Bitstarz vs KarinaLK

[maxd]

This whole PAB process looks like a method to silence the problems. ...

Does it? And you base that on what exactly?
Have you spoken to any of the players who've filed roughly 6000 PABs over the years?
Did you ask them about their portion of the €5.5+ million we've recovered for players?
Did you spend any time at all to understand the PAB process and why it is what it is?
Or did you just sashay in here and start shooting off your mouth about things you clearly know nothing about?

School yourself or be schooled.

 

[abuyang]

Get ready for an affordability check as soon as you admit you have borrowed money off of a friend to gamble The issue here is that the OP actually admitted that the $17,500 worth of bit coin she pumped through the slots came from someone else, which is just asking for a face palming when it comes to withdrawing any winnings.

In this case it is not just the money it is also the scale of the gift/loan/donation whatever you wish to call it.

It is more like 10.500$ (0.05+1 btc).

 

[Borgie]

Thanking responses but I am a bit disgust this bitstarz response so big post and not one mention about my case or even attempt defend they actions Because they are Very are arrogant and do not care.
And here is a funny forum it seem you can not speak freely (I am told it is not my decision what thread title is..?!

When we are in this forum we are guests we don't own it. Sometimes thread titltles are not appropriate or imply that CM thinks or has stated sonething. This is not always the case so the title needs changing.

Have you sent a PM to the rep to discuss your case ? Or raised a PAB.

 

[Slottery]

Like many and many casinos state in their T&C:s and also common sense say quite a lot, only own sole payment methods and own funds should be used for gambling. Think OP stated here that BC:s were 3rd party owned.

 

[abuyang]

Thanking responses but I am a bit disgust this bitstarz response so big post and not one mention about my case or even attempt defend they actions Because they are Very are arrogant and do not care.
And here is a funny forum it seem you can not speak freely (I am told it is not my decision what thread title is..?!

Please, calm down. Casinomeister did help to many players in the past to recover their money. Be patient and follow the procedure.

 

[Davey86]

Thanking responses but I am a bit disgust this bitstarz response so big post and not one mention about my case or even attempt defend they actions Because they are Very are arrogant and do not care.
And here is a funny forum it seem you can not speak freely (I am told it is not my decision what thread title is..?!

In the reps defence they have said their willing if you submit a PAB I know English isn’t your mother tounge but in English it sounded to me like they are willing to help you with max

 

[maxd]

Things have changed a lot since then. ... These days the main feature of the PAB process is "no public discussion". And the representatives seem happy to play this game. Look at the example above. Instead of explaining the casino's action in a couple of sentences, the Bitstarz representative referred everybody to the "holy" and secret PROCESS of PAB. Come on...

Again, more ignorant BS. Any PAB is open for public discussion __after__ we've reached a decision in the case.

Unlike other sites we have a closed arbitration process because that allows information to be freely and openly discussed between the involved parties. This protects everyone's privacy including the corporate privacy that any business is entitled to.

If you look into international arbitration this is the norm, almost no arbitration body in the world conducts their process in public. To do so would be counter-productive, which is why it isn't done.

If you prefer the dispute settlement process done elsewhere then that is where you should take your dispute. In the meantime however you are requested to learn a little about what you are talking about before you continue pissing on us and what we do.

 

[Robert Rabbit]

Thanking responses but I am a bit disgust this bitstarz response so big post and not one mention about my case or even attempt defend they actions Because they are Very are arrogant and do not care.
And here is a funny forum it seem you can not speak freely (I am told it is not my decision what thread title is..?!

In all fairness your original title was accusing an organisation of theft and duplicity without a sound basis. I am unsure why the post title actually matters, the detail is all the original post, and the individuals replying on here have given you the best advice they can, which is to raise a PAB, this will then be dealt with at the appropriate level.

But to reiterate, you have actually confirmed to the Bitztars that you were not playing with your own money, and hence were playing with third party funds, which is in contravention of most casino terms and conditions.

 

[maxd]

... I am told it is not my decision what thread title is..?!

Your original thread title called the casino thieves and said they stole your money. There was nothing in your post(s) to support any of that AND you have done nothing to follow the complaints procedure for Accredited casinos. In a case like that we are interested in maintaining a level playing field because our forums are not a weapon to be used to bash a casino however someone pleases. For all we know you are lying and trying to take shots at the casino to get your way. We simply don't know, so until you follow the complaints procedure in place we need to keep it fair, hence the title change.

