bit of sense in this video.

We've had our referendum and 17 million voted to leave, and I would estimate at least 40% of voters in every nation of the EU wants to leave, so that's got to be over a hundred million. I just don't see what's so good about the EU, not europe the countries, but this dictatorship with it's headquarters in brussels. According to politicians and pundits, like jeremy corbyn, the EU protects workers rights so it must have been asleep when zero hour contract jobs became widespread in the uk, you can't get something much worse for a worker than that, sheer exploitation IMO.

I don’t see where you explained how I was wrong or incorrect with what I said, instead you just told me a bunch of reasons why you don’t like the EU. You are completely allowed to have your opinions, I don’t dispute them, but by replying to me without acknowledging my statement and blaming globalist boogeymen for “shifting the goalposts” is a bit daft.

 

[Gina Wild]

What I am really curouis about is if your government does anything else than debating about brexit? Is there anything else getting done beside brexit. Because our government made some significant changes in the last two years.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

we take the hit but we are British and we get back up and rebuild ourselves, it's what Britain does.

I don't remember Boris driving around in a bus with 'WE'LL TAKE A HIT' written on the side, and that we'd have to 'rebuild' afterwards.

We had to rebuild after World War 2. This is something we've inflicted entirely on ourselves.

There has been no natural disaster, no war, no revolution, we live in times of peace and prosperity, why should there be a need to 'rebuild' anything?

 

[Gina Wild]

I don't remember Boris driving around in a bus with 'WE'LL TAKE A HIT' written on the side, and that we'd have to 'rebuild' afterwards.

We had to rebuild after World War 2. This is something we've inflicted entirely on ourselves.

There has been no natural disaster, no war, no revolution, we live in times of peace and prosperity, why should there be a need to 'rebuild' anything?

A Mp said in an interview its surviveable, maybe they should have written this on the side of the red bus.
A bus which was made in Poland from a German company

 

[thr0b]

Also, the world of 80 years ago is entirely different to the world of today. We’re truly global. The EU helps us be.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

What I am really curouis about is if your government does anything else than debating about brexit? Is there anything else getting done beside brexit. Because our government made some significant changes in the last two years.

Brexit is an absolute horror show that has sucked all the air out of the room in terms of us working to address the real issues in the UK, rather than this self-imposed psychodrama channelled through a malfunctioning parliament and a government so incompetent the scale of it can be seen from space with the naked eye.

And at the end of it we all get to be poorer. But we do get blue passports. Made in France.

 

[Gina Wild]

Brexit is an absolute horror show that has sucked all the air out of the room in terms of us working to address the real issues in the UK, rather than this self-imposed psychodrama channelled through a malfunctioning parliament and a government so incompetent the scale of it can be seen from space with the naked eye.

And at the end of it we all get to poorer. But we do get blue passports. Made in France.

This is something I really had to laugh really hard about, the blue passports, I live next to the Italian border and whenever I go to Italy I have to take my passport with me. But I never ever wasted a thought about the color of it

 

[steveh35]

I don't remember Boris driving around in a bus with 'WE'LL TAKE A HIT' written on the side, and that we'd have to 'rebuild' afterwards.

We had to rebuild after World War 2. This is something we've inflicted entirely on ourselves.

There has been no natural disaster, no war, no revolution, we live in times of peace and prosperity, why should there be a need to 'rebuild' anything?

No war?? Yugoslavia 1993, IRA 1970-1998, Urkraine vs Russia, Spain vs Catalonia. no natural disaster seriously SERIOUSLY you are saying the EU biblically stopped all natural disasters . we live in time of peace errrrm ISIS.

 

[mack341]

I don’t see where you explained how I was wrong or incorrect with what I said, instead you just told me a bunch of reasons why you don’t like the EU. You are completely allowed to have your opinions, I don’t dispute them, but by replying to me without acknowledging my statement and blaming globalist boogeymen for “shifting the goalposts” is a bit daft.

I did edit my post as I wanted to re amplify my original point regarding who, how and why the AFD was possibly being labelled/smeared as far right [ultra conservative being a euphemism of far right or beyond the pale]

The meaning of your statement as I interpreted it was there is unbiased justification [which had nothing to do with the powerful influence of liberal mainstream media] for describing their policies as extreme right, however I disagree and think that totally overlooks the power and influence of the media to determine the political spectrum, of what's acceptable and what's not.

I'm experiencing it now in the UK, where you have a experienced channel four news presenter commentating on live tv how the brexit protesters were all white skinned. He was trying to insinuate for the viewer at home that the brexit movement is racist, so he is trying to label and influence the political debate. times this agenda by 24hrs a day, 7 days a week and 365 days a year for 25 odd years across all media and you can see the power and influence it must have.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

No war?? Yugoslavia 1993, IRA 1970-1998, Urkraine vs Russia, Spain vs Catalonia. no natural disaster seriously SERIOUSLY you are saying the EU biblically stopped all natural disasters . we live in time of peace errrrm ISIS.

