Ask me anything (about slots)!

[snorky510238]

Donuts are very bad for your health, so is this slot.
But I actually start to like it, no massive wins yet but I see and feel the potential.
I enjoy this slot more than Bonanza which is for me one of the worst slots ever designed.

Sorry for being off topic there for a second Trance.

By the way if someone does hit donuts big I hope your the lucky one.

 

[BrianGhattas]

How much money is needed to design a slot and what happens if a slot makes no money for the manufacturer? Certainly, Bonanza, Dead or Alive and Immortal Romance have made a shitload of money for their companies but what about a massive bust such as Playboy Gold or any of Net Entertainment’s latest releases?

 

[trancemonkey]

The amount of money a slot costs depends on many variables... but mainly the more features, the more expensive it is. The more graphics, and the better the graphics, the more expensive it is. The more time you put in to maths, the more expensive it is.

You can be like some of the smaller companies online and just get cheap graphics and produce there games with the same maths but different graphics. They can be very cheap to make... but the bigger games, they can easily be up and over the 250k mark to make.

Games need to have a wide release. The more sites you put a game on the more likely you are to cover the costs. Games with staying power are Cash Cows like those you mention... they will cover the cost of am a bad games

 

[VismundCygnus]

On that note, do you have general goals for each slot you make in terms of revenues? After how many days do you need to earn back what you put in for you to consider the game a hit vs average vs bad?

 

[ddt]

Hi,

I am wondering how slot slots producers always obtain those round payouts. It must be ridiculously hard with complex formulas and rigid ROI. Are video slots designed the same way as ordinary slots:
eg. the reel has 50 stops, so each stop has 2% chance of hitting. Or is it like this: the stop with cherries has 2.538787% chance to hit and the stop with bananas has 1.53544% chance to hit, so that the numbers add up?

Thank you in advance for help.

 

[trancemonkey]

On that note, do you have general goals for each slot you make in terms of revenues? After how many days do you need to earn back what you put in for you to consider the game a hit vs average vs bad?

Well of course we want to make our money back and more so on every slot... But not every slot is successful. A lot of the industry expects around a third of the games to be successful. Of course the measure of success is different for every company... But yes as producers we have targets. If we keep making bad games our job is at risk

 

[trancemonkey]

Hi,

I am wondering how slot slots producers always obtain those round payouts. It must be ridiculously hard with complex formulas and rigid ROI. Are video slots designed the same way as ordinary slots:
eg. the reel has 50 stops, so each stop has 2% chance of hitting. Or is it like this: the stop with cherries has 2.538787% chance to hit and the stop with bananas has 1.53544% chance to hit, so that the numbers add up?

Thank you in advance for help.

It's not that hard actually.. And no not every stop will have the same chance of landing (on most games).

 

[nikantw]

I want to ask about the Mega Moolah, since it is at 9 mil ATM.
I remember an old post that said the jackpot hits radomly, but MG can decide when it is going to be paid. That makes sense, having it go so high now to recover from the tournament cancellation disaster.

My question is about the Jackpot Wheel. When is the win decided? Is it the moment you get the feature, or the moment the wheel stops?
If it is when the wheel stops then you need to spin it as fast as possible before someone else gets the prize first!!

Another question would be how the chance for the jackpot depends on the bet size. I mean, they say it does but is it 2x bet = 2x chance? Or 2x bet = 20x chance? Or .....

 

[zap987]

It's not that hard actually.. And no not every stop will have the same chance of landing (on most games).

This is a bit surprising, as pretty much every game where we've seen the reel strips and analyzed it has appeared to have equal chances for each stop with RTP being correct in simulations. What is even the point of long reels if you're then going to add a 2nd factor with weighting the stops? Microgaming had it on some of their really old slots but those also had 10-12 symbols per reel.

 

[trancemonkey]

This is a bit surprising, as pretty much every game where we've seen the reel strips and analyzed it has appeared to have equal chances for each stop with RTP being correct in simulations. What is even the point of long reels if you're then going to add a 2nd factor with weighting the stops? Microgaming had it on some of their really old slots but those also had 10-12 symbols per reel.

Don't get me wrong... I still occasionally do games with even distribution but it's very rare. Especially now games are much more complex.

 

[Reelsoffun]

Would explain why IGT games are not great lol some real stinkers lately lol

 

[trancemonkey]

Would explain why IGT games are not great lol some real stinkers lately lol

How maths are done has no effect on whether the game is good or not...

The maths itself, rather than the logic behind it, is what makes a game. Whether reels are weighted or not makes not one iota of difference.

I'm not at liberty to comment on the quality of IGT games. It's for you as players to determine whether they are good or not. I dont work in the online department so it's nothing to do with me whether they are good or not anyway.

I'm sure there are people checking out these threads so feel free to share your own opinions and thoughts.

 

[goatwack]

How maths are done has no effect on whether the game is good or not...

The maths itself, rather than the logic behind it, is what makes a game. Whether reels are weighted or not makes not one iota of difference.

I'm not at liberty to comment on the quality of IGT games. It's for you as players to determine whether they are good or not. I dont work in the online department so it's nothing to do with me whether they are good or not anyway.

I'm sure there are people checking out these threads so feel free to share your own opinions and thoughts.

But MetaGU is fair game You're always slagging off other designers given half a chance

Always putting your dukes up, ready to rumble. Don't deny it

 

[zap987]

A lot of the time it does affect the quality of a game though, at least for some players like me. It affects the overall feel of play when you see reels spinning with symbols that never actually land at anything close to the frequency it looks like they should, not to mention if they do stuff like landing scatters just above or under. It is perfectly possible to make a complex game while still giving a good visual representation of actual chances of hitting the different wins.

Of course there are lots of game developers taking shortcuts and in the end producing bad games. One of Netents few decent games in past years is Jungle Spirit, and it still suffers from the awful random feature, has anyone ever won anything on this past 30x bet? If you're going to give the player a 10-30x win, then do that, just throw the coins out, don't fake it and pretend the reels spinning matter. One of the worst on abusing this is Elk, pretty much every single game of theirs feels like it just decides on a win and then finds a spin that matches it. The same game could be done with just doing better maths and letting the reels decide and it would just feel better to play, but I guess the amount of players that think that way is small enough to be ignored?

There are some good examples of games being done right out there, for example 3dice have some where you clearly see the odds in features with a ball dropping in a series of 50/50 chances, like Medieval Moolah and Fortune Falls. I'd be very surprised if those games use any kind of weighting for the reels too.

BTG games just feel right, you can look at the reel strips that have been datamined and compare to your own results and you can see that if the stars align you can win really big, not being capped by some arbitrary number some game developer thought was good enough. If you need something to be rare, just make 150 stop long reel strips like Donuts?

 

[slotmaster]

Trance is going to hate me but I don't like most IGT games and have never been able to do anything on them, My folks, on the other hand, enjoy more titles than me from IGT. Unless IGT is with WMS or aristocrat or is those swear words?.

 

[trancemonkey]

Trance is going to hate me but I don't like most IGT games and have never been able to do anything on them, My folks, on the other hand, enjoy more titles than me from IGT. Unless IGT is with WMS or aristocrat or is those swear words?.

Why would I hate you for having an opinion Plus I don't work in interactive so I don't take it personally anyway...

 

[trancemonkey]

A lot of the time it does affect the quality of a game though, at least for some players like me. It affects the overall feel of play when you see reels spinning with symbols that never actually land at anything close to the frequency it looks like they should, not to mention if they do stuff like landing scatters just above or under. It is perfectly possible to make a complex game while still giving a good visual representation of actual chances of hitting the different wins.

Of course there are lots of game developers taking shortcuts and in the end producing bad games. One of Netents few decent games in past years is Jungle Spirit, and it still suffers from the awful random feature, has anyone ever won anything on this past 30x bet? If you're going to give the player a 10-30x win, then do that, just throw the coins out, don't fake it and pretend the reels spinning matter. One of the worst on abusing this is Elk, pretty much every single game of theirs feels like it just decides on a win and then finds a spin that matches it. The same game could be done with just doing better maths and letting the reels decide and it would just feel better to play, but I guess the amount of players that think that way is small enough to be ignored?

There are some good examples of games being done right out there, for example 3dice have some where you clearly see the odds in features with a ball dropping in a series of 50/50 chances, like Medieval Moolah and Fortune Falls. I'd be very surprised if those games use any kind of weighting for the reels too.

BTG games just feel right, you can look at the reel strips that have been datamined and compare to your own results and you can see that if the stars align you can win really big, not being capped by some arbitrary number some game developer thought was good enough. If you need something to be rare, just make 150 stop long reel strips like Donuts?

150 stops isn't long...

 

[gerilege]

Don't get me wrong... I still occasionally do games with even distribution but it's very rare. Especially now games are much more complex.

Can you please share some examples why it may be preferred to use uneven distribution of reel stops?

 

[deucebag]

A lot of the time it does affect the quality of a game though, at least for some players like me. It affects the overall feel of play when you see reels spinning with symbols that never actually land at anything close to the frequency it looks like they should, not to mention if they do stuff like landing scatters just above or under. It is perfectly possible to make a complex game while still giving a good visual representation of actual chances of hitting the different wins.

Agreed. Reel stops and displays have to "feel" random for me to like a game. Some games are just so obviously weighted you just feel like you're playing a rigged game.

 

[dionysus]

Agreed. Reel stops and displays have to "feel" random for me to like a game. Some games are just so obviously weighted you just feel like you're playing a rigged game.

hey, at least you're clever enough to recognize the distinction between weighted and rigged - i think that took up 20 pages

 

[goatwack]

It took me 79 pages to learn what random means

It's when the casinos let you win for a bit

 

[paul7388]

It took me 79 pages to learn what random means

It's when the casinos let you win for a bit

No have you not took in anything that has been posted in the last 79 pages.

What you are describing is Rigged not Random

 

[goatwack]

No have you not took in anything that has been posted in the last 79 pages.

What you are describing is Rigged not Random

Ok, got it!

So what's compenrigged then

 

[paul7388]

Ok, got it!

So what's compenrigged then

That my dear friend is similar to Randomsated. Keep up will you

 

[TheAddict]

Ssss

 

[slotmaster]

Ok trance I am trying to think if IGT has done it but one of the next slot's you do should have revealing symbols included like diamond mine with the barrels or Exotic Treasure by wms. It has not been done widely though yes I know there is more slot's than the 2 I listed but if so can I have at least a royalty?

 

[Jono777]

Here's a potential toughie and one I totally understand if you cannot answer, even an educated guess would do please

With regards to rewards (wager free stuff so no protection for the casinos from WR) - Percentage of profits wise, how much do you think these affect casinos overall profit.

(yes I'm on about our beloved VS!) - I'd err about 3-4% but could be way off?????

Bigger the player base, smaller the risk maybe, yes more rewards to pay out but also a lot more deposits and players playing at -4% ???

Cheers

JM

 

[trancemonkey]

I don't know for definite, but i would hazard a guess that pomotions / marketing / rewards etc. account for about 1%.
Put it like this - if most games are running around 95 to 96, there is very little margin (only around 4% maximum) there in order to make sure your "casino economy" is running high enough to engage people as best you can, but low enough that you make money.

 

[mack341]

I don't know for definite, but i would hazard a guess that pomotions / marketing / rewards etc. account for about 1%.
Put it like this - if most games are running around 95 to 96, there is very little margin (only around 4% maximum) there in order to make sure your "casino economy" is running high enough to engage people as best you can, but low enough that you make money.

This rtp factor confuses me, let's say a 1,000 players deposit a £1,000 each over the course of a month and all play the same 96% rtp game exclusively at £2 a spin, my belief is the casino will better off than £40,000 profit from the £1,000,000 deposited, as the 4% edge is cumulative per 100 spins?

 

[Reelsoffun]

They would make 4% on average, of the VTP

If each of the 1000 players just played 1000 each but kept all the winnings then 1,000,000 VTP = £40,000 profit.

However if the players then played through some or all of their wins eg recycled play then the casino would make on average 4% of the VTP ( Value of TOTAL play )


This is the main bit people do not understand when it comes to playing slots, that you have to also count all the wins you have played through as well as your deposit.


Suppose for example you deposit 1000 and play the whole 1000 in bonanza at £2 (500 plays )
And you end up with 1020 as it gave you good base wins etc.

Then you play the 1020 through ( another 510 plays ) and you now have only 960 left.

To some they would think that was a good play and the slot hit its RTP of 96% as only lost 40 from the 1000 and even though it was only a relatively short session its actually really paid 98% so its paid even better than you think, and more to the point, over its RTP even tho it might not feel like it and yes you guessed it your going to be in for a worse ride overall sooner or later to get to the expected RTP.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[mack341]

So if the 1,000 players did 500 spins each at £2 and then withdrew their balance, overall the players would withdraw about £960,000 approx?

or does it work out as 5 x 40,000 as they had done 5x100 spins, so they would withdraw about 800,000

 

[Reelsoffun]

On an average day they could expect to withdraw the 960,000 between them but that is never likely to happen, on such a small sample size it could be between two extremes of say 200,000 - 2,000,000 between them.

If you knew the exact volitility index of the slot ( which your not going to get ) you would work out the lowest and highest expected from x amount of spins.

 

[gambyx7]

Did a little experiment with one of my favourite slots.

You can call it stupid kind of playing (and I will agree), but it does tell something about randomness.

Standared bet, 0.60. I had 50 spins in every session. After nine sessions (just a minute of pause between them) I bust. My top win was 4.5x in 3 sessions, other had top pay of gigantum 3x. Had NO free spins.

Cold streak? Maybe. But for 450 spins this is bloody too much.

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

Why is there even an 88%RTP version of Centurion on UK Storm cabinets at £2 stake???

Secondly - How comes the online version of centurion at a much higher %age than the above is even worse!!! Almost impossible to bonus! Yet most of the features are terrible.

 

[trancemonkey]

The percentage variants are requested by the operator... As have providers we always want to give the players the highest RTP we can, but sometimes markets can't sustain high RTP games. I don't know the exact reason why Centurion is on 88% but my guess is it's a low traffic site and therefore the operator needs to increase the cash retained in order to make it viable.

There could be other reasons but I'm not going to speculate. The simple fact is if you don't like it, don't play it

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

It’s on 88% on all storm 1 units now. It’s global not a single site thing.

Can I also ask why if you’re playing on lower stakes is it deemed you should get a poorer payout?? Of course this isn’t just that particular game but a widespread issue amongst all slots. I realise this isn’t your decision! Just interested in your opinion.

 

[JGslots]

Hello Trance. This question relates to C/B3/B2 UK markets.

There are many games in the U.K. that have progressive Pots. What I want to know is how the maths is calculated when the pots reach their capacity.

Centurion now has pots, when these pots reach their maximum, where does the money that's fed into them go? As they don't have a reserve pot.

I remember having a conversion with Steve who works for Greentube saying that it becomes potentially positive ev to play the game once the bronze pot reaches a ceratin amount.

I just don't feel like games such as money mad Martians, rainbow games, Reel King Potty put the feed into the pots anywhere else when the pot levels have increased to their maximum.

The most interesting game by far was the BetDigital Mega Pots, which awards players the pots between win ranges, which obviously makes it a lot easier as a player to decide which unit to play.

I don't see why more manufacturers adopt this? Project have released a mega pots version of their game, but the win range is that large, it's near on pointless in order to gain an advantage unless it's very close.

I think there's a market online for these type of slots for small staking players, like a pot that has to drop by say £100, it's not much money, but gives an element of fun and sense of community.

Lots of questions there about pots.

Rob

 

[trancemonkey]

It’s on 88% on all storm 1 units now. It’s global not a single site thing.

Can I also ask why if you’re playing on lower stakes is it deemed you should get a poorer payout?? Of course this isn’t just that particular game but a widespread issue amongst all slots. I realise this isn’t your decision! Just interested in your opinion.

It's a "bet up incentive"...

 

[trancemonkey]

Hello Trance. This question relates to C/B3/B2 UK markets.

There are many games in the U.K. that have progressive Pots. What I want to know is how the maths is calculated when the pots reach their capacity.

Centurion now has pots, when these pots reach their maximum, where does the money that's fed into them go? As they don't have a reserve pot.

I remember having a conversion with Steve who works for Greentube saying that it becomes potentially positive ev to play the game once the bronze pot reaches a ceratin amount.

I just don't feel like games such as money mad Martians, rainbow games, Reel King Potty put the feed into the pots anywhere else when the pot levels have increased to their maximum.

The most interesting game by far was the BetDigital Mega Pots, which awards players the pots between win ranges, which obviously makes it a lot easier as a player to decide which unit to play.

I don't see why more manufacturers adopt this? Project have released a mega pots version of their game, but the win range is that large, it's near on pointless in order to gain an advantage unless it's very close.

I think there's a market online for these type of slots for small staking players, like a pot that has to drop by say £100, it's not much money, but gives an element of fun and sense of community.

Lots of questions there about pots.

Rob

You're correct... most games in the UK do not escrow the extra money anywhere. So this RTP is lost...

You're right about games with pots... it is to your advantage to play some pots games when they are over their average value.

Of course this doesn't in any way guarantee you a win... or that you will make money.

Games with pots only really work on stand-alone machines... there isn't enough throughput of money on multigame machines for pots to be interesting. On-line I'm not sure there are many must-hit-by progressives. This is likely due to the potential issue of coinciding hits...

 

[VismundCygnus]

Would you make a game you knew was going to be in Vegas casinos differently than others? Is the appetite different in vegas compared to other places?

 

[Spikie]

Following on from JG’s question, on uk £500 / fobt, can you say how they are programmed with normal wins / bonus that go over the jackpot ?

A jackpot can be paid within 1 or 2 free spins on a bonus , so how do you dispose of the rest of the game round ?

I’m assuming somehow there must be some sort of payback into some sort of rtp calculator ? Or is that against the rules for randomness ?

Do you have a fobt equation that you add on to a normal game code to change the calculations ?

 

[Jono777]

Not going to start foil hatting but what do you make of this trance? (prior to thought's this has NEVER happened in 15 years)

25 x £25 deposits

Games played (As I have done for ages where available and prior to this query)

Thunderstruck
Immortal Romance
Creature from Lagoon
Cap'n Venture
Dolphin's Pearl
Book of Ra
Jurassic Park
Donuts (a recent addition,not as common as others in list)
Raging Rhino

Losses 25 out of 25
Above starting balance at some point 3/25
Fast bust outs (less than an hour play time) 17/25
Stakes 0.20/0.30 depending on slot
Time frame: Over last month - 6 weeks
Site: The same one every deposit (Accredited casino here)

Not another rigged post, honest but to me these stats defy the very nature / meaning of the word "gambling"
Appreciate these are mostly HV slots but as I say, played these for years mostly and it had always been lose some, win some and never, get destroyed without mercy as my post will highlight.

Walking into an old arcade, playing same machines, you'd win/lose/break even.

I can think of no explanation, no one's cold spell ever goes this bad. Only remote idea I have is that yes, slots ARE fair and RANDOM but they do take previous wins and hits into consideration maybe?

As I say again not boring you with another rigged post but having never experienced this in such a long time of online play, really at my wits end here!!

 

[paul7388]

Okay Jon can i say something that you might not agree with.

Out of that list i do not play any slot except CFTBL which i used to play loads but rarely do now.

The rest i have tried and i just bust out.

Immortal Romance years ago i played several times and every time i bust out in minutes. Never once had a run on that slot. As for novo games the times i play them with say a £20 balance i always bust out real quick. CFTBL i used to play loads but i could often go many deposits before i got a good turn.

Not for me to say but with the amount of slots out do you never think about just playing completely different slots.

I get some wins and some losses but most of the time i at least get playtime by playing different slots from that list.

To be honest i do better at WH than any other site. But again i avoid slots like the ones you mentioned. i do play bonanza there and seem to do better there than elsewhere. But i try all the different slots. Even that kingdom slot they have i have only played a few times but still got over a £100 on a 10p stake last week lol.

I know you have your favourites but they are all games where if you don't hit quick you will bust. Like me you only do small deposits but for those sort of slots it is realistic to bust out quick. Remember a £25 deposit with dead spins is less than a 100 spins on some of those slots so quite realistic you can bust out so often in a row.

Anyway just thought id share my experiences. Play loads of different slots and get more playtime works for me lol. And to be honest i play the site you are talking about and sometimes get a withdrawal. But maybe i am just luckier but i definitely get much more playtime and cashouts from the bookie sites.

 

[pinnit2014]

Even on minimum stakes, a 25 can bust out without any play and if you’re spreading them out then it’s possible to bust out 25 days in a row of daily 25 dippers. Without chasing that’s why I upped my deposits to ‘warm’ them up - once it’s gone though it’s gone.

There’s a good few Novos there and as you probably know they can be 50 quid or above on minimum stakes sometimes.

Hold on... are you not as likely to hit on the first spin as much as the 1000th?

 

[goatwack]

£25 always seemed like a reasonable starting point, I've used that as default for years with good success.

Enough margin for error to reasonably expect to get a good balance-boosting hit, and maybe look to slowly increase bets and look to build a balance, that lost artform

But yes, old favourites and newer games have been absolutely, how to put this..... 'mean' over the last two to three years. More than usual

Haven't had a 'great' cash out in yonks, and the ratio of deposits-to-withdrawals has tanked, bearing in mind it's the same games, same stakes, same 'tactics'

So I guess when all's said and done, this thread had to come full- circle eventually

 

[SpinUk]

Not going to start foil hatting but what do you make of this trance? (prior to thought's this has NEVER happened in 15 years)

25 x £25 deposits

Games played (As I have done for ages where available and prior to this query)

Thunderstruck
Immortal Romance
Creature from Lagoon
Cap'n Venture
Dolphin's Pearl
Book of Ra
Jurassic Park
Donuts (a recent addition,not as common as others in list)
Raging Rhino

Losses 25 out of 25
Above starting balance at some point 3/25
Fast bust outs (less than an hour play time) 17/25
Stakes 0.20/0.30 depending on slot
Time frame: Over last month - 6 weeks
Site: The same one every deposit (Accredited casino here)

Not another rigged post, honest but to me these stats defy the very nature / meaning of the word "gambling"
Appreciate these are mostly HV slots but as I say, played these for years mostly and it had always been lose some, win some and never, get destroyed without mercy as my post will highlight.

Walking into an old arcade, playing same machines, you'd win/lose/break even.

I can think of no explanation, no one's cold spell ever goes this bad. Only remote idea I have is that yes, slots ARE fair and RANDOM but they do take previous wins and hits into consideration maybe?

As I say again not boring you with another rigged post but having never experienced this in such a long time of online play, really at my wits end here!!

Your game list pretty much matches mine

 

[mack341]

The shocking thing to remember also is most of the games open with £2 preset as the standard stake, so the £625 loss could have been £6,250!!

 

[trancemonkey]

Would you make a game you knew was going to be in Vegas casinos differently than others? Is the appetite different in vegas compared to other places?

We tailor games to the markets they are aimed at, yes ..

 

[trancemonkey]

Not going to start foil hatting but what do you make of this trance? (prior to thought's this has NEVER happened in 15 years)

25 x £25 deposits

Games played (As I have done for ages where available and prior to this query)

Thunderstruck
Immortal Romance
Creature from Lagoon
Cap'n Venture
Dolphin's Pearl
Book of Ra
Jurassic Park
Donuts (a recent addition,not as common as others in list)
Raging Rhino

Losses 25 out of 25
Above starting balance at some point 3/25
Fast bust outs (less than an hour play time) 17/25
Stakes 0.20/0.30 depending on slot
Time frame: Over last month - 6 weeks
Site: The same one every deposit (Accredited casino here)

Not another rigged post, honest but to me these stats defy the very nature / meaning of the word "gambling"
Appreciate these are mostly HV slots but as I say, played these for years mostly and it had always been lose some, win some and never, get destroyed without mercy as my post will highlight.

Walking into an old arcade, playing same machines, you'd win/lose/break even.

I can think of no explanation, no one's cold spell ever goes this bad. Only remote idea I have is that yes, slots ARE fair and RANDOM but they do take previous wins and hits into consideration maybe?

As I say again not boring you with another rigged post but having never experienced this in such a long time of online play, really at my wits end here!!

If it's never happened in 15 years, I'd say it pure bad luck. If it happened regularly then you could put your time foil hat on

 

[Steviedoo]

If it's never happened in 15 years, I'd say it pure bad luck. If it happened regularly then you could put your time foil hat on

Or change casino