So no, if you come here slagging off an Accredited casino with no interest in following the complaints procedure for Accredited casinos you are not free to entitle your thread as you please because you are using us to bash the casino. Until that is proven to be justified the title will be changed to level the field.

 

[abuyang]

But to reiterate, you have actually confirmed to the Bitztars that you were not playing with your own money, and hence were playing with third party funds, which is in contravention of most casino terms and conditions.

Did she confirm something like that? I don't think so. Do you refer to this?
"Then they ask some technical questions about bitcoin which really I didn't understand as my partner helps with that side of things."

 

[Borgie]

Did she confirm something like that? I don't think so. Do you refer to this?
"Then they ask some technical questions about bitcoin which really I didn't understand as my partner helps with that side of things."

Bitstarz vs KarinaLK
SHe admits it here.

 

[Robert Rabbit]

Did she confirm something like that? I don't think so. Do you refer to this?
"Then they ask some technical questions about bitcoin which really I didn't understand as my partner helps with that side of things."

" i do free to admit, the bitcoins was my partners but of course i am the one playing what is wrong with that? i think they did deal with me very sexist manner suggest it is not possible a girl can win "

Anyway I am out of this thread - it's getting too dodgy for me. We now have accusations of theft, duplicity and sexism all in one thread. I will say the wrong thing eventually and get a kicking from the site admins

 

[abuyang]

Bitstarz vs KarinaLK
SHe admits it here.

Ok, let's assume her boyfriend has sponsored the game session. Is it somehow prohibited?

Let's imagine me and my (theoretical) gf visit a Las Vegas casino. There I publicly hand over 10 k to her while she proceeds playing and winning using the money. Then the casino representatives deny the winnings based on the fact that she played with ‘my money’?

Really? )))

 

[maxd]

Ok, let's assume her boyfriend has sponsored the game session. Is that somehow prohibited? Really? )

Hence the PAB process where we can look into the matter, ask the casino for their supporting evidence for the decision they made, and resolve the matter. The OP is free to post here once that process is completed, assuming of course that they haven't misrepresented themselves and the facts of their case in order to bully the casino into giving them something they are not entitled to.

 

[mina1929]

Has the Op done the PAB or even spoken to the rep yet?

Just going around in circles

Popcorn and coffee anyone

 

[KarinaLK]

i have make this pab thing. it is quite difficult because only 1000 letters can put. so i make link to this thread to describe

 

[Borgie]

i have make this pab thing. it is quite difficult because only 1000 letters can put. so i make link to this thread to describe

Now you need to stop posting and let PAB run it's course.

 

[thr0b]

Good luck - remember you must not post any more about this subject until the PAB is finished.

 

[Robert Rabbit]

Has the Op done the PAB or even spoken to the rep yet?

Just going around in circles

Popcorn and coffee anyone

Seriously, that's the best you can do. It's the pick and mix and huge bucket of coke for me. On that note cinema's aren't the same anymore, you no longer have the upstairs balcony seats where if the film was totally shite you could amuse yourself throwing popcorn at the peasants below

 

[mina1929]

Seriously, that's the best you can do. It's the pick and mix and huge bucket of coke for me. On that note cinema's aren't the same anymore, you no longer have the upstairs balcony seats where if the film was totally shite you could amuse yourself throwing popcorn at the peasants below

I haven't been to the cinema in years and yes upstairs balconies were the best

That reminds me I have Vikings on pause which I must finish watching

 

[The Dude]

Ok, let's assume her boyfriend has sponsored the game session. Is it somehow prohibited?

Let's imagine me and my (theoretical) gf visit a Las Vegas casino. There I publicly hand over 10 k to her while she proceeds playing and winning using the money. Then the casino representatives deny the winnings based on the fact that she played with ‘my money’?

Really? )))

When you are sitting at the slots and win a jackpot worthy of a handpay, you are automatically photographed by security. Try having someone switch seats with you for the handpay and see what happens. You'll more than likely be accused of fraud and booted - perhaps even arrested. You don't fuck around like that in Vegas.

 

[maxd]

i have make this pab thing. it is quite difficult because only 1000 letters can put. so i make link to this thread to describe

PAB received and in progress. Please ensure that you have read the Player Arbitration Policies and Procedures with particular attention to item 2.3:

2.3 - DON'T sabotage your complaint.

Posting on the forums or submitting your issue at other 3rd party sites while we're working on it undermines our efforts. If we find out you've done so your complaint will likely be canceled. You'll be free to discuss your complaint wherever you like once we've completed our work and given our decision.