I think you'll find the EU databases and security expertise we'll lose access to in a No Deal scenario would be great news for ISIS and the likes.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

this agenda by 24hrs a day, 7 days a week and 365 days a year for 25 odd years across all media and you can see the power and influence it must have.

Across all media, really?

The right wing press in the UK have been relentlessly hostile to the EU, and outright telling lies about it, for decades.

'Brussels to outlaw mushy peas' - The Sun

Link Removed (Old/Invalid)

 

[mack341]

So, again, which laws do you think shouldn't have been passed?

could be thousands?? the sheer number gives you a basic idea of the lunancy involved, talk about saving the environment they must have had cut down a million trees to publish that lot?

 

[mack341]

we live in times of peace and prosperity

Food banks, knife crime epidemic, homeless everywhere, living in underpasses etc.., do you really believe this is the best we can expect?

 

[colinsunderland]

could be thousands?? the sheer number gives you a basic idea of the lunancy involved, talk about saving the environment they must have had cut down a million trees to publish that lot?

Well 72 to be exact. All the rest would have gone through anyway, the public don't get a vote on laws
But out of the thousands, feel free to pick a couple?

 

[colinsunderland]

Food banks, knife crime epidemic, homeless everywhere, living in underpasses etc.., do you really believe this is the best we can expect?

How does being in the EU make any of that worse? Foodbanks for example have 'boomed' in recent years solely due to UC, and would be much worse if it wasn't for EU laws, as the government have lost many legal challenges in regards to benefits over the past few years.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Food banks, knife crime epidemic, homeless everywhere, living in underpasses etc.., do you really believe this is the best we can expect?

Sorry I could have phrased that better, as I already posted above, Brexit is a distraction from the real issues in this country. The UK is a rich country, the problem is how the pie is divided up, Brexit will do nothing to address any of that, and indeed will make it worse as people find their rights and protections (many of which are guaranteed by the EU) start to get stripped away by disaster capitalists.

 

[steveh35]

Food banks, knife crime epidemic, homeless everywhere, living in underpasses etc.., do you really believe this is the best we can expect?

Food Banks were brought in by Tony Blair in 2004: In 2004, Trussell only ran two food banks,

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but by 2007–2008, there were 22 food banks in the Trussell Trust Foodbank Network and by early 2011, The Trussell Trust supported 100. As of May 2012, they had 201.

homelessness is an ongoing issue it isn't a new phenomenon it was a hige issue when I worked in civil service in 2000s they used to sleep on the fire escape and leave needles stuck in the door edges.

 

[mack341]

Across all media, really?

The right wing press in the UK have been relentlessly hostile to the EU, and outright telling lies about it, for decades.

'Brussels to outlaw mushy peas' - The Sun

Link Removed (Old/Invalid)

I've pretty much always despised the Sun, but they are part of the same group as the times which is staunchly remain, pro iraq war, pro globalism etc..

I think the Sun went this way to hold the readership, keep them buying the paper, so as to weald the strongest political influence come election time. Which Murdoch used to his advantage time and again, it is claimed his backing for tony blair's new labour helped blair gain a massive majority in the HOP

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Food Banks were brought in by Tony Blair in 2004: In 2004, Trussell only ran two food banks,

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but by 2007–2008, there were 22 food banks in the Trussell Trust Foodbank Network and by early 2011, The Trussell Trust supported 100. As of May 2012, they had 201.

homelessness is an ongoing issue it isn't a new phenomenon it was a hige issue when I worked in civil service in 2000s they used to sleep on the fire escape and leave needles stuck in the door edges.

I fail to see what the EU has to do with any of that.

Do you not think a decade of grinding Tory austerity might be responsible for the explosion in food bank use more than, perhaps, the EU passing a law against our will compensating passengers for delayed flights?

 

[dunover]

Across all media, really?

The right wing press in the UK have been relentlessly hostile to the EU, and outright telling lies about it, for decades.

'Brussels to outlaw mushy peas' - The Sun

Link Removed (Old/Invalid)

I dunno what you're banging on about, as the IOM isn't even in the EU anyway! You live outside the EU matey, so I take your opinions here with a pinch of salt.

The Isle of Man holds neither membership nor associate membership of the EU and lies outside the EEA too. Nonetheless, Protocol 3 permits trade in Manx goods without non-EU tariffs. In conjunction with the Customs and Excise agreement with the UK, this facilitates free trade with the UK. While Manx goods can be freely moved within the EEA, people, capital and services cannot.

