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Bodog Blackjack Random or Rigged?

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by gobucs, May 31, 2007.

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    May 31, 2007
  1. gobucs

    gobucs Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Mortgage Broker
    Location:
    Cincinnati, Ohio USA
    I'm surprised after playing Blackjack on Bodog for the past six months, that I don't see more complaints about the randomness or lack there of with their Blackjack game. The last time I played (about two weeks ago) I won 3 of the last 30 hands. If this was a rare occurence, I could accept that, but it was every night that the dealer seemed to go on these rediculous winning streaks, winning 10+ hands on a regular basis. I see a lot of patterns like the dealer wins let's say eight in a row, then I win one, and the dealer wins at least the next hand, usually at least three. Happens all the time. It seems obvious to me that the game is rigged. I know this is the biggest online casino in the world, and it doesn't make any sense that they would cheat their customers, but when I asked for recent testing info I discovered there has been no testing since 2005!, they don't post payout percentages on their site, RTG is no help at all!, and all of the casinos are rogued according to Voltran2007 affiliated with Kahnawake Gaming Commission accept Bodog. I'm just wondering if anyone else has had these types of issues with Bodog. I had a similar experience playing Blackjack on PartyPokers website until they quit doing business in the US. Should I just give up on online Blackjack anywhere?
    GoBucs!
     
  2. May 31, 2007
  3. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    kasinoking, the other day, brought up the homophone annoyance of confusing loser/looser, and i have to say that confusing accept/except is a much more massive mistake (like my little alliteration?). they are almost opposites; accept means to welcome or embrace, where except means to leave out or exclude.

    so just except it, your a looser :p:D man i kill me sometimes :thumbsup::notworthy
     
  4. May 31, 2007
  5. gobucs

    gobucs Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Mortgage Broker
    Location:
    Cincinnati, Ohio USA
    OK. As you can see, I'm a new member to this forum. I spent some time reading through previous threads to get a feel for the environment. Unlike yourself, I have no desire to offend anyone, I've simply experienced some issues playing Blackjack with two very large online casinos. I was just looking for some feedback from anyone who might have had the same type of experience with either of those casinos.
    If you're not prepared to focus your reply on the subject of my original thread, then keep your reply to yourself.
    Besides, don't you think the world has enough smart-asses?
    I hope my grammar was more suitable to you in this reply.
     
    3 people like this.
  6. May 31, 2007
  7. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada
    lighten up man. yes i respect the english language and its grammar. and i feel i was reaching out to you so that in future you will not say the opposite of what you mean. and i like how you tell me to stay on topic or shut it, and in the next sentence you digress and call me a smart-ass? what in the world does that have to do with blackjack? yes, i'm being a smart-ass now, because you've inflamed me.

    i'll calm down though and just explain myself a little more to clarify. communication is so important, and obviously the internet takes a lot away from it as we are reduced to typing and can't properly load our words with the emotion we feel. this makes it all the more important to use the right words to best describe the situation. i tried to make my post come off as a casual heads-up/positive criticism, even using four smilies around the "insult" which consisted of me deliberately misusing words. i thought that would be humourous. and by doing so, i felt i also "contradicted" my whole argument, as a further attempt to convey there was not much seriousness in my response. the thing that bothers me is seeing my language get butchered, and people failing to express themselves cogently. the two errors that actually get to me most are apostrophe-s on simple plurals, and advertising things as .99c when they mean $.99, and surely many will agree on these being annoying.

    a guilty pleasure of mine though is to watch the vancouver-based cooking show "wok with yan" (in reruns because it's so popular) starring stephen yan, an asian with such an atrocious accent that the audience laughs at him talking, and he even hams it up. he always comes on stage and deliberately exaggerates his "herro!". the guy splits my sides, some of the stuff that comes out of his mouth. he says "chinese cooking wine" in under half a second like it's all one word, and he makes corny puns and jokes usually centred around the word "wok". his apron always has some old adage or lyric with "wok" slipped in, as in "wok me baby" or "wokking overtime".

    and no i don't think bodog deals rigged cards, not that i've ever played there since, being from canada, i can't. is there any chance you don't play proper basic strategy? and a caveat to this is that there's a chance bodog uses a different number of decks for some of their games. again i can't confirm this, but the wiz who promotes bodog exclusively on his site says their pontoon uses 2 versus the standard 8 decks. it could well be there are some subtleties that could win you a few more bets per session. also beware the red light phenomenon, where only the setbacks stick in your mind. and also in all casino games with a house edge, in absence of bonus it is impossible to play profitably over the long run. as such, in order to really win at a game like blackjack, you have to take risks and up your bet when you can afford to or when you "just feel a good one coming".

