Ask me anything (about slots)!

[lockinlove]

Hey Interlog

Any game with a bonus frequency of > 1 in 100 could go 1000 games without a bonus... i'm not sure what the bonus frequency is on these BTG games, but i imagine it's infrequent and highly volatile - they would have to be in order to pay the kind of wins that these games can deliver...

I have to take umbrage with your last point though - no one makes players gamble more than they meant to, that's their own personal choice. We don't want or need problem gamblers - we want people to play with funds they are comfortable with losing (if indeed they DO lose) and enjoy their time gambling. BTG games aren't bordering on irresponsible. If you decide to gamble irresponsibly then that's your choice.

Whether it's a good game or not, that's a different discussion...

Gambling disorder, compulsive gambling or pathological disorders are all known as impulse control disorders. So in reality if you are a compulsive gambler you no longer have a choice. It has become a sickness. It's especially found in people who suffer from ADHD, anxiety, bi polar and many other sicknesses. So that is not a personal choice.

You may not want or need them but it happens regardless and you may be speaking on a personal level but I dont believe you would represent all software providers. Many of their intentions are to create games that become addicting.

With that being said, BTG production of the game was to make something that people enjoy. That's the aim of all software providers, isnt it? I don't think they sat there and thought will this cause gambling addictions. They wanted to create a game that is successful.

Whether their intentions were meant that way or not, that game is an instant hit with casino's and players. It's a game that keeps you even and playing a very long time in hopes of obtaining that large win. It is also a game that is going to be very dangerous to problem gamblers as the entire slot is appealing to all sorts of gamers and is a perfect example of "that big hit is going to come soon I can feel it". You then have all the gems, diamonds, stacked symbols, extra reels, fast upbeat music, special sound effects for decent little hits. It's a gamers dream and a problem gamblers nightmare.

It's also a slot where people will make larger bets because the base game returns are incredibly high which either ends in slow losses or chasing your losses and before you know it, you just blew alot of money.

 

[Playford7]

Hey Interlog

Any game with a bonus frequency of > 1 in 100 could go 1000 games without a bonus... i'm not sure what the bonus frequency is on these BTG games, but i imagine it's infrequent and highly volatile - they would have to be in order to pay the kind of wins that these games can deliver...

I have to take umbrage with your last point though - no one makes players gamble more than they meant to, that's their own personal choice. We don't want or need problem gamblers - we want people to play with funds they are comfortable with losing (if indeed they DO lose) and enjoy their time gambling. BTG games aren't bordering on irresponsible. If you decide to gamble irresponsibly then that's your choice.

Whether it's a good game or not, that's a different discussion...

Good reply. There's really no need for BTG or anyone else for that matter having to prey on the vulnerable gambler, I'm also rather sure that's never or is there intention.
It's just the fact that bonanza is that terribly HV and volatile, that it may seem that way when your rowing money through sometimes +1000 spins for a bonus, can happen with rhino, it happened to me on monte only days ago.

 

[trancemonkey]

Answers inline:

Gambling disorder, compulsive gambling or pathological disorders are all known as impulse control disorders. So in reality if you are a compulsive gambler you no longer have a choice. It has become a sickness. It's especially found in people who suffer from ADHD, anxiety, bi polar and many other sicknesses. So that is not a personal choice.

You may not want or need them but it happens regardless and you may be speaking on a personal level but I dont believe you would represent all software providers. Many of their intentions are to create games that become addicting.

You could say the same about drinks, food, etc.. Why do companies try and make nice food - so you'll keep eating it. They don't WANT you to get fat and die - they don't want you to have an eating disorder. They want you to enjoy their food, buy it whenever you can, and be a return customer. You can't say that Fosters are responsible for alcoholics because they make beer people want to drink. The same is true for gambling - of course we want people to enjoy the games. We want them to keep coming back for more - that's the way the business works. We need repeat customers - but we don't want them losing their house or family over it because then they AREN'T repeat customers...

With that being said, BTG production of the game was to make something that people enjoy. That's the aim of all software providers, isnt it? I don't think they sat there and thought will this cause gambling addictions. They wanted to create a game that is successful.

Whether their intentions were meant that way or not, that game is an instant hit with casino's and players. It's a game that keeps you even and playing a very long time in hopes of obtaining that large win. It is also a game that is going to be very dangerous to problem gamblers as the entire slot is appealing to all sorts of gamers and is a perfect example of "that big hit is going to come soon I can feel it". You then have all the gems, diamonds, stacked symbols, extra reels, fast upbeat music, special sound effects for decent little hits. It's a gamers dream and a problem gamblers nightmare.

The industry does a lot (arguably not enough) to help problem gamblers. There is a myriad of support if they choose to want it. The biggest thing i could see is a self-exclusion system that covers ALL online casinos. For example, allow someone to blacklist themselves from being able to register at a casino. This would help problem gamblers who have so much choice of online casinos, it almost doesn't matter if you self-exclude - you can always find another one.

It's also a slot where people will make larger bets because the base game returns are incredibly high which either ends in slow losses or chasing your losses and before you know it, you just blew alot of money.

In conclusion - you can't blame BMW because someone bought their car, drove too fast, and killed someone.
You can't blame Coca Cola because someone drank 30 cans a day, got fat and died
You can't blame Titleist because someone got hit by a golf ball struck by an imcompetent golfer
This belief that responsibility is NOT in the hands of the person making the decision is ridiculous and synonymous with the society we live in now. It's never your fault - it's always someone else.

I'm off my high horse now

 

[lockinlove]

Good reply. There's really no need for BTG or anyone else for that matter having to prey on the vulnerable gambler, I'm also rather sure that's never or is there intention.
It's just the fact that bonanza is that terribly HV and volatile, that it may seem that way when your rowing money through sometimes +1000 spins for a bonus, can happen with rhino, it happened to me on monte only days ago.

Lets take brick and mortar casinos for example. Have you ever seen a clock? How often do you see windows in a casino? Have you noticed how most casinos go with the color red and have upbeat music? American casino's provide free alcohol to gamblers.

All of this is the very essence of preying on the vulnerable.

There is also a huge difference between Rhino and Bonanza. The only similarity is it's HV with huge potential. Bonanza has everything the gamer could dream of. Amazing graphics, one of the most enticing bonus rounds ever offered.

This belief that responsibility is NOT in the hands of the person making the decision is ridiculous and synonymous with the society we live in now. It's never your fault - it's always someone else.

Just because one person can say I am strong enough to say no doesn't mean the next person with a sickness can.

 

[lockinlove]

The industry does a lot (arguably not enough) to help problem gamblers. There is a myriad of support if they choose to want it. The biggest thing i could see is a self-exclusion system that covers ALL online casinos. For example, allow someone to blacklist themselves from being able to register at a casino. This would help problem gamblers who have so much choice of online casinos, it almost doesn't matter if you self-exclude - you can always find another one.

Lets use two casinos for examples.

Video slots. They are the perfect example of a casino that offers more than enough options to recreational gamblers, possible problem gamblers etc. They offer deposit restrictions, cool off periods and self exclusions.

Fortune Lounge. They are the perfect example of how not to to execute guidelines on responsible gambling. You cannot find a self exclusion or cool off period anywhere on their site. Their policy (written in their terms) is to contact support and discuss your options with them. I have done this myself when I have wanted to take a 30 day break. They wont allow it. Instead they offer to lock your account and that's all but 20 minutes later you can request it to be re-opened and they will. So what is the point of this? It's them trying to make themselves looks responsible. Aside from that your only option is to state you have a gambling problem which terminates your account across their brand.

Is the 2nd example doing enough to thwart problem gamblers? Absolutely not.



Now with that being said, I do believe that most of the accredited casino's offered here offer more than enough responsible gaming but as you say self exclusion is somewhat meaningless in the end. There are numerous casino's you can find at the snap of a finger.

What I would like to see done is each licensee/gaming commission offer a complete self exclusion of all their brands as you have suggested. For example, all casino's licensed by the Kahnawake or UKGC and others, have an option on their site to blacklist themselves from all casino's listed under them.

I think that would be a step in the right direction

Now you will have to excuse me, I need to go play some bonanza.

 

[trancemonkey]

Lets use two casinos for examples.

Video slots. They are the perfect example of a casino that offers more than enough options to recreational gamblers, possible problem gamblers etc. They offer deposit restrictions, cool off periods and self exclusions.

Fortune Lounge. They are the perfect example of how not to to execute guidelines on responsible gambling. You cannot find a self exclusion or cool off period anywhere on their site. Their policy (written in their terms) is to contact support and discuss your options with them. I have done this myself when I have wanted to take a 30 day break. They wont allow it. Instead they offer to lock your account and that's all but 20 minutes later you can request it to be re-opened and they will. So what is the point of this? It's them trying to make themselves looks responsible. Aside from that your only option is to state you have a gambling problem which terminates your account across their brand.

Is the 2nd example doing enough to thwart problem gamblers? Absolutely not.



Now with that being said, I do believe that most of the accredited casino's offered here offer more than enough responsible gaming but as you say self exclusion is somewhat meaningless in the end. There are numerous casino's you can find at the snap of a finger.

What I would like to see done is each licensee/gaming commission offer a complete self exclusion of all their brands as you have suggested. For example, all casino's licensed by the Kahnawake or UKGC commissions and others have an option on their site to blacklist themselves from all casino's listed under them.

I think that would be a step in the right direction

Now you will have to excuse me, I need to go play some bonanza.

Yeah - the whole self-exclusion idea is something i mentioned a few posts ago, and would absolutely be the right thing to do...
And yes of course there are some really bad casinos out there who don't care about responsible gaming - but don't tar us all with the same brush
And i stand by what i say - it is not a game provider (slots companies) fault if you gamble too much...

 

[Playford7]

Responsible gambling is solely down to the individual. At the end of the day nobody forces you to click the mouse nor hand over banking details and deposit.
Just because BTG have made a really interesting slot that's well designed, bright and colourful and has everyone talking about it doesn't mean that it's done to incite more hardcore gambling that's just madness.
When a slot comes out that's plain,dull and boring everyone jumps straight on it to slate it. Can't have the best of both worlds,grass is always greener syndrome.
That said, the self exclusion policy within the casinos themselves is frankly terrible,and a hell of a lot use the SE to there own gain. A slot provider makes a slot to keep you playing and entertained,more though to keep you coming back for more and talking about there slot with bonanza that's totally (job done!) for BGT that's how they earn there pennies. Can't really blame them for that IMO

 

[Captain Rizk]

What I would like to see done is each licensee/gaming commission offer a complete self exclusion of all their brands as you have suggested. For example, all casino's licensed by the Kahnawake or UKGC and others, have an option on their site to blacklist themselves from all casino's listed under them.

I think that would be a step in the right direction

The UKGC did start down this route a couple of years ago and did perform consultation with the industry however, as far as I am aware, they are yet to get anywhere near selecting a provider/supplier for this system.

Old / Expired Link

Old / Expired Link

 

[Jono777]

Lets take brick and mortar casinos for example. Have you ever seen a clock? How often do you see windows in a casino? Have you noticed how most casinos go with the color red and have upbeat music? American casino's provide free alcohol to gamblers.

All of this is the very essence of preying on the vulnerable.

Parts of our business strategy which were discussed in many a meeting, few others off the top of my head...

No staff were allowed to wear watches, didn't want punters catching a glimpse.

Last numbers out display boards on every roulette table, font would increase if say there were a long run of red numbers high/low/odd/even/black etc.

Free meals daily, comp beers, theme nights (Chinese/Asian buffets)

"Free" trips to the races/dogs (Coach always picked up n dropped off at casino of course )

Cash Matches for fruit machines

Comp ciggies and the odd free 'Pony Chip' for heavy losers

Excellent from a business point of view. terrible from an ethical point of view but as has been said no one forced the punters through the door!

Swings and roundabouts!!

 

[trancemonkey]

That said, the self exclusion policy within the casinos themselves is frankly terrible,and a hell of a lot use the SE to there own gain. A slot provider makes a slot to keep you playing and entertained,more though to keep you coming back for more and talking about there slot with bonanza that's totally (job done!) for BGT that's how they earn there pennies. Can't really blame them for that IMO

I actually tried to self exclude from a casino a long time ago - i can't remember what it was, and they told me (no word of a lie): "If you keep playing, a big win will be just around the corner. I can even put a bonus on your account for you if you want to try and win back your losses."

 

[Playford7]

I actually tried to self exclude from a casino a long time ago - i can't remember what it was, and they told me (no word of a lie): "If you keep playing, a big win will be just around the corner. I can even put a bonus on your account for you if you want to try and win back your losses."

Wouldn't suprise me one bit. Not to say all are this immoral by any stretch, but certainly a fair few.
As stated previously, its zip to do with a slot provider, its casino and player who should deal with responsible gambling, the slot provider merely provides a entertainment experience, how people interprete that is down to them.

 

[lockinlove]

I actually tried to self exclude from a casino a long time ago - i can't remember what it was, and they told me (no word of a lie): "If you keep playing, a big win will be just around the corner. I can even put a bonus on your account for you if you want to try and win back your losses."

lol I had that happen with an RTG casino. I think it was grande vegas.

 

[Steviedoo]

Gambling disorder, compulsive gambling or pathological disorders are all known as impulse control disorders. So in reality if you are a compulsive gambler you no longer have a choice. It has become a sickness. It's especially found in people who suffer from ADHD, anxiety, bi polar and many other sicknesses. So that is not a personal choice.

You may not want or need them but it happens regardless and you may be speaking on a personal level but I dont believe you would represent all software providers. Many of their intentions are to create games that become addicting.

With that being said, BTG production of the game was to make something that people enjoy. That's the aim of all software providers, isnt it? I don't think they sat there and thought will this cause gambling addictions. They wanted to create a game that is successful.

Whether their intentions were meant that way or not, that game is an instant hit with casino's and players. It's a game that keeps you even and playing a very long time in hopes of obtaining that large win. It is also a game that is going to be very dangerous to problem gamblers as the entire slot is appealing to all sorts of gamers and is a perfect example of "that big hit is going to come soon I can feel it". You then have all the gems, diamonds, stacked symbols, extra reels, fast upbeat music, special sound effects for decent little hits. It's a gamers dream and a problem gamblers nightmare.

It's also a slot where people will make larger bets because the base game returns are incredibly high which either ends in slow losses or chasing your losses and before you know it, you just blew alot of money.

Is it the gun manufacturers fault when someone gets killed by a gun they've made? Not the place for this discussion....

but is it the manufacturers of whiskys fault for making that bottle so shiny and attractive? I'm not a drinker but I love to go into the liquor store....everything is so shiny and pretty....

Or smoking.....we have ugly packaging here in Quebec....charcoaled lungs on packeaging.....does it work? Don't think so.

People who are prone to addiction will be addicted no matter the game , the packaging etc....

 

[lockinlove]

Parts of our business strategy which were discussed in many a meeting, few others off the top of my head...

No staff were allowed to wear watches, didn't want punters catching a glimpse.

Last numbers out display boards on every roulette table, font would increase if say there were a long run of red numbers high/low/odd/even/black etc.

Free meals daily, comp beers, theme nights (Chinese/Asian buffets)

"Free" trips to the races/dogs (Coach always picked up n dropped off at casino of course )

Cash Matches for fruit machines

Comp ciggies and the odd free 'Pony Chip' for heavy losers

Excellent from a business point of view. terrible from an ethical point of view but as has been said no one forced the punters through the door!

Swings and roundabouts!!

Sounds like a place I want to put my bunk bed at!

Is it the gun manufacturers fault when someone gets killed by a gun they've made? Not the place for this discussion....

but is it the manufacturers of whiskys fault for making that bottle so shiny and attractive? I'm not a drinker but I love to go into the liquor store....everything is so shiny and pretty....

Or smoking.....we have ugly packaging here in Quebec....charcoaled lungs on packeaging.....does it work? Don't think so.

People who are prone to addiction will be addicted no matter the game , the packaging etc....

Was this meant for me?

because I agree with it all.

 

[Patriot66]

This is a wonderful thread.

Lovely to hear from someone who actually knows what they are talking about, is articulate and tells it exactly like it is.

Been on here approaching 5 years and this is, by far, the most interesting thread I've come across.

 

[interlog]

Hey Interlog

Any game with a bonus frequency of > 1 in 100 could go 1000 games without a bonus... i'm not sure what the bonus frequency is on these BTG games, but i imagine it's infrequent and highly volatile - they would have to be in order to pay the kind of wins that these games can deliver...

I have to take umbrage with your last point though - no one makes players gamble more than they meant to, that's their own personal choice. We don't want or need problem gamblers - we want people to play with funds they are comfortable with losing (if indeed they DO lose) and enjoy their time gambling. BTG games aren't bordering on irresponsible. If you decide to gamble irresponsibly then that's your choice.

Whether it's a good game or not, that's a different discussion...

I disagree with you. As already mentioned by lockinlove, this game is on another level. I have on many occasions compared it to Dead or Alive. At least with Dead or Alive you get the bonus round frequently. You play this type of game purely for the bonus round because that is where the money sits.

To have to wait 1,000s of spins for it for then to be bitterly disappointed because it spits out a less than 50x win is just wrong. With the likes of Dead or Alive you don't mind it that much because you know the next bonus round will be round the corner not too long.

I too compared this game with the Novomatic games that too can go a very long time without a bonus. But at least, when it eventually triggers, it pays relatively well.

At the end of the day, in my opinion, when you design games that have bonus features, either make them drop in frequently or if you don't, then at least reward the player decently when it eventually drops in.

 

[Jd666]

Will there ever be another decent new slot released?

 

[trancemonkey]

At the end of the day, in my opinion, when you design games that have bonus features, either make them drop in frequently or if you don't, then at least reward the player decently when it eventually drops in.

And you opinion is valid... but if you don't like BTG slots, just don't play them. And you're right, whenever I've done a game with a low bonus frequency (I.e 1 in 500 or higher) them I tend to put at least 12 to 15% of the RTP in the bonus.. but of course that can and does change based on the game... there's no "rule" as such, but I do agree with you - the less frequent the bonus, the higher the average pay should be....

However, the average pay of the BTG bonuses may well be 100x, but if it's a volatile bonus then of course you could get nothing or 200x...

 

[trancemonkey]

Will there ever be another decent new slot released?

That very much depends what you mean by decent... which is a personal choice...

 

[Simmo!]

At the end of the day, in my opinion, when you design games that have bonus features, either make them drop in frequently or if you don't, then at least reward the player decently when it eventually drops in.

If you want games to be truly random, then you can't do the latter. The best you can do is stack the odds in it's favour by allocating more RTP to the feature. The Catch22 is that you do this, there is less RTP for the base game so the game will become too boring and no-one will wait long enough for the feature

 

[trancemonkey]

If you want games to be truly random, then you can't do the latter. The best you can do is stack the odds in it's favour

At some point I'll do a post on random... because a previous poster said slots are not random. They are (well, real money ones are - social casinos are not always random)... but it's not that simple...

 

[interlog]

If you want games to be truly random, then you can't do the latter. The best you can do is stack the odds in it's favour by allocating more RTP to the feature. The Catch22 is that you do this, there is less RTP for the base game so the game will become too boring and no-one will wait long enough for the feature

I think Dead or Alive has it just about right. Decent-ish game play, frequent bonuses and we all know and seen the capabilities of those bonuses. You are not going to be ahead all of the time but you also don't end up causing damage to your computer out of sheer frustration.

Trancemonkey - would you say DOA is the best game designed in terms of game play (discounting graphics here) and if not what is the best one in your opinion

 

[Playford7]

I think Dead or Alive has it just about right. Decent-ish game play, frequent bonuses and we all know and seen the capabilities of those bonuses. You are not going to be ahead all of the time but you also don't end up causing damage to your computer out of sheer frustration.

Trancemonkey - would you say DOA is the best game designed in terms of game play (discounting graphics here) and if not what is the best one in your opinion

That's a fantastic question!.. like it!.

 

[lockinlove]

Are you familiar with the game of thrones slot? If so, how would you say the rtp is distributed in that one? My guess is a good portion in the 2 scatter bonus and base game and not so much in the bonus rounds. Sure the bonus can give you a real big win but they are really far and few between.

Do I have this correct?

 

[fernandohs]

Jackpot age of gods

I win a jackpot game of age of gods. $12747,12, in december . In bet365 casino. THe slot is a progressive jackpot . But i have a question. Who pay this amount? i withdrawal for bet365 in four cashouts.this amount is pay for all casinos if a game play or only bet365?

 

[trancemonkey]

I win a jackpot game of age of gods. $12747,12, in december . In bet365 casino. THe slot is a progressive jackpot . But i have a question. Who pay this amount? i withdrawal for bet365 in four cashouts.this amount is pay for all casinos if a game play or only bet365?

For jackpots spread across multiple sites, the provider pays it (to the site of course, which then pays you)... NetEnt mega fortune would be an example of this.

If the jackpot is local to the casino then the casino pays it directly.

Hope that answers your question.

 

[trancemonkey]

Are you familiar with the game of thrones slot? If so, how would you say the rtp is distributed in that one? My guess is a good portion in the 2 scatter bonus and base game and not so much in the bonus rounds. Sure the bonus can give you a real big win but they are really far and few between.

Do I have this correct?

My guess would be that there is around 10% rtp in the scatter bonus, 20% in the free games and the rest in the base game... but that's a guess

 

[trancemonkey]

I think Dead or Alive has it just about right. Decent-ish game play, frequent bonuses and we all know and seen the capabilities of those bonuses. You are not going to be ahead all of the time but you also don't end up causing damage to your computer out of sheer frustration.

Trancemonkey - would you say DOA is the best game designed in terms of game play (discounting graphics here) and if not what is the best one in your opinion

Ahh the most emotive of questions, and one that is very difficult to answer....

I would imagine DoA is the kind of slot that attracts a specific type of player. This is someone who chases the 3000x wins this game can give - the same kind of playera that play Rhino, Montezuma, Novomatic games, BTG. Would I say it's the best game designed as you say? No...

But then that's a very personal choice... we all like games where we've had that big memorable win, or where we know how to get it and the game teases us enough to make us think we might .. and then sometimes rewards us.

In terms of success from an industry point of view, Book of Ra is one of the most successful games ever (I'm talking cross-platform - both retail and online here). The new Lightning Link series of games from Aristocrat is currently by far the most successful land-based casino game (although you won't see many in Europe at the moment, but they are coming).

Duo Fu Duo Cai (and all its clones - you'll know it as Fortune 88 online) was also immensely successful in retail.

In terms of online only, most people would say that Starburst and Twin Spin have two of the most successful stalwarts of the online world, although NetEnt have struggled to repeat this success, and the reskin of Twin Spin was a relative flop...

Personally I have a number of games I ALWAYS go back to:

Bruce Lee (Money burst version)
Montezuma
Raging Rhino
Dead or Alive
Book of the Dead (which is just Book of Ra)
Twin Spin

Let's not turn this in to thread about what the best game ever is though... that's too emotive and personal to each of us. Good question though

 

[trancemonkey]

The RANDOM question...

2. Why does everyone involved in the industry keep repeating endlessly that slots are random? They are NOT.

Hey Harry - I've come back to your question because it's an important and often misunderstood one.

Firstly please discount social gaming slots, as these are quite often not random... mainly because they don't need to be....

Put simply, slots ARE random. But the easy mistake it to confuse the random selection of an outcome with a random outcome.

Let me explain with a simple example.

I have a bag with 10 balls in it. All the balls are number 1 to 10. I blindfold you and get you to select a ball. There is an equal chance of you pulling a 3 out of the bag. And because you were blindfold and couldn't have known what ball you were picking out, the outcome is random. Right?

Now I give you a bag with 12 balls in it. Ten of the balls are numbered 1 to 10, but there are an extra two balls both with the number 3 on then. You're still blindfolded, so your pick is still random, but now you have a higher chance of picked the number 3.

This is exactly how slots work... not every prize is distributed evenly... it can't be. But the outcome is still randomly determined. Using the ball example, after every spin of the slot, all the balls are put back in the bag and the next game, another random draw happens to get the result.

Does that make sense? Please feel free to ask any other questions this throws up if you still aren't sure or don't believe they are random and feel free to add further explanation as to why you feel they are not random if this doesn't dispel that myth.

 

[steveh35]

If you get a choice in a bonus feature ie on Thunderstruck II will you get the same result whichever bonus you pick? if you get one of the bonuses where you can pick for cash amounts does it make any difference which options you pick?

If you get a free spins game and leave it for 5 or 10 mins before playing will you get a different result or is it like pressing the spin button it will the result be determined when you actually play it?

 

[trancemonkey]

If you get a choice in a bonus feature ie on Thunderstruck II will you get the same result whichever bonus you pick? if you get one of the bonuses where you can pick for cash amounts does it make any difference which options you pick?

If you get a free spins game and leave it for 5 or 10 mins before playing will you get a different result or is it like pressing the spin button it will the result be determined when you actually play it?

Where you have a choice, like on TS2, all for different features will have exactly the same average win. They won't necessarily have the same volatility though...

On your second question... depends how the provider has written the game logic... most games will determine the outcome of each free spins when it happens. Some I've known to determine all the free spins at the start and pass it to the client in one big chunk but I think that's far rarer nowadays....

 

[slotter999]

Put simply, slots ARE random.

I'd like to revisit that statement in many years time. I understand why you can make that statement but I'm not convinced flaws don't exist in the pseudo random code.

I have some questions:-

1.) Regarding bet sizes having no impact on payout. Bloodsuckers mobile is documented as having a bug which resulted in low payouts on high stakes. What possible explanation could there be for a bug like this existing if stake size is irrelevant?

2.) How long does a monte Carlo sim take for 10bio spins?

3.) Which slot machine you've worked on the production of is your proudest achievement?

4.) I understand the IP for a slot is the sum of all its parts I.e. artwork, maths engine etc. Is it actually possible to IP the maths model on its own right? If yes, are you aware of any companies doing this?

5.) What are your predictions for slots over the next 10 years and the next big thing?

Cheers

 

[trancemonkey]

Answers inline below

I'd like to revisit that statement in many years time. I understand why you can make that statement but I'm not convinced flaws don't exist in the pseudo random code.
The Mersenne-Twister is industry standard and the code is always checked and verified by 3rd party test houses...
I have some questions:-

1.) Regarding bet sizes having no impact on payout. Bloodsuckers mobile is documented as having a bug which resulted in low payouts on high stakes. What possible explanation could there be for a bug like this existing if stake size is irrelevant?

It's a bug - bug's happen. Could have been an array overflow, a pointer being stamped on - there are many explanations for bugs. Don't read too much in to it...

2.) How long does a monte Carlo sim take for 10bio spins?

On our farm, about 4 hours for a simple game - for more complex games, this can be upwards of 20 hours

3.) Which slot machine you've worked on the production of is your proudest achievement?

Good question - i really like the way Fabric 4 (currently exclusive to William Hill) ended up, however i think i could have done a much better job on the maths. So production wise and feature wise, i like it - but i think i made the maths way to volatile. Shamrock Lock has done very well as a kind of mid-tech fruit game crossover - much better than I expected. Not on a lot of sites as it's an Inspired game, but it's on Coral's and Bet365 and a few others. I will hopefully have some slots at G2E in Vegas this year that i've worked on for IGT and i'm really excited about them

4.) I understand the IP for a slot is the sum of all its parts I.e. artwork, maths engine etc. Is it actually possible to IP the maths model on its own right? If yes, are you aware of any companies doing this?

Well, the whole game is the IP. Maths is a part of that. You don't officially IP anything - IP is whatever your company produces.

5.) What are your predictions for slots over the next 10 years and the next big thing?

Another million dollar question - the problem with the slots world is that players don't actually like change that much. When we try new and different things, they tend to have limited success if any. Thunderkick have shown that slots don't have to have reels to survive, and this is a really good thing - but whether this takes hold on a larger scale remains to be seen. Technology will be the biggest factor in what happens - VR might eventually take off... Gonzo's Quest by NetEnt at ICE was the best implementation yet BUT it's still niche, and i'm not sure of the benefit for slot games. Maybe for roulette it could work as you could virtually place your chips with a live dealer.

On a slightly different note - i think e-sports, and betting on it as becoming huge over the next 5 to 10 years.

Cheers

 

[BananaCognac]

Thanks for the straight up answers - whether well received or not.

My Q is in regards to land based casinos.

The popular 'myth' is that you have a better chance of winning - i.e leaving the casino with more $$$ then when you entered - if you play slots/pokies with a higher coin denomination.

For example -- here is Australia - Aristocrat pokies rule the roost and one of the more popular games is Lucky 88.

I have personally played this slot 500 plus times since early 2014.

Hyperthetically speaking---if you were to roll up to a land based casino with a bankroll of $500 - would you play a slot with a 1c denom or higher - being 2c, 5c, 10, 20c, 50c and $1.

 

[Jono777]

Hey Harry - I've come back to your question because it's an important and often misunderstood one.

Firstly please discount social gaming slots, as these are quite often not random... mainly because they don't need to be.... also games such as Avalon II and VGB are arguably doing some sort of compensation so what I'm about to say may not 100% apply to them, but DOES apply to 99.9% of trustworthy game suppliers and games.

Put simply, slots ARE random. But the easy mistake it to confuse the random selection of an outcome with a random outcome.

Let me explain with a simple example.

I have a bag with 10 balls in it. All the balls are number 1 to 10. I blindfold you and get you to select a ball. There is an equal chance of you pulling a 3 out of the bag. And because you were blindfold and couldn't have known what ball you were picking out, the outcome is random. Right?

Now I give you a bag with 12 balls in it. Ten of the balls are numbered 1 to 10, but there are an extra two balls both with the number 3 on then. You're still blindfolded, so your pick is still random, but now you have a higher chance of picked the number 3.

This is exactly how slots work... not every prize is distributed evenly... it can't be. But the outcome is still randomly determined. Using the ball example, after every spin of the slot, all the balls are put back in the bag and the next game, another random draw happens to get the result.

Does that make sense? Please feel free to ask any other questions this throws up if you still aren't sure or don't believe they are random and feel free to add further explanation as to why you feel they are not random if this doesn't dispel that myth.

THANK YOU!

That has been exactly my thoughts on how these slots work.

The only problem I've had since joining CM is putting it in to words which others can easily understand

Great stuff!

 

[Captain Rizk]

THANK YOU!

That has been exactly my thoughts on how these slots work.

The only problem I've had since joining CM is putting it in to words which others can easily understand

Great stuff!

Jono, to illustrate this a little further, please see the diagram below. It is an old image and it is based on a 3 reel machine (hence why it takes the next 3 numbers from the RNG - 1 for each reel). The numbers used are far bigger these days and obviously with online slots you are not constricted by space by the size available for a physical reel but the underlying process still holds I believe - but I am sure that Trancemonkey can confirm better than I.

 

[Tourettesguy]

I have a few questions about the randomness of slots. Been playing since 1999 and seen so mush strange things among most softwares.

1. Is a slot really random when you do 4000 spins on ex. €2 bet and you get no free or bigger win and then you lower the bet you instantly get free spin or a huge win that differs alot from previsous 4000 spins? Ive seen this phenomena soo many times, and also when you reaching a zero balance the slot gets little bit crazy...lots of scatters are coming(not always triggering free spins though) on each and every spins. And often on last spin you hit free spins or a bigger win.

2. After a new deposit and continue playing same slot free spins and more variation of wins comes...the slot dont feel same as it did at previous depoist/session, why? IS ther esomething pre-programmed to loose up a slot after new deposit?

3. Something I noticed a few years ago....playing som slot softwares in no download version, like at Video Slots...for ex. Williams Interactive, BTG and som others(not tried all softwares) I notice after I hit "spin" button I instantly can see if I will get a free spin or bonus feature depending of the delay between hitting spin button and when the first reel stops.. IF reel 1 stops almost instantly the spin will trigger free spins or bonus. Its like the free spins are pre-downloaded and after a certain spin the slot already decided that next spin will be a free spin bonus spin aslong I dont change bet or something...What is goin on? Long time ago playing NetEnt it was the opposite, the longer delay the bigger win was coming...like the software needed extra time to calculate upcoming win because of all paylines...

4. Playing Play´n Go´s Gemix slot....you fill the pattern to next level always in almost same amount of spins...its rare if it takes more than 100 spins...never 200...if it was radnom it could take 5000 spins but it will never happen, it IS something that grant you levelup...never any changes....and very often you get the biggest win + supercharged on that last spin that release the world bonus...

HAve many question but start with this...

 

[trancemonkey]

Answers inline below:

I have a few questions about the randomness of slots. Been playing since 1999 and seen so mush strange things among most softwares.

1. Is a slot really random when you do 4000 spins on ex. €2 bet and you get no free or bigger win and then you lower the bet you instantly get free spin or a huge win that differs alot from previsous 4000 spins? Ive seen this phenomena soo many times, and also when you reaching a zero balance the slot gets little bit crazy...lots of scatters are coming(not always triggering free spins though) on each and every spins. And often on last spin you hit free spins or a bigger win.

Yes - again though it's about perception and personal experience. You don't remember very easily all the time the opposite happened... you got a feature really quickly, changed bet and then didn't get a feature for ages... but i guarantee you it happens...

2. After a new deposit and continue playing same slot free spins and more variation of wins comes...the slot dont feel same as it did at previous depoist/session, why? IS ther esomething pre-programmed to loose up a slot after new deposit?

No - think about it this way... if you made a slot "looser" after a deposit, you would (as an operator) be running the risk of people taking advantage of that.

One thing I will mention at this juncture - social casinos can manipulate the game based on your balance, games since last big win, etc.. Why? Because they can - there is no cash to be lost by them doing this - if you're going to spend, you'll lose eventually and spend anyway, so some do absolutely manipulate the games based on all sorts of things. They are not gambling and don't fall under the same laws.

3. Something I noticed a few years ago....playing som slot softwares in no download version, like at Video Slots...for ex. Williams Interactive, BTG and som others(not tried all softwares) I notice after I hit "spin" button I instantly can see if I will get a free spin or bonus feature depending of the delay between hitting spin button and when the first reel stops.. IF reel 1 stops almost instantly the spin will trigger free spins or bonus. Its like the free spins are pre-downloaded and after a certain spin the slot already decided that next spin will be a free spin bonus spin aslong I dont change bet or something...What is goin on? Long time ago playing NetEnt it was the opposite, the longer delay the bigger win was coming...like the software needed extra time to calculate upcoming win because of all paylines...

So this one baffles me too - it happens on most WMS games - certainly the older ones... i haven't seen it happen on some of the newer Sci Games Shufflemaster stuff (same company) i.e Fortune 88. I can only assume it's in there by design or it's shoddy programming... which ever it is, they must know about it and have chosen not to do anything. When i'm playing their games it's the ONLY thing i look for now... If you play on SkyVegas (for example), watch your balance during the game cycle - when your balance decreases, the spin result is known (i.e the client knows the outcome to show you) but

4. Playing Play´n Go´s Gemix slot....you fill the pattern to next level always in almost same amount of spins...its rare if it takes more than 100 spins...never 200...if it was radnom it could take 5000 spins but it will never happen, it IS something that grant you levelup...never any changes....and very often you get the biggest win + supercharged on that last spin that release the world bonus...

I think i've only ever played this game once - so i'm not au fait with it. It would depend on what the actual feature frequency the game was designed to have as to how volatile it could be... a feature that happens ever 100 games (on average) is unlikely to go more than 1000 games without a feature. Of course it's not impossible.

Here's a picture of some quick code i wrote:



As you can see, i wrote some code that would try as many times as it needed to to pick 1 from 100. When it finally picked a 1 recorded how many attempts it took IF the number of attempts was higher than the previous amount. It repeated this process 1 million times.

As you can see the maximum number of attempts in 1,000,000 cycles 1391.

I did the same thing for 10,000,000 cycles and got 1662 - i'm not doing more than that as it would take too long to run

The point is, your assertion it could take 5,000 spins when you say it normally takes 100 isn't true.

EDIT: I've also edited the code to record the ranges of number of games at a 100 feature frequency:




HAve many question but start with this...

I hope that answers the majority of your questions... if you have any more, please let me know

 

[SPOPPLE]

Slots are random, I do a bit of amateur programming/coding and have looked into it before, tried to help out with some bitcoin related slots so I have a very BASIC understanding of how slots work butmy issue is, are some providers allowing tampering so to speak.

Obviously the servers need to be accessed and you cant do anything clientside but I really wouldnt put it past some providers, the amount of dodgy casinos around there must be some who intimately know certain providers. As with anything in this world humans are corrupt so who the fuck knows what goes on.

I find most slots to be random enough for me BUT the streaks some slots go on can really piss people off, I played netents lights sporadically, 100 spins here or there and it never ever gave me a thing. Yet a few months back at £4.50 a spin, I managed almost £4,000 of profit within about 150 spins, every like 20 spins I was hitting near a full screen of a good symbol. Since then played it a few more times and zippo, lost £1,000 on it other day in 10 minutes at £2ish a spin, that randomness is questionable to me as it literally payed like a sieve.

And even fucking worse, this was REALLY fucking rigged, I was playing super nudge and hit this

3 TIMES IN 8 SPINS, that was so rigged...in my favor of course but hitting something 3 times in a row almost that I had never hit in hundreds of sessions on it previously means something is definitely not right. I didnt mind obviously £3600 up in a minute but is this like a jackpot being spat out essentially? was it something akin to that, i.e someone has to win x amount by x time and I was the one who happened to be playing it when it had to be won?

 

[trancemonkey]

Slots are random, I do a bit of amateur programming/coding and have looked into it before, tried to help out with some bitcoin related slots so I have a very BASIC understanding of how slots work butmy issue is, are some providers allowing tampering so to speak.

Obviously the servers need to be accessed and you cant do anything clientside but I really wouldnt put it past some providers, the amount of dodgy casinos around there must be some who intimately know certain providers. As with anything in this world humans are corrupt so who the fuck knows what goes on.

I find most slots to be random enough for me BUT the streaks some slots go on can really piss people off, I played netents lights sporadically, 100 spins here or there and it never ever gave me a thing. Yet a few months back at £4.50 a spin, I managed almost £4,000 of profit within about 150 spins, every like 20 spins I was hitting near a full screen of a good symbol. Since then played it a few more times and zippo, lost £1,000 on it other day in 10 minutes at £2ish a spin, that randomness is questionable to me as it literally payed like a sieve.

And even fucking worse, this was REALLY fucking rigged, I was playing super nudge and hit this

3 TIMES IN 8 SPINS, that was so rigged...in my favor of course but hitting something 3 times in a row almost that I had never hit in hundreds of sessions on it previously means something is definitely not right. I didnt mind obviously £3600 up in a minute but is this like a jackpot being spat out essentially? was it something akin to that, i.e someone has to win x amount by x time and I was the one who happened to be playing it when it had to be won?

I'm sure there are some extremely dodgy providers out of all the ones out there but I don't know of any.

As for getting 3 top symbol wins in 8 spins... i can't comment on whether that is rigged game or not. My guess is you were lucky.

It's human nature to look for patterns where there are none - to call foul when they have an unbelievable run of good or bad luck. "Random games can't do that" they say....
Random games can do anything - i've been doing them for many years and even i sometimes think my OWN GAMES are rigged when they behave like tossers! And i know 100% they aren't!

 

[fernandohs]

For jackpots spread across multiple sites, the provider pays it (to the site of course, which then pays you)... NetEnt mega fortune would be an example of this.

If the jackpot is local to the casino then the casino pays it directly.

Hope that answers your question.

Oh! is very good for casino, because the amount go for him and player play he

 

[SPOPPLE]

I'm sure there are some extremely dodgy providers out of all the ones out there - but i don't have any examples (apart from Avalon II and Vikings Go Berzerk which have been discussed on here and may be doing something strange).

As for getting 3 top symbol wins in 8 spins... i can't comment on whether that is rigged game or not. My guess is you were lucky.

It's human nature to look for patterns where there are none - to call foul when they have an unbelievable run of good or bad luck. "Random games can't do that" they say....
Random games can do anything - i've been doing them for many years and even i sometimes think my OWN GAMES are rigged when they behave like tossers! And i know 100% they aren't!

Oh yes I agree completely with your points, there is nothing more crazy than randomness. The problem with the crazy aspect though is alot of players will see the negative patterns. I myself dont care, I am basically accepting a loss when I click the deposit button haha.

Do you have any conflict of interests then or things like that? like how you cant play in a certain casino because you work there type of thing?

 

[trancemonkey]

Oh yes I agree completely with your points, there is nothing more crazy than randomness. The problem with the crazy aspect though is alot of players will see the negative patterns. I myself dont care, I am basically accepting a loss when I click the deposit button haha.

Do you have any conflict of interests then or things like that? like how you cant play in a certain casino because you work there type of thing?

There is a big long list of casinos we are not allowed to play in, yeah.... mostly in the US IIRC... Thing is, as all the games are random, we don't have an advantage over anyone else, but i think it's more just that they don't want someone from IGT winning the Mega Jackpots! Wouldn't look good in the media right

 

[Deeplay]

In terms of online only, most people would say that Starburst and Twin Spin have two of the most successful stalwarts of the online world, although NetEnt have struggled to repeat this success, and the reskin of Twin Spin was a relative flop...

)

First off brilliant thread and really appreciated you taking the time to answer the slew of questions

heres mine , Twin Spin ... one of my fave slots before the re-design - and I can see why it has been a flop as i know many people who dont play this half as much or not at all now - i hardly touch the vile beast these days. But I know slots are random and that yes as a human I see patterns where they are none, But Twin Spin do you think anything was changed with the way the payouts are served up ? It seems like less volatile now and then again can go 20 or more spins without even a 1x bet win ... all of this since the re-design.

Im not someone who is into the "its rigged I tell ya" conspiracy theories of online gaming, and believe it is as random as we can get it ... but something about this game just did not feel right since its relaunch. So can a slot be re-programmed to pay out less / less features but somehow keep the overall RTP the same ?

hope my question makes sense ha as I almost lost it myself trying to type what I wanna ask

 

[trancemonkey]

First off brilliant thread and really appreciated you taking the time to answer the slew of questions

heres mine , Twin Spin ... one of my fave slots before the re-design - and I can see why it has been a flop as i know many people who dont play this half as much or not at all now - i hardly touch the vile beast these days. But I know slots are random and that yes as a human I see patterns where they are none, But Twin Spin do you think anything was changed with the way the payouts are served up ? It seems like less volatile now and then again can go 20 or more spins without even a 1x bet win ... all of this since the re-design.

Im not someone who is into the "its rigged I tell ya" conspiracy theories of online gaming, and believe it is as random as we can get it ... but something about this game just did not feel right since its relaunch. So can a slot be re-programmed to pay out less / less features but somehow keep the overall RTP the same ?

hope my question makes sense ha as I almost lost it myself trying to type what I wanna ask

What redesign... have I missed something?

And yes of course it can be mathematically redresigned to hit the same RTP. Most of my days doing maths design are about finding ways to make the game play well but at the required RTP.

 

[Tourettesguy]

Thanks for the long replay Trancemonkey, but I cant agree with answer 1 and 2... Playing looong time at one bet the slot always act different instantly if you change bet...and its whne you have thse loong sessions without any big win or feature the slot expose how not random it is...sooo many times the slot have instantly triggered a feature on last spin, often when you play you last 15 cent with less paylines...seen many crazy win here on the forum that is on last spin or almost zero balance...and that is only big wins...other are not posted here ofcoarse. Doent matter ifd the slot is on good or bad mood..if its on good mood i pay randomly...periods of many features which pay low and high...and periods with less good paying features or few of them...but when you do somehting after 4000 spins and see an instant change in behavour of the slot something must be "rigged"...its like the slot lost connection to the server that records gamestats anfd more...and whne you change bet the slot send a signal to server adn reconnects and gamestats are refreshed and slot feels "oh here is very bad payout on this account, trigger free spins instatnly!"
For ex at Video Slots you often are logged off from casino, but still online playing a slot...got me suspisous everytime about payout...

And often when I for ex have €0,07 left in balance...I go to Book of Dead playing 7 paylines 1c each...but a box comes up saying not enough balance...I have to lower to €0,06 bet...and then anohter spin at 0,01...why?? Its like I have €0,0699999999999 balance...which may fu**ed up the payout calulation during play....causeing me to lose..I believe... For some reason the balance gets fu**ed up after long time playing...is that some kind of protection of the slot/casino if a player happen to stay at an exact betsize and game just winning and winning....and this change in balance decimals will prevent endelss winnings? Notices this on BTGs Bonanza lately too....playing long and if I have 60cent left I have to lower to 40cent bet first then 20 cent bet to be able to reach zero balance.

And 2´nd answer...if I deposit €100 and lose and redeposit the slot allows itself to loose up when the casino already earned €100...not saying I will win one next depoist but for ex free spins often comes back instantly and the slot more random at beginning but ofcoarse it may get tight very fast....but that first change after new deposit I feel is not random...its programmed to do so....its too common to be random in my opinion..


Another thing... RTG casinos...download version...a few years ago and back to beginning of RTG Real series slots...Cleopatra(first game) you could follow the symbols on the reels as they slowed down and may trigger free spins or feature...very exciting and if you knew the game you could see depending of where the reel started to slow down if the last scatter would land on screen trigger feature...loved the excitment...but nowadays its not possible, spinning reels are just fake graphic illution...symbols landing on screen has nothing to do with the slow spinning reel...and you dont know if youre even close to hit the triggering scatter...I think its quite boring.... What did that change, you know?

 

[Ork]

Pseudobullshit

Still trying to get my head around how an essentially fixed payout over time can be described as random.

Pseudorandom sounds more romantic than fixed or rigged I guess?

 

[trancemonkey]

Sorry - this was an accidental repost...

 

[Deeplay]

What redesign... have I missed something?

And yes of course it can be mathematically redresigned to hit the same RTP. Most of my days doing maths design are about finding ways to make the game play well but at the required RTP.

What i meant was when it was switched to the html4 format. The game play seemed to have changed since then. Hope that makes sense )

 

[trancemonkey]

What i meant was when it was switched to the html4 format. The game play seemed to have changed since then. Hope that makes sense )

I would be immensely surprised if they changed the maths at all... it was a very successful game... only a fool would change a succesful game...