Ask me anything (about slots)!

[Monnii]

Hello, you probably didnt see my first questions, but i'd have another one to dispell, as i was angry for weeks when this once happened: had been on a really long doa cold spell, still am infact as i havent got a wildline or 5 scatters since last january, with weekly pay. But anyway here it goes:

Played dead or alive (the old version, at 1,8€ really pretty much going up and down from a 450€ starting balance, after around 1000 spins i went bust, hadnt gotten the bonus in ~300 spins, 3 cents left on account so i put three lines on and hit spin, 3 scatters
And then, 9 wilds, with line 5 being a wildline, and then i cant remember mor e from the sheer anger, but won 4,91€ from that, rather than probably 6000€^ since they came in early.
So, was this just random? That the one single spin i decided to play caused this. Find it very. Very hard to believe.

Sorry for the long post!

 

[Tengil]

I've seen the same thing happen many many time, although I've never documented it.

Also something I noticed on, mainly, IR. If you get say Sarah on just reels 1, 2, 4 & 5, there is almost always a scatter in the missing position, reel 3.
It's the same if the missing Sarah is on reel 1 or 2, It's almost always filled with a scatter. and then as you say the Sarah lands on the next spin in the missing position

Also you extremely often have Sarah/wild either one above or under, same as wild in the middle of last reel when you have 2 scatters etc. Happens of course way more often than it should be statistically possible. MG isn't even that bad when you compare to Swedish providers, especially Quickspin, PnG and ELK.
Its just to give the player the feeling that he is close to winning and get them hooked. As I linked earlier this is the only reason they do it:

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Saw a short documentary about slot development (some Swedish studio) where they monitored the brain activity of the players to see what kind of "stuff" triggered certain brain activities. Like near misses, "big" win animations, sound effects etc. All to get the players more easily hooked/addicted.

In the end slots should be treated like graphically enhanced scratchcards with bells and whistles. That's what they basically are.

 

[trancemonkey]

I've seen the same thing happen many many time, although I've never documented it.

Also something I noticed on, mainly, IR. If you get say Sarah on just reels 1, 2, 4 & 5, there is almost always a scatter in the missing position, reel 3.
It's the same if the missing Sarah is on reel 1 or 2, It's almost always filled with a scatter. and then as you say the Sarah lands on the next spin in the missing position

That's almost certainly due to weighted reels strips being chosen for that spin. There is nothing to stop the game random choosing on a given spin to pick some reel positions from a set of reels that are highly weighted to certain outcomes as long as every possible outcome had the same chance of happening at the moment the start button was pressed (I.e the results weren't dependent on anything that had happened previously... No compensation or dependencies on previous or future games.)

This is why you might be more likely to see certain reel positions than others when playing games. Why do you think on Twin spin, when you get bars land in view on reels 1 and 2 you seem to have a higher chance of getting a match on reel 3... Feels like that to me. But this is still OK, legal and most importantly random because the decision at the point of pressing start uses the same chances as on every other spin.

 

[trancemonkey]

Hello, you probably didnt see my first questions, but i'd have another one to dispell, as i was angry for weeks when this once happened: had been on a really long doa cold spell, still am infact as i havent got a wildline or 5 scatters since last january, with weekly pay. But anyway here it goes:

Played dead or alive (the old version, at 1,8€ really pretty much going up and down from a 450€ starting balance, after around 1000 spins i went bust, hadnt gotten the bonus in ~300 spins, 3 cents left on account so i put three lines on and hit spin, 3 scatters
And then, 9 wilds, with line 5 being a wildline, and then i cant remember mor e from the sheer anger, but won 4,91€ from that, rather than probably 6000€^ since they came in early.
So, was this just random? That the one single spin i decided to play caused this. Find it very. Very hard to believe.

Sorry for the long post!

Short answer... Yes it was random. Would you be so angry and quick to claim it was rigged if it had happened when playing on full lines with normal bet? No of course not...

