Brexit - whats the difference.....

[Mr_Slot5]

Do you think it might just be that there's a majority in the Houses of Common that realises how utterly ruinous a No Deal Brexit would be, hence they're doing everything in their power to stop it?

Given what we know about politicians, I'm more inclined to believe that anything they try to do to stop Brexit is done for their own benefit, not the plebs'

If you think taking the threat of no deal off the negotiating table is anything but akin to shooting yourself in the foot then I have to question your intelligence.

Let's leave aside the whole Brexit debate per se for one moment. Do you seriously think that it is right for MPs who represent constituencies that voted leave, to try to thwart negotiations in this way? Is that how public serving governments work?

No deal was extremely unlikely to ever be realised, providing it was a viable route to take in the eyes of the EU.

You gloss over the fact that it's easy for the EU to say that they wont budge over 'red lines' when there is absolutely nothing in our hand of cards to push them to say anything else. That's how damaging no threat of no deal has been.

 

[goatwack]

What I enjoy most of all is being told that I made the wrong choice, I'm a dumb serf, and that 52% of the voters were clearly not clued-up!

This of course coming from Remainers who cannot accept the result........still

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Let's leave aside the whole Brexit debate per se for one moment. Do you seriously think that it is right for MPs who represent constituencies that voted leave, to try to thwart negotiations in this way? Is that how public serving governments work?

That's literally what an MP's duty is, to represent what they truly believe to be in the best interests of their constituents, even if it goes against the expressed will of their constituents in an advisory referendum.

What if a constituency voted for a motion to legalise murder, is their MP then duty bound to take up that cause?

Those constituencies voted for an MP at the general election, they don't get to dictate how that MP behaves whilst they're in office, but they can vote that MP out of office at the next general election.

That's how British democracy works, which I thought was the thing that Leavers were all so keen on upholding and preserving?

 

[Mr_Slot5]

That's literally what an MP's duty is, to represent what they truly believe to be in the best interests of their constituents, even if it goes against the expressed will of their constituents in an advisory referendum.

What if a constituency voted for a motion to legalise murder, is their MP then duty bound to take up that cause?

Those constituencies voted for an MP at the general election, they don't get to dictate how that MP behaves whilst they're in office, but they can vote that MP out of office at the next general election.

That's how British democracy works, which I thought was the thing that Leavers were all so keen on upholding and preserving?

Ridiculous. Going against the wishes of a majority, however slim that majority is, is dictatorship. 'Do as I say as for I know your interests better than you'. If leaving the EU was so damaging, the same MPs who are stifling negotiations should not have voted in favour of a referendum nor indeed voted for the triggering of article 50 in the first place ...

...If these MPs are as altruistic as you say, that is.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So British democratic institutions, their rules and regulations, and the duties of Members of Parliament, are 'ridiculous'?

That's how our system works, it's British democracy. Seriously, go and check it out, it's all written down.

I thought you Leaver folks were really keen on it, as opposed to all that authoritarian stuff being forced on us by the EU?

Wasn't the EU the dictatorship we were supposed to be escaping from, so that the UK Parliament could reign supreme?

 

[mack341]

This has been a Leave line of argument since before the referendum was even held, and it hasn't proven to be even remotely true at any stage.

If the 'German Car Manufacturers and French Wine Makers' are going to come to our rescue, they're leaving it until really, really, REALLY late in the day.

Also, kind of ironic that we need them to come to our rescue to force a trade deal when this was all supposed to be about 'Taking Back Control'.

It's as much coming to their own rescue, that was my point, to say they have no influence over the EU or don't mind tariffs themselves is surely wrong? [If they have no influence it would mean the EU was even more of a dictatorship, ignoring what's in its member's citizen's best interests]

Edit: my broader point is the economic health of europe is too precarious to impose tariffs on trade where they currently enjoy a surplus. Therefore their negotiating stance up to now has been based on bluff and a compliant remainer theresa may directing negotiations for us, she wanted to still keep us politically tied to europe as she's onboard with the 'project' ...the EU superstate. Wherein your democratic vote will have less influence than currently it does.

 

[mack341]

That's literally what an MP's duty is, to represent what they truly believe to be in the best interests of their constituents, even if it goes against the expressed will of their constituents in an advisory referendum.

There really wasn't much point in having a referendum, which parliament signed and agreed to, if the result was never going to be honoured, and with the obvious effect that the country's sense of democracy would be damaged in the process?

A bit disingenuous and dishonest of remainer mp's if that was their intention all along?

 

[Mr_Slot5]

There really wasn't much point in having a referendum, which parliament signed and agreed to, if the result was never going to be honoured?

A bit disingenuous and dishonest of remainer mp's if that was their intention all along?

There was much hubris that remain would win. No doubt about it, if remain HAD won, it would have been thrown in the face of anyone who even dared to suggest we should leave.

I doubt we'd have heard much about it not being legally binding.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

There really wasn't much point in having a referendum, which parliament signed and agreed to, if the result was never going to be honoured, and with the obvious effect that the country's sense of democracy would be damaged in the process?

A bit disingenuous and dishonest of remainer mp's if that was their intention all along?

Many of them had no idea that we'd end up with a kamikaze at the helm, who's refused to rule out proroguing parliament, to push through a suicidal No Deal Brexit against the will of the UK's ultimate seat of power, and against the will of the British public. (There is no majority for No Deal amongst the British public, and remaining in the EU has always tracked higher in the polls than leaving with No Deal. Remember, everyone was told we'd get 'the easiest deal in history', No Deal wasn't put on the table by even the most ardent Leavers in the early days.)

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[Harry_BKK]

This charles fella is really trying to control the narrative and layout the whole road map of future negotiations, is he related to nostradamus by any chance? We're not interested in extending the timeline, it's been blinking three years already.

Having watched a few videos recently regarding the 2008 economic crash and the sticking plasters that were applied and how volatile and fragile the underlying economic system is, I very much doubt the EU will insist on tariffs against a trade partner that they have a clear surplus with. For example "in 2017 germany exported 769,000 cars to the UK, its single largest export market. " [Also in 2009 the german government introduced a car scrapping scheme which cost them billions just to prop up car sales].

What germany says and wants counts for a lot in the EU upper echelons, then there's the french wine makers, the uk is the 2nd largest importer of french wine and spirits...these things matter as those two lobbies have political clout in france and germany.

civil service big wigs and think tanks can speculate as much as possible till the cows come home but there are costs to both sides in the event of a no deal therefore this makes a deal more likely not less likely.

Did you check how many cars the UK exported in the last years? Over 1.5 million/year. Now, when you leave with no deal and with no new trade deals yet in place with other importing countries, your cars will be significantly more expensive. The major carmakers have plenty of factories to simply shift part of their production to avoid those tariffs. Secondly, I am sure the rest who don't will be more than happy to jump into the void and sell more cars to your major markets. In essence, a lose-lose situation for your car industry.

No matter how you turn it mack, the entire Brexit won't be an easy feat.

 

[colinsunderland]

Did you check how many cars the UK exported in the last years? Over 1.5 million/year. Now, when you leave with no deal and with no new trade deals yet in place with other importing countries, your cars will be significantly more expensive. The major carmakers have plenty of factories to simply shift part of their production to avoid those tariffs. Secondly, I am sure the rest who don't will be more than happy to jump into the void and sell more cars to your major markets. In essence, a lose-lose situation for your car industry.

No matter how you turn it mack, the entire Brexit won't be an easy feat.

Exactly this. There have already been job losses, which 'never' have anything to do with Brexit, but funny how they happen after we said we were going to leave.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Exactly this. There have already been job losses, which 'never' have anything to do with Brexit, but funny how they happen after we said we were going to leave.

Colin, your car industry has been for decades a shadow of its glory days. IIRC, you had once over 300 car manufacturers in the UK. A real shame that such craftsmanship has been lost.

One of the main reasons, you got factories from Nissan/Toyota etc in the first place was the free access to the EU market. With that gone, there is less incentive for these "foreign" carmakers to stay.

They may have become household names in the UK and good employers but it reminds me of a Romanian saying: "Prieteni ca prieteni, dar brinza e pe bani". Translated: "Friends are friends, but the cheese still costs money". I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

 

[colinsunderland]

Colin, your car industry has been for decades a shadow of its glory days. IIRC, you had once over 300 car manufacturers in the UK. A real shame that such craftsmanship has been lost.

One of the main reasons, you got factories from Nissan/Toyota etc in the first place was the free access to the EU market. With that gone, there is less incentive for these "foreign" carmakers to stay.

They may have become household names in the UK and good employers but it reminds me of a Romanian saying: "Prieteni ca prieteni, dar brinza e pe bani". Translated: "Friends are friends, but the cheese still costs money". I hope you understand what I am trying to say.

I know, people forget they have jobs because of the EU. Loads of the lads at Nissan voted leave, cos the EU have done nothing for them. What, despite your very well paid job, thats paid for your house, nice car and lifestyle? People say, yeah but if they close the UK will create new jobs, well if thats the case, why do we have such a high unemployment rate, and why haven't they created these mystical jobs themselves since the shipyards and mines closed?

Reminds me of this

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[steveh35]

I did like Nigel Farage saying the new EU president is just what the UK needs a woman who believes in full intergration of the EU and combined EU state, if electing this German Europhile doesn't convince anyone of the EU's intention then nothing will.

 

[steveh35]

She is expected to appoint Spain's foreign minister as foreign affairs chief who wants the EU to declare Gibraltar a colony, anti Brexit Belgian PM is expected to be EU council boss

Ursula said in 2011 she said: “My goal is a united states of Euorpe based on the model of the federal states of Switzerland, Germany or the US.”

 

[mack341]

Many of them had no idea that we'd end up with a kamikaze at the helm, who's refused to rule out proroguing parliament, to push through a suicidal No Deal Brexit against the will of the UK's ultimate seat of power, and against the will of the British public. (There is no majority for No Deal amongst the British public, and remaining in the EU has always tracked higher in the polls than leaving with No Deal. Remember, everyone was told we'd get 'the easiest deal in history', No Deal wasn't put on the table by even the most ardent Leavers in the early days.)

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View attachment 111371

I'm just so disappointed degsy degsworth is a ardent remainer and EU fan [you didn't, by any chance, suffer a minor head injury or undergo hypnosis treatment in 2016? ]

I can accept someone being pro europe and liking the traditions/peoples/cultures of the various countries, that's probably where I am...but this EU project is alien to all that and will undermine it, especially re democracy and the will of the people actually meaning something...that's the clear direction it's heading in, gradually taking more power and sovereignty [decisions] away from the nation state's voters, once you bolt on an EU unified army, police force incl secret police..it's not something that whets my appetite, what was so wrong with a free trade area and leaving it at that, instead we have presidents and commissioners the public never voted for deciding matters of law/policy direction on non trade issues etc..

The remainer msm and elites are certainly getting in a panic about Bojo possibly proroguing parliament in order to honour a democratic referendum result.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

that's the clear direction it's heading in, gradually taking more power and sovereignty [decisions] away from the nation state's voters,

This is an important point, it's not actually the nation state's voters who get to make the decisions, the voters elect MPs to represent them in Parliament, and MPs make decisions based on their commitment to do the best things possible for their constituents and country.

We have a general election every few years, and the voters (me and you) get to choose once more who we want to represent us, if we didn't like what the last MP did, we get to cast a vote to choose a different one, or a different party.

There is no majority for No Deal in Parliament - (or indeed among the general public) - because a sufficient number of MPs genuinely believe that the economic and social damage will be so great that they cannot possibly countenance it. This is what those MPs were elected to do, they're getting death threats, they're the subject of endless abuse, and in many cases it's going to cost them their jobs at the next general election when they're voted out, but they're doing it anyway because they take the commitment they made to serve their constituents so seriously.

You're basically advocating mob rule here mack, which is to say, 'The people said they wanted something three years ago and the MPs should just do it irrespective of what they think the damage will be'. You're not actually arguing for the UK Parliament taking back control of anything, because they're doing just that right now and you're complaining about it, what you're actually arguing for is them implementing whatever 'the people' tell them to without critical thought or judgement applied to the process, at which point they effectively become irrelevant, which is the exact opposite thing Leave said they wanted. (Because the charge was, of course, that 'Brussels' was forever subjugating the UK Parliament with all its diktats and rules we had no say in.)

If the current UK Parliament won't pass the result of the referendum, then our democratic processes should ensure that the voters of the UK will be so incensed that at the next general election they'll all get kicked out, and a collection of parties and MPs will be returned who'll get the job done.

That's literally British democracy in action, completely free of interference from Brussels.

Isn't that what Leave wanted all along?

 

[goatwack]

MPs and politicians in general are to do what the people tell them, they're elected servants to the populace, not the other way round. Seeing them wrestle decisions away from a democratic process to protect their self-interests makes a mockery of Parliament, no?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

MPs and politicians in general are to do what the people tell them, they're elected servants to the populace, not the other way round. Seeing them wrestle decisions away from a democratic process to protect their self-interests makes a mockery of Parliament, no?

But if they're just going to do what people tell them, what's the point of even having them in the first place? You could simply remove them from the system altogether if they're basically just supposed to be a rubber stamp.

There'll be another democratic process along in due course, it's called a general election, and if enough people in the UK don't like how the current incumbent MPs have handled things, they will be removed from office.

Have a read of this, and get back to me when you find the bit that says 'MPs should do what people tell them' -

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[mack341]

...it's not actually the nation state's voters who get to make the decisions, the voters elect MPs to represent them in Parliament, and MPs make decisions based on their commitment to do the best things possible for their constituents and country.

Other than sudden unpredicted events requiring snap decisions, the parties layout their policy intentions and commitments in the form of a manifesto prior to election, so indirectly [one step away] we should have a decisive role on the decisions/direction of parliament. We know in reality it doesn't always work out that way, and politicians of all hues have been losing the public's trust over many years for failed promises and incompetence.

If you're really in favour of the EU and trust the judgement/values of its leaders, why not just do away with the HOC and uk democracy? What real need is there for it alongside a much better superstate parliament and government in brussels etc..?

You're basically advocating mob rule here mack

That's a bit of a leap, on the back of a referendum which most of the same remainer mp's legislated for and gave to us..but they didn't like the result so it's now the middle finger presented. You end up getting mob rule when elected politicians think they're infact overlords, the biased speaker bercow is a classic example, he should be a p/t court jester instead of presiding over parliament.

 

[goatwack]

But if they're just going to do what people tell them, what's the point of even having them in the first place? You could simply remove them from the system altogether if they're basically just supposed to be a rubber stamp.

There'll be another democratic process along in due course, it's called a general election, and if enough people in the UK don't like how the current incumbent MPs have handled things, they will be removed from office.

Have a read of this, and get back to me when you find the bit that says 'MPs should do what people tell them' -

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I guess we have rather opposing views on what the democratic process actually means. In your case it's only valid if you get the result you favour

 

[Mr_Slot5]

I guess we have rather opposing views on what the democratic process actually means. In your case it's only valid if you get the result you favour

Yes I'd love to know what his response would be had remain won yet parliament (in their better wisdom) were trying to force through Brexit. Pretty sure he wouldn't be arguing the same point then.

Democracy always has and always will be favoured by the particular group of people that make up the majority of that particular instance. It's human nature to not want to lose.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes I'd love to know what his response would be had remain won yet parliament (in their better wisdom) were trying to force through Brexit. Pretty sure he wouldn't be arguing the same point then.

Ahhh so you've now added mind reading to your list of abilities as well!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I guess we have rather opposing views on what the democratic process actually means. In your case it's only valid if you get the result you favour

No I actually quoted to you what the roles and responsibilities of MPs are. You're just making stuff up.

(You didn't have anything to with the number £350M on the side of a bus, did you?)

 

[Mr_Slot5]

Ahhh so you've now added mind reading to your list of abilities as well!

View attachment 111391

Aye, you'd be surprised at my lengthy list of talents