Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged?

[SKUNX]

!

Phynqster / Listen we are all in the business to make money either as a player or as a casino rep , and the house always win thats all I can say.

Some can say they beat the house .. but like a close family friend said once " the house doesnt beat the player it gives him the oppurtunity to beat himself "

This is why I have a job and its a good one I cant complaint.

I dont play at Bodog honestly because I just cant seem to beat them and I do not feel comfortable depositing there i feel like im giving my money away .

You know back in the day when some of my relatives in NY ran a brick op in Astoria they would let some suckers win cause the best thing that can happen to any of us that work in the industry is when a small player wins you can turn a $10 bettor into a $1000 degenarate just by giving a little and people beware because thats what I do and im damn good at it !!!!

 

[phynqster]

You made me laugh out loud at that post. You are 100% right. That is why the high bonus casinos work, they make a 10.00 per hand player into a 100.00 per hand player because of the big bonus.

My favorite part of on line gaming is everyone plays till they cash out or loose their money. I have only seen a very small % that leave the money in their account till they hit certain limits.

Remember I do not play or manage anymore, I just enjoy observing

 

[casinocide]

Philosophical Anchor

You know back in the day when some of my relatives in NY ran a brick op in Astoria they would let some suckers win cause the best thing that can happen to any of us that work in the industry is when a small player wins you can turn a $10 bettor into a $1000 degenarate just by giving a little and people beware because thats what I do and im damn good at it !!!!

What a wonderfully principled piece of self adulation that is. Very accurate too, in my estimation. How many people here, especially those directly involved in the industry on the supply side, agree with this? How about you CM? Is this type of statement representative of all the folks who run web casinos and affiliate sites? If not, why don't you all explain to me how your philosophy materially differs from that above mentioned. Try not to get too euphamistic either. A "quaint little two story in need of some good ole T.L.C" is one way to describe a Woodward Ave crack house, but it ain't gonna fool the locals.

 

[liquidsoap]

kasinoking, the other day, brought up the homophone annoyance of confusing loser/looser, and i have to say that confusing accept/except is a much more massive mistake (like my little alliteration?). they are almost opposites; accept means to welcome or embrace, where except means to leave out or exclude.

so just except it, your a looser man i kill me sometimes :notworthy

Everyone makes mistakes, people are not writing an essay.
Besides, its easier to read mistakes like accept/except and loser/looser then it is to read people who do not use capital letters. I used to type like that until I learned how unreadable it actually was.

tencard & thetic: using lowercase and committing spelling errors are a speed issue

Sorry I did not realize it took that long to hit shift.


On a side note, I did fairly well at bodogs blackjack.

 

[gobucs]

When I asked Bodog for the 1000th time about any recent tests done on their software to assure fairness, they finally admitted that there had not been any testing since 2005! When I asked how that could be possible, they disabled my account. Probably did me a favor, but it seemed like customer service was great until I started asking questions.
Is this a lawless industry or what? In a multi-billion dollar industry that hinges on software that could easily be manipulated by people and/or computers located overseas; is there no protection for the player? Am I helpless because I'm in the US? Do these cheaters answer to noone?
So can anyone tell me where a US player can find a fair game of Blackjack online? I love the game, but I'm starting to think I'll never find a fair game online.

 

[tennis_balls]

Everyone makes mistakes, people are not writing an essay.
Besides, its easier to read mistakes like accept/except and loser/looser then it is to read people who do not use capital letters.

SOAPY, THAT'S ENTIRELY UNEXCEPTABLE!

I ALWAYS NEW YOU WERE A LOOSER!

 

[winbig]

then it is to read people

<english police>

Than it is to - not "then".

 

[liquidsoap]

<english police>

Than it is to - not "then".

Ahhhh, go lose your money at poker!
Or bodogs (rigged?) blackjack!

 

[SKUNX]

TO QUOTE CASINOCIDE What a wonderfully principled piece of self adulation that is. Very accurate too, in my estimation. How many people here, especially those directly involved in the industry on the supply side, agree with this? How about you CM? Is this type of statement representative of all the folks who run web casinos and affiliate sites? If not, why don't you all explain to me how your philosophy materially differs from that above mentioned.

See ill let you in on my OWN point of view its gotten me places in the industry and I can now afford to pick my jobs but heres the deal with casinos..or gambling
In most cases Im selling you a dream that with $20 youll be able to win thousands of $$$ which is possible by all means but the odds are in the houses favor of course , now when an astute operator like 32red etc have a big jackpot winner they market it till tommorow for 2 reasons .
1. they have to encourage people to deposit back with them to build up the pot
2. You can ask any casino operator at least any that pay these big winnings how their sign ups increase after such a win..

Now when you are sellin something to people such as gamblers it must be what I call a " gut " sale all about emotion ...so if you can sell someone a dream you can pretty much put your hand in their pocket without them even noticing .

Then we arrive to another type of player the one that really doesnt think they are ever gonna cashout .. or really dont care if they lose just looking for a good time and a good bonus to get their daily fun in ( these people feed the casino and they build casinos)
See some people in my line of work look down upon on a $50 depositor everyday I call them fools.... $50 a day isnt gonna ever take you for a win big at least not by the odds but look at this :
$50 a day x 365 days a year = $18250 a year NOW take 100 players like that which isnt much at all and guess what you just made over a $1.5 million....
So yes I back up my post that the best thing that could happen to me is that one of my players hit for a nice amount .... then I hooked them
Can ANYBODY in this board say they are not eager to go the casino that they won nice at ? or that the one they have better luck in?

PS. I would like to add that I am gambler myself to much for my own good and my own pocket but hey Im just chasing my own dream...:xxx

 

[casinocide]

The way it was worded originally made it sound like you were just after out of control compulsives, which is, whether your strategy or not, I beleive what most web casinos try to do to at least some degree. I don't have much respect for this industry. That said I'm no preacher, much less a saint, so even though I view gambling as a sort of dirty vice-based trade I certainly have no mandate to call out those who do it (run casinos) for a living or who profit from it, and I don't think anyone else really has a right to tell those who choose it as their profession to go do something else either. Still there are lines even you guys should draw. Actively going after people with mental illnesses is not ok even in this biz.

I don't feel bad about taking casinos for a ride or two and I don't feel bad when casinos take me for one either. That's because we're both well informed, we understand the rules of the game, and we're worthy adversaries for each other. The case of casinos and most of their patrons, in my view, is different. Casinos are experts at the games they play. Their ideal patrons are complete novices who know nothing. Is a turkey shoot really sport? You're not in for the sport though, right? You're in it for the profit.

I suppose it just depends on how you view it. There's no question that online gambling to a large degree is the business of deception or as you say "selling dreams". And what are dreams but illusions?

I once dealt cards in a casino. I would say that most of the patrons, although they may state that they gamble "for fun", in the back of their heads have the idea that a big win is possible and more than that, it is the purpose for playing. Most of the customers are completely ignorant of basic statistics and probability. Most of the customers are superstitious and follow illogical strategies to attempt to thwart those basic statistical laws.

Selling delusions.

Although the gambler may state that his primary motivation is to "have fun" and casinos certainly tote that line with no complaint, categorizing themselves as "entertainment", the primary motivation of the gambler is the possiblilty of the big win. So really, although they may state that "having fun" is their primary motivation, it is actually secondary to the possiblity of hitting a jackpot or producing a large win. This motivation itself is illogical because the sum of the small losses will considerably outweigh any big wins that may occur. But it becomes totally delusional when the typical gambler cites illogical or superstitious reasons as to why the necessary outcome of small losses exceeding the value of big wins can be circumvented. In this sense it is only vast ignorance of basic mathematical truths that keeps the typical gambler playing. The perception of "entertainment" is merely a side-effect of the primary motivation of racking up a big win. Money for nothin. Delusion sold.

So in casino gambling it is the perfectly acceptable status quo to actively and intentionally do what would end any Wall Street investment banker in prison for 20 years, that is, intentionally leading predisposed customers, those who lack sufficient understanding in the field, to delude themselves into believing absurd contradictions of universal truths. And casinos accomplish this through considerable forethought and sophistication by means of their marketing efforts. The end result is of course profits for the casino and it's affiliates.

If Robin Hood had existed on an antimatter Earth, he may well have been a casino owner. "To deceive the poor into giving more to the already rich" is not a slogan I would particulary want hung anywhere in my office, and I wonder who would. Sometimes for the salesman, the most important customer is themselves.

