Betat Presents Slotty Vegas?

"A deposit must be wagered a minimum of 5(five) times before being withdrawn. The casino will not process withdrawals for a player should the player’s lifetime real money wagering fall beneath 5(five) times the total amount of funds deposited to the casino by the player."


Perhaps the above term has been added to help stop the potential for money laundering? If this is the case, then surely customers who have shown loyalty and deposited regularly for some time, should be exempt from adhering to such a restriction.

Of course, the other distinct possibility is that the casino wants to reduce the chance of new account holders from taking an early big win and running, possibly not coming back.

There are other explanations no doubt....

I've seen very similar terms before in other casinos (don't recall off hand if I've seen them in accredited ones though).

Like those before me, I really don't like the term and I won't be signing up any time soon. As has been pointed out already, it's very restrictive, and can lead to headaches and complaints.
 
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[SUP][/SUP]
They've read the thread but still no comment from Betat?

Interesting.


No doubt this thread's given them something to think about.

Maybe legal is looking into updating select T&C's as we speak :what:
 
Hi,

I'm reading. A lot has been said - some of which are misunderstandings, some seem to be failures on behalf of my legal team.

I allowed a thread to sit a day for this precise reason - to collect pre BOF feedback, now that the thread was started.

I'll multi-quote the thread and reply today with individual queries

Ig
 
Hi,

I'm reading. A lot has been said - some of which are misunderstandings, some seem to be failures on behalf of my legal team.

I allowed a thread to sit a day for this precise reason - to collect pre BOF feedback, now that the thread was started.

I'll multi-quote the thread and reply today with individual queries

Ig

Thanks for the update Igor, appreciated.
 
"A deposit must be wagered a minimum of 5(five) times before being withdrawn. The casino will not process withdrawals for a player should the player’s lifetime real money wagering fall beneath 5(five) times the total amount of funds deposited to the casino by the player."


Perhaps the above term has been added to help stop the potential for money laundering? If this is the case, then surely customers who have shown loyalty and deposited regularly for some time, should be exempt from adhering to such a restriction.

Of course, the other distinct possibility is that the casino wants to reduce the chance of new account holders from taking an early big win and running, possibly not coming back.

There are other explanations no doubt....

I've seen very similar terms before in other casinos (don't recall off hand if I've seen them in accredited ones though).

Like those before me, I really don't like the term and I won't be signing up any time soon. As has been pointed out already, it's very restrictive, and can lead to headaches and complaints.

That is exactly how it reads to me. It has nothing to do with money laundering, as a separate terms requiring 1-3x playthrough for a cash deposit prior to W/D would cover laundering. It seems as you infer weasel-wording to avoid paying out winners and putting off players from making sizeable withdrawals.

In fact if I had started a casino business up and wanted to ensure it didn't run in to cash-flow issues (through being underfunded) these are pretty much the terms I'd have in place. These terms as a whole seem like casino 'insurance' to establish profitability now and maybe when financial security is established, make the terms better in the future.

These terms are a potential minefield for the unwary and if not clarified/reworded could lead to numerous complaints. For example, you'd need to play with a spreadsheet open just to ensure you didn't potentially fall foul of the 10 x deposit term plus the 5 x lifetime deposit play-through term which would run concurrently with that (upon withdrawal) as it is worded at present.

I want to deposit, play and if I win withdraw without hindrance and not have to worry about making lengthy calculations to avoid breaching these dotty terms.
 
HI All,

Sorry about the delay in replying. Let me chop this up into multiple posts not to write an essay :)

First things first - The Introduction

SlottyVegas is a brand that was started here actually, in a very very old thread before BETAT was what it is today by one of the community members. The idea was to bypass the various loyalty point schemes and plethora of bonuses etc. and simply provide a clean-cut cashback casino.

I liked that. Now, without a deposit offer there is a thin chance of casino success so we obviously had to add a welcome pack and design the basic reward structure in terms of promotions, free spins, etc. however the main idea is there.

The site IS fully owned and operated by us, and same people responsible for BETAT, baring a few newcomers are also responsible for SlottyVegas.

The site was advertised to an existing BETAT database only for the time being due to the needed cleanup of T&C's and various bugs ironing that usually happens in the soft-launch phase.

How does it Work?

The concept is simple: Increase game payout in a direct way. For the time being it's an even 1% increase on every win.
This will eventually be scalable based on loyalty and game type but for launch it's a pretty straight forward approach.

If you think of it in terms of Game RTP, it looks approximately something like this:

At an average game RTP of 96% for a single deposit session, a player that has played and lost a £100 would have wagered approximately £2500 and "won" back approximately £2400, losing £100 in the process. That is done over many won and many lost hands of course.

By adding 1% to every winning spin, those £2400 will have generated £24 in "Supercharged" winnings. Those are released as an aggregated sum of all your wagering every Tuesday and Every Friday, with a 1x turnover to be taken as real money.

What's interesting about it is that, if on the other hand a player deposited £100, had an amazing session though which they had a couple of hours of playtime and won, say, a £1000 to withdraw - the rewarding system acts the same way.

For that session, a player would have wagered for example £10,000 in total and won £11,000, and the site would add 1% to the winnings. Upon next return there would be a £110 waiting to be claimed at also 1x turnover.

We're simply adding 1% to every winning hand - mathematically, it just increased the game payout across the board by 1% so games that had an RTP of 96%, now have an RTP of 97%.

The added winnings as I said are released twice per week and done so "in aggregate" - so to take a multi-deposit session for an example:

Over a weekend, you'd make 5-6 odd deposits totalling £600 for example. One of them made a nice win and you withdrew £400. You're 200 in the hole for the weekend and you wagered in total about 10k lets say. That generated volume will leave about a £100 in your account to be collected next Tuesday.

As I said, it's just a very simple, straight forward increase to the game payout.

COUPLE OF NOTICES -

1. The turnover is 1x due to our inability to create automatic cash rewards. We're building a cash reward system so within a few months the Supercharged rewards will be CASH - although 1x turnover is very small, it takes away from the concept of creating higher paying games.

2. System will expand to cater to different supercharge % which will allow us to include ALL games into the portfolio (except jackpots of course) - right now it's a good selection to test the waters with, but not all games are included.

Now, regarding the T&C's Bonus Wagering, etc - i'll do those individually if you don't mind.

I hope above helped.

Thanks

Igor
 
Sounds a great concept, but can not wait to see about the rules, Has the win amount to get the 1% boney back got a min win, or do you put the %1 even if you win 10p ?
 
Sounds a great concept, but can not wait to see about the rules, Has the win amount to get the 1% boney back got a min win, or do you put the %1 even if you win 10p ?

every real money win - 10p or 10,000 pounds - it always ads a % to that winning hand. in case of 10p it would add 0.1p, in case of 10,000 pound hand, it would add £100.

Say you deposit 100 and:

Bet 10 win 0
Bet 10 win 0
Bet 10 win 20
Bet 10 win 10
Bet 10 win 5
Bet 10 win 25
Bet 10 win 0
Bet 10 win 0
Bet 10 win 20
Bet 10 win 20

Total bet 100; Total win 100, Supercharged: (win*0.01=1)

You're back where you started, balance wise, and supercharged winnings should be £1.

I'm half way through Dunovers post as that is the most troubling one it seems.
 
Sounds a great concept, but can not wait to see about the rules, Has the win amount to get the 1% boney back got a min win, or do you put the %1 even if you win 10p ?

"The concept is simple: Increase game payout in a direct way. For the time being it's an even 1% increase on every win."

No minimum required ;)

Edit: Igor beat me to it.
 
HI All,

Sorry about the delay in replying. Let me chop this up into multiple posts not to write an essay :)

First things first - The Introduction

SlottyVegas is a brand that was started here actually, in a very very old thread before BETAT was what it is today by one of the community members. The idea was to bypass the various loyalty point schemes and plethora of bonuses etc. and simply provide a clean-cut cashback casino.

I liked that. Now, without a deposit offer there is a thin chance of casino success so we obviously had to add a welcome pack and design the basic reward structure in terms of promotions, free spins, etc. however the main idea is there.

The site IS fully owned and operated by us, and same people responsible for BETAT, baring a few newcomers are also responsible for SlottyVegas.

The site was advertised to an existing BETAT database only for the time being due to the needed cleanup of T&C's and various bugs ironing that usually happens in the soft-launch phase.

How does it Work?

The concept is simple: Increase game payout in a direct way. For the time being it's an even 1% increase on every win.
This will eventually be scalable based on loyalty and game type but for launch it's a pretty straight forward approach.

If you think of it in terms of Game RTP, it looks approximately something like this:

At an average game RTP of 96% for a single deposit session, a player that has played and lost a £100 would have wagered approximately £2500 and "won" back approximately £2400, losing £100 in the process. That is done over many won and many lost hands of course.

By adding 1% to every winning spin, those £2400 will have generated £24 in "Supercharged" winnings. Those are released as an aggregated sum of all your wagering every Tuesday and Every Friday, with a 1x turnover to be taken as real money.

What's interesting about it is that, if on the other hand a player deposited £100, had an amazing session though which they had a couple of hours of playtime and won, say, a £1000 to withdraw - the rewarding system acts the same way.


For that session, a player would have wagered for example £10,000 in total and won £11,000, and the site would add 1% to the winnings. Upon next return there would be a £110 waiting to be claimed at also 1x turnover.

We're simply adding 1% to every winning hand - mathematically, it just increased the game payout across the board by 1% so games that had an RTP of 96%, now have an RTP of 97%.

The added winnings as I said are released twice per week and done so "in aggregate" - so to take a multi-deposit session for an example:

Over a weekend, you'd make 5-6 odd deposits totalling £600 for example. One of them made a nice win and you withdrew £400. You're 200 in the hole for the weekend and you wagered in total about 10k lets say. That generated volume will leave about a £100 in your account to be collected next Tuesday.

As I said, it's just a very simple, straight forward increase to the game payout.

COUPLE OF NOTICES -

1. The turnover is 1x due to our inability to create automatic cash rewards. We're building a cash reward system so within a few months the Supercharged rewards will be CASH - although 1x turnover is very small, it takes away from the concept of creating higher paying games.

2. System will expand to cater to different supercharge % which will allow us to include ALL games into the portfolio (except jackpots of course) - right now it's a good selection to test the waters with, but not all games are included.

Now, regarding the T&C's Bonus Wagering, etc - i'll do those individually if you don't mind.

I hope above helped.

Thanks

Igor

What's also 'interesting' about that example I bolded above Igor is the player, under current terms, wouldn't be able to withdraw that £1,000 UNLESS in the process of winning that £1000 they had made £500 worth of spins.....:) Forget that did you?

The 'dunover terms and conditions editing service' is available free of charge in your case, as you are a good nice chap. PM me.
 
What's also 'interesting' about that example Igor is the player, under current terms, wouldn't be able to withdraw UNLESS in the process of winning that £1000 they had made £500 worth of spins.....:)

Stop being difficult :D (joking of course) I'm getting to it.

It's a simple anti money-laundering requirement that exists on betat also due to our deps and WDs having no charges and attracting guys that keep turning their deposits over at 1x at max RTP game (like single deck blakc jack) and trying to withdraw.

It wasn't phrased correctly by legal, neither was the 25K term which is abysmally poor.

We wont let ambiguity rule the T&C so i'm happy to have you on board, seeing as you are THE go-to guy for T&C scrutiny lol

EDIT: caught your edit after i posted - i was counting on that service lol
 
What's also 'interesting' about that example Igor is the player, under current terms, wouldn't be able to withdraw UNLESS in the process of winning that £1000 they had made £500 worth of spins.....:)

What will be even more interesting will be to see if T&C's on this point has been amended, following member concerns.

It appears that my opening point RE money laundering in post #26 was on the mark after all ;)
 
What will be even more interesting will be to see if T&C's on this point has been amended, following member concerns.

As a whole - not immediately; as the thread raised my concerns overall so i'll be going over it with a fine tooth-comb which will take some days.

The most impact-worthy ones will be reworded immediately though not to have them linger.
 