    i find pontoon much more entertaining because there's a prospect of a doubled five-card trick for doubled winnings of 2/1, and also 2/1 for a pontoon/bj. this also allows for a player to win by merely flatbetting (and of course having luck aka good variance for the session). in normal bj you can go up or down one, one-point-five(bj win), or two units on any hand. in pontoon you can go down two bets but up by four if your bet and double-down are paid 2/1 on a five-carder. and drawing after a double is fantastic. so is standing on 2- and 3-card 15/16. i hate hitting to less than half the cards in the deck, unless there's double payouts on taking that chance of course. so in pontoon, a hard 14 blows the most since this total or lower requires a player to hit. and the house edge is comparable or even slightly lower than most online blackjacks (not sure about bodog's with the double deck variation). so i would suggest to reconsider and check if the blackjack you are playing either has some poor rules or follows a different strategy table than you use currently. did i offer any good nuggets in that heap of a post? hope so :thumbsup:
     
  8. May 31, 2007
  9. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    To show a software is rigged, you need to provide more data, or at least more specific data. For example, how many steaks of 10+ losses occurred over how many hands? Were you playing with optimal strategy on all hands? If you give information in this format, I'll tell you the odds of it occurring randomly. Wizard of Odds is the authority on fair/rigged blackjack, and he exclusively promotes Bodog. He will likely help or provide more detailed info, if you contact him.

    If you don't trust Bodog, I'd suggest trying a different software. Microgaming and Cryptologic are both quality alternative softwares with an excellent reputation. Microgaming blackjack lists detailed stats about the game while you play, including a grid of dealer final hand percents.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. May 31, 2007
  11. thetic

    thetic Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Project Manager
    Location:
    Scotland
     
  12. May 31, 2007
  13. Slugo

    Slugo Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Telecomunications
    Location:
    Minnesota USA
    Hey, I don't give a D**n about your grammar. Mine is cr*p too!

    I don't know if you have played other RTG casinos in Blackjack or not.
    But if you haven't one thing I have learned is the they are VERY streaky!!!
    You can lose alot or win alot in a short time.

    Good luck

    Slugo
     
  14. May 31, 2007
  15. tencardcharlie

    tencardcharlie Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Bureaucrat
    Location:
    The playboy mansion.
    There is no reason whatsoever to believe that Bodog is rigged. What you are describing is just bad luck. I hope you get better luck in the future :)

    @happygobrokey: since you are speaking about language, I have to ask, why do you never use upper-case letters? To be honest, I find your posts more or less unreadable because of this.
     
  16. May 31, 2007
  17. SKUNX

    SKUNX Banned User

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    Costa Rica
    Comment

    See our new member who started this post does have a point.
    I have been working for RTG casinos for over 6 years now .. im a Blackjack player and Tri Card Poker... WHAT many of you dont know is that indeed there are ways that are just a click away from me to change the advantage of the house , this happens more often in low bonus % casinos that offer 24 hour payouts.
    Havent you noticed its easier to beat for example purposes the Shark than Bodog ??
    Everytime you wanna open up a casino you meet up with the RTG guys and you set out a plan Big bonus casino = 7 business days cashout low bonus casino = 24 to 48 hours and I dont wanna sound over the top but im one hell of a Blackplayer I know the " charts " by heart and my studies on the software help and I deposited $500 at bodog not to long ago and it lasted me about 15 minutes playing $2 to $25 BJ it was not good I have no problem with losing but I like to get a little plays worth ... now I deposited $500 XX casino that I wont name since Im having issues with them and in 20 minutes I made a nice profit on BJ but since their a high bonus casino they are gonna try and stick it to me every way possible lol

    Just my opinion
    Thanks
     
  18. May 31, 2007
  19. gobucs

    gobucs Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Mortgage Broker
    Location:
    Cincinnati, Ohio USA
    All good feedback guys and gals, thank you very much.

    Happy, what can I say man, you rubbed my fur the wrong way with your very first response to my very first thread. While I agree that grammar is important, and there are definitely some very frustrating occurences out there (my pet peave is when I hear somone say "especially but pronounce it expecially", just makes me nuts! Anyway I don't think my error was one of those that warranted a response unrelated to my inquiry. TRUCE. As far as the rest... For the most part I do play basic strategy, but have found that Bodog seems to hurt you more when you do. In addition, I suppose the number of decks would be deemed somewhat irrelevant in most cases because they claim to reshuffle after every hand. This alone makes it even harder for me to see the dealer win soooo many hands in a row.


    In response to others...

    SKUNX - You're saying exactly what I've been seeing for awhile now. I go along for a liitle while, everything is fine, nothing unusual. I win I lose, nothing crazy. I increase the wager to $25, $50, or whatever and the dealer wins 27 out of 30 hands. It is obvious to me after many many sessions that Bodog is identifying with the amount of the wager and the aggression of the player and is winning/losing accordingly. After all, they can't win every hand, but they certainly win more than their fair share, when the player becomes more aggressive.

    For the rest... Streaky is one thing, I'm talking about absurdity. I have dozens of records from Bodog BJ sessions 100's of thousands of hands, and welcome anyone to look at them and give me their opinion. There are so many, I don't know what would be the best way to make them available, but I will. e-mail would be easiest for me.

    I understand bad luck, and I understand steaky cards, but I also understand that in the past 20 years of playing land based casinos I would bet that I haven't lost 10 hands in a row more than 5 times. I know I play a lot more hands in a shorter period of time online, but to see the dealer win this many in a row nightly, sometimes more than once a night is unfathonable to me.
    (Hope I spelled that right Happy)
     
  20. May 31, 2007
  21. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
    student of life
    Location:
    canada

    @tencard & thetic: using lowercase and committing spelling errors are a speed issue, and indeed online this is becoming the norm. i won't use caps or spell check and waste time, since few here do anyway so it isn't a big deal. along this line also, many instances of punctuation are omitted as generally the longer one spends out of school, the worse one gets at recognizing clauses and objects and remembering the rules. but i still know how to use a semicolon, and do so on occasion. on the other hand, using the wrong word is a true error. you express the wrong idea by writing the wrong word. all the other errors above generally still can convey the proper meaning although not completely perfect. it could be just a brain burp, but i want to make sure the OP knows it was the wrong word for future reference. check this out:

    "Please, except my daughter as a candidate for your ritual sacrifice." << intention
    "please accept my daughter as a cnadidate for your rittual sacrafice" << written

    the only real difference from the intention to the conveyance of it in writing is that instead of protecting the daughter you are now offering her up. everything else is still legible and clear enough.

    @gobucs: so you think single-deck bj has no difference in house edge from eight-deck? You must register/login in order to see the link. visit that page and you see a difference in edge when more/fewer decks are used. the difference becomes negligible beyond 8 decks, but depending what other rules are in place, fewer numbers of decks could easily make for a more profitable game even. and you say you've gambled twenty years and didn't realize this affects the game. even after a shuffle (every hand online), once the hand begins you know some cards out of the deck and the relative probabilities change slightly. the fewer cards in the shoe, the more influence the cards out on the table have on the composition of the rest of the shoe. if i'm not mistaken, this is an illustration of bayes' principle, where uncovering knowledge changes the probabilities of subsequent events. strongly related to this are "deal or no deal" (whatever's in their cases is not in yours, and the offers are calculated based on the EV of the cases left in play) and also the "monty hall" problem (where you know he is going to reveal a booby prize so switching doors has a better chance of winning). i took a decision/game theory class heh :D hope your luck turns around mate! :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2007
  22. May 31, 2007
  23. casinocide

    casinocide Dormant account

    Occupation:
    think about it
    Location:
    somewhere GPS can't find
    Rubbing my eyes


    Sorry guys I'm just sitting here somewhat in disbeleif. I was reading this thread and I got the picture we were talking about Blackjack. Then someone who claims to be an employee of RTG comes out implying that RTG systematically cheats it's players by rigging it's blackjack games and thereafter another poster concurrs that this sounds reasonable. Can someone here please tell me what I'm missing? Is the employee just talking about slots??
     
  24. May 31, 2007
  25. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Technical
    Location:
    Planet Earth
    RTG operators can select slot payouts. I believe they have choices of a few specific levels such as 95%, 92%, etc. I have not seen any clear evidence of RTG blackjack being unfair, such as posts by RTG employees. In fact, one ex-employee posted that the games are indeed fair -- http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/152619-post37.html .

    I'd recommend emailing the records of 100's of thousands of hands to Wizard of Odds. He is the most qualified person to investigate, as he has experience with auditing game results to confirm fair play. I suspect that he will investigate and take the complaint seriously, given that Bodog is the only casino he promotes.
     
  26. May 31, 2007
  27. thelawnet

    thelawnet Dormant account

    Occupation:
    programmer
    Location:
    UK

    Except this isn't a serious complaint. 3 winning hands in 30 is not even close to notable and vague suggestions of having lost more than winning without any data, proper sampling, or anything else, is just another player who just had a bad run.
     
  28. Jun 1, 2007
  29. phynqster

    phynqster Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    los angeles, ca
    The only thing the casino operator can do is control the number of decks being played. Eventhough it reshuffles after every deal it still has a little effect. When I left the bussiness, the RTG blackjack could be from 1 to 277 decks, and could be changed on the fly.
    Skunk-- The two of us have watched players playing on line for large wagers at the same time. We have seen one player loose his entire bankroll, while another player playing at the same time beat us for over 20k. Over the outcome at the end of the month and millions of hands have been played, the win % /house edge is always fractionally the same.
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Jun 1, 2007
  31. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    The OP also needs to keep in mind he is playing a -EV game and cannot expect to win over the long term no matter what without a bonus. Also as mentioned the number of hands you have played are not anywhere near enough to be statiscally useful.
     
  32. Jun 1, 2007
  33. gobucs

    gobucs Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Mortgage Broker
    Location:
    Cincinnati, Ohio USA
    When I said "the number of decks would be deemed somewhat irrelevant in most cases" that's what I meant. I'm not proposing no difference because of number of decks used, only that the impact is reduced dramatically by a reshuffle after every hand.
    My last 50 hands:
    L,P,L,L,L,L,W,W,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,W,L,L,P,L,P,P,L,W,L,W,W,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,L,W,L,W,L,L,W,W,W
    I know I'm going to hear that 50 hands are not nearly enough to judge, and I agree. The sad thing is that this is not an unusual chain of events. This streak began when I increased my wager from $1 to $25. This has become quite predictable. I know to just try to sneak in a larger bet here and there rather than try to keep the wager increased, because the house is guaranteed to streak and suck the money out of me in record time.
    Let me clarify one thing; I'm not a disgruntled player who has lost a boat load of money. Actually, when I first started playing on Bodog, I cashed out 25K in a one week period, all from Blackjack, and $1000 deposit. I consider myself a skilled, disciplined player, but by no means do I claim to be an expert or professional. Since that early cash-out, I've seen a dramatic change in the way the cards are falling. I don't mean because I'm losing, I'm referring to patterns that were not there before. The pattern where I lose 10 hands in a row, win one, and the dealer wins the next hand. It's money that this is going to happen. The one where the dealer consistently wins multiple hands in a row and the player gets his wins in a mixed fashion one here, two there, etc. I've noticed an undeniable delay in the turn cards that wasn't there before.
    Isn't it possible that something that could so easily be manipulated, is? I have a feeling that when Bodog identified me as someone who mixes up the bet, and plays for profit (yes I play for profit, I don't get entertainment out of pissing away $$, if I want to do that I'll go to a strip club), then that perverbial switch was flipped. Someone started paying attention. Skunx, your reply hit home for me, because that's exactly what I was seeing.
    Something is rotten in Denmark, or Costa Rica, or Canada, or wherever they are. I'm going to send my hand histories to Wizard of Odds, I hope it is taken seriously. I worry that Bodog is the only site that he pushes, and wonder if he'll be truly bias.
    Hey, if I'm wrong about all of this, then I'm wrong. I haven't gotten any replies from my original thread from anyone saying they've had the same problems. Maybe it is just me.
    But please someone explain to me why Voltran 2007 rogued evey other Kahnawake site but Bodog? What's the difference?
    GoBucs
     
  34. Jun 1, 2007
  35. happygobrokey

    happygobrokey Dormant account

    Occupation:
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    canada
    an example then.
    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    H17, split only once, DAS, double any two, no draw on split aces, dealer peeks, no surrender, ONE DECK: HA=0.03748%

    H17, split only once, DAS, double any two, no draw on split aces, dealer peeks, no surrender, TWO DECKS: HA=0.42444%

    ditto above but with FOUR DECKS: HA=0.60838%

    ditto above but with EIGHT DECKS: HA=0.69928%

    also a quote from same page:

    "Methodology: The "optimal results" are based on perfect composition dependent strategy and the dealer shuffling after every hand, which benefits the player." [bolded italics added]

    i think the lower number of decks and the shuffling every hand makes a (good) difference to the game. rtg being able to change the # decks in play on the fly as phynqster said does nothing but hurt the casino. the majority of blackjack games online are eight-deck anyway, and anything over eight decks does not add to the house edge hardly at all. 255 decks is only very slightly worse than eight decks. and the casino setting it to fewer only gives away edge. it may however, be useful if the operators really are controlling the gambler's session move for move. giving a couple big wins and then cranking it back to max decks to suck it all back, and just carroting us along, laughing and drinking beer while they add and remove ~13 thousand cards from the shoe to manipulate the edge. don't know, but aka makes a good point that if you have 100k+ hands on bodog bj that michael shackleford the wiz can determine if a fair game is dealt and will probably be able to do his own simulations to corroborate or refute the claim further.
     
  36. Jun 1, 2007
  37. tennis_balls

    tennis_balls Dormant account

    Occupation:
    fish n chips promoter
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    why don't you make a poll for RTG blackjack? while a poll wouldn't prove anything, it might be interesting to view the results
     
  38. Jun 1, 2007
  39. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    The fact you have beat a -EV game is not relevent. Actually, maybe it is. If you added up your wins and deducted your losses how many bets per 100 hands are you up? Unless you gave back the $25,000 then it will be a positive number. Then are you complaining because you have not won enough lately but are still up on a - EV game? :confused:
     
    2 people like this.

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