 

[SKUNX]

All I have to say is that theres a sucker born every minute and i have many a times been that sucker.. I think anybody thats been gambling for years has been at some point .

I will stay with my post that explains how some players dont play to win .. because ive seen them myself... tell me XXXX I dont want to cashout too much of a hassle cant I just leave it in there and anybody thats been around in the industry knows that there are many customers like this.

Its a gut sell because you chase the dragon why when people win $5000 when they deposited $100 dont cashout? ... because of their " gut " feeling that they can win more .

Thanks for your response I enjoyed this debate.

 

[lojo]

I've done something like that many times, Skunx. Mainly at RTG, I'll meet the wagering requirements and instead of actually cashing out the 10x max I'll ask to have it manually redeposited and apply another coupon. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

 

[vinylweatherman]

"but not only that they ASK YOU which games you want to be able to be the most easily beatble games so you may market your casino on that note."

Sorry guy, I agree with most of what you say about the industry, but this statement is something I have never seen or been privie to. I have the CEO on my instant messenger and have spoken with him as guys have been winning over 5 and 6 figuries and he could not do anything to stop the run. Yes we would knock the player off line for a few minutes or change the number of decks, but we could not change the edge.

I do have a theroy though, if the house edge is set to say 2%, in hands won /loss not money won. And you have very good players playing optimal stratagy playing 1 dollar a hand, and loosing at only a 1% rate,and playing many hands. Than you have a player who is playing 1k per hand he may be loosing at a 4% rate to even out the total house EV to the 2%.
So it would go to figure a player winning 25k in a short period of time the rest of the casino will be loosing at a great clip till the % get back to normal.

Changing the number of decks is not cheating, however this "if the house edge is set to say 2%, in hands won /loss not money won", implies that the cards are dealt non-randomly in order to control the number of hands won by the player against those won by the dealer. If all these changes can be done "on the fly", this comes close to, if not spot on, the definition of "cheating casino software".
If this is the case, and RTG casinos are doing this, then they deserve those "thieving, cheating, players" they seem to attract.
If they are getting hammered, perhaps they are getting hammered by players who know not only that RTG are cheating, but how they are doing it, and how to tell. Perhaps the infamous "cipher" system really DOES work in some RTG Blackjack games, as it can identify by "trend analysis" the circumstances and direction of the "cheat switch".

 

[phynqster]

I had a player who won their max win, 1200, but still wanted to play and could not get their credit card through so decided to play the 1200 and lost everything back.
With this customer I actually gave her the 1200 back, because in this case she was not gambling and could not win money and only lose. She was so happy she decided to become a 500 depositer instead of 100 so her max cash out was bigger. Last I saw from her was a 500 deposit on average of of 5 nights a week and never 1 single cash out, over a 2 year period.

 

[phynqster]

Perhaps the infamous "cipher" system really DOES work in some RTG Blackjack games, as it can identify by "trend analysis" the circumstances and direction of the "cheat switch".

I agree with this 100% except the cheat switch. The operator can not turn it on and off, but it does all balance in the end.
I was at a casino where the employes wouled play with "real" money in the casino. I had to explain that one reason players winning more often than it seemed they should, was that the employees were losing SO MUCH money and playing so badly, the software would compensate and have more winners than normal. This was not RTG software, but I am pretty sure they all must work the same way.

 

[SKUNX]

I agree 100% with Phynqster and we have some common employment places in the past so ive seen it too.

Trust me I lost $150k of real money one night ( told you guys i was a gambler ) lol
anyways and then the tables got " loose" .

ps. I got suspended for a day .. damn that Blackjack

 

[GrandMaster]

I was at a casino where the employes wouled play with "real" money in the casino. I had to explain that one reason players winning more often than it seemed they should, was that the employees were losing SO MUCH money and playing so badly, the software would compensate and have more winners than normal.

In other words, the software was rigged. If the software is fair, then the results of one set of players will not affect the others.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Well, if RTG software really is rigged in some way to exert such broad scale control over what should be unconnected random game events, they had better start banning the Brits, not the Dutch.
We have had "Fruit Machines" like this for years, long before RTG ever existed. Fruit Machines, despite a 25% to 30% house edge, were regularly hammered because of the "tells" in the non-random software. Novice players paid for this with play nearer to a 60% house edge (unless they got lucky and/or played so long they got the whole cycle).

Just as in phynqster's earlier employment, these pro players who watched machines for the cycle "tells" while the novice played were referred to as "sharks", and this lead to the verb "to shark", as applied to a Fruit Machine, or bank of machines.

 

[SKUNX]

Its always refreshing to hear somebody talk about something they actually know something about .

Thanks Vinyl

 

[gobucs]

In other words, the software was rigged. If the software is fair, then the results of one set of players will not affect the others.

This is what I've been saying the whole time. Call it what you want, if the cards do not fall truly random, if they are generated based on anything at all, whether it be other palers winning/losing, or whatever, it's cheating.
If they're cheating, how do we sue the pants off these bastards?

 

[SKUNX]

..

You dont .. you will lose no matter how many people cosign with you.
Deal with it and move on , thats the sad truth.

When have you ever heard of a player actually winning a legal case against an RTG casino ??

 

[Vesuvio]

You dont .. you will lose no matter how many people cosign with you.
Deal with it and move on , thats the sad truth.

When have you ever heard of a player actually winning a legal case against an RTG casino ??

Legally true, no doubt, but if the sort of rigging suggested here could be proved the negative publicity would be powerful enough to seriously damage RTG.

Though, to be honest, this thread adds nothing new. RTG asking which games to make "beatable", whatever that's supposed to mean with negative expectation games, would be interesting - but without any details it's little more than gossip (actually it just sounds like PR BS).

Casino software balancing out winners and losers to smooth cash flow or increase excitement (read: encourage compulsive behaviour with more dramatic winning/losing streaks) is the old conspiracy theory. I must admit I tend to think it might be the reality, though I've always had the impression that RTG is the least suspicious of the major software providers in that respect.

What we need (barring eCOGRA and the like examining code) is for some casino software programmers to spill the beans on how their software actually works. Of course, lucrative earnings and non-disclosure agreements probably make that unlikely, but you'd think you could find at least one malcontent willing to post anonymously (or at least tip someone off). The fact that we haven't had anyone so far is probably the strongest argument in favour of the software being fair.

 

[SKUNX]

!!

I would be of breach of contract myself if I post more but like ive said it over and over I just try to let people know what goes on behind the curtains sometimes.
But think of this most RTGs mess with your terms and conditions , mess with your bonus , your payout etc
what makes you think they wont mess with your game a bit...?
Wheres Hastings ? what happened to Montana pulling out overnight ??

And yes you are right pyschological tactitcs are used every day all day long pretty much.

Dont be amazed we are all in this to make money as a player or as the house.

RTG is a lose cannon , I love working / playing for RTGs been doing it for many years but I am fully aware sometimes the job gets dirty ..now but can you answer some of these questions for me?

 

[phynqster]

Because I have posted on this thread and have agreed with you many times , I have to post here and say "In the years I dealt with RTG, I never found their games to ever be rigged or unfair for reason. There was a time it was found that a slot was not paying off acuratley and they gave me a list of players who had played the game and to refund them the lost money.
There will always be fault, when you consider that the games are programed by HUMANS, so nothing we ever be 100% random, it will be what I think and that is as close as possible to giving you a fair and accurate GAME.

 

[Westland Bowl]

If the online casino supposedly already has a house edge in all their games, then why are they doing all of this manipulation of a player's game?

When I play in an online casino I expect that the cards drawn and the win/loss outcomes are truly random, not affected by the cumulative winning or losing of other players, just like in a live casino.

One problem with online casinos that I see and have already posted several times over the past two years, is that you CAN'T SEE THE CARDS in an online casino... you can't see if manipulation is occurring during your session(s). I suggest independent third party card-dealing operation to be embedded into the casino's software for a fairer game.

All of this manipulation by online casinos indicates to me that there are actually SOME players who are consistently winning at a negative expectation game and that can only be if the casino's RNG isn't really all that random. Whether it's Cipher's software or not, I don't know but the Bodog casino is the only casino promoted by Cipher. When I examine Cipher's Bodog sessions, I'm like "Maaan, why don't I get those win/loss outcomes like he does?" Are they going easy on him at the expense of those who sign up with Bodog because of him? I don't know but he rarely gets the loooong losing streaks that I get with Bodog.