Well, the principle of the idea re. a 1% increase in RTP effectively is a good and novel one, and the best since Videoslots' cash races if awarded like them in withdrawable cash. It beats the MG download dog-dirt of comps at an appalling 0.1% rate. Theoretically you could have a long session on a small deposit and if you played a few hours and had an RTP of say 99% and actually earn more than the deposit when you bust out eventually. Although I'm sure the terms would prevent this....I didn't get as far as the extra 1% terms after my attack of apoplexy when I saw the bandit terms I quoted....:eek2:

I'd suggest editing the term you mentioned to specify 1x play-through for slots and 5x for table games.
If this is the case, then terms below are effectively covered anyway and can be removed.
The terms concerning 5x lifetime deposit aggregate play through for w/d's and 10x deposit for withdrawals are simply unnecessary anyway and unreasonable.
 
Well, the principle of the idea re. a 1% increase in RTP effectively is a good and novel one, and the best since Videoslots' cash races if awarded like them in withdrawable cash. It beats the MG download dog-dirt of comps at an appalling 0.1% rate. Theoretically you could have a long session on a small deposit and if you played a few hours and had an RTP of say 99% and actually earn more than the deposit when you bust out eventually. Although I'm sure the terms would prevent this....I didn't get as far as the extra 1% terms after my attack of apoplexy when I saw the bandit terms I quoted....:eek2:

(see bold) Actually - they wont! That's the point. From the business perspective, when all players and all their poor and great sessions are taken into account the business will simply give around 30% of its revenue back to players as a whole which is about what we do now with all the bonuses and promotions which take set-up from various staff members time and effort...
 
Problematic Clauses

Requirement to turnover a deposit before withdrawal -

As for the 5-time turnover on deposit, the clause will be changed to reflect it's purpose and original meaning appropriately, such as:

"In order to thwart potential money laundering attempts a deposit must be wagered a minimum of at least one and up to a required five times before being withdrawn, at Casino discretion. The casino may choose to not process withdrawals for a player should the player’s lifetime real money wagering not accrue to at least five times the total amount of funds deposited to the casino.

Notwithstanding the absolute minimum of one time turnover of any deposit, multiple turnover requirements allowed by this clause will not be enforced by the casino without appropriate justification communicated to the player, such a recording of consistent minimum turnovers of subsequent deposits on carefully selected low margin games in order to minimize loss of funds on turnover."


Maximum withdrawal requirement was just really poorly worded. The site caps non-jackpot wins to 25K per month.

That term is being changed to:

Maximum withdrawal amount for non-jackpot winnings from this Casino is capped at €25,000 per month, given that total winnings will always be paid in less than 10 instalments.

Bonuses

Some time ago, we agreed to decrease the WR on BETAT and see how it goes. Well, from revenue perspective - not well. Having early withdrawal available and matching low WR with competitors that do not allow early withdraws, saw us give over 70% of generated revenue back. Financially, the maths don't work out. (That's excluding ongoing comps)

What the players seem to not mind, is having their deposit locked in until bonus turnover and what they seem to appreciate more than "free real money" is low turnover. We're changing our bonusing system to comply with what the people want - locked in deposits and low WR. This change will be live in October.

Until then, we need to go back to the 60x turnover, otherwise i'm risking the entire accounts department declaring open war on the entire marketing department.

Those are the cliff-notes from the valid complaints i've seen.

Lastly - UK licence & vynil's comment. We're, as all are, seriously considering it. Things from the business perspective have not been made exceptionally clear by the UKGC as of yet, so i think everyone is waiting for some common questions to be answered.

Thanks

Igor
 
Requirement to turnover a deposit before withdrawal -

As for the 5-time turnover on deposit, the clause will be changed to reflect it's purpose and original meaning appropriately, such as:

"In order to thwart potential money laundering attempts a deposit must be wagered a minimum of at least one and up to a required five times before being withdrawn, at Casino discretion. The casino may choose to not process withdrawals for a player should the player’s lifetime real money wagering not accrue to at least five times the total amount of funds deposited to the casino.

Notwithstanding the absolute minimum of one time turnover of any deposit, multiple turnover requirements allowed by this clause will not be enforced by the casino without appropriate justification communicated to the player, such a recording of consistent minimum turnovers of subsequent deposits on carefully selected low margin games in order to minimize loss of funds on turnover."


Thanks again for the info, and your efforts Igor!

I suspected potential money laundering was the reason for the above term.

Can you please specify what games the casino considers to be carefully selected low margin types. Does this include some low variance slots, or does the term apply specifically to select table games only? It's not transparent.

The amendment to the above term is an improvement, but I think you will still have more than a few unhappy members on your hand. The 'at Casino discretion' will be probably be a red flag for some.

I understand that the casino will attempt to provide appropriate justification if the x5 turnover rule is enforced....

I'll leave it to the other members to sink their teeth into this and other term amendments. I've got 2 jet, cya.
 
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Requirement to turnover a deposit before withdrawal -

As for the 5-time turnover on deposit, the clause will be changed to reflect it's purpose and original meaning appropriately, such as:

"In order to thwart potential money laundering attempts a deposit must be wagered a minimum of at least one and up to a required five times before being withdrawn, at Casino discretion. The casino may choose to not process withdrawals for a player should the player’s lifetime real money wagering not accrue to at least five times the total amount of funds deposited to the casino.

This is what some CM members would call a 'vague FU clause'? It can be used to penalise either lucky players or careful players.

Notwithstanding the absolute minimum of one time turnover of any deposit, multiple turnover requirements allowed by this clause will not be enforced by the casino without appropriate justification communicated to the player, such a recording of consistent minimum turnovers of subsequent deposits on carefully selected low margin games in order to minimize loss of funds on turnover."


Again, if a player does the math and uses his head, he could get penalised - if this clause is going to be an anti-AP one it should say so directly?



Maximum withdrawal requirement was just really poorly worded. The site caps non-jackpot wins to 25K per month.

Yes, it was!

That term is being changed to:

Maximum withdrawal amount for non-jackpot winnings from this Casino is capped at €25,000 per month, given that total winnings will always be paid in less than 10 instalments.

So if a player were to win OVER 250k then which would apply? 10 instalments at over 25k or more instalments at maximum 25k?

Bonuses

Some time ago, we agreed to decrease the WR on BETAT and see how it goes. Well, from revenue perspective - not well. Having early withdrawal available and matching low WR with competitors that do not allow early withdraws, saw us give over 70% of generated revenue back. Financially, the maths don't work out. (That's excluding ongoing comps)

What the players seem to not mind, is having their deposit locked in until bonus turnover and what they seem to appreciate more than "free real money" is low turnover. We're changing our bonusing system to comply with what the people want - locked in deposits and low WR. This change will be live in October.

Seems good - after all the headline WR is what attracts players. When you get over 35x it starts seeming unattainable.


Until then, we need to go back to the 60x turnover, otherwise i'm risking the entire accounts department declaring open war on the entire marketing department.

Those are the cliff-notes from the valid complaints i've seen.

Lastly - UK licence & vynil's comment. We're, as all are, seriously considering it. Things from the business perspective have not been made exceptionally clear by the UKGC as of yet, so i think everyone is waiting for some common questions to be answered.

Yes, if the UK government/civil servants are ever involved in any matter it always goes wrong, slowly and inefficiently.


Thanks

Igor

I don't think there is any bad intent here at SV, just seems it has been rushed and ill-considered and has run the wrath of the hawks and vultures on CM like me.....:D
 
Low margin games are generally table games but id also not like to limit this term for a couple of good reasons

1) there are slots at less than 2% margin (over 98% RTP) which makes them less profitable than roulette.
2) i wouldn't want to have a case where (as it happened) a player comes makes a deposit with paysafe, plays it EXACTLY 1 time on bloodsuckers (super low variance high RTP slot) at minimum and tries to withdraw to wallet/card/bank over 95%/98% of their deposit.

The term should stay on the harsh side for good reason and it is a term present on vast majority of operators for a good reason. On the other hand, while i like clarity, defining scenarios time and again on such terms means id have to perpetually review them every time we launch new games, add a product or a provider.

This allows a balance: we stipulate not to enforce it without appropriate justification which can be vetoed here, publicly or with LGA while on the other hand we allow ourselves sufficient protection wihtout having to induce charges on deposits & withdrawals.
 
I don't think there is any bad intent here at SV, just seems it has been rushed and ill-considered and has run the wrath of the hawks and vultures on CM like me.....:D

I agree - however the "FU clauses" have become problematic and received a FU denominator in the first place, due to Rogue operators abusing them. Just like bonuses became more and more stringent due to AP's - its a two-way road.

This however isn't a vague FU clause. We sincerely may choose to not process withdrawals but we force ourselves into justification, meaning no replies on the lines of "this will not be discussed further" and puts us in a position of defending it publicly every time its enforced. Its a far more balanced approach than "this is how it will be".

Also, to put it in perspective - across the entire player DB the % of players that have wagered their lifetime deposits, (including players with only 1 deposit) less than 5 times is under 0.3%; if we exclude 1-time depositors it goes down to 0.08% - out of which 99% are AML cases. What's written above can be applied to a very specific player scenario and a very rare anomaly. I looked at your account actually and so should you - just to see how rare under 5x dep turnover on a legitimate account is :)

2 - player wining 500K will get 10 50K instalments. Player winning 250K will get 10 25K instalments, player winning 100K will get 4 25K instalments, player winning 40K will get 2 instalments (25+15), player winning 10k will get it in under 4 hours.

i think the rest passed the test lol :)
 
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I agree - however the "FU clauses" have become problematic and received a FU denominator in the first place, due to Rogue operators abusing them. Just like bonuses became more and more stringent due to AP's - its a two-way road.

This however isn't a vague FU clause. We sincerely may choose to not process withdrawals but we force ourselves into justification, meaning no replies on the lies on "this will not be discussed further" and puts us in a position of defending it publicly every time its enforced. Its a far more balanced approach than "this is how it will be".

Also, to put it in perspective - across the entire player DB the % of players that have wagered their lifetime deposits, (including players with only 1 deposit) less than 5 times is under 0.3%; if we exclude 1-time depositors it goes down to 0.08% - out of which 99% are AML cases. What's written above can be applied to a very specific player scenario and a very rare anomaly. I looked at your account actually and so should you - just to see how rare under 5x dep turnover on a legitimate account is :)

2 - player wining 500K will get 10 50K instalments. Player winning 250K will get 10 25K instalments, player winning 100K will get 4 25K instalments, player winning 40K will get 2 instalments (25+15), player winning 10k will get it in under 4 hours.

i think the rest passed the test lol :)

I daren't look as the thought depresses me. But yes, I know I'm well over the 5 x threshold. Given the rarity of those falling foul or the 5 x scenario then surely as I said it is an anti-AP clause in effect? The question remains (and this is the moot area) that a first-time depositor may get lucky and then fall foul of the rule. So, to prevent his coming here PAB-ing with his pitchfork, how at that stage do you differentiate him from a one-hit wonder AP or somebody who will redeposit and become a regular player and good customer? If you exercise this clause he will not become the latter because he will quit the site, and then you have actually made him into the former thus creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I hope you guys are good judges...;)
 
Not anti AP , anti ML :)

As for the judging, it really isnt so clear cut - we do look at it on case by case basis. If you were sitting on this side of the fence, the reason for early WD are so painfully obvious, there wouldn't be a doubt in your mind.

A guy depositing 100, wagering 100 and withdrawing 98 is vastly different to a guy that deposits 100, plays "normally" but strikes lucky early and withdraws winnings. its a no-brainer but to define any and every outcome of what & why we decide to give absolute clarity is more counter productive then beneficial. I'm counting on a level of trust that we have proven our capacity for fair player treatment while also noting that this much scrutiny can probably be found here alone.
 
Not anti AP , anti ML :)

As for the judging, it really isnt so clear cut - we do look at it on case by case basis. If you were sitting on this side of the fence, the reason for early WD are so painfully obvious, there wouldn't be a doubt in your mind.

A guy depositing 100, wagering 100 and withdrawing 98 is vastly different to a guy that deposits 100, plays "normally" but strikes lucky early and withdraws winnings. its a no-brainer but to define any and every outcome of what & why we decide to give absolute clarity is more counter productive then beneficial. I'm counting on a level of trust that we have proven our capacity for fair player treatment while also noting that this much scrutiny can probably be found here alone.