 

[TamingTheBeast]

Wow, the PAB process is done for free by people who care about the wellbeing of their members.. and it’s FREE. I assume it takes alot of time, effort and energy to go through these and people find a way to complain. I swear the audacity of some people, it’s crazy

 

[asidea]

Seriously, that's the best you can do. It's the pick and mix and huge bucket of coke for me. On that note cinema's aren't the same anymore, you no longer have the upstairs balcony seats where if the film was totally shite you could amuse yourself throwing popcorn at the peasants below

Cinema's reminded me of when i was just 15 years old, i went to the cinema with two of my schoolmates, and happened to choose the upper level seats, so we could mucked about with no disturbance. We heard this oogling sound from two rows down, we then had a look and saw this middle aged chappie diddling with his weapon, and looking at us. Being 15 year's old then and full of innocence, the whole scene was just too gross to percieve.Naturally we reported it.Never frequent the cinema's too much now lol.

 

[dionysus]

and people wonder why the floors are sticky

 

[asidea]

and people wonder why the floors are sticky

Ah..ha..

 

[Playford7]

and people wonder why the floors are sticky

Haha so true, older cinemas always had the sticky floors... same as older clubs and pubs

 

[Jono777]

AG alas is a different kettle of fish, have promoted many a rogue casino since being flogged to Catena Media. Never mind Barrymore pool party dodginess, you're well into Jim'll Fix It territory with AG. No foul.

But to suggest CM have been paid to give Bitstarz any rating will have @Casinomeister or @maxd spitting their beer out in fury. You couldn't be more wrong.

I'll have you know Jimmy Saville brought my very first Ukash voucher back in the day, even tho he'd seen me on the fruit machines in a nearby seaside arcade, I did explain you had to be over 18 to play online.

Knew there would be strings, guess you live and learn

 

[Jono777]

You're a troll. Fuck off and bye.

Not quite sure what you're trying to say here, can you summarise please?

 

[hhhelllo]

A few words about the Curacao license seem to be in order.

Curacao does not license casinos directly. They have 4 Master Licenses, each held by a different company (?), and those Master License holders then sell off sub-licenses to individual casinos.

In and of itself a Curacao license isn't worth spit because Curacao does nothing to police and regulate individual casinos. In other words it's all up to the Master License holder: if they are willing to police their sub-licensees then there is (at least) something in place to help ensure than the licensees behave themselves.

If however the Master License holder does nothing but sell sub-licenses then, as you can imagine, there is nothing to keep the sub-license holder from doing whatever they please. In other words players can get screwed en-mass and there is nothing anyone is going to do about it.

So the bottom line is that a Curacao license is only as good as the people who hold the sub-license. If they are douchebags then the players are going to get douched. If they are good people -- and yes, some certainly are, several of which we've worked closely with for many years -- then the players have nothing to worry about.

So is a casino shit if it holds a Curacao license? Not necessarily. Again refer to the nature of Curacao licensing: if the casino is run by good people then the casino is going to be a good place. If that is not the case ... run, don't walk, elsewhere. How can you know who is good and who isn't? Check the reviews, ask, do your research. There is no one-size fits all way to measure Curacao licensees.

FTR see this article on the four Curacao Master Licenses: Curaçao and Their Four Master License Holders

And last but not least I should say this: there has been a move VERY recently for some of the Curacao Master License holders to start cracking down on their sub-licensees. This is NOT a centralized effort by Curacao as much as the Master License holders would like people to believe it is. It is simply an effort by a couple of the Master License holders to extract their reputations from the bog hole they've been wallowing in for years. That said, any improvement is welcome so good on them for it.

thanks for taking the time to teach me that
I learned something today

 

[bowlingbob]

So if I'm understanding correctly because the Russian ladies English is not so good Bitstarz coerced her into saying the bitcoin came from someone else in order to steal her winnings? Bitstarz are crooks here. She won the money fair and square but because its such a large sum they had to find a way to confiscate it. Typical Bitstarz... They've been finding ways for years to not pay players. I remember countless stories on bitcointalk years ago how they stole players money for any reason they could find. How they ever got accredited is beyond me. I've avoided them like the plague.

 

[dionysus]

From what I've read, that seems... a stretch

 

[Robert Rabbit]

So if I'm understanding correctly because the Russian ladies English is not so good Bitstarz coerced her into saying the bitcoin came from someone else in order to steal her winnings? Bitstarz are crooks here. She won the money fair and square but because its such a large sum they had to find a way to confiscate it. Typical Bitstarz... They've been finding ways for years to not pay players. I remember countless stories on bitcointalk years ago how they stole players money for any reason they could find. How they ever got accredited is beyond me. I've avoided them like the plague.