 

[trancemonkey]

I have a couple of questions, when i have played book of dead the last couple of days, i first lost 900€ betting between 1-2€ without hitting freespins with about 30% rtp, but almost everytime i got two scatters, the third one landed on last reel one below, is that to make you more hooked to keep playing? And today i played 500€ at 0,50-1€ bet without hitting freespins a single time, again with the same thing happening, almost everytime meaning around 8/10 times i got two scatters, the last one landed one below. And my other question:
When everyones speaking of a slot being hot or cold, as it was for me "cold" at the time bc of not hitting. Is the rtp the same 24/7 or can it be adjustet to like 30% at some times and 110% at others to get to the 90-something percent?
And a last one, if a player loses frequently and still keeps playing, could a casino, seeing this then turn down basically the rtp for one and concentrate that to players who usually stop playing when they hit a cold streak, still maintaining the 97% rtp on slots? I am asking as i am shamefully down 49000 in about 7 months with playing between 0,5€-2€ spins.

Short answer is no the casinos can't do that. Games are provided with a number of different RTP settings. Some may only have one, some a lot more. But none will be lower than about 94% online... Most of them will be over 96%.

Random games behave very strangely... The nature of random dictates that sometimes they will go hot, sometimes cold and sometimes anywhere inbetween. It is human nature to look for patterns in things... It's why we think we see faces in the clouds or on rocks or in the shadows...

Our brains like to look for reasons why things happen in the same way some people belive in God - because they struggle to rationalise the stuff we don't understand and God or a creator is a convenient answer that plugs those gaps.

It's the same with everything Harry and a few others are saying.. These things just don't happen (forcing in symbols, changing RTP, doing weird stuff with bet size) but when things are going badly and we are losing we look for patterns. We look for reasons.

I get it, I was the same. I still am sometimes even though I KNOW they are random.

 

[Monnii]

Short answer... Yes it was random. Would you be so angry and quick to claim it was rigged if it had happened when playing on full lines with normal bet? No of course not...

Ofcourse i wouldnt, but if i play 100+ thousand thousand spins on a game,with full lines. And dont get a wildline, it is pretty astounding that the one spin that is three lines results in what would be fantastic freespins, if ofcourse, played full lines.

 

[trancemonkey]

Why is no one on this thread complaining about when they were playing a game, hit a really big win, staked up and then hit another one quickly. It will have happened to us all but no one is complaining that's rigged...

Simply because we don't look for problems when we're winning...

 

[Harry_BKK]

Why is no one on this thread complaining about when they were playing a game, hit a really big win, staked up and then hit another one quickly. It will have happened to us all but no one is complaining that's rigged...

Simply because we don't look for problems when we're winning...

Or simply because we are not winning that often!

 

[brianmon]

That's almost certainly due to weighted reels strips being chosen for that spin. There is nothing to stop the game random choosing on a given spin to pick some reel positions from a set of reels that are highly weighted to certain outcomes as long as every possible outcome had the same chance of happening at the moment the start button was pressed (I.e the results weren't dependent on anything that had happened previously... No compensation or dependencies on previous or future games.)

This is why you might be more likely to see certain reel positions than others when playing games. Why do you think on Twin spin, when you get bars land in view on reels 1 and 2 you seem to have a higher chance of getting a match on reel 3... Feels like that to me. But this is still OK, legal and most importantly random because the decision at the point of pressing start uses the same chances as on every other spin.

So the weighting due to the number and frequency of symbols on the reel strips isn't enough? They're also using something like virtual reels to increase the weighting, or pulling reel combinations from a database?

Here are the symbol counts for IR.

With those kind of odds of getting a 5OAK of the top paying symbols, you'd expect that the reel strips alone would provide enough weighting.

There's actually more chance of getting the missing Sarah on reel 3 , rather than one of the 2 scatters which are present on the strips. Yet almost always a scatter lands.