I'm very glad I'm not in your shoes, or on your side of the fence Igor tbh. Running a casino sounds like a real pain in the butt!

In an effort to remain completely objective, I understand the casinos concerns from a business perspective, and the need to protect ones self from potential AP's and/or ML scammers - undesirables.

It's obviously a fine line though when it comes to deciding who fits and who doesn't fit into the undesirables category in very early stages of account membership, particularly when judging new account holders depositing for the first time.

A player attacking a LM/LV game off the cusp and wagering their deposit ~ x1 times, prior to requesting a withdrawal very close to their original deposit is a bit suspect, and may indeed point towards AP and/or money laundering efforts, I agree.

Separating the wolves from the lambs isn't always clear cut however. Understandably, cases will arise on occasion where new players opt solely to play LM/LV slots or LM table games, because their bankroll is very limited, and they simply can't afford to risk too much on sign up. Ordinarily though, they wouldn't mind having the option to deposit more, and take more risk, across a range of games - HV/MV/LV slots and live games. etc. So, they play it safe to get reasonable play time, and hopefully achieve a win.

If they were to get lucky early on playing just one select LV slot, and their total wager is < x5, do they deserve to be penalised? On this side of the fence, the majority of the answers would likely be no, but on your side of the fence, the answer may well be yes, because from a casinos perspective it appears suspect.

That's the fine line though isn't it. The casino doesn't have sufficient information about a new players intentions, or usual style of play, hence a decision is made based on experience, AP/laundering statistics etc. To be fair, I understand you guys aren't mind readers, and don't profess to be in the players heads at all times. You use the tools available to you, as do we players. It's a two sided affair, as you say.

Commenting on my own usual play style, I would easily wager my deposit x5 in most cases, so I'm not particularly fussed on the rule. Having said that, it would be comforting to know that I can request a withdrawal as a newbie, if I play any slot with my funds only (no bonus), win big after say just 2 spins of the button (however unlikely), and not have to worry about the option to withdraw immediately after wagering at least x1 (for the purposes of fulfilling the min REQ for the money laundering term).

Again, my previous paragraph implies our side of the fence philosophy, and the casino will judge in the manner it sees fit. Hopefully, the judgment would be that I'm an honest player who just happened to get lucky very early on, and hence deserves benefit of the doubt, and hence payment. Again, it's a fine line, but opting to trust a newbie isn't an AP only, and forecasting loyalty on the players part could lead to future business. Of course, it may not.

Since the T&C's don't provide 100% insurance (what some players may require, and what appears more and more to be a rather unrealistic outlook) I imagine some will shy away from depositing at this stage.
Having said that, I understand that if casinos offered such insurance, they would most likely get taken advantage of by a myriad of players, so the line has to be drawn somewhere. I really get that!

I think that players who decide they want to give Slotty Vegas a try despite discontent on select T&C's, will have to simply trust to some extent that the BetAt group will exercise good and fair judgment in the majority of the cases, when it comes to applying select T&C's particularly the up to x5 wagering rule.

As you have correctly pointed out, any player complaints that may arise as a result of issues associated with select T&C's, that haven't successfully been resolved between the player and the casino, can be protested here (in the correct way, via PAB for eg) and elsewhere. So, it's not the end of the road if a player feels he has been treated unfairly, right? Touch wood, that rarely happens.

I for one appreciate your efforts in addressing member concerns here ASAP, and whilst there will naturally be a few here, perhaps more than a few, that will not budge on their views, and unequivocally disagree with select casino rules, I think it's reasonable to give you guys the benefit of any doubt, especially after effort has been made to amend select T&C's to a standard which I feel is fairly reasonable for both sides of the fence.

To my knowledge, and please correct me if I'm wrong, BetAt have had no real issues with customers to date. Hence their accreditation here. I can't imagine your latest venture will be any different based on that. Of course, time will tell.

FYI, I'm not currently a member of any of your casinos. Nor have I been in the past. Just trying to be fair.

Best wishes...
 
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Slightly off the current topic, Do existing BETAT verified players have to send in documents again to be a verified player at Slotty Vegas?
 

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