So to recap, you don't use them, have avoided them for years but have decided they are crooks? That's like me saying I know the guy down the road sells dodgy motors although I have never bought one off of him, because I read it somewhere.

I am not defending Bitstarz if they are in the wrong, I am merely pointing out that your logic is flawed and based on assumptions rather than fact

 

[abuyang]

So to recap, you don't use them, have avoided them for years but have decided they are crooks? That's like me saying I know the guy down the road sells dodgy motors although I have never bought one off of him, because I read it somewhere.

I am not defending Bitstarz if they are in the wrong, I am merely pointing out that your logic is flawed and based on assumptions rather than fact

So until Bitstarz confiscates 40000$ from him he cannot have an opinion about them? It is much smarter and cheaper to use other people's experiences IMHO.

 

[dionysus]

So until Bitstarz confiscates 40000$ from him he cannot have an opinion about them? It is much smarter and cheaper to use other people's experiences IMHO.

if you choose to use slanderous terms, youd best have the means to back them up

there's a very good reason we have PABs in place

 

[abuyang]

if you choose to use slanderous terms, youd best have the means to back them up

there's a very good reason we have PABs in place

I have heard the full story from the OP. She has also added the copies of the emails. At the same time, the casino rep preferred not to comment on the case in any way. So I base my opinion on the facts available at the moment.
P.S. I haven't used any slanderous terms.

 

[dionysus]

I have heard the full story from the OP. She has also added the copies of the emails. At the same time, the casino rep preferred not to comment on the case in any way. So I base my opinion on the facts available at the moment.
P.S. I haven't used any slanderous terms.

that's rather the point; youve seen one side


reps often don't respond for very good reasons, hence the PAB process


granted, not always; but generally speaking, there's rhyme and reason
but give the process a chance

 

[X-Raided]

So until Bitstarz confiscates 40000$ from him he cannot have an opinion about them? It is much smarter and cheaper to use other people's experiences IMHO.

Bitstarz does pay out hefty winnings, I assure you.. I don't think that the casino plays duck-duck-goose to
pick the lucky person that gets paid after landing a huge win. If they see a strange pattern
with a player, they ask questions, as does any casino.. If those questions lead them to believe that the player broke a term in their conditions, they won't pay. The PAB is what the player has as a "judicial court system" to get a "fair trial". Any attorney/public defender would ask their clients not to discuss the case. yes?

At least there's Casinomeister's PAB process to help. Where else could the OP run to for assistance?
Definitely not you

 

[dionysus]

This may..or perhaps it wont....seem apt.

You go to a large restaurant chain.
It has Michelin stars and grand reviews.
So you eat there and you enjoy it, or maybe you don't.

But down the road, there's a cart; maybe it's fish n chips or kebabs or hot dogs.
Maybe the food inspection label is faded, is it legit?
Perhaps, it's best you don't look....too..closely behind the food curtain? But perhaps it's utterly pristine

But is the food good? Perhaps it's the best darned X food you;ve eaten.
And reviews are bloody stellar.


Point is
Read reviews.
Make an educated choice and decision
Do your homework
Read reviews and ask friends

And here? You've recourse should your 'food' experience not meet your standards

 

[dionysus]

if it was too obscure; that's a Curacao/casino analogy

 

[maxd]

I have heard the full story from the OP. ...

That is exactly the problem. You haven't heard the full story until you've heard both sides and seen the supporting evidence. The problem is that casinos are generally not fond of sharing their private details in public. In order to get the full story you need full access to both sides and that's what arbitration, and the PAB process, is all about.

If you don't like the PAB process or how it works that's fine, more power to you, you are perfectly free to not use it. But it is the service we offer to our readership and you can't deny that it has served the community very well for almost two decades.

Your criticisms have been heard and are duly noted but until you can offer people something better and workable you're not really contributing much to getting player problems solved.

 

[abuyang]

The way I see it... The casino's actions were explained quite well in their email to the player (see attached file).

Here is an excerpt:

During verification, we came to the conclusion that the person in whose name the account was registered was not a direct player because during verification erroneous data was provided regarding the selection of games and the gameplay.


Assuming the casino was not lying in its explanation to the player, all we need now is to understand how exactly the casino staff came to a conclusion about the OP not being a direct player. The one and only argument which they have provided to the OP was "the wrong answers provided during the video verification regarding the game selection and gameplay". If this is the only argument the casino has in its defend then the player has to be paid in full as soon as possible. Because any player has a right NOT to remember a single thing about his gameplay. IMHO.