Reel1: Number of times the symbol occurs on Reel1
Reel2: Number of times the symbol occurs on Reel2
Reel3: Number of times the symbol occurs on Reel3
Reel4: Number of times the symbol occurs on Reel4
Reel5: Number of times the symbol occurs on Reel5

Reel1 pct.: Chance(%) of hitting the symbol on Reel1 (=Reel1*3/45 stops)
Reel2 pct.: Chance(%) of hitting the symbol on Reel2 (=Reel2*3/57 stops)
Reel3 pct.: Chance(%) of hitting the symbol on Reel3 (=Reel3*3/62 stops)
Reel4 pct.: Chance(%) of hitting the symbol on Reel4 (=Reel4*3/53 stops)
Reel5 pct.: Chance(%) of hitting the symbol on Reel5 (=Reel5*3/65 stops)

5oak pct.: Chance(%) of hitting 5 of a kind (=Reel1 pct*Reel2 pct*Reel3 pct*Reel4 pct*Reel5 pct)

Expected: expected number of hits (=Reel1 pct*Reel2 pct*Reel3 pct*Reel4 pct*Reel5 pct*1.052.399 spins)
Achieved: the number of times hit during 1.052.399 spins (normal spins - not bonus round or WildDesire, free play, 0.30 bet)


Thanks to kktmd who produced this table, many years ago

 

[trancemonkey]

Or simply because we are not winning that often!

So the weighting due to the number and frequency of symbols on the reel strips isn't enough? They're also using something like virtual reels to increase the weighting, or pulling reel combinations from a database?

I can't go in to too much detail for obvious reasons, but in simple terms yes games can use multiple different sets of virtual bands... As long as the chance of using each one remains constant...

There are many may ways of making games, all of which are random and fair. Some people may think that this complexity makes it less fair but actually the added complexity enables us to finely tune the games in a way that means we can make the games really exciting yet totally fair, random and above board.

That's my job and thats what I love doing

 

[brianmon]

I can't go in to too much detail for obvious reasons, but in simple terms yes games can use multiple different sets of virtual bands... As long as the chance of using each one remains constant...

And virtual reels are also the way to have different TRTP settings, WITHOUT changing the reel strips which the players see?

Which is the only reason I can think of, to use them, or as a compensation mechanism.

 

[videoslotheaven]

The plot thickens

 

[trancemonkey]

And virtual reels are also the way to have different TRTP settings, WITHOUT changing the reel strips which the players see?

Which is the only reason I can think of, to use them, or as a compensation mechanism.

Apologies for sounding condescending but that's because you don't fully understand the way we do the maths for these games. Virtual reels don't change the TRTP at all... They help us give you a better game. Nothing more.

And compensation would require each individual spin to not be random and associated to previous spins... Which they are not.

I've tried to explain as best I can without giving to many secrets away that are an important part of the IP we have in the way we do games. You can belive or not that they are random, you can belive they are controlled if you want. I'm here to tell you they are random, not compensated and fair.

How you perceive them to be after that is then up to you

 

[brianmon]

Apologies for sounding condescending but that's because you don't fully understand the way we do the maths for these games. Virtual reels don't change the TRTP at all... And compensation would require each individual spin to not be random and associated to previous spins... Which they are not.

I've tried to explain as best I can without giving to many secrets away that are an important part of the IP we have in the way we do games. You can belive or not that they are random, you can belive they are controlled if you want. I'm here to tell you they are random, not compensated and fair.

How you perceive them to be after that is then up you you

I didn't think you were being condescending in the slightest.

I was just stating that virtual reels are also the way to have different TRTP settings, WITHOUT changing the reel strips which the players see

 

[trancemonkey]

The plot thickens

I think it's times like this where I realise too much information might be a bad thing as people are just waiting to jump on to anything in the hope it furthers their already held beliefs....

 

[aceking123]

i would think although you lot might think im crazy ! that the server is key here & not what the providers/makers of these slots do , in fact i shall go out on a limb & say that the current games & old games have & behave like a system which self regulates itself , weve only been told about the recent data sent to the server & what comes back , before all casinos would state just your player ID , now ive known for years that this has never been the case.

If like stated they just make money of whales & high rollers sadly you would not see a casino here today , because there just isn't enough to justify it.

Those servers record every single penny & clearly can adapt to winning & losing i doubt any machines running via these casinos ( server bound ) is running at a loss.

i generally think that the servers do the maths & can & do whatever is required to get within the rtp% & if the machines being taking far to much chucks out the spikes to bring the rtp% back to within a level & same as a slot which is paying to much adjustments being made again by servers. going within the parameters of rtp% & provider , to show this as 100% random , but only random within 94% of its payout.

Maybe Trance can shed some light on this but i doubt it.

 

[trancemonkey]

i would think although you lot might think im crazy ! that the server is key here & not what the providers/makers of these slots do , in fact i shall go out on a limb & say that the current games & old games have & behave like a system which self regulates itself , weve only been told about the recent data sent to the server & what comes back , before all casinos would state just your player ID , now ive known for years that this has never been the case.

If like stated they just make money of whales & high rollers sadly you would not see a casino here today , because there just isn't enough to justify it.

Those servers record every single penny & clearly can adapt to winning & losing i doubt any machines running via these casinos ( server bound ) is running at a loss.

i generally think that the servers do the maths & can & do whatever is required to get within the rtp% & if the machines being taking far to much chucks out the spikes to bring the rtp% back to within a level & same as a slot which is paying to much adjustments being made again by servers. going within the parameters of rtp% & provider , to show this as 100% random , but only random within 94% of its payout.

Maybe Trance can shed some light on this but i doubt it.

I've shed light on it in many posts... What you're saying is compensation. We don't do it. It's illegal, way too complex on a concurrent user system and just pointless. Random games balance out fine just by themselves.

Casinos can choose to accept the volatility of a game or not... If not then they just don't take the game...

There really is a lot of distrust in this forum... I'm surprised most of you continue to play

 

[trancemonkey]

I didn't think you were being condescending in the slightest.

I was just stating that virtual reels are also the way to have different TRTP settings, WITHOUT changing the reel strips which the players see

Play a game with super stacks on it (Neon Staxx for example). That changes the stacks on every spin doesnt it? You don't see the same reels on every spin. Still random and still perfectly legal and fair....

 

[interlog]

Where is any progress that the player made on a slot stored? Say Immortal Romance or Playboy where the game stores the bonus progress as well as progress in the paytable?

And why is that when the Immortal Romance went from flash to html5, that progress could not be transferred? It surely wouldn't be that difficult?

 

[brianmon]

Play a game with super stacks on it (Neon Staxx for example). That changes the stacks on every spin doesnt it? You don't see the same reels on every spin. Still random and still perfectly legal and fair....

Yeah, that's pretty obvious, and fair enough. That's how the game works.

But you spoke about the changing of reel strips in the base game of 'Immortal Romance' being the reason for certain anomalies, witnessed by harry, jono and myself.

 

[aceking123]

I've shed light on it in many posts... What you're saying is compensation. We don't do it. It's illegal, way too complex on a concurrent user system and just pointless. Random games balance out fine just by themselves.

Casinos can choose to accept the volatility of a game or not... If not then they just don't take the game...

There really is a lot of distrust in this forum... I'm surprised most of you continue to play

Distrust comes with years of experience whilst playing slots & i have those years we play because we like to gamble & enjoy the thrills conspiracy theory & the highs & lows

Also if it wasn't such a Dark area then nobody would be asking you a maker of slots these questions )

Not saying there compensated, im suggesting that a artificial intelligent is running the servers & can & does keep ALL games within parameters of coding & how it was produced to function within the TRTP% , thats not unrealistic in this world nowadays. also why do these games spike hot & cold , clearly there is a reason for it. & this could be the way>>?

The servers already know far to much .ip. player id ,bets , pretty much all the info regarding to anyone that plays online , like you said its purely for accounting , its not to say its used for accounting.

Dont take this the wrong way i do believe that a lot of your answers are good & i do think your telling a truthful fact , but even you cannot rule out that some things are still open for abuse online.

 

[Jono777]

There really is a lot of distrust in this forum... I'm surprised most of you continue to play[/B]

Unfortunately its in a gambler's nature to be cynical, regardless of the facts laid out before them.

Guilty as charged of this myself!

I don't think there will ever be a "Total Solution" to ease players peace of mind - More so when they witness these "Doubt Instigators" time and time again.

I'll start something else off now or at least resurface it - The "New" DoA does NOT use the same program/code/model/whatever as the old one - No way Hozay, never in a million years!

On a side note, see the sweet stunt Guts pulled this week with their Thursday Triple Promo lol, I'd be embarrassed to put that up on my website.

 

[trancemonkey]

Yeah, that's pretty obvious, and fair enough. That's how the game works.

But you spoke about the changing of reel strips in the base game of 'Immortal Romance' being the reason for certain anomalies, witnessed by harry, jono and myself.

Yeah so same type of thing as Neon Staxx... They may have a set of reel bands with more wilds, one with less, one for the Wild feature, etc. At the start of a spin it picks which one to use. The chance of picking each band is static... Doesn't change. The mixture of these bands (the chance of picking each one) is what gives the overall game experience and Rtp. There's nothing weird about it in terms of underhandedness

 

[brianmon]

Yeah so same type of thing as Neon Staxx... They may have a set of reel bands with more wilds, one with less, one for the Wild feature, etc. At the start of a spin it picks which one to use. The chance of picking each band is static... Doesn't change. The mixture of these bands (the chance of picking each one) is what gives the overall game experience and Rtp. There's nothing weird about it in terms of underhandedness

Obviously there are different reels for the 'Wild Desire' feature, and for each of the 4 bonus features.

So you're saying there are different virtual reel bands used in the base game, from which a win or loss is produced from the random number(s) from the RNG.
And then the positions of the (seemingly) fixed display reels are adjusted to reflect the value of that win ???

Rather than just 5 random numbers giving 5 stop positions on a reel, of whatever length, with fixed symbol positions.
Which should in theory be capable of producing the required TRTP just from the frequency and positions of each symbol.
Obviously disregarding any special features. But as a bog-standard base game.

 

[Steviedoo]

What I'm trying to comprehend whilst reading all these questions about randomness is what as a player do you expect?

if it's so rigged and not so random....and you know the odds are stacked against you more so than what they are telling us. Why play? And not only do you play just any old slot...you play the ones that you think are rigged....the very ones you all are griping about, the one that you are sure beyondd a shadow of a doubt has been rigged against you..

.and..why do we still play? Cuz at some level all of us trust in the process...of spinning....and that the providers want/need to make some money while providing entertainment and the promise of winning a lot or a bit of money....

These are My two cents ...i love playing the slots...that's it. Have to trust that WMS, igt, and all of those providers we see at land casinos (at very least )have some sort of regulation that keeps them honest....and if they are not....it would be the biggest scandal and would cause Las Vegas to close its doors ..

and if what you all say is true...how could they keep all what you say secret...we live in a different world then when slots were invented and someone somewhere that has worked in the industry would have said something.... oh wait they have sent trancemonkey to get us off their trail....lol...

As a math major I would be interested to see the pars or the maths behind the lobster slot.....someone posted that they would post it or send it as a pm as a link...

 

[Jono777]

Don't ever come anywhere with proof of underhandedness - I think we'd disappear from the face of the planet very quickly

Maybe too many movies...........

 

[Steviedoo]

Don't ever come anywhere with proof of underhandedness - I think we'd disappear from the face of the planet very quickly

Maybe too many movies...........

Lol...

 

[trancemonkey]

Obviously there are different reels for the 'Wild Desire' feature, and for each of the 4 bonus features.

So you're saying there are different virtual reel bands used in the base game, from which a win or loss is produced from the random number(s) from the RNG.
And then the positions of the (seemingly) fixed display reels are adjusted to reflect the value of that win ???

Rather than just 5 random numbers giving 5 stop positions on a reel, of whatever length, with fixed symbol positions.
Which should in theory be capable of producing the required TRTP just from the frequency and positions of each symbol.
Obviously disregarding any special features. But as a bog-standard base game.

Of course we can do it with one set of reels... But they would have to be astronomically long for some games and this just isn't feasible.

And no I've never mentioned a win or loss being produced and then displayed using whatever reels. The reel bands it has chosen are the ones you see... Hence in IR you see completely different reels when the WD feature occurs...

The stop positions of those reel bands are randomly determined on that spin just like the reel bands to use are determined on that spin. There is no reference to previous or future spins or RTP or the weather or anything else...

 

[trancemonkey]

oh wait they have sent trancemonkey to get us off their trail....lol...

SHIT... Rumbled....

 

[trancemonkey]

Distrust comes with years of experience whilst playing slots & i have those years we play because we like to gamble & enjoy the thrills conspiracy theory & the highs & lows

Also if it wasn't such a Dark area then nobody would be asking you a maker of slots these questions )

Not saying there compensated, im suggesting that a artificial intelligent is running the servers & can & does keep ALL games within parameters of coding & how it was produced to function within the TRTP% , thats not unrealistic in this world nowadays. also why do these games spike hot & cold , clearly there is a reason for it. & this could be the way>>?

The servers already know far to much .ip. player id ,bets , pretty much all the info regarding to anyone that plays online , like you said its purely for accounting , its not to say its used for accounting.

Dont take this the wrong way i do believe that a lot of your answers are good & i do think your telling a truthful fact , but even you cannot rule out that some things are still open for abuse online.

There no artificial intelligence operating... There doesn't need to be. Why would we... If that were done and it ever came to light through, say one disgruntled employee, it could bring the entire industry down over night.

To you last point.. Of course someone MAY abuse it. It's not outside the realms of possibilities but I'm telling you from someone on the inside that does this day in day out this doesn't happen... No compensation. No control. No AI. No rigged RTPs at higher bets.

 

[trancemonkey]

Guys (and maybe girls)... We've been around in circles for God knows how many pages talking about rigged or not rigged.

I didn't start this thread to lie. I didn't start this thread to peddle untruths just to try and get you to believe me.

I wanted to do this to give you all an insight from someone on the inside who was willing to be as open as I can be (without getting sacked or jeopardising my career) and I'll continue to do that if I can.

However this cycle of disbelieve and distrust is becoming tiring now as I'm giving the same answers all the time and being asked the same questions.

I'm telling you that to the best of my knowledge games are not rigged or compensated or controlled or doing some weird complicated stuff on the server. It's really not worth are time or effort to do it... The games mathematically give the casino an edge... It's ALREADY "rigged" in our favour because of the RTP which you are all well aware of.. So why on earth would we rig it further and risk everything.

Pointless.

So if possible can we kill the rigged line of debate as I really can't add anything else to it now that I haven't said already...

Cheers

T.M

 

[Tirilej]

The thread will always stay here so a huge thank you for all your effort

Keep in mind that we who either just believe you or already know that what you're saying is true, do read this thread, and are happy that you had the guts to try. We simply don't post because we don't have much to say

:notworthy:notworthy

 

[goatwack]

Guys (and maybe girls)... We've been around in circles for God knows how many pages talking about rigged or not rigged.

I didn't start this thread to lie. I didn't start this thread to peddle untruths just to try and get you to believe me.

I wanted to do this to give you all an insight from someone on the inside who was willing to be as open as I can be (without getting sacked or jeopardising my career) and I'll continue to do that if I can.

However this cycle of disbelieve and distrust is becoming tiring now as I'm giving the same answers all the time and being asked the same questions.

I'm telling you that to the best of my knowledge games are not rigged or compensated or controlled or doing some weird complicated stuff on the server. It's really not worth are time or effort to do it... The games mathematically give the casino an edge... It's ALREADY "rigged" in our favour because of the RTP which you are all well aware of.. So why on earth would we rig it further and risk everything.

Pointless.

So if possible can we kill the rigged line of debate as I really can't add anything else to it now that I haven't said already...

Cheers

T.M

This thread will keep on going based on the subject matter. Ultimately it all comes down to the player's current luck on the games - if winning I'll clap and say "Bravo, fair game" and when losing badly I'll scream blue murder.

Slots are cyclical and everyone's fortunes turn around at some stage, it's just boils down to how we come to terms with accepting the games' brutal streaks. I've come pretty close to calling slots rigged but never outright, as not long after I'll hit something good and all's well in the world again

It's great to have someone on here give their own technical views on how the games run, something this community has been crying out for for years.

Despite this, no amount of technical breakdown and analysis will ever appease everyone as this is an emotion- and impulse-based hobby, where throwing out facts and reason falls on deaf ears. But to those that are interested in what you have to say, I think having you around is definitely something we can't afford to lose

 

[trancemonkey]

The thread will always stay here so a huge thank you for all your effort

Keep in mind that we who either just believe you or already know that what you're saying is true, do read this thread, and are happy that you had the guts to try. We simply don't post because we don't have much to say

:notworthy:notworthy

This thread will keep on going based on the subject matter. Ultimately it all comes down to the player's current luck on the games - if winning I'll clap and say "Bravo, fair game" and when losing badly I'll scream blue murder.

Slots are cyclical and everyone's fortunes turn around at some stage, it's just boils down to how we come to terms with accepting the games' brutal streaks. I've come pretty close to calling slots rigged but never outright, as not long after I'll hit something good and all's well in the world again

It's great to have someone on here give their own technical views on how the games run, something this community has been crying out for for years.

Despite this, no amount of technical breakdown and analysis will ever appease everyone as this is an emotion- and impulse-based hobby, where throwing out facts and reason falls on deaf ears. But to those that are interested in what you have to say, I think having you around is definitely something we can't afford to lose

And I'm more than happy to help where and however I can Thank you!

 

[brianmon]

Of course we can do it with one set of reels... But they would have to be astronomically long for some games and this just isn't feasible.

And no I've never mentioned a win or loss being produced and then displayed using whatever reels. The reel bands it has chosen are the ones you see... Hence in IR you see completely different reels when the WD feature occurs...

The stop positions of those reel bands are randomly determined on that spin just like the reel bands to use are determined on that spin. There is no reference to previous or future spins or RTP or the weather or anything else...

Astronomically long like the reel bands for Avalon II, posted earlier in the thread? Where the chances of a screen full of wilds was calculated in the billions to one range, from those reel bands alone. When the chance of it happening is so high, why would you need other sets of reel bands?

The work was done by a now absent CM member kktmd, who played using the viper client, and intercepted the data being sent to the client, which wasn't/isn't encrypted.
The only changes in reel bands he reported at the time, from millions of spins, was that after the penultimate bonus round, one scatter on one of the reels was changed to another symbol, obviously to make it harder to get the final bonus round.
But other than that, the symbols were fixed to the same positions.

Had there been different reel bands used (in the base game only), he'd have recorded a lot of different symbols in different positions

 

[Jono777]

CM forum must have slipped onto a different server and reduced RTP as posts are showing as originally quoted by me that were not

 

[trancemonkey]

Astronomically long like the reel bands for Avalon II, posted earlier in the thread? Where the chances of a screen full of wilds was calculated in the billions to one range, from those reel bands alone. When the chance of it happening is so high, why would you need other sets of reel bands?

The work was done by a now absent CM member kktmd, who played using the viper client, and intercepted the data being sent to the client, which wasn't/isn't encrypted.
The only changes in reel bands he reported at the time, from millions of spins, was that after the penultimate bonus round, one scatter on one of the reels was changed to another symbol, obviously to make it harder to get the final bonus round.
But other than that, the symbols were fixed to the same positions.

Had there been different reel bands used (in the base game only), he'd have recorded a lot of different symbols in different positions

Avalon reel bands aren't long... They're actually quite short...

 

[brianmon]

Guys (and maybe girls)... We've been around in circles for God knows how many pages talking about rigged or not rigged.

I didn't start this thread to lie. I didn't start this thread to peddle untruths just to try and get you to believe me.

I wanted to do this to give you all an insight from someone on the inside who was willing to be as open as I can be (without getting sacked or jeopardising my career) and I'll continue to do that if I can.

However this cycle of disbelieve and distrust is becoming tiring now as I'm giving the same answers all the time and being asked the same questions.

I'm telling you that to the best of my knowledge games are not rigged or compensated or controlled or doing some weird complicated stuff on the server. It's really not worth are time or effort to do it... The games mathematically give the casino an edge... It's ALREADY "rigged" in our favour because of the RTP which you are all well aware of.. So why on earth would we rig it further and risk everything.

Pointless.

So if possible can we kill the rigged line of debate as I really can't add anything else to it now that I haven't said already...

Cheers

T.M

I'm more interested in how it all works, rather than whether there is anything truly underhand going on.

But to change the subject....

How much analysis of real play is done by developers? As in after a game has been launched.

Would they look at the previous play of players leaving a game (barring the zero balance players, who would leave for the obvious reason), to try to understand why they left the game?

Was it a 'near miss', a zero paying bonus round, a long cold streak, a psychological 'trick' which never worked.

 

[brianmon]

Avalon reel bands aren't long... They're actually quite short...

That's Avalon II, i'm sure Avalon reel bands are pretty short in comparison

 

[Jd666]

I am going to give Jd £1000 just because I like him

Awww, thanks Jon

 

[lockinlove]

I've seen the same thing happen many many time, although I've never documented it.

Also something I noticed on, mainly, IR. If you get say Sarah on just reels 1, 2, 4 & 5, there is almost always a scatter in the missing position, reel 3.
It's the same if the missing Sarah is on reel 1 or 2, It's almost always filled with a scatter. and then as you say the Sarah lands on the next spin in the missing position

Without question this happens.

Also, I ve been a high stakes player and small stakes and not single person in the world will change my mind that the slots play differently high stakes vs lower stakes. I know they do.

 

[Jono777]

Awww, thanks Jon

Welcome Buddy


£1 a week ok

 

[trancemonkey]

CM forum must have slipped onto a different server and reduced RTP as posts are showing as originally quoted by me that were not

That's Avalon II, i'm sure Avalon reel bands are pretty short in comparison

Well those reel bands you showed... I've done games with reels over 500 symbols long and more.

 

[trancemonkey]

Absolutely analytical data is important... The problem is that we don't really get that. When I was in social gaming we absolutely got that data and we changed the app/games based on it. Of course we had a lot more freedom in social as there are no rules to follow.

In real money it's much harder to get... You might be able to scrape data about how many games people play on average of your game, the average stake, but its harder than you might think. The casinos have better data as they could follow a player around their site and build up a pretty good picture of the games the like, when they play, for how long... And then target marketing at them around this data...

I love going to Vegas or somewhere my games are and watching people play them... That can tell you a lot more about what is good and bad

 

[brianmon]

Well those reel bands you showed... I've done games with reels over 500 symbols long and more.

So the odds of getting those 5 stacked wilds to line up exactly, being in the billions to one isn't enough?

 

[trancemonkey]

So the odds of getting those 5 stacked wilds to line up exactly, being in the billions to one isn't enough?

View attachment 76394

You're assuming ever position is evenly weighted.... (and those reel bands are correct)

Long reel bands are not about making things harder... It's about giving us as designers more control over the maths and the game so we distribute the wins in the way we want to.

 

[interlog]

Where is any progress that the player made on a slot stored? Say Immortal Romance or Playboy where the game stores the bonus progress as well as progress in the paytable?

And why is that when the Immortal Romance went from flash to html5, that progress could not be transferred? It surely wouldn't be that difficult?

I know that this topic is moving rather fast, so you may have skipped the above.

 

[Jono777]

I know that this topic is moving rather fast, so you may have skipped the above.

Is IR yet to be moved to HTML5 or has it been done already please?

If its the latter they've done a bloody marvelous job as I've not noticed any difference or lost any achievements (touch wood)

 

[trancemonkey]

I know that this topic is moving rather fast, so you may have skipped the above.

My understanding is that achievements are held on the server and are logged to your played id on that specific casino... Hence if you move casinos your achievements don't move with you.

 

[interlog]

Is IR yet to be moved to HTML5 or has it been done already please?

If its the latter they've done a bloody marvelous job as I've not noticed any difference or lost any achievements (touch wood)

Not quite. At Videoslots - as an example - they have both. Flash on a computer and HTML5 on a mobile device. When you start the HMTL5 game you start from scratch.