Like Jersey and Guernsey, the Isle of Man is a crown dependency and neither part of the United Kingdom nor a direct member of the EU, but its relationship with the EU is defined under Article 355(5)(c) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (former Article 299 of the EC Treaty) and Protocol 3.

The restriction on free movement of persons is anomalous in that the treaty establishing the EU clearly states that all citizens of member states will also be citizens of the EU. However a special protocol was inserted in the Treaty of Accession which excluded the channel Islands and Isle of Man from the provisions governing free movement of people. This was done at the request of the governments of those Crown Dependencies.

So basically you live somewhere which can effectively control its borders, an option not open to us in totality until we voted to leave the bloody EU. We're only after the same rights you already enjoy dear friend....

 

[steveh35]

I dunno what you're banging on about, as the IOM isn't even in the EU anyway! You live outside the EU matey, so I take your opinions here with a pinch of salt.

The Isle of Man holds neither membership nor associate membership of the EU and lies outside the EEA too. Nonetheless, Protocol 3 permits trade in Manx goods without non-EU tariffs. In conjunction with the Customs and Excise agreement with the UK, this facilitates free trade with the UK. While Manx goods can be freely moved within the EEA, people, capital and services cannot.

Like Jersey and Guernsey, the Isle of Man is a crown dependency and neither part of the United Kingdom nor a direct member of the EU, but its relationship with the EU is defined under Article 355(5)(c) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (former Article 299 of the EC Treaty) and Protocol 3.

The restriction on free movement of persons is anomalous in that the treaty establishing the EU clearly states that all citizens of member states will also be citizens of the EU. However a special protocol was inserted in the Treaty of Accession which excluded the channel Islands and Isle of Man from the provisions governing free movement of people. This was done at the request of the governments of those Crown Dependencies.

So basically you live somewhere which can effectively control its borders, an option not open to us in totality until we voted to leave the bloody EU. We're only after the same rights you already enjoy dear friend....

BUT BUT BUT Dunover the Isle Of Man is an insignificant little island with no manufacturing industry and with no power around the top table.... oh hang on

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I dunno what you're banging on about, as the IOM isn't even in the EU anyway! You live outside the EU matey, so I take your opinions here with a pinch of salt.

So basically you live somewhere which can effectively control its borders, an option not open to us in totality until we voted to leave the bloody EU. We're only after the same rights you already enjoy dear friend....

I fail to see why my precise location precludes me from holding, or expressing, opinions on matters of massive significance to the UK. (A country my entire extended family lives in.)

Anyway, we'll be hit badly in the event of a No Deal Brexit, as we're so intertwined with the UK, which in turn is deeply intertwined with the EU.

Yes it's true we have some border controls not available to the UK, but in reality we've basically had a 'doors open' policy for quite some time, it's the only way we can get the workers we need in many sectors.

 

[dunover]

BUT BUT BUT Dunover the Isle Of Man is an insignificant little island with no manufacturing industry and with no power around the top table.... oh hang on

And shit weather. But it does have the TT....

 

[mack341]

Well 72 to be exact. All the rest would have gone through anyway, the public don't get a vote on laws
But out of the thousands, feel free to pick a couple?

we get to vote in who makes the laws, or is that of no importance or value to the british people?

I don't understand what you mean re 'well 72 to be exact', the civil service just disagreed with those 72, may have been laws that tiptoed into areas they see as sacrosanct and under their jurisdiction, You don't really think the civil service mandarins think like normal common sense people surely??

laws should be passed that improve things not just for the sake of it, like a micro managing control freak. Hasn't your experience of the ukgc quango with its reams of guidance [euphemism for regulations/law] taught you anything?

 

[goatwack]

Ah excellent. Just the 10 days to go with this thread! Guess it's gonna get really spicy with each passing hour

 

[Okman]

I did edit my post as I wanted to re amplify my original point regarding who, how and why the AFD was possibly being labelled/smeared as far right [ultra conservative being a euphemism of far right or beyond the pale]

The meaning of your statement as I interpreted it was there is unbiased justification [which had nothing to do with the powerful influence of liberal mainstream media] for describing their policies as extreme right, however I disagree and think that totally overlooks the power and influence of the media to determine the political spectrum, of what's acceptable and what's not.

I'm experiencing it now in the UK, where you have a experienced channel four news presenter commentating on live tv how the brexit protesters were all white skinned. He was trying to insinuate for the viewer at home that the brexit movement is racist, so he is trying to label and influence the political debate. times this agenda by 24hrs a day, 7 days a week and 365 days a year for 25 odd years across all media and you can see the power and influence it must have.

You miss my point. You originally argued that 30 years ago it was all different and ultra conservative now would simply be conservative.

The idea of political spectrum of left and right dates back to the days of the French Revolution, and the charts people still refer to (Nolan Charts and Pournelle Charts) were created in the 1960’s. Even today’s popular coloured political compass reflects these.

We can argue semiotics and semantics all day, but not acknowledging AfD for what they actually propose and stand for is just ignorance. Just call a spade a spade.

 

[steveh35]

Ah excellent. Just the 10 days to go with this thread! Guess it's gonna get really spicy with each passing hour

I doubt it will be 10 days only in our dreams even if we left on 12 April it wouldn't end they would just find a way to block the no deal and extend article 50. This has no end whatever happens.

 

[goatwack]

I'm still finding it really tricky dividing the Remainers from the Leavers. So ambiguous

 

[sledge13]

No but an overspend of £675000, when the result was so close, could easily have been the difference between the stay/leave result being different.

Hahah unreal not this rubbish again!! The remainers had £10 million worth of overspend with the cons remain leaflets shoved through all our doors, abs disgusting waste of propoganda money!

 

[mack341]

You miss my point. You originally argued that 30 years ago it was all different and ultra conservative now would simply be conservative.

The idea of political spectrum of left and right dates back to the days of the French Revolution, and the charts people still refer to (Nolan Charts and Pournelle Charts) were created in the 1960’s. Even today’s popular coloured political compass reflects these.

We can argue semiotics and semantics all day, but not acknowledging AfD for what they actually propose and stand for is just ignorance. Just call a spade a spade.

how am I wrong then? I lived through this exact period and know it's true, many mainstream conservative views 30 years ago would be labelled far right now by the media and liberal politicians. That's a fact.

I am not an expert on the AFD and surprised you being all the way out there in australia are interested in them and presumably the german political scene enough to follow it as closely as you do, however in my view without 25-30 years of political correctness from the liberal elite the views she gave in that video, for instance, regarding a European border would not be viewed as far right...

 

[colinsunderland]

we get to vote in who makes the laws, or is that of no importance or value to the british people?

I don't understand what you mean re 'well 72 to be exact', the civil service just disagreed with those 72, may have been laws that tiptoed into areas they see as sacrosanct and under their jurisdiction, You don't really think the civil service mandarins think like normal common sense people surely??

laws should be passed that improve things not just for the sake of it, like a micro managing control freak. Hasn't your experience of the ukgc quango with its reams of guidance [euphemism for regulations/law] taught you anything?

You should be a politician, you would be pretty good it it.

 

[mack341]

I dunno what you're banging on about, as the IOM isn't even in the EU anyway! You live outside the EU matey, so I take your opinions here with a pinch of salt.

The Isle of Man holds neither membership nor associate membership of the EU and lies outside the EEA too. Nonetheless, Protocol 3 permits trade in Manx goods without non-EU tariffs. In conjunction with the Customs and Excise agreement with the UK, this facilitates free trade with the UK. While Manx goods can be freely moved within the EEA, people, capital and services cannot.

Like Jersey and Guernsey, the Isle of Man is a crown dependency and neither part of the United Kingdom nor a direct member of the EU, but its relationship with the EU is defined under Article 355(5)(c) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (former Article 299 of the EC Treaty) and Protocol 3.

The restriction on free movement of persons is anomalous in that the treaty establishing the EU clearly states that all citizens of member states will also be citizens of the EU. However a special protocol was inserted in the Treaty of Accession which excluded the channel Islands and Isle of Man from the provisions governing free movement of people. This was done at the request of the governments of those Crown Dependencies.

So basically you live somewhere which can effectively control its borders, an option not open to us in totality until we voted to leave the bloody EU. We're only after the same rights you already enjoy dear friend....

yeah her old Maj and the royal family weren't stupid, she'll never let the EU get their hands on her property and offshore financial tax havens, I did ask @ChopleyIOM would he vote to be directly governed by the EU rather than Maj but he hasn't come back as yet on that, still I feel he does have a right of opinion/say on brexit.

 

[mack341]

You should be a politician, you would be pretty good it it.

That's a back handed compliment if ever I've seen one

 

[Okman]

how am I wrong then? I lived through this exact period and know it's true, many mainstream conservative views 30 years ago would be labelled far right now by the media and liberal politicians. That's a fact.

I am not an expert on the AFD and surprised you being all the way out there in australia are interested in them and presumably the german political scene enough to follow it as closely as you do, however in my view without 25-30 years of political correctness from the liberal elite the views she gave in that video, for instance, regarding a European border would not be viewed as far right...

Family is from Essex. Not that it has anything to do with what we are speaking about.

I really tried to just have a civil discourse with you, but you remain (no pun intended) pig headed about it. I conceded points in the interest of debate, you concede nothing.

I’m on a gambling forum lol