 

[maxd]

The way I see it... The casino's actions were explained quite well in their email to the player ...

That may be why you are posting in a forum rather than running an arbitration service.

The casino's case and the evidence they hold is not limited to, nor likely to be shared in full, in an email to the player.

You want simple answers, there usually are none. A significant majority of cases are judgement calls based on all the available evidence, whether that be given publicly or privately.

If you're offering to be the OP's arbitrator that's fine and between you two. Until I hear otherwise the OP has asked us to work on their behalf, and I am.

 

[abuyang]

That may be why you are posting in a forum rather than running an arbitration service.

The casino's case and the evidence they hold is not limited to, nor likely to be shared in full, in an email to the player.

You want simple answers, there usually are none. A significant majority of cases are judgement calls based on all the available evidence, whether that be given publicly or privately.

If you're offering to be the OP's arbitrator that's fine and between you two. Until I hear otherwise the OP has asked us to work on their behalf, and I am.

So not only us, the public, will never be informed about the "real" reasons for the casino's action but it looks like the OP herself will never know why she got her 40k confiscated. And the reasons which the casino gave to the player in the explanatory email - those are just words without real meaning behind them. Hmm...
Let me predict how this thread and PAB will end. Maxd will inform the OP and everybody else that he got enough evidence from the casino (evidence which cannot be made available to ANYBODY else) and the OP indeed violated the rules XYZ of the casino. Hope that I am wrong but the way it goes now leaves no other options in my opinion.

P.S. I have no connection to the OP. I am just very disturbed by the fact casino may confiscate tens of thousands of dollars on absolutely ridiculous claims.

 

[maxd]

So not only us, the public, will never be informed about the "real" reasons for the casino's action ...

You are rather prone to making accusations and insinuations about the faults of the PAB system with no mention of the good that the process does and the service that it offers to players in need. It sounds very much like a personal agenda you've got going here and not much else. Why is that?

... it looks like the OP also will never know why she got her 40k confiscated. ...

The OP here, like almost all the PABers that use the service, will be given the reasons. Whether they choose to accept those reasons as justification for the actions taken against them by the casinois another matter.

The bottom line is that you are implying none too subtily that the PAB service is completely sealed and no one, not even the PABer, knows anything about the conclusion reached. That is patently false. Again, you are either unaware of, or are willfully ignoring, the way the PABs actually work for the sake of grinding the axe you appear to have against the PAB service.

And the reasons which the casino gave to the player - those are just words without any meaning. Hmm...

Obviously they are part of the case but no, that's not an entire case in and of itself. Nor should it be.

Let me predict how this thread and PAB will end. ...

It appears very much as though you are attempting to sabotage the reputation of the PAB process and Casinomeister in general, largely with misinformation I might add. I repeat what's already been said, if what we do so offends you you're welcome to go elsewhere.

 

[samdog21]

thanks for taking the time to teach me that
I learned something today

Nice hopefully it will change ty for info✌

 

[Fellover]

Obviously casino will always win a PAB unless it's a small amount that they pay rather than fabricate proofs.
Because it is very easy for bitstarz say anything and they side will be trusted and the victim is always considered wrong before even any evidence. And all casinos proof provided to maxd is secret and automatically accepted as gospel

 

[Oscar Arnhem]

Obviously casino will always win a PAB unless it's a small amount that they pay rather than fabricate proofs.
Because it is very easy for bitstarz say anything and they side will be trusted and the victim is always considered wrong before even any evidence. And all casinos proof provided to maxd is secret and automatically accepted as gospel

Welcome,nice first post

 

[The Dude]

Obviously casino will always win a PAB unless it's a small amount that they pay rather than fabricate proofs.
Because it is very easy for bitstarz say anything and they side will be trusted and the victim is always considered wrong before even any evidence. And all casinos proof provided to maxd is secret and automatically accepted as gospel

Good going - first post is a troll post.

You are full of crap. You haven't a clue, and we publish our findings for our PABs after they are complete - and the players who had submitted them are free to talk about it afterwards as well.

I have been dealing with casino complaints for over 20 years, and I can pretty much tell when casinos are bullshiting me - Max has been doing this for about the same period of time, and knows what I know.

And we can also pretty much tell when players are full of poo poo. Like the comments in your post - full of poo. LOL

 

[Davey86]

Let’s hope one doesn’t need someone’s help in the future as one puts it player arbitration is useless :sniper: