New Slot Announcement Bonanza by Big Time Gaming

[snorky510238]

Well it’s a fact that Bonanza at VS, plays nothing like it did before the major gimping took place.

I could regularly get a session where I could hit 5 or 6 bonus rounds. Those would come around roughly every 5 sessions. Since then I have had literally hundreds of sessions and I could count on one hand the times I have seen 5 bonus rounds.

The version VS are running is amongst the absolute worst, on par with Sky and that’s saying something. The bonus frequency has been changed dramatically.

I am also convinced that different Casinos have a different limit exposure. I have had many, many big hits on every site I played, with the exception of VS and Sky. I’ve only ever had a couple of decent base hits and from literally hundreds of bonus rounds, around x500 is my best, with nothing else much over x200.

I have done thousands of spins there and my rtp is 94.79%. Well below the expected and has been declining over the past year. I am not convinced with doing more spins will bring expected rtp. Every game I play a huge amount of spins on seems to do the opposite and just stagnate after a certain time.

The other thing I can never get away from is this. If it’s possible (and we know it is) to get a session where your rtp is 40% for example. Then how in the name of god, is the rtp always within a couple of percent of where it should be?

If it’s possible to have sessions that pay, 40%, 65% or 120%, then it’s beyond a miracle UNLESS YOUR GAME IS TOTALLY CONTROLLED AND UNIQUE TO YOURSELF. That your rtp is always somewhere near.

The only conceivable argument is, well, it’s the law of averages. But, the law of averages doesn’t come into gambling. You can be unlucky every single time or lucky every time (in theory) but no, with online gambling you get a near perfect mixed balance.

Try playing at a B and M Casino, your results will be nothing like the same. Rtp would be all over the place because in a real Casino the luck element is NOT controlled.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The other thing I can never get away from is this. If it’s possible (and we know it is) to get a session where your rtp is 40% for example. Then how in the name of god, is the rtp always within a couple of percent of where it should be?

If it’s possible to have sessions that pay, 40%, 65% or 120%, then it’s beyond a miracle UNLESS YOUR GAME IS TOTALLY CONTROLLED AND UNIQUE TO YOURSELF. That your rtp is always somewhere near.

The only conceivable argument is, well, it’s the law of averages. But, the law of averages doesn’t come into gambling. You can be unlucky every single time or lucky every time (in theory) but no, with online gambling you get a near perfect mixed balance.

This shows such a fundamental misunderstanding of randomness, mathematics, the law of averages and the law of large numbers, that I'm slightly amazed you can have been playing Bonanza (or any other online slots) for so long and still not grasped how this stuff works.

You are going to lose your money over time. End of. And ultimately you will lose it at a rate dictated by the house edge, which in the case of Bonanza, is 4%. The greater the house edge, the quicker you will, on average, lose your money. The higher the RTP, the longer your money will last, Book Of 99 (99% RTP, still on the books at Rizk), will take your money off you far slower, but it will always do it eventually.

You could have a bankroll of a billion pounds, start playing a slot with an RTP of 99.99% on 10p spins, and eventually you'll be skint. It'll take a long time, but it'll get there in the end, and guess what, your RTP at the end of it would be exactly 99.99%.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

P.S. If those stats are right and authenticated, it would be great ammunition for the foil hatters and conspiracy theorists. In fact, I would even find it hard to explain away rationally. I agree with @ChopleyIOM TBH.

dunover creates a rift in the space time continuum.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Dazza’s RTP over the last 2 years since he started uploading his ‘series’ must be in the high 100’s. What is it now since said series begun in April 21? About 15-20k in profit. This without a hit of even 1000x and yes blah blah he’s probably still down on the game as you would expect overall.

So if you can be that spawny for 2 years solid, why do you find it hard to believe that you can’t run so shit for what is a measily amount of spins in comparison?

Just because in your tiny amount of experience on the game you’ve witnessed fairly moderate base game play it doesn’t mean that the 70% odd that is contributed from the base can’t run at half that for a few months.

I’m telling you it can!! It’s harsh and no doubt very rare. But then so is somebody winning for 2 years solid.

Both seem almost unbelievable don’t they?

 

[Schind]

I've been recording 90,000 spins now. There are a few things that fly in the face of randomness in my opinion. When I was doing 1000+ spins every day there was the pattern that I went over 1000 spins between bonuses every five days, and only every five days. And my average bonus when GOLD came in after 1000 spins is only 52.81 although I'll admit that's only a small sample of 21. I don't see that now as my play has become more random (genuinely random, not pseudo!). People have been mentioning low multipliers after thousands of spins since the beginning of this thread.

Another thing that's been talked about for years how, after going that long without a bonus, you often get another one in very soon afterwards. Of those 21 bonuses, my next one came in within 50 spins nine times. To my mind this must be programmed, ie the game has long stints with fewer GOLDs given out and then makes up for it by lumping a few together. The thing is, how many people are playing this game at any one time? 1000? 2000? More? Are we all experiencing the same thing at the same time or is it casino related?

How come the bonus multiplier awarded follows the same trend as the amount of spins it takes to get there? Again, this must be programmed.
Early on in my counting I was getting GOLD very often. On December 25th for example I was averaging every 285 spins but my average bonus multiplier was only 57.47. Now my average is one every 460 spins but my average win has gone up to 88x. Chart below. Blue line is number of spins, red line is multiplier awarded (x5 to show correlation).

My session RTPs are remarkably consistent for something allegedly so random. Loads in the 61-66% range, loads in the 81-86% range (basically the same as the 60's but with a bonus) and then the big ones over 120%. Very few actually around 96%. Again, not random in my view but one of three or more 'states' the game is in at any one time. I'm currently on 95.62% overall which is within the realms of reasonableness.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

On another note…..

My Mrs has finally decided to quit smoking (she stopped on Monday) and I volunteered to also quit depositing at online casinos while she keeps it up.

So Sunday after taking a a week long beating at ladbrokes to the tune of about a grand, I decided I’d play for one last feature on min stake. Cost about £40 (200x) which was very cheap based on my absolute brains the week before.

Here is the result…. Just a final ‘fuck you’ to see me on my way. Thanks for the 10 dead spins you vile cunt of a game!!!!

The Mrs has still not had a fag and I’ve still not deposited at time of writing!!!!!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I've been recording 90,000 spins now. There are a few things that fly in the face of randomness in my opinion. When I was doing 1000+ spins every day there was the pattern that I went over 1000 spins between bonuses every five days, and only every five days. And my average bonus when GOLD came in after 1000 spins is only 52.81 although I'll admit that's only a small sample of 21. I don't see that now as my play has become more random (genuinely random, not pseudo!). People have been mentioning low multipliers after thousands of spins since the beginning of this thread.

Another thing that's been talked about for years how, after going that long without a bonus, you often get another one in very soon afterwards. Of those 21 bonuses, my next one came in within 50 spins nine times. To my mind this must be programmed, ie the game has long stints with fewer GOLDs given out and then makes up for it by lumping a few together. The thing is, how many people are playing this game at any one time? 1000? 2000? More? Are we all experiencing the same thing at the same time or is it casino related?

How come the bonus multiplier awarded follows the same trend as the amount of spins it takes to get there? Again, this must be programmed.
Early on in my counting I was getting GOLD very often. On December 25th for example I was averaging every 285 spins but my average bonus multiplier was only 57.47. Now my average is one every 460 spins but my average win has gone up to 88x. Chart below. Blue line is number of spins, red line is multiplier awarded (x5 to show correlation).

My session RTPs are remarkably consistent for something allegedly so random. Loads in the 61-66% range, loads in the 81-86% range (basically the same as the 60's but with a bonus) and then the big ones over 120%. Very few actually around 96%. Again, not random in my view but one of three or more 'states' the game is in at any one time. I'm currently on 95.62% overall which is within the realms of reasonableness.

So you played loads of spins on a random game with a 4% house edge and finished up very close to expected results.

CONCLUSION - Game is rigged.

 

[bamberfishcake]

On another note…..

My Mrs has finally decided to quit smoking (she stopped on Monday) and I volunteered to also quit depositing at online casinos while she keeps it up.

So Sunday after taking a a week long beating at ladbrokes to the tune of about a grand, I decided I’d play for one last feature on min stake. Cost about £40 (200x) which was very cheap based on my absolute brains the week before.

Here is the result…. Just a final ‘fuck you’ to see me on my way. Thanks for the 10 dead spins you vile cunt of a game!!!!

The Mrs has still not had a fag and I’ve still not deposited at time of writing!!!!!

View attachment 181398

Good luck to you and the missus. I wish I never started smoking, still a little in love with slots though

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Not a smoker myself, but more than happy to bin off slots while the Mrs try’s to drop the fags.

We both spend to much time doing our respective ‘hobbies’ so it’s win win.

 

[snorky510238]

This shows such a fundamental misunderstanding of randomness, mathematics

Randomness in its true entity dictates that your rtp would be extremely unlikely to hit the expected rtp. When will people realise the true meaning of the word?

You cannot mix randomness with anything that dictates, contrives or influences an outcome. Take live (not electronic) roulette, which is about as random as you can get, as an example. How many players would hit the expected rtp? Out of 1,000 players I doubt 100 would hit it.

Yet when supposedly playing a random slot, everyone hits it. Just doesn’t stack up.

 

[mack341]

So you played loads of spins on a random game with a 4% house edge and finished up very close to expected results.

CONCLUSION - Game is rigged.

I think the issue is more how a random game can swoon over you for months & months like you're George Clooney and then suddenly change and you're now treated like albert steptoe for over a year, with no sign of the previous success returning.

 

[brianmon]

Randomness in its true entity dictates that your rtp would be extremely unlikely to hit the expected rtp. When will people realise the true meaning of the word?

You cannot mix randomness with anything that dictates, contrives or influences an outcome. Take live (not electronic) roulette, which is about as random as you can get, as an example. How many players would hit the expected rtp? Out of 1,000 players I doubt 100 would hit it.

Yet when supposedly playing a random slot, everyone hits it. Just doesn’t stack up.

That might depend on how many spins of a live wheel they could achieve in, say 24 hours, and how much each player's stakes varied.
A UK player (playing at 2.5 seconds between spins), usually playing at the same stake, or at least the same stake for extended periods would achieve 5760 spins in 24 hours.
So it's probably not comparable.

Although, I am on your side, lol

 

[snorky510238]

Timeframe is irrelevant though Bri. It makes no difference how long it takes to complete the spins, only the results.

 

[Schind]

So you played loads of spins on a random game with a 4% house edge and finished up very close to expected results.

CONCLUSION - Game is rigged.

I didn't say it was rigged. I said it wasn't random.
Two separate things. Rigged implies there's something foul going on to give a casino an unfair advantage whereas I'm suggesting this game is programmed in a certain way which is contrary to what we're always told about these slots.

Does randomness explain the chart I posted?

 

[Jono777]

Random:

It is amazing how I randomly lose a lot more than I win, a lot more than 4% FWIW

It is also amazing how playing the same games I randomly lose a lot more in recent times and faster than before when apparently "Nothing has changed"

I could go on but won't

*Insert 100x *

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Randomness in its true entity dictates that your rtp would be extremely unlikely to hit the expected rtp. When will people realise the true meaning of the word?

You cannot mix randomness with anything that dictates, contrives or influences an outcome. Take live (not electronic) roulette, which is about as random as you can get, as an example. How many players would hit the expected rtp? Out of 1,000 players I doubt 100 would hit it.

Yet when supposedly playing a random slot, everyone hits it. Just doesn’t stack up.

But that's exactly what randomness will do, people falsely conflate randomness with not being able to predict what will eventually happen.

Live roulette, for example, literally relies on true randomness for the casino the make its profit, its house edge is baked into the mathematics of the wheel, same as it is for an online slot. Yes a player might have good or bad sessions, but ultimately he's going to end up exactly where the RTP of the wheel he's playing on dictates. (Which in the case of European single zero roulette is 97.3%.)

Let's take it down to the absolute basics, a flip of a coin, you flip a coin 1000 times you're going to be incredibly close to 500 heads and 500 tails, every single time, because there are only two possible outcomes. I can tell you that with total certainty, even though the results of the flips are completely random. (It's possible to tell if a 50/50 gamble is rigged with an incredibly small sample size.)

An online slot is, in essence, the same concept but with a massively larger pool of results, but in the end, random chance will get you precisely to T-RTP, which means you're going to lose money in the end.

Now you can argue the specifics about Bonanza as much as you want, but at a conceptual and indeed mathematical level, that's how this stuff works, and that's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact.

 

[snorky510238]

An online slot is, in essence, the same concept but with a massively larger pool of results, but in the end, random chance will get you precisely to T-RTP, which means you're going to lose money in the end.

And as I keep saying. With a massively larger pool of results to achieve the mean average, you would need to do millions of spins. If there are 150,000 outcomes, doing 150,000 spins doesn’t mean you’ll hit one of each. It would be reasonable to assume there are millions of possibilities on a game such as Bonanza so the chances of being bang on rtp are virtually zero.

Your theory of flipping a coin which is as basic as you can get, would more often than not, fail to hit rtp. Say heads is win, tails is loose.

So the rtp is 50%. Flip that coin in batches of a thousand and see how often you are bang on the 50%. You would hardly ever be. Now get a thousand players to do batches of 1,000 flips. Some might hit the exact rtp granted but I guarantee even with only 2 outcomes you would get more players that would not be bang on 50%.

Now try the same theory with Bonanza that has god knows how many outcomes and you will see where I am coming from.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

And as I keep saying. With a massively larger pool of results to achieve the mean average, you would need to do millions of spins. If there are 150,000 outcomes, doing 150,000 spins doesn’t mean you’ll hit one of each. It would be reasonable to assume there are millions of possibilities on a game such as Bonanza so the chances of being bang on rtp are virtually zero.

Your theory of flipping a coin which is as basic as you can get, would more often than not, fail to hit rtp. Say heads is win, tails is loose.

So the rtp is 50%. Flip that coin in batches of a thousand and see how often you are bang on the 50%. You would hardly ever be. Now get a thousand players to do batches of 1,000 flips. Some might hit the exact rtp granted but I guarantee even with only 2 outcomes you would get more players that would not be bang on 50%.

Now try the same theory with Bonanza that has god knows how many outcomes and you will see where I am coming from.

I've done this one before (link and screenshot below).

I'm saying this as politely as I can snorky, but you're just not getting your head around how this stuff works, in fairness it's not entirely unusual. For example the refrain of 'How can it have an RTP if it's random?' is quite common, but again, it means those people don't grasp how randomness works, particularly when combined with the law of large numbers, which is pretty much what online slots rely on.

How do you think land-based casinos managed before the age of electronics? Their boffins crunched the numbers and worked out what random chance would deliver to them as a house edge over a very large number of game rounds, and if they wanted to increase their house edge, they'd tweak the games, such as adding a second 0 to the wheel on American roulette. True randomness absolutely can and will deliver some entirely predictable results with enough of a sample, and in this case, RTP is one of them.

This is why both dunover and I have called out the Bonanza stats on the previous page as being wrong, they are too far outside of expected results to be achievable in normal play, if I were ritae I'd be asking VS to pull those stats directly from the backend for me.

Bonanza by Big Time Gaming - Page 825 - Casinomeister Forum

 

[snorky510238]

So are you saying, there is a tracker built into the system that is always aware of your current rtp and over a period will guarantee to balance it out? If not, then you are right, I don’t get how rtp will balance out.

Let’s go back to single zero roulette. Do 37,000 spins, 74,000 spins or whatever amount you choose. There will never ever be a point (or at least next to an impossible chance), that all the numbers will be hit equally.

For example, if you did 37,000 spins that all the numbers would be hit a thousand times. So if you got 37 players each betting a different single number, some would be well ahead of rtp and some well behind, with perhaps a few meeting the expected rtp. Even if you did a trillion spins it would be next to impossible to mark a cut off point where each number had been hit equally. The theory says it should happen but random dictates that it won’t.

 

[brianmon]

But T-RTP is the amount of return for the game as a whole entity. It's not what a player can expect to achieve, neither is it what a particular casino can expect to achieve. It's just a guide for the casino.

A game like Bonanza is tested over 10 billion spins or more.

A single player, playing for 8 hours a day, every day, for a year could only achieve 4.2 million spins.
It would take 2380 years to achieve 10 billion spins, based on 8 hours play a day.
Or 2380 players, playing for 8 hours a day, every day for a year.

The overall TRTP should then be the same as (or very close to) the stated TRTP for those 10 billion spins.
But there are still likely to be differences between the RTP of each of those 2380 players.
They may have to play those 8 hours a day for 10 or 20 years for the individual RTPs to become more level.

So, Bonanza as a game will probably be running at its 96% OVERALL. But there's still going to be quite a lot of variation between players, and possibly even between casinos.

That's assuming everything IS completely random (not that I'm saying it isn't)

 

[ChopleyIOM]

For example, if you did 37,000 spins that all the numbers would be hit a thousand times. So if you got 37 players each betting a different single number, some would be well ahead of rtp and some well behind, with perhaps a few meeting the expected rtp. Even if you did a trillion spins it would be next to impossible to mark a cut off point where each number had been hit equally. The theory says it should happen but random dictates that it won’t.

Honestly snorky, random dictates that it absolutely will happen eventually.

To go back to the coin again, here's a site that simulates a true 50/50 coin flip, have a play with it yourself, look what happens the more samples you generate, the closer it gets to true 50/50 (as dictated by randomness and the law of large numbers), whilst often starting out with large swings when the sample size is small (volatility). A random slot is, if you really bring it down to absolute brass tacks, a 'coin flip' with billions of possible results, and an baked-in house edge of whatever the game in question pays to the casino, which in Bonanza's case is 4%.

First thousand flips, note the variance in results early on, but even by 1000 flips it's very close to 50/50.

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Give it another thousand flips....



By the time you get to 10,000 flips....



And by 17,000 flips we're basically at a perfect 50/50 distribution, achieved entirely by true randomness.



Scale that out to roulette, and you'll get to near perfect distribution too, although your sample size will need to be larger because there are far more possible results.

An online slot will do the same, every single player will get to T-RTP eventually, be it on Bonanza or DOA2 or whatever, absolutely guaranteed, although in some cases the sample size will have to be very large.

But to go back to my point above, even by 100,000 spins you'll be pretty close on any slot, and at one million spins you'll be mostly bang on, because so much of the RTP, even on very volatile slots, is in small and mid-sized wins. The monsters are real outliers and don't have a massive impact on overall RTP.

 

[TheAddict]

my record for coinflips in 5+ mill hands of poker is really, really bad. Obv cannot give a number but I'll just say, holy shit!. and leave it there. my previous 50 or so all ins on cash games when around 45-55% as the cards turn over, have lost at a absolute minimum, 35 times.
I also used to do paper rock scissors with a m8 to decide who does the stupid thing of the day that neither wanted to do. never even won 1 shot in 3 years, best of 5? yeah, lose 3-0 everytime.

Some people are simply just born unlucky

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Should have clicked forward on the coin flip site above a bit more, here's one that does the roll of a die, so we've got six possible results instead of two, what is a roulette wheel except a die with more results?

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Randomness will achieve perfect distribution eventually.

First 1000 rolls and you can see it remains volatile for longer, but is mostly settled down by the end of 1000 rolls.


By 25,000 rolls it's bang on. A roulette wheel would be exactly the same, but you'd need a bigger sample size. An online slot will do exactly the same, but you'll need a (much!) bigger sample size.

 

[snorky510238]

Should have clicked forward on the coin flip site above a bit more, here's one that does the roll of a die, so we've got six possible results instead of two, what is a roulette wheel expect a die with more results?

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Randomness will achieve perfect distribution eventually.

First 1000 rolls and you can see it remains volatile for longer, but is mostly settled down by the end of 1000 rolls.

View attachment 181433
By 25,000 rolls it's bang on. A roulette wheel would be exactly the same, but you'd need a bigger sample size. An online slot will do exactly the same, but you'll need a (much!) bigger sample size.

View attachment 181434

Are these BTG resources by any chance.

Yes, fair enough, I see where your coming from. The thing is, the examples we are talking about have fixed outcomes.

If Bonanza was truly random then the outcomes to an extent would be inexhaustible and unknown so you would either have to say rtp is unknown or rtp can be expected after 1 billion spins.

If you factor in the “unlimited multiplier” with the amount of different reel positions possible it should come to an incredible amount of scenarios UNLESS of course the outcome of the bonus rounds are predetermined, which lets be honest, they are.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

The bonus rounds aren’t predetermined tho.

Like the gates reel set in DHV you are playing with bent reel strips that limit your chance of a big hit.

Each spin is random but your playing with a loaded deck to give the outcome more control.

Nothing like a coin or dice toss. So not comparible.

The loaded deck in bonanzas bonus round is the shitty ways, the gem configuration on the top and the bottom reels along with the blocking scatters. This is how the ‘random’ call for each spin is controlled.

Technically random but with a more controlled outcome.

BTG use the same method in most of their games.